The Grave Danger of the Catholic-Based "Purgatory" Theory!

[Albion]

Its a hard concept for baptists, because we have different theology, but In Catholic theology there is two types of sins, venial and mortal. If one dies with mortal sin without repentance or the will to repent will not be saved, If one dies with no mortal sin or mortal sin with the will to go to confession they will be saved, but when you are saved you still have minor flaws on your souls, and these flaws are called venial sins. Venial sins are everyday sins like a white lie, a improper use of language, anger, etc., much of the time these sins are forgotten and go unrepented, and of course to enter the kingdom of god we must be perfect, as is god. So purgatory is a place to cleanse these sins off your body, logically the more unrepented sins, the longer stay you have in purgatory. Praying for the souls in purgatory helps speed up the process, or even avoid it as your family/friends are helping repent for the sins you committed to cleanse you faster.

Her point was that this is what Christ died to take care of. Why the reluctance to believe it?

I know this doesn't make sense to you because you believe in once saved always saved(for the most part baptists accept this, so i am making an assumption)

The reason it "doesn't make sense" has nothing to do with "Once saved always saved," There are more reformed Christians who do not accept OSAS who find Purgatory to be a terribly mistaken notion.

I don't mean to offend, but this is a basic teaching of the Catholic church(and the fault is of the poor catechism classes being held).

Yeh. Your rendition of it was fairly good, but I don't know why that would offend anyone. It's this unBiblical doctrine itself that's the problem.

 

[Needing_Grace]

I will NEVER understand what it was that Christ did NOT do good enough, that catholics believe there is something needs to be added, that there is something THEY need to do to get someone or themselves into heaven.

If that were the case, if there was something WE could do...there would be no need for Jesus in the first place.

Sad. Still praying that they see truth.

Look at this way. We are declared to be righteous on Christ's account (which Catholics don't deny, we just believe that God's word is effective, so we start the process of becoming righteous so long as we continue to say "fiat! I am willing" to God) when we are justified. Purgatory is about making us actually righteous, holy and pure so we can enter heaven by applying the merits of us to Christ directly and since "our God is a consuming fire," I think burning away what remains of the old Adam is gonna sting a bit. Still, its all on Christ.

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[loveabounds]

Its a hard concept for baptists, because we have different theology, but In Catholic theology there is two types of sins, venial and mortal. If one dies with mortal sin without repentance or the will to repent will not be saved, If one dies with no mortal sin or mortal sin with the will to go to confession they will be saved, but when you are saved you still have minor flaws on your souls, and these flaws are called venial sins. Venial sins are everyday sins like a white lie, a improper use of language, anger, etc., much of the time these sins are forgotten and go unrepented, and of course to enter the kingdom of god we must be perfect, as is god. So purgatory is a place to cleanse these sins off your body, logically the more unrepented sins, the longer stay you have in purgatory. Praying for the souls in purgatory helps speed up the process, or even avoid it as your family/friends are helping repent for the sins you committed to cleanse you faster.

I know this doesn't make sense to you because you believe in once saved always saved(for the most part baptists accept this, so i am making an assumption) and being an Ex Catholic I pray for u . I don't mean to offend, but this is a basic teaching of the Catholic church(and the fault is of the poor catechism classes being held). I would suggest you do some research on the real teachings of the church and why we believe in this dogma, Before you convert to another faith I would hope you understand the own teachings of your church and deem them wrong, but if you don't I would seriously consider not converting back, looking into it, and making a decision.

God bless , Atwood

(Ex-Agnostic, converted to Catholicism 6 months ago after months of research on Religion)

Atwood,

Did you read what you wrote???? One again, your faith is teaching you that there is more than one way to heaven and it depends on something that YOU must do, NOT what Jesus Christ has already done. Scripture says in John 10:1 "verily, verily I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber". And Jesus said HE was the door (John 10:9)

You're right....I don't understand how a religion who claims to base their faith on Jesus Christ, has so much man made anti-Scripture "tradition" that actually go against Him. Purgatory is not mentioned whatsoever in Scripture much less God saying there is something more that must be done to get into heaven.

Please don't pray for me because I left your faith. That will fall on deaf ears, since God only answers prayers that asked in humility and are requested with a right spirit.



BTW....I spent more of my life as a catholic than I have as a Bapist. I know what you believe. I don't make a move in my life without it being confirmed by God. I know in no uncertain terms that God led me right to the doors of my church!!!

 

[Atwood45]

Atwood,

Did you read what you wrote???? One again, your faith is teaching you that there is more than one way to heaven and it depends on something that YOU must do, NOT what Jesus Christ has already done. Scripture says in John 10:1 "verily, verily I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber". And Jesus said HE was the door (John 10:9)

You're right....I don't understand how a religion who claims to base their faith on Jesus Christ, has so much man made anti-Scripture "tradition" that actually go against Him. Purgatory is not mentioned whatsoever in Scripture much less God saying there is something more that must be done to get into heaven.

Please don't pray for me because I left your faith. That will fall on deaf ears, since God only answers prayers that asked in humility and are requested with a right spirit.



BTW....I spent more of my life as a catholic than I have as a Bapist. I know what you believe. I don't make a move in my life without it being confirmed by God. I know in no uncertain terms that God led me right to the doors of my church!!!

<edit>
Catholic teaching is biblical, I would link you to a good site explaining it but I can't because of my post count. (<edit> PM me and ill link you up.)

<edit>
Catholics believe Jesus is the door, I expressed this by showing you why Christ really came to the world and how if he didn't come all Catholic theology would be flawed aswel. Christ came to open the door to heaven, and thats what as Catholics believe. So I would encourage you to actually read my previous post before stating random facts that have no foundation such as "Catholics don't believe christ is the door" or "Manmade Traditions" or "Purgatory is not in bible". Though purgatory is not mentioned to a high degree there are verses that point to it, example:

"...for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that there is, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, the work of each one will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

I find many protestants arguments very impressive and understandable, but your arguments are very blunt ill quote you:

"You're right....I don't understand how a religion who claims to base their faith on Jesus Christ, has so much man made anti-Scripture "tradition" that actually go against Him. Purgatory is not mentioned whatsoever in Scripture much less God saying there is something more that must be done to get into heaven. "

If you don't have any understanding of the religion, how can u make the exclamation of it having man-made traditions when you know nothing about it, maybe open your mind and learn a little.<edit>

loveabounds, though I respect your attempts to back up your faith, I would prefer if you actually had a foundation to your arguments instead of coming to conclusions and making false accusations. Catholics do believe "Christ is the door" We believe that he opened the door to heaven, but Christ explained clearly in the bible how to enter that door, here are some verses of scripture that support this apparent "False Tradition" you believe to be purgatory, Justification by works, and The authority of the church.(See bottom of post)

So have a good day; maybe open a history book; read a little about the church fathers, find their thoughts on baptism, the Eucharist, Church Authority, Augustine has some good writings of purgatory from the early 5th century, so open your mind and heart and don't believe what those people that knock on your doors tell you. Its a fact, weaker catholics are converting to protestantism, well the strongest of protestants are converting to catholicism. A wise man once told me, "Those who know history cease to protestant" <edit>
God bless

1 Timothy 3:15

"If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."


James 2:24

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."




​

 

[Albion]

<edit> Catholic teaching is biblical,

Much of it, yes. I'm sure we all agree that the RCC believes in one God, that Jesus was his Son, etc. But it also has made dogma out of human traditions, as has been discussed here often.

<edit>

Though purgatory is not mentioned to a high degree there are verses that point to it, example:

"...for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that there is, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, the work of each one will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

That shows us Purgatory about as well as your garage proves something about the Great Pyramids. Yes, the word "fire" appears, but it could mean any number of things...and of course the other 95% of what makes Purgatory what it is is absent. So it is entirely fair to say that Purgatory is unBiblical. And that's not to mention the fact that if it IS Purgarory, the RCC somehow didn't know this for 1400 years (you say 500)! You see it in 1 Cor. 3:11-15 without any difficulty, but somehow the church itself couldn't.

So have a good day; maybe open a history book; read a little about the church fathers, find their thoughts on baptism, the Eucharist, Church Authority, Augustine has some good writings of purgatory from the early 5th century

From what you two have written, loveabounds was a Catholic longer than you have been, so I have a hard time seeing you as the second coming of Aquinas and she as totally uninformed about this matter.

The thread is about Purgatory so I won't comment about the contents of the rest of your dissertation.

 

[revrobor]

Look at this way. We are declared to be righteous on Christ's account (which Catholics don't deny, we just believe that God's word is effective, so we start the process of becoming righteous so long as we continue to say "fiat! I am willing" to God) when we are justified. Purgatory is about making us actually righteous, holy and pure so we can enter heaven by applying the merits of us to Christ directly and since "our God is a consuming fire," I think burning away what remains of the old Adam is gonna sting a bit. Still, its all on Christ.

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There is not ONE Scripture to support the idea of Purgatory. It is an invention of the RCC and it only deceives those who believe it. Jesus paid it all.

 

[Rhamiel]

There is not ONE Scripture to support the idea of Purgatory. It is an invention of the RCC and it only deceives those who believe it. Jesus paid it all.

first off, Amen brother, Jesus did pay all
secodly, there are parts in scripture that support the idea of Purgatory

 

[Needing_Grace]

There is not ONE Scripture to support the idea of Purgatory. It is an invention of the RCC and it only deceives those who believe it. Jesus paid it all.

There's only one sentence here that is based on theological truth. The rest is so much fluff.

There isn't just one Scripture passage that supports the idea of purgatory, there are several. The Church didn't invent the doctrine, it's an explanation of the last stage in the process of how one experiences the saving work of Christ on the individual.

In the end, Christ did it all and no good Catholic would deny it.

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[Albion]

first off, Amen brother, Jesus did pay all
secodly, there are parts in scripture that support the idea of Purgatory

Not really. There are several verses that might possibly be considered to have a slight connection, although not necessarily any; and this is seen as much too little to justify the creation of a doctrine that the faithful are supposed to accept and believe. Anyway, few Catholics believe in Purgatory any more, which is why the church is giving it a quiet death. In a couple of generations or less, no one will even have heard of Purgatory or the Treasury of Merit or Indulgences unless he's an afficionado of Church History.

 

[loveabounds]

There's only one sentence here that is based on theological truth. The rest is so much fluff.

There isn't just one Scripture passage that supports the idea of purgatory, there are several. The Church didn't invent the doctrine, it's an explanation of the last stage in the process of how one experiences the saving work of Christ on the individual.

In the end, Christ did it all and no good Catholic would deny it.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

catholics deny that Christ did it all BECAUSE they believe that there is somewhere else one needs to go, something else that a human needs to do, in order to get into heaven.

The belief of the catholic church is NOT an "explanation of the last stage in the process of how one experiences the saving work of Christ on the indivdual".....it's in direct violation of Scriptures.

Not one Scripture has been provided to support the idea of "purgatory". catholics love to shout that it's Biblically sound, but provide nothing that can not be shown as taking Scripture out of complete context of that Scripture's actual meaning. It's been disproven here several times. But foolish pride prevents people from acknowledging it. They would have to admit they were wrong.

However, this isn't a matter of being right or wrong. It's a matter of being Holy. One can not be Holy when one believes and practices things outside of what the Word of God tells us. The reason people object to man made up beliefs is because of their love for all people....not that they want to be right. We have an obligation to help people to be on the path of righteousness. I know personally, that when I step off and someone points it out to me, I'm grateful....not feeling like they have insulted me. Christians should never feel insulted when someone reaches out to them out of love, showing them the err's of their ways (which being imperfct people, we all err at times) in order to help them back on the right path. That is what myself and others are doing here....we love you enough, caring about your spiritual wellness, to point out Scripture that shows you have fallen into false teachings. It's not a religion that is being spoken out against....it's the enemy who wants us to steer away from truth. Battles in this world are not battles between flesh and flesh....but against the powers of darkness.

There was no "fluff" in his comment. It was truth. I encourage you to search for truth yourself, using Scripture as your tool, with proper exegesis and heumenautics. Eph 6:12 tells us that all Scriptures are used for learning, teaching and rebuffing. That's all we need.

 

[Albion]

catholics deny that Christ did it all BECAUSE they believe that there is somewhere else one needs to go, something else that a human needs to do, in order to get into heaven.

You are exactly right. While we may be gratified to hear a Catholic say that he accepts that Jesus did it all, that is not precisely what is meant. When that is said, it means that Jesus did all that--according to their church--is necessary for our own meritorious works then to be counted, as it were, by God in making his decision about our eternal destinies.

It is still a system of works-righteousness, but with the added factor that because of the Cross those works can be effective, whereas nothing would get a person into heaven prior to the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Rhamiel]

catholics deny that Christ did it all BECAUSE they believe that there is somewhere else one needs to go, something else that a human needs to do, in order to get into heaven.

The belief of the catholic church is NOT an "explanation of the last stage in the process of how one experiences the saving work of Christ on the indivdual".....it's in direct violation of Scriptures.

Not one Scripture has been provided to support the idea of "purgatory". catholics love to shout that it's Biblically sound, but provide nothing that can not be shown as taking Scripture out of complete context of that Scripture's actual meaning. It's been disproven here several times. But foolish pride prevents people from acknowledging it. They would have to admit they were wrong.

However, this isn't a matter of being right or wrong. It's a matter of being Holy. One can not be Holy when one believes and practices things outside of what the Word of God tells us. The reason people object to man made up beliefs is because of their love for all people....not that they want to be right. We have an obligation to help people to be on the path of righteousness. I know personally, that when I step off and someone points it out to me, I'm grateful....not feeling like they have insulted me. Christians should never feel insulted when someone reaches out to them out of love, showing them the err's of their ways (which being imperfct people, we all err at times) in order to help them back on the right path. That is what myself and others are doing here....we love you enough, caring about your spiritual wellness, to point out Scripture that shows you have fallen into false teachings. It's not a religion that is being spoken out against....it's the enemy who wants us to steer away from truth. Battles in this world are not battles between flesh and flesh....but against the powers of darkness.

There was no "fluff" in his comment. It was truth. I encourage you to search for truth yourself, using Scripture as your tool, with proper exegesis and heumenautics. Eph 6:12 tells us that all Scriptures are used for learning, teaching and rebuffing. That's all we need.

jesus said that blasphamy agianst the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next, do you think that means that some sins that are not blasphamy against the holy spirit will be forgiven in the next world?
the Bible also says that no unclean thing can enter heaven, are our sins not unclean? what about harmful habbits? addictions? failings?

 

[Albion]

jesus said that blasphamy agianst the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next, do you think that means that some sins that are not blasphamy against the holy spirit will be forgiven in the next world?

No, but it doesn't mean that there ever was a chance of them being forgiven, either. No forgiveness means no forgiveness.

Besides, it has absolutely nothing to do with Purgatory because:

1) Purgatory is a place where punishment for sins allegedly occurs. It is not believed by anyone to be a place where forgiveness occurs.

2) Purgatory, by the Catholic Church's explanation about what Purgatory is for and does, only pays for venial sins anyway--which blasphemy against the Holy Spirit certainly is not!

 

[Needing_Grace]

catholics deny that Christ did it all BECAUSE they believe that there is somewhere else one needs to go, something else that a human needs to do, in order to get into heaven.

Not do, experience. No one in purgatory is doing anything but experiencing it with the hope of heaven. They can't do anything to add or subtract. Those in purgatory are in God's hands having Christ's merits applied to them experientially. Guess what, we believe it hurts. Why? Because purgatory is the removal, by God, of the fleshly desires that cling to our soul so we can be perfect in heaven with God.

Would you want anything less?

The belief of the catholic church is NOT an "explanation of the last stage in the process of how one experiences the saving work of Christ on the indivdual".....it's in direct violation of Scriptures.

Not one Scripture has been provided to support the idea of "purgatory". catholics love to shout that it's Biblically sound, but provide nothing that can not be shown as taking Scripture out of complete context of that Scripture's actual meaning. It's been disproven here several times. But foolish pride prevents people from acknowledging it. They would have to admit they were wrong.

Well, I used to think your way until I starting looking at these things in light of what the Church *actually* teaches and how it all works together.

First, how do YOU know what scripture consists of? Second, how do you know that you are interpreting the scriptures correctly?

However, this isn't a matter of being right or wrong. It's a matter of being Holy.

Exactly! If one dies and isn't perfectly holy, God gave us the gift of some temporary third state, which Catholics call purgatory and many Protestants call glorification. The difference is, Catholics think it'll hurt.

One can not be Holy when one believes and practices things outside of what the Word of God tells us. The reason people object to man made up beliefs is because of their love for all people....not that they want to be right. We have an obligation to help people to be on the path of righteousness. I know personally, that when I step off and someone points it out to me, I'm grateful....not feeling like they have insulted me. Christians should never feel insulted when someone reaches out to them out of love, showing them the err's of their ways (which being imperfct people, we all err at times) in order to help them back on the right path. That is what myself and others are doing here....we love you enough, caring about your spiritual wellness, to point out Scripture that shows you have fallen into false teachings. It's not a religion that is being spoken out against....it's the enemy who wants us to steer away from truth. Battles in this world are not battles between flesh and flesh....but against the powers of darkness.

There was no "fluff" in his comment. It was truth. I encourage you to search for truth yourself, using Scripture as your tool, with proper exegesis and heumenautics. Eph 6:12 tells us that all Scriptures are used for learning, teaching and rebuffing. That's all we need.

I was an evangelical before I was Catholic. I know and respect the scriptures. I also know where they came from and who is best qualified to interpret them and it ain't me!!

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Albion]

Not do, experience. No one in purgatory is doing anything but experiencing it with the hope of heaven. They can't do anything to add or subtract. Those in purgatory are in God's hands having Christ's merits applied to them experientially. Guess what, we believe it hurts. Why? Because purgatory is the removal, by God, of the fleshly desires that cling to our soul so we can be perfect in heaven with God.

Where does the idea come from that the sacrifice of the Cross was insufficient to accomplish our redemption?

If one dies and isn't perfectly holy, God gave us the gift of some temporary third state, which Catholics call purgatory and many Protestants call glorification. The difference is, Catholics think it'll hurt.

WHY? Why does the Cross not do all that Jesus intended for it to do? And if there is any sense in claiming that the saved, redeemed, and forgiven person has to be "perfected" in some unsubstantiated way, why wouldn't you think that it would be a process that is NOT Hellish?? Purgatory is nothing but a notion that's a holdover from a time of torture chambers, inquisition, and heresy hunts that the church has to hold onto only because it claims to be the church that never changes.

I was an evangelical before I was Catholic. I know and respect the scriptures. I also know where they came from and who is best qualified to interpret them and it ain't me!!

Perhaps not, but I can recommend a lot of scholarship and expertise out there that's preferable to just checking one's brain at the door of the largest denomination.

 

[loveabounds]

jesus said that blasphamy agianst the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next, do you think that means that some sins that are not blasphamy against the holy spirit will be forgiven in the next world?
the Bible also says that no unclean thing can enter heaven, are our sins not unclean? what about harmful habbits? addictions? failings?

You are correct...the only unforgivable sin is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

I hate answering a question with a question, but I'm going to in order to answer yours. Do you think that once we are Christians that makes us perfect? That we will no longer sin? It is BECAUSE we are sinners that Jesus Christ came, suffered and died to atone for our sins. We have a sinful nature. There are times we are going to sin. And before anyone jumps on the old OSAS bandwagon.....we do not intentionally sin believing that it's ok to do so because we are believers in Christ. We try to be sinless. But being human, we fail. This is the reason Christ did what He had do to, we can not be Holy without Him.....we are covered in the perfect blood of Jesus Christ. This is God's new covenant to us. We are covered.... Jesus atoned, justified us, sanctified us. We are no longer under the law as the Holy Spirit dwells within us, activates our conscience, helps us to follow the will of God. Out of that covenant, Hebrews 8:12 states: "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more". Jesus already took care of it all. "It is finished". PTL!!!

 

[loveabounds]

Not do, experience. No one in purgatory is doing anything but experiencing it with the hope of heaven. They can't do anything to add or subtract. Those in purgatory are in God's hands having Christ's merits applied to them experientially. Guess what, we believe it hurts. Why? Because purgatory is the removal, by God, of the fleshly desires that cling to our soul so we can be perfect in heaven with God.

Would you want anything less?

I'm sorry.....but I was catholic for 30 years and what is taught is that when someone dies, we pray for their souls and when they get into heaven due to our prayers, they turn around and pray for us. This is built on works....not faith. That's not an "experience", it's something more that one needs to do. What Christ did was not good enough!



Well, I used to think your way until I starting looking at these things in light of what the Church *actually* teaches and how it all works together.

The Gospel teaches "how it works" and it's only through the perfect blood of Christ.

First, how do YOU know what scripture consists of? Second, how do you know that you are interpreting the scriptures correctly?

John 16:12-15 and 1 Cor 2:9-11 are two examples of how I know what Scripture consists of. The Holy Spirit reveals it to me. I trust in God with my whole heart and do not lean on my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me and then....How do I know that I am correctly interpreting Scriptures?? I use Scripture to interpet Scripture. If you don't already have one, I encourage you to get a chain reference study bible which will have Scriptures in the margins to lead us to the truth of God's written word. I do not need man to interpret it for me. I do not need man written articles, books, or anything else to explain what Scripture means. I have studied Theology under one of the theologians who helped translate the KJV into the NKJV. However, I take no man's word for anything....I allow the Holy Spirit to help me discern and search, guide and reveal truth.

We do not have a confusing God. He gave us the tools in the Bible to understand His words, His will. The confusion comes in when man's pride thinks he knows better!

I keep repeating 2 Tim 3:16...it doesn't get any more simple than this.


Exactly! If one dies and isn't perfectly holy, God gave us the gift of some temporary third state, which Catholics call purgatory and many Protestants call glorification. The difference is, Catholics think it'll hurt.

This is not Scriptural. It goes against Scripture and the purpose of Jesus Christ.


I was an evangelical before I was Catholic. I know and respect the scriptures. I also know where they came from and who is best qualified to interpret them and it ain't me!!

If you lean on other writtings to teach you, you do not know or respect Scriptures. You're right....you're interpretation isn't from you but it certainly isn't from God either since what you believe is not found in Scriptures, which as I've already stated from Eph: 6:12 comes elsewhere.

If your dogma involves anything outside of Jesus Christ doing it all, thinking you must do something to become Holy outside of believing in Christ, it is not from God.

What do the words "it is finished" mean to you?

 

[Rhamiel]

You are correct...the only unforgivable sin is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

I hate answering a question with a question, but I'm going to in order to answer yours. Do you think that once we are Christians that makes us perfect? That we will no longer sin? It is BECAUSE we are sinners that Jesus Christ came, suffered and died to atone for our sins. We have a sinful nature. There are times we are going to sin. And before anyone jumps on the old OSAS bandwagon.....we do not intentionally sin believing that it's ok to do so because we are believers in Christ. We try to be sinless. But being human, we fail. This is the reason Christ did what He had do to, we can not be Holy without Him.....we are covered in the perfect blood of Jesus Christ. This is God's new covenant to us. We are covered.... Jesus atoned, justified us, sanctified us. We are no longer under the law as the Holy Spirit dwells within us, activates our conscience, helps us to follow the will of God. Out of that covenant, Hebrews 8:12 states: "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more". Jesus already took care of it all. "It is finished". PTL!!!

so we still have a sinful nature while on earth, we have temptations and we make mistakes
in heaven, we will not be like that
so up untill the moment we die we still have temptations and mistakes
but in heaven we will not be like that, remember no unclean thing can enter heaven
so
some time before heaven but after death, Jesus takes away all of those things that keeps our will from being totaly in line with His will, Catholics call that period "Purgatory"

 

[Needing_Grace]

Where does the idea come from that the sacrifice of the Cross was insufficient to accomplish our redemption?

Good question. I didn't invent the notion, someone angry at the Catholic Church did.

WHY? Why does the Cross not do all that Jesus intended for it to do? And if there is any sense in claiming that the saved, redeemed, and forgiven person has to be "perfected" in some unsubstantiated way, why wouldn't you think that it would be a process that is NOT Hellish?? Purgatory is nothing but a notion that's a holdover from a time of torture chambers, inquisition, and heresy hunts that the church has to hold onto only because it claims to be the church that never changes.

Perhaps not, but I can recommend a lot of scholarship and expertise out there that's preferable to just checking one's brain at the door of the largest denomination.

My understanding of purgatory, which is the Church's understanding as far as I know, is that the purpose of purgatory is to apply the objective fact of Christ's righteousness being applied to the redeemed in the subjective sense from the perspective of the redeemed. You might call it glorification. We just say the process isn't instant and it hurts. That's all.

It's not about God getting some sadistic thrill from roasting His children (neither is Hell), it's our God straightening our collars and making sure we, personally, are ready such before we get to the main event.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Albion]

Good question. I didn't invent the notion, someone angry at the Catholic Church did.

Now now. It's not non-Catholics who have postulated the necessity of a place or state of being in the afterlife where those who have been redeemed must be tortured for forgiven sins! That's Purgatory, and it's a doctrine held by only one church out of all the thousands of branches of Christ's church.

WHY? Why does the Cross not do all that Jesus intended for it to do? And if there is any sense in claiming that the saved, redeemed, and forgiven person has to be "perfected" in some unsubstantiated way, why wouldn't you think that it would be a process that is NOT Hellish?? Purgatory is nothing but a notion that's a holdover from a time of torture chambers, inquisition, and heresy hunts that the church has to hold onto only because it claims to be the church that never changes.

Perhaps not, but I can recommend a lot of scholarship and expertise out there that's preferable to just checking one's brain at the door of the largest denomination.

My understanding of purgatory, which is the Church's understanding as far as I know, is that the purpose of purgatory is to apply the objective fact of Christ's righteousness being applied to the redeemed in the subjective sense from the perspective of the redeemed. You might call it glorification. We just say the process isn't instant and it hurts. That's all.

All you've done there is restate what was already said. My question was this--WHY would you think that a person who's already been saved by the blood of Christ needs to be tortured for awhile?

It's not about God getting some sadistic thrill from roasting His children

Right. I wouldn't think that it is.

it's our God straightening our collars and making sure we, personally, are ready such before we get to the main event.

Huh? And this requires him to torture for awhile the people he's already redeemed. Think about it. What sense does that make? And , by the way, what is it about being tortured that makes us ready for ultimate love and harmony?