The Grave Danger of the Catholic-Based "Purgatory" Theory!

[steve_bakr]

The problem isn't that your opinions are not in harmony with the catholic church, it's that they are not in harmony with Scripture, which is the only true word and instruction from God.

The Lord did NOT make purgatory....the catholic church did.

Again I'll ask....why isn't your concern that your opinions or the catholic church's, conflict with the Word of God???

I believe that the teachings of the Catholic Church do not conflict with Scripture.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve,

You post a quote from Julian of Norwich about confidence in purgatory, what say you about the confidence the Apostle Paul had when he states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, omitting any place or state of "purgatory??

"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" 2 Cor 5:8

I am confident that a our home will be with the Lord. Is there anything that says the Lord is not present in some fashion in Purgatory?

 

[loveabounds]

I believe that the teachings of the Catholic Church do not conflict with Scripture.

Numerous Scriptures have been posted to show how the belief in purgatory is shown to be in direct conflict with Scriptures.

Why do you ignore them?

 

[Albion]

While the CCC contains some overviews, at 756 pages I find it to be an amazingly comprehensive document. Their are briefer documents, such as the Compendium, but I prefer the CCC.

We agree that on the issue we're discussing here, it's not at all comprehensive, and that's been the case with others. It's not intended to be comprehensive.

BTW, please tell me what I've said that is not in harmony with the CCC, and I will retract it.

You are not in harmony with your church when saying that your experience in Purgatory will not be punishment but rather "fine." No, it's not a decompression chamber, an orientation session prior to entering heaven, or any of the other revisions that Catholics strain to come up with. By the official position of your church, the inventor of Purgatory, it is a place of punishment for sin, like hell is a place for punishment for sin.

As I told loveabounds, my understanding is that we are allowed to have opinions, so long as we strive to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church.

Yours is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.

But, I will be careful about expressing my opinion in the future, since it seems to have presented somewhat of a stumbling block to at least two Protestants here.

What is a problem for us is that part of the time you say that you have to take the POV of your church, and part of the time you say that you are allowed a private interpretation of Scripture, or even a personal opinion based on nothing more than wishful thinking. You do what you criticise us severely for allegedly doing. This makes discussions about doctrine and practice difficult when the church that never changes does change, when what's called non-negotiable and infallible, turns out to be not that at all when it's inconvenient, and when the authorities that you base doctrine on with some matters don't count at all at other times. I hope that helps.

 

[steve_bakr]

We agree that on the issue we're discussing here, it's not at all comprehensive, and that's been the case with others. It's not intended to be comprehensive.

You are not in harmony with your church when saying that your experience in Purgatory will not be punishment but rather "fine." No, it's not a decompression chamber, an orientation session prior to entering heaven, or any of the other revisions that Catholics strain to come up with. By the official position of your church, the inventor of Purgatory, it is a place of punishment for sin, like hell is a place for punishment for sin.

Yours is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.

What is a problem for us is that part of the time you say that you have to take the POV of your church, and part of the time you say that you are allowed a private interpretation of Scripture, or even a personal opinion based on nothing more than wishful thinking. You do what you criticise us severely for allegedly doing. This makes discussions about doctrine and practice difficult when the church that never changes does change, when what's called non-negotiable and infallible, turns out to be not that at all when it's inconvenient, and when the authorities that you base doctrine on with some matters don't count at all at other times. I hope that helps.

I will try to be closer to the teachings of the Church, but allow me to also reiterate the positive aspect of Purgatory as said in the CCC: purification.

 

[Rhamiel]

Albion, I really think you are just stuck in a medieval view of Purgatory

 

[Albion]

Albion, I really think you are just stuck in a medieval view of Purgatory

I've said it before, if the Roman Catholic Church has changed its definition, trot it out here and let's end this.

Meanwhile, all I've done is shown you what the meaning actually is. I know that the facts make Cafeteria Catholics uncomfortable, but that's not my problem.

 

[steve_bakr]

I've said it before, if the Roman Catholic Church has changed its definition, trot it out here and let's end this.

Meanwhile, all I've done is shown you what the meaning actually is. I know that the facts make Cafeteria Catholics uncomfortable, but that's not my problem.

Can you incorporate what it says in the CCC?

 

[steve_bakr]

We agree that on the issue we're discussing here, it's not at all comprehensive, and that's been the case with others. It's not intended to be comprehensive.

You are not in harmony with your church when saying that your experience in Purgatory will not be punishment but rather "fine." No, it's not a decompression chamber, an orientation session prior to entering heaven, or any of the other revisions that Catholics strain to come up with. By the official position of your church, the inventor of Purgatory, it is a place of punishment for sin, like hell is a place for punishment for sin.

Yours is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.

What is a problem for us is that part of the time you say that you have to take the POV of your church, and part of the time you say that you are allowed a private interpretation of Scripture, or even a personal opinion based on nothing more than wishful thinking. You do what you criticise us severely for allegedly doing. This makes discussions about doctrine and practice difficult when the church that never changes does change, when what's called non-negotiable and infallible, turns out to be not that at all when it's inconvenient, and when the authorities that you base doctrine on with some matters don't count at all at other times. I hope that helps.

What I don't understand, Albion, is that you have criticized me for being a parrot for the Catholic Church, and when I dared to venture an opinion--which I felt was based on the CCC--you beat me over the head with it, and use the derogatory term, Cafeteria Catholic.

 

[revrobor]

C'mon guys. Roman Catholics blindly believe anything their church teaches without ever investigating any of it on their own, They will learn eventually there is no such thing as "Purgatory". So why not save your energy for some productive discussion like someone searching for salvation?

 

[loveabounds]

C'mon guys. Roman Catholics blindly believe anything their church teaches without ever investigating any of it on their own, They will learn eventually there is no such thing as "Purgatory". So why not save your energy for some productive discussion like someone searching for salvation?

If you saw someone drowning, would you not throw them a lifeline? We continue to use the Word of God to help them see truth.

Sharing the Gospel is extremely important, no doubt. However, there are times that we need to help our brothers and sisters back on the path of righteousness, which is important also.

That said, it's quite clear that there hasn't been a catholic on his thread that has shown any interest in the actual Word of God, rather....they cling to something else. I'll keep on praying for them!!!

 

[revrobor]

If you saw someone drowning, would you not throw them a lifeline? We continue to use the Word of God to help them see truth.

Sharing the Gospel is extremely important, no doubt. However, there are times that we need to help our brothers and sisters back on the path of righteousness, which is important also.

That said, it's quite clear that there hasn't been a catholic on his thread that has shown any interest in the actual Word of God, rather....they cling to something else. I'll keep on praying for them!!!

They can't prove the existence of "Purgatory" but it isn't going to cost them their salvation. They're just in for a big surprise when they die.

 

[Albion]

What I don't understand, Albion, is that you have criticized me for being a parrot for the Catholic Church, and when I dared to venture an opinion--which I felt was based on the CCC--you beat me over the head with it, and use the derogatory term, Cafeteria Catholic.

'

Look at it from this end, then. You voluntarily joined in with a number of issues here, saying that you needed to uphold the Cathoic Church's official viewpoint--that's because we Protestants misrepresent things, you know. Just when I reluctantly accept that commitment, although I have a hard time respecting a refusal to merely kick around some ideas on a discussion board without any obligation on your part to renounce the church's position, I find the rug pulled out from under me and now the idea is that you (and others) can deny the church's teachings without any hesitation. In the process you also dismissed the same authorities (Councils, Church Fathers, magesterium) that have been presented to us in earlier debates as unimpeachable.

And why run from the nature of Purgatory so? Is it embarrassing to let other readers know that your church believes that we will all be punished in the afterlife rather than at least having a chance of being with God in happiness right after death?

 

[Albion]

They're just in for a big surprise when they die.

Maybe not. Purgatory has been so downgraded and minimized by the church in recent years (following a similar fate met by Limbo) that, from what I've experienced, the average Catholic not only doesn't know what it is, but doesn't believe in it. The Catholic posters here probably are more "up" on doctrine and church history than the average Catholic churchgoer, and THEY efuse to believe it. What then does the loyal but less well informed Catholic think happens after death?

They think that if they've done what the church said--received the sacraments, went to Mass on Sunday, fasted in Lent, etc--and were generally "good" that they will go straight to heaven. IOW it won't be a surprise for them to find that there is no Purgatory; they don't give Purgatory any thought right now..

 

[steve_bakr]

'

Look at it from this end, then. You voluntarily joined in with a number of issues here, saying that you needed to uphold the Cathoic Church's official viewpoint--that's because we Protestants misrepresent things, you know. Just when I reluctantly accept that commitment, although I have a hard time respecting a refusal to merely kick around some ideas on a discussion board without any obligation on your part to renounce the church's position, I find the rug pulled out from under me and now the idea is that you (and others) can deny the church's teachings without any hesitation. In the process you also dismissed the same authorities (Councils, Church Fathers, magesterium) that have been presented to us in earlier debates as unimpeachable.

And why run from the nature of Purgatory so? Is it embarrassing to let other readers know that your church believes that we will all be punished in the afterlife rather than at least having a chance of being with God in happiness right after death?

Although I prefer to take a more positive view of Purgatory, I acknowledge to you that Purgatory is also for the temporal punishment of sins commited after Baptism. I hope that helps my credibility with you.

 

[steve_bakr]

'

Look at it from this end, then. You voluntarily joined in with a number of issues here, saying that you needed to uphold the Cathoic Church's official viewpoint--that's because we Protestants misrepresent things, you know. Just when I reluctantly accept that commitment, although I have a hard time respecting a refusal to merely kick around some ideas on a discussion board without any obligation on your part to renounce the church's position, I find the rug pulled out from under me and now the idea is that you (and others) can deny the church's teachings without any hesitation. In the process you also dismissed the same authorities (Councils, Church Fathers, magesterium) that have been presented to us in earlier debates as unimpeachable.

And why run from the nature of Purgatory so? Is it embarrassing to let other readers know that your church believes that we will all be punished in the afterlife rather than at least having a chance of being with God in happiness right after death?

Although I prefer to take a more positive view of Purgatory, I acknowledge to you that Purgatory is also for the temporal punishment of sins commited after Baptism. I hope that helps my credibility with you.

 

[Albion]

Although I prefer to take a more positive view of Purgatory, I acknowledge to you that Purgatory is also for the temporal punishment of sins commited after Baptism. I hope that helps my credibility with you.

Sure, but what changed for you?

 

[steve_bakr]

Sure, but what changed for you?

Having it pointed out to me by someone I respect, and to be able to speak credibly about my faith. While it is true that the CCC says it's for purification, I cannot ignore it's a temporal punishment that I must pay on account of the sins I have commited after Baptism. That is clear teaching and I wanted to avoid facing that part of it. Why? Because I'm going there, and I don't like the idea of having to suffer punishment. At length,however, it has a good outcome because it results in final purification. No one, that I know of anyway, knows how long it will last--unless you are aware of more information about it. In some ways it's similar to dying--I don't want it to happen, but it's the only way to get to the other side. I appreciate your honesty.

 

[steve_bakr]

Maybe not. Purgatory has been so downgraded and minimized by the church in recent years (following a similar fate met by Limbo) that, from what I've experienced, the average Catholic not only doesn't know what it is, but doesn't believe in it. The Catholic posters here probably are more "up" on doctrine and church history than the average Catholic churchgoer, and THEY efuse to believe it. What then does the loyal but less well informed Catholic think happens after death?

They think that if they've done what the church said--received the sacraments, went to Mass on Sunday, fasted in Lent, etc--and were generally "good" that they will go straight to heaven. IOW it won't be a surprise for them to find that there is no Purgatory; they don't give Purgatory any thought right now..

With regard to Limbo, that is something which--I will use my words carefully--the Church has been enlightened about, or may be in the process of being enlightened about. The CCC states that we have reason to hope for the Salvation of unbaptised infants. How that happens is not made known, but it would definitely end the existence of Limbo, unless it becomes an intermediate state like Purgatory. Does this mean that the Church changed its teaching? Some Catholics say no, and still argue for the existence of Limbo. I'm not averse to the Church having further enlightenment through the Holy Spirit on the subject.

 

[Needing_Grace]

Having it pointed out to me by someone I respect, and to be able to speak credibly about my faith. While it is true that the CCC says it's for purification, I cannot ignore it's a temporal punishment that I must pay on account of the sins I have commited after Baptism. That is clear teaching and I wanted to avoid facing that part of it. Why? Because I'm going there, and I don't like the idea of having to suffer punishment. At length,however, it has a good outcome because it results in final purification. No one, that I know of anyway, knows how long it will last--unless you are aware of more information about it. In some ways it's similar to dying--I don't want it to happen, but it's the only way to get to the other side. I appreciate your honesty.

Opening a can of worms, I know, but.. Just so you know, you can avoid purgatory altogether if you rack up plenary indulgences. My favorite plenary indulgence is to renew my baptismal vows on the anniversary of my baptism and during the Easter Vigil. Theres also the promise of Divine Mercy Sunday Just sayin'

Sent from my iPhone using CF