The Grave Danger of the Catholic-Based "Purgatory" Theory!

[steve_bakr]

Opening a can of worms, I know, but.. Just so you know, you can avoid purgatory altogether if you rack up plenary indulgences. My favorite plenary indulgence is to renew my baptismal vows on the anniversary of my baptism and during the Easter Vigil. Theres also the promise of Divine Mercy Sunday Just sayin'

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Thanks. I pray the Rosary every day, too. Does that carry a plenary indulgence?

 

[Albion]

Thanks. I pray the Rosary every day, too. Does that carry a plenary indulgence?

He's right about a plenary indulgence taking care of all that you'd otherwise have coming in Purgatory, but the problem is you have to die before committing any more venial sins, which by their nature are committed by the average person every day. I'm fairly sure that the rosary doesn't confer a plenary indulgence; they're rarer than that. However, there are a number of promises that the Virgin is believed to have made for those who pray the rosary faithfully. There seem to be a lot of sodalities and websites dedicated to the rosary, so it should not be difficult to find out.

 

[Needing_Grace]

Thanks. I pray the Rosary every day, too. Does that carry a plenary indulgence?

You know, I just happen to have the Manual of Indulgences right here (yes, it's total geekery that I actually purchased one).

17 PRAYERS TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

§1 A plenary indulgence is granted to the faithful who
1º devoutly recite the Marian rosary in a church or oratory, or in a family, a religious community, or an association of the faithful, and in general when several of the faithful gather for some honest purpose;
2º devoutly join in the recitation of the rosary while it is being recited by the Supreme Pontiff and broadcast live by radio or television.
In other circumstances, the indulgence will be partial.

There is a note here saying that you don't have to do all 15 decades, just 5 (one set of mysteries) is enough.

The beauty of the Rosary is that it familiarized one with important events in the lives of our Lord and our Lady, especially with the new Luminous Mysteries (Baptism of the Lord/Wedding at Cana/Preaching the Kingdom/Transfiguration/Last Supper for those who don't know). That third one about "The Preaching of the Kingdom" really makes one have to dig into the Gospels in order to be able to meditate on them.

I wonder what people think when they realize that we're thinking about Jesus and what He's done for us when we pray the Rosary.

 

[Needing_Grace]

He's right about a plenary indulgence taking care of all that you'd otherwise have coming in Purgatory, but the problem is you have to die before committing any more venial sins, which by their nature are committed by the average person every day. I'm fairly sure that the rosary doesn't confer a plenary indulgence; they're rarer than that. However, there are a number of promises that the Virgin is believed to have made for those who pray the rosary faithfully. There seem to be a lot of sodalities and websites dedicated to the rosary, so it should not be difficult to find out.

Venial sins are forgiven when one blesses themselves with holy water, confesses them to God directly (we can do this for venial sins), receive communion, etc. There's a lot of ways to get rid of them.

And a plenary indulgence is actually not easy to get because of the requirements:

First, you must do whatever it is. Since most things that gain these indulgences are now common acts of piety and devotion (another includes doing the Stations of the Cross in a church - I know people who do this every day), the actual thing is meeting the other conditions, all of which but one are easy to accomplish as a good Catholic anyway.

The other requirements are making a good Confession (good thing every Catholic should do frequently anyways), receiving Holy Communion (another good thing we should want to do and do frequently), pray for the Pope and his intentions (an Our Father, Hail Mary and Gloria Patri suffice--again, it's always a good thing to pray for the Pope) and you must do this with a spirit of detachment from all sin. That last part is the hard part. That's what makes most indulgences partial.

Still, a rigorous prayer and sacramental life are what help strengthen us as we run towards our goal in Jesus Christ, so doing these things are good anyways, whether we're looking to get purgatory points or not (I'd prefer to get all the purgatory points I can, thanks, I have a feeling I desperately need them as Jesus has a LOT of work to do on me (because it's really all HIM)!

 

[steve_bakr]

Venial sins are forgiven when one blesses themselves with holy water, confesses them to God directly (we can do this for venial sins), receive communion, etc. There's a lot of ways to get rid of them.

And a plenary indulgence is actually not easy to get because of the requirements:

First, you must do whatever it is. Since most things that gain these indulgences are now common acts of piety and devotion (another includes doing the Stations of the Cross in a church - I know people who do this every day), the actual thing is meeting the other conditions, all of which but one are easy to accomplish as a good Catholic anyway.

The other requirements are making a good Confession (good thing every Catholic should do frequently anyways), receiving Holy Communion (another good thing we should want to do and do frequently), pray for the Pope and his intentions (an Our Father, Hail Mary and Gloria Patri suffice--again, it's always a good thing to pray for the Pope) and you must do this with a spirit of detachment from all sin. That last part is the hard part. That's what makes most indulgences partial.

Still, a rigorous prayer and sacramental life are what help strengthen us as we run towards our goal in Jesus Christ, so doing these things are good anyways, whether we're looking to get purgatory points or not (I'd prefer to get all the purgatory points I can, thanks, I have a feeling I desperately need them as Jesus has a LOT of work to do on me (because it's really all HIM)!

This is not related specifically to indulgences, but one of the prayers I try to do is the Liturgy of the Hours. There's even an app. for mobile phones.

 

[steve_bakr]

He's right about a plenary indulgence taking care of all that you'd otherwise have coming in Purgatory, but the problem is you have to die before committing any more venial sins, which by their nature are committed by the average person every day. I'm fairly sure that the rosary doesn't confer a plenary indulgence; they're rarer than that. However, there are a number of promises that the Virgin is believed to have made for those who pray the rosary faithfully. There seem to be a lot of sodalities and websites dedicated to the rosary, so it should not be difficult to find out.

Thanks. Needing_Grace also posted some good information about it. BTW, Interestingly, I found find out there is an Anglican form of the Rosary and I think there are Anglican prayer beads.

 

[Needing_Grace]

This is not related specifically to indulgences, but one of the prayers I try to do is the Liturgy of the Hours. There's even an app. for mobile phones.

I love the LotH. For those who don't know, the Liturgy of the Hours consists mostly Psalms and other scripture passages related to the day in the Church calendar. Catholics don't only revere the Scriptures, we don't just read the Scriptures (four sizable passages each Sunday at mass), we also pray the Word.

How many of the hours do you do? I'd like to at least do Lauds (Morning Prayer), Vespers (Evening Prayer) and Matins (Office of Readings) but its not easy for a layman to remember,,,

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[Albion]

Thanks. Needing_Grace also posted some good information about it. BTW, Interestingly, I found find out there is an Anglican form of the Rosary and I think there are Anglican prayer beads.

There actually is no official or generally-recognized Anglican Rosary, but many Anglo-Catholics use the Dominican Rosary. Inevitably, I suppose, some of them here and there came up with various prayer formats intended to adapt the traditional rosary for Anglican use, sometimes by dropping the last part of the Hail Mary, sometimes by adding something.

Anglican prayer beads are a fairly recent introduction from an Episcopal church in Texas. They are really quite unlike the rosary in that they are only a counting device, but the originator of the APB says that they are indebted to a number of different religious traditions.

 

[steve_bakr]

I love the LotH. For those who don't know, the Liturgy of the Hours consists mostly Psalms and other scripture passages related to the day in the Church calendar. Catholics don't only revere the Scriptures, we don't just read the Scriptures (four sizable passages each Sunday at mass), we also pray the Word.

How many of the hours do you do? I'd like to at least do Lauds (Morning Prayer), Vespers (Evening Prayer) and Matins (Office of Readings) but its not easy for a layman to remember,,,

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I have the same goal as you do: Morning Prayer, Office of Readings, and Evening Prayer.

 

[Athanasias]

If anyone is interested(May be surprised) to see a in depth biblical and historical study on the doctrine of purgatory from a Catholic theologian(Me) with a non Catholic. Please study the reason for purgatory I and the Church give here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7334575/

You may be surprised to find out how biblical and historical of a concept it actually is.

God bless you always!

Athanasias

 

[AHJE]

I intend this to be the last of some of the things pertaining to God that I'll post, write, and maybe even speak of in general, but anyways;

I had an epiphony of the commonly taught theory of Purgatory amongst Catholics in particular. For thsoe of you who don't know, Catholics teach that there is a place called Puragtaory where everyone gopes after they die, which is basically like a dark room where you kinda sit and wait, during which you have the option to repent and me sanctified in God.

The grave danger in this theory is that people will take advnatage of this, go on sinning all their lives, and think to wait to repent from sin and follow Christ until and when they reach purgatory, which is so wrong because God only gives these opportunitites to repent and follow him while we live on the earth at this present time. After we're dead and gone, we no longer have these opportunities, it'll be too late! So these people who think they can repent in purgatory are just jumping the gun so that they can live however they want all their lives, but when they're dead, they'll be disappointed to find that there is no purgatory, but they will wake on judgement day to be damned to hell. This false theory is blinding and decieving people to think that they're ok for now, and they can go on living their lives as they see fit and they can always wait to repent until later when they reach "purgatory" where they can then be purged of sin and saved then and there.

Dear apocalypticremedy999,

I'm sorry, but you are not speaking of the Divinely Revealed Truth of Purgatory which is part of the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are explaining what I call "Purfagory" ... Why "Purfagory"? Because it needs its own name in order that it might be distinguished from the TRUE PURGATORY which is from God.

The True Purgatory is reserved ONLY for the SAVED (those who die in God's grace). Therefore, there is no need for repentance in Purgatory. Purgatory is not a place for a second chance. Understood?

God bless you.

_________________________________________________________

The Roman Catholic Church is not a denomination.

Blessed are those who hear the voice of the Good Shepherd.

"And how shall they preach unless they be sent, ..."? (see Rom. 10:15)

 

[SQLservant]

Steve,

You post a quote from Julian of Norwich about confidence in purgatory, what say you about the confidence the Apostle Paul had when he states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, omitting any place or state of "purgatory??

"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" 2 Cor 5:8

This is an older post, but where in that verse (or anywhere in Scripture) does it say that to be away from the body IS to be at home with the Lord? I would prefer to be away from the office and home in bed right now, but that being away from the office = being at home in bed. Paul never said the two were equal, unless you've got some inside knowledge we don't, and if so, please share!

 

[Albion]

This is an older post, but where in that verse (or anywhere in Scripture) does it say that to be away from the body IS to be at home with the Lord? I would prefer to be away from the office and home in bed right now, but that being away from the office = being at home in bed. Paul never said the two were equal, unless you've got some inside knowledge we don't, and if so, please share!

Even the people who created Purgatory in the Middle Ages believed and said that God could not be IN Purgatory any more than he is in Hell. Absolute goodness and sin cannot co-habit, which is the concept that caused them to invent Purgatory in the first place. The only reasons we are against it are 1) it doesn't exist and 2) there is no reason to suppose that those who are saved and forgiven go into the next life still stained with sin.

 

[SQLservant]

Even the people who created Purgatory in the Middle Ages believed and said that God could not be IN Purgatory any more than he is in Hell.

Precisely why I asked where the idea that "away from the body = home with the Lord" came from in that verse. I wasn't speaking for or against Purgatory in that post, but was just wondering where that interpretation came from. It kind of makes things difficult in discussing the existence or non-existence of Purgatory when the same verse is understood to mean different things by each side of the debate.

 

[Albion]

Precisely why I asked where the idea that "away from the body = home with the Lord" came from in that verse. I wasn't speaking for or against Purgatory in that post, but was just wondering where that interpretation came from. It kind of makes things difficult in discussing the existence or non-existence of Purgatory when the same verse is understood to mean different things by each side of the debate.

Well, I agree with you that because Paul says "prefer," we cannot say with 100% certainty that he is defining the nature of the afterlife as having no places or states of being reserved for the redeemed but from which God is absent. BUT I believe that there is a very strong presumption there that when he says he'd prefer to be with the Lord, he is thinking that the only two possibilities for believers are life in the flesh or life in heaven.

 

[Athanasias]

Even the people who created Purgatory in the Middle Ages believed and said that God could not be IN Purgatory any more than he is in Hell. Absolute goodness and sin cannot co-habit, which is the concept that caused them to invent Purgatory in the first place. The only reasons we are against it are 1) it doesn't exist and 2) there is no reason to suppose that those who are saved and forgiven go into the next life still stained with sin.

I find this a interesting argument. I think is can be maintained that in the the beatific vision (the ultimate communion with God in heaven) there can be no sin(Rev 21:27) because he is present there in a different way. But if what you saying is true then God in a certain sense and our Lord Jesus could not have been here on earth admist such sin. But no Catholic teaches that.

 

[Abrahamist]

Purgatory is nothing but a notion that's a holdover from a time of torture chambers, inquisition, and heresy hunts that the church has to hold onto only because it claims to be the church that never changes.

Actually, Purgatory is a holdover from Judaism and predated Christianity.

The Rabbinical Jews believed in Jesus' time and still do today that when a person dies, their soul spends up to 12 months in a pre-Heaven condition where the soul is finally made perfect before entering Heaven.

They just didn't call it purgatory and still don't.

 

[Abrahamist]

"the name of it is Purgatory, from the very begining the idea has been the purgation, the removal of sin, done by the Grace of God"

Can you truly not see what a slap to Christ's face, that belief is???? This was the very purpose for Jesus's coming, suffering, and death!!

Nothing else needs to be done!

My heart hurts for Jesus when I read stuff like that! And for those who believe what you have posted.

What else needs to be done is we need to strive to live sinless lives.

Jesus did his part but we still have to do ours. We have to become willing vessels of His love and learn to hear his voice. We have to keep his commandments.

The ideal is we'll strive all our lives to become more Christlike in our character. Whatever is left undo in life is completed in death.

The real slap in the faith is to proclaim Jesus' love while not keeping His commandments.

 

[Abrahamist]

The problem isn't that your opinions are not in harmony with the catholic church, it's that they are not in harmony with Scripture, which is the only true word and instruction from God.

The Lord did NOT make purgatory....the catholic church did.

Again I'll ask....why isn't your concern that your opinions or the catholic church's, conflict with the Word of God???

The disagreement isn't so much over what the scripture actually teaches but over different interpretations of the scriptures.

I trust the Church's over my own because the Church is the entity that wrote, compiled and preserved the Christian Bible all the way until the present day. They are the authorities and the experts and so the Bible says what they say it means. If I disagree with the Church, then I disagree with scripture.

 

[Abrahamist]

C'mon guys. Roman Catholics blindly believe anything their church teaches without ever investigating any of it on their own, They will learn eventually there is no such thing as "Purgatory". So why not save your energy for some productive discussion like someone searching for salvation?

Actually, I'm a convert and the reason I converted was because when I researched stuff on my own, I found myself coming to the same answers as the RCC. They were right on so many things that I did understand that I began to trust them more with the things I didn't.