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Featured Non-Trinitarian The God or a god

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by he-man, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Why do you assume there was a "first created being", rather than all being created together?

    Scripture [KJB] doesn't say who the first created being was
    , and is possible that all the angelic hosts [including Lucifer] were created at the same time, though, since scripture does not say, silence is golden where God hath not enlightened, and I do not say one way or another where it does not do so:

    Psalms 104:4 KJB - Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

    Psalms 33:9 KJB - For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.​

    Michael is Jesus, the Uncreated and Eternal Son of the Father, as practically all the reformers taught, including Luther, Melanchthon, Geneva Bible, etc., which may be seen here, all the way back to Melito of Sardis - [Link] [<--if you had read this freely given material, on numerous occasions and with ample time to do so, you wouldn't need to ask me these questions, but I will share once more] & [Link]

    Gabriel is a lesser archangel under the authority of the Son [Jesus], a covering cherub, who replaced Lucifer, after he fell, - Luke 1:19 KJB, etc. All the created angels, worship Jesus:

    Hebrews 1:6 KJB - And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.​

    Hebrews 1:6 NWT [revised 1970 CE; Hard Greenback, I have in my hands, all the previous editions basically say the same] - "But when he again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels worship him."​

    Quoting from:

    Psalms 97:7 KJB - "... worship him, all ye gods."

    Psalms 97:7 NWT [current, silver sword] - "... Bow down to* him, all you gods.m ..."

    NWT Psalms 97:7 footnote *, says, "*Or “Worship.”" - [1]​

    You may see a highlighted copy of a similar edition of the NWT here - [1]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for proving my point and agreeing with what I said, and not giving a single evidence of a single mss, papyri, codice, palimpsest, etc., in any language in the world, with the word "other" in Colossians 1:16, other than as found in "addition" [your own word] in the NWT, by the WTS.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  3. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Be careful with lexicons, for if you know who put them together, you would flee from them. I will recommend a book to you - Greek and Hebrew Study Dangers

    I actually own the more complete work, Hazardous Materials [1,202 pages, all read], so if you need me to point out any particular lexicon, or author/s thereof, let me know.

    Words are defined by the Bible itself, as it is written:

    Isaiah 28:10 KJB - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

    1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    It says, "precept upon precept; line upon line", and "comparing spiritual things with spiritual". Not comparing to the greek, etc of lexicons, which bring in all manner of pagan, platonic definitions, see the word "soul", "hell", etc. You really ought to know better.

    The bible [KJB] itself defined "firstborn", and I already agreed with that definition [1], and neither added to, nor took anything away from that definition [God forbid!]. The additional material from the so-called LXX [the work of gnostic Origen, already shown here [2]], as cited by yourself [you truly are following in the footsteps of the 'Hellenist', G1675], again only proved what I already stated from actual scripture [KJB].
     
  4. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Of course it has temporal significance, who said it didn't, not I.

    Why use a word like "firstborn"? I showed from Revelation 12 [1], that Jesus is literally, the "firstborn" of the "Woman", and brought "into the world", thus the Second/Last Adam [1 Corinthians 15:45 KJB].

    1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.​

    Colossians 1:12-20 KJB, deals with the incarnation and the resurrection, even the "woman", the "church":

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

    Every created thing that will continue to exist into eternity, can and will only exist in the Son.

    Further, if we go to Hebrews:

    Hebrews 2:9 KJB - But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    Hebrews 2:11 KJB - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    Hebrews 2:12 KJB - Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    Hebrews 2:16 KJB - For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    Thus, Jesus, taking upon himself the fallen sinful flesh nature of mankind, being born of the Holy Ghost through a woman:

    Luke 1:35 KJB - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Galatians 4:4 KJB - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    Yet, Jesus was clear:

    John 3:6 KJB - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

    ... there are many more brothers/sisters that came after Him, the Victorious:

    John 1:13 KJB - Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    John 3:3 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    John 3:5 KJB - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    1 Peter 1:23 KJB - Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    1 John 3:9 KJB - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    1 John 4:7 KJB - Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    1 John 5:1 KJB - Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    1 John 5:4 KJB - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    1 John 5:18 KJB - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
    I wanted to add an additional question, since we are on the subject of being "born of God".

    Do you, personally, remember the day that you repented at the calling of Christ, and personally asked Jesus Christ for forgiveness, asking, "Lord Jesus, save me.", and called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and were born of the Holy Ghost, and arose washed in the blood of the Lamb? I do, and remember the very presence of God in my own room that night of hot tears and filthy shame, being wiped away ... Do you remember where you where, what was happening, do you remember your new birth and the joy it brought? Can you describe that day/night/moment?

    1 Corinthians 1:2 KJB - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    Genesis 4:26 KJB - And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

    Acts 2:21 KJB - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Romans 10:13 KJB - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Matthew 9:2 KJB - And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.​

    I am not asking about water baptism.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  5. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Easier to do that [always whine about the OP rule, which was clear from the beginning], than to address the following question, and its evidences -

     
  6. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    More importantly, is the word "protoktioti" used in Koine Greek scriptures?

    The disagreement is not that the text does not say, "firstborn", as I already cited it does, twice:

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

    The question is, "what does it refer to?" The Son of God coming into existence at some point in eternity past? Can't be because of Colossians 1:16-17,18; John 1:1-3, 8:24; Hebrews 1:2-3; Acts 7:50, Revelation 1,22 [Alpha and Omega] etc KJB

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colpssians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.​

    The only way for it to mean what you need it to mean, is to make an "addition" [your word], of the word "other" to your own publication, the NWT, though there is not a single mss, codice, papyrii, palimpsest, etc in existence, in any language known, that you could produce as evidence to make such a claim. The WTS actually follows those in Paul's day who corrupt the text, and you ought to personally be very ashamed at having to do something like that to substantiate a belief, because of undimmed and unconfessed pride [to admit wrong/sin, which is why you need to really read what Jesus said in John 8:24 KJB]:

    2 Corinthias 2:17 KJB - For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
    The WTS has to argue in circles, like this, proving what they themselves changed to begin with, so that they wouldn't be in the wrong. In fact, it is why they change their doctrine so much, along with their 'revised" text, how many revisions is it now? I lost count.

    Perhaps another question might help you. In Genesis, when JEHOVAH Elohiym created the fruit trees, what was created first, the tree, the seed, or the fruit? or did it all come into existence at the same moment?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  7. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

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    I believe that all religions are referring to the same God. The obvious being Judaism, Islam and Christianity which all refer to the God of Abraham. But I also believe that Hinduism also refers to the same God. The many Gods of Hinduism are simply manifestations of Brahma, similar to Christianity's several manifestations of God (ie trinity). The adversarial views religions hold towards one another is IMO unnecessary as they have far more similarities than differences.
     
  8. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    The 'god' ['Allah'] of Islam, has no Son, feel free to consider the evidence I share here - https://www.christianforums.com/thr...n-of-the-desert-matthew-24-24-26-kjb.8058098/

    The 'god' ["Allah"] of the Qur'an has no son ['"Isa" is only a created being, sounds like Jehovah's Witnesses don't it?], or [any] sons [not even faithful Muslims are sons], only [created] "slaves" [sounds like WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses don't it?; not servants], of which includes the Muslim 'Isa:

    Surah Al Baqara 2:116 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

    “... And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children of offspring) [1]. Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on the earth, and surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him. ...”

    “... [1] (V.2:116) “They (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children, offspring). Glory be to Him ... Nay ....”

    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said, “Allah said, 'The son of Adam tells lies against Me though he has no right to do so, and he abuses Me though he has no right to do so. As for his telling lies against Me, he claims that I cannot re-create him as I created him before; and as for his abusing Me: it is his statement that I have a son (or offspring) No! Glorified be Me! I am far from taking a wife or a son (or offspring).'” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, Hadith No. 9). ...”​

    Surah Al 'Imran 3:55 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

    “... [v.55] And (remember) when Allah said: “O 'Isa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Isa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad, 'Isa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur'an] till the Day of Resurrection [1]. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.” ...”

    * Notation in al-Hilali-Khan translation on Surah 3:55 - “... (V.3:55) The advent (descent) of 'Isa (Jesus), [son of Maryam (Mary)]. a) Narrated Abu Hurairah: Allah's Messenger said, “By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, surely ['Isa (Jesus)], the son of Maryam (Mary) will shortly descend amongst you (Muslims), and will judge mankind justly by the law of the Qur'an (as a just ruler); he will break the cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizyah* (i.e. taxation taken from non-Muslims). ...”​

    Surah Al 'Imran 3:62 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

    “... [v.62] Verily! This is the true narrative [about the story of 'Isa (Jesus)], and La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, the One and the Only True God, Who has neither a wife nor a son). And indeed, Allah is the All-Mighty, the All-wise. ...”​

    Surah Maryam 19:35 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

    “... [v.35] It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should begat a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allah, by saying that 'Isa (Jesus) is the son of Allah]. Glorified (and Exalted) be He (above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it: “Be!” – and it is. [4] ...”​

    Tafsir of al-Jalalayn on Surah Al 'Imran 3:59 -

    “... [3:59] Truly, the likeness of Jesus, his remarkable case, in God’s sight, is as Adam’s likeness, as the case of Adam, whom God created without father or mother: this is a comparison of one remarkable thing with another more remarkable, so that it convinces the disputer and establishes itself in one’s mind more effectively. He created him, Adam, that is, his form, of dust, then said He to him, ‘Be,’, a human being, and he was; similarly, He said to Jesus, ‘Be’ — without a father — and he was. ...”​

    Surah Maryam 19:88-93 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

    “... [v.88] And they say: “The Most Gracious (Allah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Isa (Jesus)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (Angels and others)].” [v.89] Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. [v.90] Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins. [v.91] That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Gracious (Allah). [v.92] But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Gracious (Allah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). [v.93] There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Gracious (Allah) as a slave. ...”​

    Surah Al Jinn 72:1-4 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

    “... [v.1] Say (O Muhammad): “It has been revealed to me that a group (from thee to ten in number) of jinn [1] listened (to this Qur'an). They said: 'Verily, we have heard a wonderful Recitation (this Qur'an)! [v.2] 'It guides to the Right Path, and we have believed therein, and we shall never join (in worship) anything with our Lord (Allah). [v.3] 'And He, exalted be the Majesty of our Lord, has taken neither a wife nor a son (or offspring or children). [2] [v.4] 'And that the foolish among us [i.e. Iblis (Satan) or the polytheists amongst the jinn] used to utter against Allah that which was an enormity in falsehood. ...”​

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 415 -

    “... Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, “Allah the Most Superior said, “The son of Adam slights Me, and he should not slight Me, and he disbelieves in Me, and he ought not to do so. As for his slighting Me, it is that he says that I have a son; and his disbelief in Me is his statement that I shall not recreate him as I have created (him) before.” ...”​

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 9 -

    “... Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said, “Allah said, 'The son of Adam tells a lie against me though he has no right to do so, and he abuses Me though he has no right to do so. As for his telling a lie against Me, it is that he claims that I cannot recreate him as I created him before; and as for his abusing Me, it is his statement that I have offspring. No! Glorified be Me! I am far from taking a wife or offspring.'” ...”​

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 498 -

    “... Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “Allah said: 'The son of Adam tells a lie against Me, though he hasn't the right to do so. He abuses me though he hasn't the right to do so. As for his telling a lie against Me, it is his saying that I will not recreate him as I created him for the first time. In fact, the first creation was not easier for Me than new creation. As for his abusing Me, it is his saying that Allah has begotten children, while I am the One, the Self-Sufficient Master Whom all creatures need, I beget not, nor was I begotten, and there is none like unto Me.” ...”​

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 499 -

    “... Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, “Allah said: – 'The son of Adam tells a lie against Me and he hasn't the right to do so; and he abuses me and he hasn't the right to do so. His telling a lie against Me is his saying that I will not recreate him as I created him for the first time; and his abusing Me is his saying that Allah has begotten children, while I am the self-sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, Who begets not nor was He begotten, and there is none like unto Me.” ...”​

    Yet, the Father said:

    Matthew 3:17 KJB - And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    2 Peter 1:17 KJB - For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
    Scripture says:

    1 John 5:10 KJB - He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.​

    If you do not believe that with all thine heart, you shall perish likewise:

    John 8:23 KJB - And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

    John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    Jesus said:

    Luke 10:22 KJB - All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.​

    John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    Today's Judaism, is not actually the religion of scripture, and they worship a kabalistic god [on the most part], and deny, and blaspheme the Son, expecially if they are Talmudic 'jews':

    "... Sanhedrin 43a[77] relates the trial and execution of a sorcerer named Jesus (Yeshu in Hebrew) and his five disciples. The sorcerer is stoned and hanged on the Eve of Passover.[78]

    Sanhedrin 107[79] tells of a Jesus ("Yeshu") "offended his teacher by paying too much attention to the inn-keeper's wife. Jesus wished to be forgiven, but [his rabbi] was too slow to forgive him, and Jesus in despair went away and put up a brick [idol] and worshipped it."[80]

    In Gittin 56b, 57a[81] a story is mentioned in which Onkelos summons up the spirit of a Yeshu who sought to harm Israel. He describes his punishment in the afterlife as boiling in excrement.[82][83]

    Some scholars claim that the Hebrew name Yeshu is not a short form of the name Yeshua, but rather an acrostic for the Hebrew phrase "may his name and memory be blotted out" created by taking the first letter of the Hebrew words.[84]

    In addition, at the 1240 Disputation of Paris, Donin presented the allegation that the Talmud was blasphemous towards Mary, the mother of Jesus (Miriam in Hebrew), and this criticism has been repeated by many Christian sources.[85] The texts cited by critics include Sanhedrin 67a,[86] Sanhedrin 106a,[87] and Shabbath 104b.[88] However, the references to Mary are not specific, and some assert that they do not refer to Jesus' mother, or perhaps refer to Mary Magdalen.[89] ..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud

    Hinduism [with its Shivas and Kalis, and Brahman, and Vishnu, and Ganesha, Hanuman, etc, they worship death, not life, without needing to be saved] is nothing like Christianity in its core teachings, as Hinduism teaches works, emptying and deadening of the mind [that another evil entity may fill it] and re-incarnation, which the bible condemns, as it teaches the need of salvation of grace through faith, renewing of the mind indwelt by the Holy Ghost, and resurrection:

    Hebrews 9:27 KJB - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Hebrews 6:2 KJB - Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.​

    Ephesians 2:8 KJB - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Ephesians 2:9 KJB - Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Ephesians 2:10 KJB - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Repent. Be not deceived [nor deceiving] for JEHOVAH Elohiym is not mocked. What you sow, you will reap an abundance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  9. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

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    You're seeking an us versus them approach. They are wrong and You are right. Their God is Satan inspired and Yours is the only real one. I know all that and I guess 99.9% will agree with you.

    My view is that its a more primitive and dogmatic view of what God is and the nature of spirituality. Hence why I hold to the notion that we are all talking about one God.
     
  10. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the admission. I accept it.

    Thank you again for the admission. I accept it.

    JEHOVAH Elohiym's faith and religion is not "common core math" [where all answers, end results, and goals are valid, just so long as you show your works], not "havin' it your way" [since I don't serve the Burger King, I serve the True JEHOVAH Elohiym of Heaven [Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Revelatin 14:6-12 KJB] the KING of Kings, and LORD of Lords, eternal I AM], therefore, all the other ways, which are not "the way", even Jesus Christ, are roads to desruction, paths of falsehood.

    Truth error; ever.
     
  11. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

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    Haven't you ever wondered why God and truth is highly geographically-centric? if your born in USA then the truth is through Christianity and is called God. If you are born in Israel then truth is through Judaism. If you are born in Pakistan the truth is through Islam and is called Allah. And of course if your born in India and parts of Asia then the truth is through Hinduism and the God Brahma. Each religion has highly educated and dedicated religious scholars extolling the truth and virtues of their religion.

    So the truth and selection of God is selectively geographically concentrated. Most would argue that the identification of what God is, the name attributed to him, and the book supporting those beliefs, are not so much about the scholastic and philosophical virtues of those religions, but rather the cultural backgrounds of its followers.

    So you repeating yourself that other religions are wrong is well countered with educated religious philosophers stating that it's you that's wrong. The real truth is that no-one has the proof of right or wrong here and it may well be that all or none of the worlds religions is right. The best we can do is be open minded, learn what we can, and live ethical and loving lives for the benefit of this life and what may come afterwards.
     
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    You are without excuse:

    John 17:17 KJB - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    1 Corinthians 8:5 KJB - For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Romans 10:6 KJB - But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

    Romans 10:7 KJB - Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

    Romans 10:8 KJB - But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

    Romans 10:9 KJB - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Romans 10:10 KJB - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Romans 10:11 KJB - For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Romans 10:12 KJB - For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    Romans 10:13 KJB - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Romans 10:14 KJB - How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Romans 10:15 KJB - And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    Romans 10:16 KJB - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    Romans 10:17 KJB - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Romans 10:18 KJB - But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.​

    In the name of Jesus Christ, get thee behind me satan, with your lies, deception, sophistry, and semantics, thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
     
  13. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    Hey The7thColporteur,

    Please can you please respond to my other post in this thread here, it was addressed to you also. It seems your responses are just talking past me and not really addressing the arguments at hand. I'd like to keep thing all together if possible. I'll take a look when I'm home from work later.

    Oh, could you point out to everyone as well where the KJV adds the word "other" in the scriptures (I think it's more than 60 times), maybe explain why they do that, I guess that would be important to this debate. Speak later.

    Cheers
     
  14. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

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    No logical discussion then
     
  15. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    Don't take it personally lol
     
  16. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Well, it is your prerogative to feel that way. I was originally speaking with Heman, see [1], and as stated, you are more than welcome to address what has been written since then. There is quite a bit to go through, and when you are able to do that, let me know. Someone is avoiding material, but it is not I, and you even commented on my many responses to Heman.
     
  17. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    Lol... Were at the sidestepping part of this debate ALREADY! This just can't be true...

    Address the points raised in OUR discussion. See I've worked you out I think. You're not very confident of your beliefs as most of the replies are pre-preppared information (and lots of it), and when challenged on that information, you freeze, and try and detract from the arguments at hand. It seems you don't follow logic to well!

    So far; we need to throw out every lexicon because of a priori Trinitarian dogma... We need to discredit the LXX because of theology... And we need to pretend Paul was referring to the incarnation (even though he specifically says "OF creation"), because of well more theology!

    This isn't going well for your doctrine so far. Any other pages or books that need to be rewritten because of theology, or shall we move on to another verse?

    Regards
     
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. I have provided plenty of material already, and have already addressed your concerns in those, and in the recent responses to the present replies.

    I do want to know if you have watched the video, that you said that you would watch yet? Seriously and in all gravity. You gave me your word that you would. Another Jehovah's Witness, a sister, gave her word, of 'Yea", to me also that she would personally go over the prophecies and my questions thereof. She never fulfilled it. She tried to turn me over to a local hall.

    Why does this keep happening to me do you think?

    You may, of course, laugh. I will continue to weep for you now and continue to pray for you, and Heman.
     
  19. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    Still it continues...
    I addressed your post regarding Firstborn, to say that I haven't is not truthful.

    I just want you to see that it is not us in the forced position to explain away the Bible and lexicons and authoritative Greek translations of the OT when they don't agree! This is a terrible situation to find yourself in, and to lay this at my feet is a damning endictment of your character. This isn't normal, this is because of bad theology, and Jesus said many would be on this broad and spacious road.

    Also, I have said I'll watch a video, and I have. I thought I'd stop by here because you referenced Watchtower materials in this thread whilst in conversation with he-man so I thought you would like me to comment on it. Being the only JW here that seemed reasonable to conclude!

    So questions that I have got so far...
    1) How many uses of the word "other" appear in the KJV when not in the original, and why?
    2) Why in EVERY occurrence of "Firstborn Of" in the LXX does it indicate that the firstborn is 1) first in time, and 2) part of the group that follows?
    3) Why have you not addressed the fact that Christ is not said to be born of the Woman in Colossians 1:15, but "of all creation"?
    As a bonus;
    4) If we can change the meaning of words in any place we choose because elsewhere that same word was used to imply something specific ("make you my firstborn", for example). Then why can't we do this with every word that we don't like? Take for example "God", we all know what the word God implies in some contexts, namely, but not limited to, Love, power, wisdom, patience etc etc. So your argument could be used by Jehovah's witnesses at John 1:1, correct? We can simply say, "well you see the word God is there but it doesn't really mean God, it means Love, patience...... Therefore John 1:1 is simply saying the Word is [insert attributes here]", and this would be a sound argument no? Of course not...! This is your argument, and its poor!

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
  20. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Either way created means he did not exist originally. He was Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood. Hebrews 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning of the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be first. Matthew 1:16-17 and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations. Rom 8:29 For those whom he had before knowledge , he also did fore-appoint before hand to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. "here it simply means to know that certain persons would become Christians;
    Now I see why you are so superstitious and not only believe in a Trinity but also believe in a Lucifer angel. What person of any intelligence would make such a statement? Only one who is deeply superstitious.
    Balaam's Donkey and the Angel
    Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. 31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. In the same sense Peter and Judas were considered an adversary againtst the Lord.
    1Ki 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom. And what John says leaves out your devil theory: It was not a literal satan that fell, it was the figure of all superstitions about demons. The phrase “from heaven” is to be referred to the lightning, and does not mean that he saw “Satan” fall “from heaven,” but that he fell as quick as lightning [falls] from heaven or from the clouds. Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. And Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. The case of tēi sarki can be either locative (in) or dative (for). What was it? Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted. All sorts of theories are held (malaria, eye-trouble, epilepsy, insomnia, migraine or sick-headache, etc.). Messenger of Satan (aggelos Satana). Angel of Satan, the affliction personified.[RWP]What this thorn in the flesh might be has given birth to a multitude of conjectures: Tertullian thought it dolor auriculae, the ear ache; Chrysostom, κεφαλαλγια, the head ache; Cyprian, carnis et corporis multa ac gravia tormenta, many and grievous bodily torments. I believe the apostle to refer simply to the distresses he had endured through the opposition he met with at Corinth; which were as painful and grievous to him as a thorn in his flesh. The messenger of Satan - Another mode of expressing what he calls the thorn in the flesh; and he seems most plainly to refer to the false apostle at Corinth. [CLARKE]
    Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
    While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.
    Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition. The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a greater demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived
    from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel." It is easy to see how modern religions mistakenly adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".
    The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths. Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God like a Satan, as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist. (Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation,
    Schocken Books, 1985.).
    That is funny because what John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    Tell my why you are not foolish when you say you think your devil is cast down from heaven when you consider what Job says in chapter Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me. Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11 The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years in as much as from the hand of God only good can come, but against him, the Creator of the universe, no opposing being could originally exist but through their own fault they fell (John 8:44; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6);when Christ shall appear to overthrow the kingdom of [death] (1 Corinthians 15:26; Hebrews 2:14; 1 John 2:8). SEE Winer, 2, 385.
    At an earlier stage of the language it might have been possible to establish different renderings, but now the English equivalents are so stereotyped that any change seems impossible. Thus the rendering of διαβολος and διαμονιον by the same word 'devil' is a grievous loss ; and it is much to be regretted that Wycliffe's translation of διαμονιον by ' fiend ' was not adopted by Tyndale, in which case it would probably have become the current rendering.
    In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge) Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.


     
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