The Grave Danger of the Catholic-Based "Purgatory" Theory!

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I've been following this along, and am I to assume that the above verse is considered evidence for purgatory? I'm sorry I've been bouncing from thread to thread, so I may be misunderstanding.

These verses were posted in defense of the idea that a Christian can fall away and lose his salvation, not merely that he will go to Purgatory to pay for his sins. Here is the full set of verses that was posted, in blue, with my responses, in black.

a. Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Nobody denies that one of the marks of a Christian is perserverance in the faith. Augustine, in his development of double predestination (a doctrine now denied by the Catholic Church) affirms that the elect will perservere and will do so, not by their own efforts, but by the grace of God.


b. Rom 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans 11 addresses the nation of Israel (God has not rejected His people - vs. 1) and their present state of unbelief. Paul makes it abundantly clear that God will restore national Israel, as evidenced by the verses you quoted.


c. Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

How simple to divorce this verse from the following verse which clearly explains who works out our salvation in us. It is God, not us.


d. 1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

The Greek word, adokinos, which is translated as castaway, is only used here and is found nowhere else in the NT. It is best translated as not approved, as many English translations do. It does not connote eternal condemnation, as you would imply.


e.1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

In this passage Paul uses the nation of Israel as an object lesson (them in figure) for the Corinthians to warn the Corinthians to flee from temptation and sin. He does not threaten them with eternal damnation even as Israel did not suffer eternal damnation as a result of their sins in the wilderness.


f. Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The writer to the Hebrews addresses the current state of the nation of Israel in the verses you quoted. He speaks of "them" and uses the plural consistently, not the singular. He does this to contrast with the believers (beloved) in verse 9 who are encouraged to realize the full assurance of hope.


g.Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

After delivering the stern warning you quoted, the author then goes on to encourage the saints, ending the chapter with verse 39, which forthrightly states that we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

 

[steve_bakr]

These verses were posted in defense of the idea that a Christian can fall away and lose his salvation, not merely that he will go to Purgatory to pay for his sins. Here is the full set of verses that was posted, in blue, with my responses, in black.

a. Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Nobody denies that one of the marks of a Christian is perserverance in the faith. Augustine, in his development of double predestination (a doctrine now denied by the Catholic Church) affirms that the elect will perservere and will do so, not by their own efforts, but by the grace of God.


b. Rom 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans 11 addresses the nation of Israel (God has not rejected His people - vs. 1) and their present state of unbelief. Paul makes it abundantly clear that God will restore national Israel, as evidenced by the verses you quoted.


c. Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

How simple to divorce this verse from the following verse which clearly explains who works out our salvation in us. It is God, not us.


d. 1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

The Greek word, adokinos, which is translated as castaway, is only used here and is found nowhere else in the NT. It is best translated as not approved, as many English translations do. It does not connote eternal condemnation, as you would imply.


e.1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

In this passage Paul uses the nation of Israel as an object lesson (them in figure) for the Corinthians to warn the Corinthians to flee from temptation and sin. He does not threaten them with eternal damnation even as Israel did not suffer eternal damnation as a result of their sins in the wilderness.

f. Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The writer to the Hebrews addresses the current state of the nation of Israel in the verses you quoted. He speaks of "them" and uses the plural consistently, not the singular. He does this to contrast with the believers (beloved) in verse 9 who are encouraged to realize the full assurance of hope.

g.Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

After delivering the stern warning you quoted, the author then goes on to encourage the saints, ending the chapter with verse 39, which forthrightly states that we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

I think this matter of falling away perhaps depends on the different viewpoints between double predestination and free will.

In the former view, suffering eternal loss would depend on a person's predestined status. In the latter view, a Christian with free will would have to have the theoretical possibility of rejecting God.

Either way, however, there seems to be an element of uncertainty, even if it is just theoretical uncertainty.

My Protestant wife, however, DOES have a sense of certainty, and I'm actually OK with that. At least for myself, I believe that my reasons for hope outweigh my reasons for fear.

 

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I think this matter of falling away perhaps depends on the different viewpoints between double predestination and free will.

In the former view, suffering eternal loss would depend on a person's predestined status. In the latter view, a Christian with free will would have to have the theoretical possibility of rejecting God.

Either way, however, there seems to be an element of uncertainty, even if it is just theoretical uncertainty.

My Protestant wife, however, DOES have a sense of certainty, and I'm actually OK with that. At least for myself, I believe that my reasons for hope outweigh my reasons for fear.

I often wonder what factors caused the Catholic Church to shift from the certainty of Augustine's double predestination to the utter uncertainty of its present stance. That said, I certainly understand the two sides of the issue.

It reminds me of the old question as to the temptations of Jesus Christ and whether or not He could have sinned. Orthodox Christianity, of course, denies that He could have sinned, much less would have sinned.

Inevitably, it is a very rare Christian I encounter that does not possess some measure of hope for eternal life in heaven. I pray that your hope will blossom into certainty based upon God's promises and not your abilities to attain to God's perfection.

 

[Tangible]

I think this matter of falling away perhaps depends on the different viewpoints between double predestination and free will.

In the former view, suffering eternal loss would depend on a person's predestined status. In the latter view, a Christian with free will would have to have the theoretical possibility of rejecting God.

Either way, however, there seems to be an element of uncertainty, even if it is just theoretical uncertainty.

My Protestant wife, however, DOES have a sense of certainty, and I'm actually OK with that. At least for myself, I believe that my reasons for hope outweigh my reasons for fear.

You should try Biblical (non-double) predestination some time.