The Grave Danger of the Catholic-Based "Purgatory" Theory!

[loveabounds]

I never said anything of the sort. Purgatory, by definition, is a place of torment, punishment, often called by the Catholic Church the same as hell only not forever. That's what Purgatory is. I've never said that I think God is a sadist, however, I'd still like to know what anyone who believes in Purgatory thinks is served by subjecting people--who are already forgiven of their sins--to a long spell in a place of torment. THAT makes no sense to me.



Why and who says so? It's a matter of our standing with God, not a scab.

The more I read these posts Albion, the more and more I pray for them. It's obvious that the one verse they like to use to promote the idea of their purgatory is taken out of context, believing that one must go through "fire" after all that Christ suffered for us. Once again, they miss God's character and Christ's purpose.

 

[Rhamiel]

Sure. The punishment of the damned is forever. Purgatory is only torment until the end of Earthly time. Whoopee.

Are looking at Purgatory as punishment?
also the idea that it will last till the end of earthly time, you mean like for everyone? that is not really a teaching of the Church...

 

[steve_bakr]

Sure. The punishment of the damned is forever. Purgatory is only torment until the end of Earthly time. Whoopee.

You're not understanding the Church's teaching on Purgatory.

 

[Albion]

You're not understanding the Church's teaching on Purgatory.

Easy to say, steve, but you haven't in any way shown that the church has changed its beliefs concerning Purgatory.

 

[Albion]

Are looking at Purgatory as punishment?

Purgatory IS punishment.

That is its purpose.

I know that, when answering critics, the idea is to soften the blow as much as possible because modern people do not like to hear what Purgatory is all about. It's like the old Communist regimes who didn't have concentration camps but instead "reeducation centers." It's all in the packaging, or at least that's the hope.

also the idea that it will last till the end of earthly time, you mean like for everyone?

No, not for everyone, but for many. At least that is what theologians and some of the visionary saints that the RCC takes as authoritative said. The "time" spent in Purgatory of course varies according to the number and gravity of sins committed during their lifetimes. But it could last until the end of Earthly time.

 

[loveabounds]

"The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned." (CCC, 1031)

The catholic church deceives it's followers by claiming that purgatory exists. The only Scripture that anyone here has produced in support of it is 1 Cor 3:15. One verse....and it is easily put back into context when one reads the verses prior to it. 1 Cor 3:12-15 explain that our WORKS pass through fire...not the individual. It's about works we have done in this world. Good works will be rewarded, bad works will be consumed by the fire and not rewarded. Nowhere does it state in Scripture that we need to pray for the dead, do good works for the dead, or anything else, in order to get them out of a "state" or place called purgatory and into heaven. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that what Christ did was not good enough to cover all our sins!!

Furthermore:

2 Cor 5:6-8 states "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

Phil 1:23 says "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far"

Both show that when we leave this world, we are immediately with Jesus. There is no place, no state, that we go through.

The catholic teachings are not biblical. They add to Scripture, which God warns about doing.

 

[loveabounds]

"Purgatory IS punishment.

That is its purpose.

I know that, when answering critics, the idea is to soften the blow as much as possible because modern people do not like to hear what Purgatory is all about. It's like the old Communist regimes who didn't have concentration camps but instead "reeducation centers." It's all in the packaging, or at least that's the hope."

That is called pride, and it's causing them to avoid truth.

 

[Rhamiel]

"Purgatory IS punishment.

That is its purpose.

I know that, when answering critics, the idea is to soften the blow as much as possible because modern people do not like to hear what Purgatory is all about. It's like the old Communist regimes who didn't have concentration camps but instead "reeducation centers." It's all in the packaging, or at least that's the hope."

That is called pride, and it's causing them to avoid truth.

why do you think it is punishment? simply because it is unplesant?
the name of it is Purgatory, from the very begining the idea has been the purgation, the removal of sin, done by the Grace of God
many differant Christians have had differant ideas about it, but the teaching of the Church have always been relitivly simple

 

[Albion]

why do you think it is punishment? simply because it is unplesant?

For one thing, that is what the Catholic Church says about it, and she is the institutiton that gave us Purgatory. I find it ironic that we Protestants are always having New Advent or Catholic Answers or some other website thrown at us whenever there's a debate. The attitude is always "There. That's the real story."...until the Catholics themselves find the official teaching of their church not to their liking. One well-known poster has explained that he can't give a personal opinion on various issues because he is obligated to be in step with the Catholic Church--until it comes to Purgatory, that is, where he says he prefers to think it will be "fine."

Well now, I invite you to go to New Advent where you will find that Purgatory is a place of PUNISHMENT for sins previously committed.

And if you choose not to do that, here's an excerpt from New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia. The following is the wording of the Church herself, not an editor or contributor's explanation. --


"That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3).The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God."

 

[steve_bakr]

For one thing, that is what the Catholic Church says about it, and she is the institutiton that gave us Purgatory. I find it ironic that we Protestants are always having New Advent or Catholic Answers or some other website thrown at us whenever there's a debate. The attitude is always "There. That's the real story."...until the Catholics themselves find the official teaching of their church not to their liking. One well-known poster has explained that he can't give a personal opinion on various issues because he is obligated to be in step with the Catholic Church--until it comes to Purgatory, that is, where he says he prefers to think it will be "fine."

Well now, I invite you to go to New Advent where you will find that Purgatory is a place of PUNISHMENT for sins previously committed.

And if you choose not to do that, here's an excerpt from New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia--

"That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3).The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God."

Albion,

Yes, the traditional Catholic view is that Purgatory involves the temporal rather than eternal punishment of sins commited after Baptism. And, admittedly, some of what I said about Purgatory was my own opinion, but I don't think it is inconsistent with the CCC.

I think it is significant that the CCC does not explicitly say that Purgatory is a place of punishment, while I'm sure that the Baltimore Catechism probably does. Instead, the CCC--which Pope John Paul II said in the Apostolic Constitution was prepared "following the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council"--concentrates on the positive aspect of Purgatory: purification.

 

[Albion]

Albion,

Yes, the traditional Catholic view is that Purgatory involves the temporal rather than eternal punishment of sins commited after Baptism. And, admittedly, some of what I said about Purgatory was my own opinion, but I don't think it is inconsistent with the CCC.

I think it is significant that the CCC does not explicitly say that Purgatory is a place of punishment, while I'm sure that the Baltimore Catechism probably does. Instead, the CCC--which Pope John Paul II said in the Apostolic Constitution was prepared "following the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council"--concentrates on the positive aspect of Purgatory: purification.

All right. The Catechism is a brief overview. That's all it intends to be. Nevertheless, this is not a matter of personal opinion in which the individual gets to depart for once from what an Ecumenical Council and Church Fathers have stated--the very things that have been argued by Catholic posters are authoritative, true, infallible, and unchanging. If so, it's the same with this issue no less than other ones that don't make you as uncomfortable. I don't hear you saying that the Eucharist might be an analogy and it's not really flesh but it makes us think of Christ.....

 

[loveabounds]

"the name of it is Purgatory, from the very begining the idea has been the purgation, the removal of sin, done by the Grace of God"

Can you truly not see what a slap to Christ's face, that belief is???? This was the very purpose for Jesus's coming, suffering, and death!!

Nothing else needs to be done!

My heart hurts for Jesus when I read stuff like that! And for those who believe what you have posted.

 

[loveabounds]

"And, admittedly, some of what I said about Purgatory was my own opinion"

Hence the problem with the catholic church, as well.

When people start relying on their own understanding, interjecting their own opinions, beliefs stray far from truth.

 

[steve_bakr]

All right. The Catechism is a brief overview. That's all it intends to be. Nevertheless, this is not a matter of personal opinion in which the individual gets to depart for once from what an Ecumenical Council and Church Fathers have stated--the very things that have been argued by Catholic posters are authoritative, true, infallible, and unchanging. If so, it's the same with this issue no less than other ones that don't make you as uncomfortable. I don't hear you saying that the Eucharist might be an analogy and it's not really flesh but it makes us think of Christ.....

While the CCC contains some overviews, at 756 pages I find it to be an amazingly comprehensive document. Their are briefer documents, such as the Compendium, but I prefer the CCC.

What I said about metaphor was in reference to the term "fire of purification", because, as the CCC srates about Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are states of being rather than places. "This biblical expression (ie, "Who art in Heaven") does not mean a place ("space"), but a way of being" (CCC, 2794)

BTW, please tell me what I've said that is not in harmony with the CCC, and I will retract it. As I told loveabounds, my understanding is that we are allowed to have opinions, so long as we strive to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church. But, I will be careful about expressing my opinion in the future, since it seems to have presented somewhat of a stumbling block to at least two Protestants here.

 

[loveabounds]

"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth"

John 17:17

 

[steve_bakr]

"And, admittedly, some of what I said about Purgatory was my own opinion"

Hence the problem with the catholic church, as well.

When people start relying on their own understanding, interjecting their own opinions, beliefs stray far from truth.

Thank you for your admonition to cling to the teachings of the Church. It is our goal to form our conscience according to the teaching of the Catholic Church. But we are allowed to have opinions, so long as they do not conflict with her teachings.

 

[loveabounds]

Thank you for your admonition to cling to the teachings of the Church. It is our goal to form our conscience according to the teaching of the Catholic Church. But we are allowed to have opinions, so long as they do not conflict with her teachings.

r

Why is it that you are not concerned that your formed opinions as well as the teachings of the catholic church, conflict with the teachings in Scripture?

 

[steve_bakr]

r

Why is it that you are not concerned that your formed opinions as well as the teachings of the catholic church, conflict with the teachings in Scripture?

I am concerned about having opinions that are in harmony with the Catholic Church. As I said to Albion, tell me where I have strayed from the CCC, and I will retract what I said. The CCC chooses to present the positive aspect of Purgatory, which is purification. My "personal opinion" is that things will be "fine" in Purgatory, after the teaching of Julian of Norwich, who said, "All will be well, and all manner of things will be well." I am confident that the Lord has made Purgatory so that it will not be intolerable.

BTW, I just realized I misread your post. What teachings about Purgatory conflict with Scripture?

 

[loveabounds]

I am concerned about having opinions that are in harmony with the Catholic Church. As I said to Albion, tell me where I have strayed from the CCC, and I will retract what I said. The CCC chooses to present the positive aspect of Purgatory, which is purification. My "personal opinion" is that things will be "fine" in Purgatory, after the teaching of Julian of Norwich, who said, "All will be well, and all manner of things will be well." I am confident that the Lord has made Purgatory so that it will not be intolerable.

The problem isn't that your opinions are not in harmony with the catholic church, it's that they are not in harmony with Scripture, which is the only true word and instruction from God.

The Lord did NOT make purgatory....the catholic church did.

Again I'll ask....why isn't your concern that your opinions or the catholic church's, conflict with the Word of God???

 

[loveabounds]

Steve,

You post a quote from Julian of Norwich about confidence in purgatory, what say you about the confidence the Apostle Paul had when he states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, omitting any place or state of "purgatory??

"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" 2 Cor 5:8