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Featured Non-Trinitarian The God or a god

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by he-man, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Ephesians 3:9 almost all the old manuscripts don't include the phrase "by Jesus Christ". Study Greek not JW Bible
     
  2. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    God stated that He would preserve His words [Psalms 12:6-7; Matthew 4:4, 24:35; Mark 12:31; Luke 4:4, 21:33 KJB, etc], not the greek texts, nor even the material on which His words were written. Majority counts for nothing, and same with older [for older doesn't mean more accurate] [as I am sure yourself would agree, otherwise, we might have some interesting discussion, in whether you are in the majority position or not, unless Heman you would not rather argue after such a fashion, which could only hurt your position].

    God saves or preserves by many or few, or even one.

    However to address, the evidence for Ephesians 3:9 KJB, it is found in:

    Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    D-1; Dabs, K, L,
    Cursives: MAJORITY
    Syriac: Harclean**
    Also extant in 049, 056, 078, 0142, 0150, 0151. - cited from Jack Moorman's - "A Closer Look at Early Manuscripts - The AV", page 129
    It is found in a TR collation itself -

    Ephesians 3:9 GNT TR - και φωτισαι παντας τις η κοινωνια του μυστηριου του αποκεκρυμμενου απο των αιωνων εν τω θεω τω τα παντα κτισαντι δια ιησου χριστου

    It is also in the Genevan and Tyndale Bibles:

    Ephesians 3:9 (1587 Geneva Bible) - And to make cleare vnto all men what the felowship of the mysterie is, which from the beginning of the world hath bene hid in God, who hath created all things by Iesus Christ,

    Ephesians 3:9 (1526 Tyndale) - and to make all men se what the felyshippe of the mistery is which from the begynnynge of the worlde hath bene hid in God which made all thynges thorow Iesus Christ
    That it is not in the Alexandrian mss and those which borrowed from/used such sources, codices is expected, since they are corrupt, such as the Aleph [Sinaiticus], A [Alexandrinus], B [Vaticanus] and Jeromes [corrupted] Latin Vulgate [all of which Roman Catholicism uses and the UBS and Eberhard Nestle/ Kurt and Barbara Aland's, aka NU text in some instnces, on whose committee is the Jesuit Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, S.J. - see - Comparison NA28 - UBS5 :: academic-bible.com

    Additionally, those mss, codices which do not contain the phrase, may be corrupted, 'emended', fragmented, torn, damaged in such locations [not that they all would have to be], and yet some would count that against the phrase. Therefore, be careful in what mss, etc you count towards it not being in.

    Ephesians, written by Paul, patterns similarly like Colossians:

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him [contextually Jesus Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, [contextually Jesus Christ] and for him [contextually Jesus Christ]:

    Colossians 1:16 GNT TR - οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα τα εν τοις ουρανοις και τα επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται
    There is not a single mss, codice, etc on earth which has the words "other" into Colossians 1:16, in any language, except the NWT ['translation']. Do you still want to argue from "majority"?

    Are you suggesting that the Son of the Father did not create anything, and thus creation of "all things" came not "by Jesus Christ", not "by him"?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  3. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Continuing on this detour, and excuses, let's look at the "greater" texts, and see what Jesus meant:

    Those which deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, will quote various texts in which Jesus says that the Father is “greater” than Himself, and by this, claim that it teaches that Jesus is not, by nature, God, but simply created.

    John 10:29 KJB - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    John 14:28 KJB - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

    Jesus is JEHOVAH God, the Son, even from eternity, “being in the form of God” and was always “equal” with [John 1:1-3; 1 John 1:1-3 KJB, etc] God the Father, yet He also took upon Himself the flesh of man-kind, and “humbled” Himself, and took the “form of a servant”:

    Philippians 2:1 KJB - If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

    Philippians 2:2 KJB - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

    Philippians 2:3 KJB - Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

    Philippians 2:4 KJB - Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    Philippians 2:5 KJB - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    Philippians 2:6 KJB - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Philippians 2:7 KJB - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    Philippians 2:8 KJB - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Philippians 2:9 KJB - Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    Philippians 2:10 KJB - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    Philippians 2:11 KJB - And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

    Jesus, the eternal Son of the Father, in a new way through the incarnation, voluntarily subjected Himself to the Father. This will even be the case in eternity – 1 Corinthians 15:28; Genesis 41:40 KJB [type, “only in the throne”, not nature [God], not a matter of Eternal Deity, not ‘age’, etc]. Throne is a matter of “office”, not nature. Jesus sits in the Throne of the Father:

    Revelation 3:21 KJB - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    1 Kings 2:12 KJB - Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.​

    Jesus, coming in Humanity, is also our example unto the Father, even in our relationship to God, for it was the character of the Father that Jesus came to show, by manifesting His name [character] unto all. Mankind was also made in “the image [and likeness] of God”. As a type, Adam the Figure, Male and Female, in Genesis. Both equal in Nature, but one [Body] in subjection to the Head. This is the way the Church is to be to Christ, and Wife to Husband, and Christ to the Father – 1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23 KJB. None of this detracts from the eternal nature of Jesus, nor of His Deity, God, for He is JEHOVAH Emmanuel – indeed God with us.

    Understanding this, is important in relationship to understanding how the Father is “greater” than Jesus, for it is not meant “greater” in nature to Jesus' Deity, for the nature of God is God, but it relates in at least two ways to the second nature:

    [1] His voluntary choice of taking upon Himself fallen flesh nature of man-kind

    [2] His voluntary servitude in that capacity​

    Now, since Jesus is in nature, both, God and man [1 Timothy 3:16 KJB - “... the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh ...”], consider how that Jesus has “made himself of no reputation” thereby “took upon him the form of a servant” and “humbled himself” unto God the Father, as a man. Is God greater than man? Yes. Is the Master greater than the servant? Yes, and so consider how the Bible uses the word “greater” in relationship to “Master” and “servant”:

    Luke 22:25 KJB - And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

    Luke 22:26 KJB - But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

    Luke 22:27 KJB - For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

    John 13:13 KJB - Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

    Joh 13:14 KJB - If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

    John 13:15 KJB - For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

    John 13:16 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    John 14:12 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    John 15:20 KJB - Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.​

    Notice, that Jesus is “greater”, even “Master and Lord”, “Lord and Master” of the Apostles and Disciples. Did the phrase “greater” refer to the nature of His humanity being greater than that of their humanity? Or, did it ever refer to the nature of the Father's Deity being greater than the nature of the Son's Deity? No. Jesus by very divinity, is in nature, God. The word is used in relationship to positions, the offices, the relationships, of the Master and the servant, and/or even Father and Son. Jesus, took upon Himself the position of "servant", and "took upon him[self] the form of a servant". Notice this. What nature was 'Jesus' in before taking upon Himself the "form of a servant"? Obviously above that, equal with the Father, the "form of God" nature. Jesus, did not lose the "form of God" nature, but took on a second nature over the first, comingling it mysteriously [of which no man may accurately describe, being called the "mystery of Godliness"].

    Now, when the word is used in relationship of Jesus' nature of Deity in comparison to that of the nature of man-kind, it is then that Jesus is greater in nature, as much as God's nature is infinitely superior to that of the nature of man-kind:

    Genesis 22:15 KJB - And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

    Genesis 22:16 KJB - And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

    Genesis 22:17 KJB - That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

    Hebrews 6:13 KJB - For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

    Hebrews 6:14 KJB - Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.​

    Finally, Jesus is eternally the Son of the Father. This is their eternal relationship, and as such, the Son has always honoured the Father above Himself, and eternally esteemed of Him, more highly than Himself:

    Exodus 20:12 KJB - Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

    Malachi 1:6 KJB - A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

    Philippians 2:3 KJB - Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.​

    Now, unto us, it is the same, notice, the office, not nature, for we are all to have the “divine nature”, the character of God, and the why, for it is by “charity” [1 Corinthians 13 KJB]:

    1 Thessalonians 5:12 KJB - And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

    1 Thessalonians 5:13 KJB - And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.​

    How then can God Himself, keep the Commandment, He Himself gave to us as a revelation of His character?

    1 Samuel 2:30 KJB - Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

    Matthew 12:50 KJB - For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.​
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  4. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    The son Jesus Christ did NOT create anything; God is the creator of all things. Isaiah 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is God!), who formed the earth and made it (He established it; He did not create it empty, He formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the LORD, and there is no other.
    Ephesians 3:9 The phrase, "by Jesus Christ", is left out in the Alexandrian and Claromontane copies, and in the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. [John Gill] by Jesus Christ. The texts omit. [Bullinger] But the words δια Ιησου Χριστου, by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. [John Gill] By Jesus Christ - As this stands in our common Greek text, as well as in our English version, there is a striking resemblance between the passage and that in Colossians 1:15-16. But the phrase is missing in the Vulgate, the Syriac, the Coptic, and in several of the ancient mss. Mill remarks that it was probably inserted here by some transcriber from the parallel passage in Colossians 1:16; For in him all things were created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created for him, and through him: and it is rejected as an interpolation by Griesbach.[ Barnes] AS God created “the whole range of things” (so the Greek), physical and spiritual alike, He must have an absolute right to adjust all things as He will. Hence, we may see His right to keep the mystery of world-wide salvation in Christ “hidden in Himself,” till his own good time for revealing it. The oldest manuscripts omit “by Jesus Christ.” [Jamieson-Fausset Brown]
    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [from the dead] of every creature: Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, of the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might be first. Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, for whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
     
  5. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    If you do not repent of your error Heman, and I say this with great heaviness and sorrow of heart, you will die in your sins:

    John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.​

    Why?

    1 John 5:10 KJB - He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    Jesus Himself was clear:

    John 5:18 KJB - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    John 5:23 KJB - That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.​

    As shown to you from numerous texts, Jesus is God, not the Father, but the Son.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    I showed this to you from Genesis 1:1 KJB, HOT itself, and further therein. God, the Father, "said", while the Son, was "with" ["I was there", Proverbs 8:27 KJB] even "brought up with" ["I [the Son] was by Him [the Father]" Proverbs 8:30 KJB] the Father "in the beginning", and at the speaking/command/direction of the Father who "said", then Son then "made", and the Holy Ghost "moved" and was "breathed" ...

    Again, in Hebrews, speaking of the Father and of the Son, by whom all the worlds were made at command, speaking, direction of the Father:

    Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    Again, Hebrews demonstrates that the eternal Father spake and the eternal Son, obedient to and honouring His Father, "made" all things.

    Again, notice, Father, Son [the hand of the Father] and Holy Ghost [aka, the Finger of God; Exodus 8:19, 31:18; Deuteronomy 9:10; Matthew 12:28; Luke 11:20 KJB]:

    Acts 7:49 KJB - Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

    Acts 7:50 KJB - Hath not my hand made all these things?

    Isaiah 66:1 KJB - Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

    Isaiah 66:2 KJB - For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

    Isaiah 64:8 KJB - But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

    Job 12:9 KJB - Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

    Job 12:10 KJB - In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    Acts 7:51 KJB - Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.​

    Again:

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Jesus is the visible God. JEHOVAH E/Immanuel, JEHOVAH Jesus, JEHOVAH manifested in the flesh, even God manifest in the flesh of mankind.
    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;​
    Since, Heman, you like the words of men [commentaries, which seem to suit your purpose in one place, but not in others, for the very works you cite of those men, whom are all 'trinitarian' of one definition or another, and each believed Jesus was Deity, God, and all things were made by Him, but will you cite those places in John 1:1, and elsewhere where they so teach? Of course not. You are deceiving yourself, and attempting to deceive others by your half-truths, and cherry-picked citations], rather than the words of God, why do you not cite me a single commentary, a single mss, codice, papyri, palimpsest, in any language, let alone Koine Greek, for Colossians 1:15-19 to have the words "other" in it. You will find none, except you, yourself write it there.

    Again, you have deceived yourself.

    I cite your same authors [not as authority for me, as I need not commentries as such] on John 1:1, because every commentary you choose, will be a double edged sword against your throat and at your heart, ready to slay every dissembling:

    John Gill on John 1:1:

    "... was God;
    not made a God, as he is said here after to be made flesh; nor constituted or appointed a God, or a God by office; but truly and properly God, in the highest sense of the word, as appears from the names by which he is called; as Jehovah, God, our, your, their, and my God, God with us, the mighty God, God over all, the great God, the living God, the true God, and eternal life; and from his perfections, and the whole fulness of the Godhead that dwells in him, as independence, eternity, immutability, omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence; and from his works of creation and providence, his miracles, the work of redemption, his forgiving sins, the resurrection of himself and others from the dead, and the administration of the last judgment; and from the worship given him, as prayer to him, faith in him, and the performance of baptism in his name: nor is it any objection to the proper deity of Christ, that the article is here wanting; since when the word is applied to the Father, it is not always used, and even in this chapter, ( John 1:6 John 1:13 John 1:18 ) and which shows, that the word "God", is not the subject, but the predicate of this proposition, as we render it: so the Jews often use the word of the Lord for Jehovah, and call him God. ..."​

    E. W. Bullinger on John 1:1:

    "... the Word was God. This is correct. The Art. designates "the Word" as the subject. The order of the words has to do only with the emphasis, which is thus placed on the predicate, while "the Word "is the subject.

    was God. Here "God "is without the Art., because it denotes the conception of God as Infinite, Eternal, Perfect, Almighty, &c. Contrast John 4:24. ..."​

    Albert Barnes on John 1:1:

    "... Was God - In the previous phrase John had said that the Word was “with God.” Lest it should be supposed that he was a different and inferior being, here John states that “he was God.” There is no more unequivocal declaration in the Bible than this, and there could be no stronger proof that the sacred writer meant to affirm that the Son of God was equal with the Father; because:

    1.There is no doubt that by the λόγος Logosis meant Jesus Christ.

    2.This is not an “attribute” or quality of God, but is a real subsistence, for it is said that the λόγος Logoswas made flesh σάρξ sarx- that is, became a human being.

    3.There is no variation here in the manuscripts, and critics have observed that the Greek will bear no other construction than what is expressed in our translation - that the Word “was God.”

    4.There is no evidence that John intended to use the word “God” in an inferior sense. It is not “the Word was a god,” or “the Word was ‹like God,‘” but the Word “was God.” He had just used the word “God” as evidently applicable to Yahweh, the true God; and it is absurd to suppose that he would in the same verse, and without any indication that he was using the word in an inferior sense, employ it to denote a being altogether inferior to the true God.

    5.The name “God” is elsewhere given to him, showing that he is the supreme God. See Romans 9:5; Hebrews 1:8, Hebrews 1:10, Hebrews 1:12; 1 John 5:20; John 20:28.

    The meaning of this important verse may then be thus summed up:

    1.The name λόγος Logosor Word, is given to Christ in reference to his becoming the Teacher or Instructor of mankind; the medium of communication between God and man.

    2.The name was in use at the time of John, and it was his design to state the correct doctrine respecting the λόγος LogosThe “Word,” or λόγος Logosexisted “before creation” - of course was not a “creature,” and must have been, therefore, from eternity.

    4.He was “with God” - that is, he was united to him in a most intimate and close union before the creation; and, as it could not be said that God was “with himself,” it follows that the λόγος Logoswas in some sense distinct from God, or that there was a distinction between the Father and the Son. When we say that one is “with another,” we imply that there is some sort of distinction between them.

    5.Yet, lest it should be supposed that he was a “different” and “inferior” being - a creature - he affirms that he was God - that is, was equal with the Father.

    This is the foundation of the doctrine of the Trinity:

    1.that the second person is in some sense “distinct” from the first.

    2.that he is intimately united with the first person in essence, so that there are not two or more Gods.

    3.that the second person may be called by the same name; has the same attributes; performs the same works; and is entitled to the same honors with the first, and that therefore he is “the same in substance, and equal in power and glory,” with God. ..."
    Jamieson, Faussett and Brown on John 1:1:

    "... was God--in substance and essence GOD; or was possessed of essential or proper divinity. Thus, each of these brief but pregnant statements is the complement of the other, correcting any misapprehensions which the others might occasion. Was the Word eternal? It was not the eternity of "the Father," but of a conscious personal existence distinct from Him and associated with Him. Was the Word thus "with God?" It was not the distinctness and the fellowship of another being, as if there were more Gods than one, but of One who was Himself God--in such sense that the absolute unity of the God head, the great principle of all religion, is only transferred from the region of shadowy abstraction to the region of essential life and love. But why all this definition? Not to give us any abstract information about certain mysterious distinctions in the Godhead, but solely to let the reader know who it was that in the fulness of time "was made flesh." After each verse, then, the reader must say, "It was He who is thus, and thus, and thus described, who was made flesh." ..."
    Yes, every person who believes in the Deity and eternality of the Father, the Son [Jesus] and the Holy Spirit do not in any way disagree with these texts, but fully agree with what they teach, that there is not other JEHOVH Elohiym, but JEHOVAH Elohiym, though some may have a slight misunderstanding of what that entails.

    JEHOVAH [name, character] Elohiym [3 persons]. At-one-ment. Not a single person, but 3 persons. Not a three-headed hydra. Not one person masquerading as three persons. Not a ventriliquist.

    Matthew 28:19 KJB - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Matthew 28:19 GNT TR - πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος​

    The name of God, represents His character:

    Exodus 33:18 KJB - And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

    Exodus 33:19 KJB - And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

    Exodus 33:20 KJB - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

    Exodus 33:21 KJB - And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

    Exodus 33:22 KJB - And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

    Exodus 33:23 KJB - And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    Exodus 34:1 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

    Exodus 34:2 KJB - And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

    Exodus 34:3 KJB - And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

    Exodus 34:4 KJB - And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

    Exodus 34:5 KJB - And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

    Exodus 34:6 KJB - And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

    Exodus 34:7 KJB - Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    Exodus 34:8 KJB - And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.​

    The very name [singular], being the character and Glory of God, JEHOVAH, is shared amongst the persons [multiplicity] of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

    [the singular name]

    [KJB] “... in the name ...”

    [GNT] “... εἰς τὸ ὄνομα ...”​

    This is singular and definite [article], yet there is seen plurality of persons which all share/have it. Three distinct definite [article] persons to be specific, each joined by the “and” [“kai”] construct:

    [1st “person”]

    [KJB] “... of the Father, ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... του πατρος ...”

    [KJB] “... and ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... και ...”
    [2nd “person”]

    [KJB] “... of the Son, ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... του υιου ...”


    [KJB] “... and ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... και ...”​

    [3rd “person”]

    [KJB] “... of the Holy Ghost ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... του αγιου πνευματος ...”​

    The Father, the Son - Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equally, even essentially, in nature, “God” [though these three persons, are not the person of the other], like as those of man-kind are equally, even essentially, in nature “man”. Jesus is equally God and man, and this is called “the mystery of godliness”, while the other mystery in scripture is the “mystery of iniquity” [2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJB]:

    1 Timothy 3:16 KJB - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

    The doctrine of Godhead, as taught in Matthew 28:19 KJB, is revealed all throughout the King James Bible:

    Matthew 28:19 KJB - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Genesis 19:24 KJB -Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;​

    [Jesus, the LORD [JEHOVAH] who came down with the two covering cherubs, the two angels that are beside the LORD, is standing upon the earth [Genesis 18-19, especially 18:25 “Judge of all the Earth”] and calling down fire from His Father above, the Holy Spirit being included by the Fire also]

    2 Timothy 1:18 KJB - The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

    Psalms 110:1 KJB - [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

    [Jesus [JEHOVAH] speaking not only to David, but God the Father, speaking to the Son also [David being a type pointing to Christ], as seen in the NT, since the whole of Scripture testifies of the the Son [John 5:39 KJB]]

    Matthew 22:44 KJB - The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    Luke 20:42 KJB - And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    Acts 2:34 KJB - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    Psalms 22:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    Matthew 27:46 KJB - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Mark 15:34 KJB - And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Zechariah 3:2 KJB - And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

    Colossians 2:2 KJB - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Colossians 2:3 KJB - In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Ephesians 5:20 KJB - Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    Colossians 3:17 KJB - And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    1 Thessalonians 3:11 KJB - Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.​

    Now, consider the definition of “one” in regards God, the disciples, marriage, covenant and atonement:

    Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Deuteronomy 6:4 HOT [read from Right to Left] - שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃
    Side note:

    The Hebrew word [H259] “אחד”, “'echâd” is not, [H905] “בּד”, “bad” nor, [H3173] “יחיד”, “yâchı̂yd”.​

    Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100]

    Deuteronomy 6:4 LXX* - “... Ἄκουε, Ισραηλ· κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν·”
    The Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB passage is quoted in the New Testament itself:

    Mark 12:29 KJB - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    Mark 12:29 GNT - ὁ δὲ ᾿Ιησοῦς ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὅτι πρώτη πάντων ἐντολὴ· ἄκουε, ᾿Ισραήλ, Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν Κύριος εἷς ἐστι·
    This is clearly explained in more detail in 1 John 5:7,8 KJB, the "are one" is defined by the next verse, "agree in one", meaning they three are one in purpose, etc, not person:

    1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1 John 5:7 GNT - ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος και τὸ ῞Αγιον Πνεύμα, καὶ οὗτοι οι τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι·

    1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    1 John 5:8 GNT - καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οι μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ, τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.​

    Side note:

    1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

    The evidence:

    [1] Manuscripts [MSS]

    Cursives [Greek lowercase]:

    [01] #61 [aka Codex Montfortianus] - 16th Cent.
    [02] #88 [aka Codex Regis [margin, 16th Cent.]] - 12th Cent.
    [03] #177 [BSB Codex graeci 211 [margin, 15th Cent.] - 11th Cent.
    [04] #221 [margin, 15th/16th Cent.] - 10th Cent.
    [05] #429 [aka Codex Wolfenbuttel, margin, 16th Cent.] - 14th Cent.
    [06] #629 [aka Codex Ottobonianus] - 14th Cent.
    [07] #535 - 11th Cent.
    [08] #636 [margin] - 15th Cent.
    [09] #918 - 16th Cent.
    [10] #2318 - 18th Cent.
    [11] #2473 - 18th Cent.​

    Latin:​

    [01] c [aka Codex Colbertinus, aka 6, 12th/13th Cent. [1200]]
    [02] dem [aka Codex Demidovianus, aka 59, 13th Cent. [1250]]
    [03] div [aka Codex Divionensis, aka –, 13th Cent. [1250]]
    [04] l [aka Codex Legionensis, aka 67, 7th Cent. [750]]
    [05] m [aka Codex Speculum, aka –, 4th-9th Cent.]
    [06] p [aka Codex Perpinianensis, aka 54, 12th/13th Cent. [1150]]
    [07] q [aka Codex Frisingensis, aka 64, 7h Cent. [650]]
    [08] r [aka Codex Frisingensis, aka 64, 5th/6th Cent.]
    [09] Vulgate [Clementine edition]
    [10] La Cava Bible [aka Codex Cavensis [9th Cent.]]
    [11] Codex Ulmensis [9th Cent.]
    [12] C [aka Codex Complutensis, 10th Cent.]
    [13] T [aka Codex Toletanus, 10th Cent.]
    [14] Θ [Codex Theodulphianus, 10th Cent.]
    [15] S 907 [aka Codex Sangallensis 907, 8th Cent.]
    [16] S 63 [aka Codex Sangallensis 63, 9th Cent.]​

    “testimonium dicunt [or dant] in terra, spiritus [or: spiritus et] aqua et sanguis, et hi tres unum sunt in Christo Iesu. [8] et tres sunt, qui testimonium dicunt in caelo, pater verbum et spirtus.”​

    [2] “Church Fathers” [so-called]

    [01] Tertullian [circa. AD 220]

    [02] Cyprian of Carthage [circa. AD 258], Treatises (I 5:423): “... and again it is written of the Father, , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, , 'And these three are one.' ...”

    [03] Priscillan [circa. AD 358]

    [04] The Speculum [5th Cent.], Pseudo-Augustine

    [05] Creed “Esposito Fidei [5th/6th Cent.]

    [06] Old Latin [5th/6th Cent.]

    [07] Confession of Faith of Eugenius, Bishop of Carthage [circa. AD 484]

    [08] Cassiodoris of Italy [circa. AD 480-570] in Complexiones in Ionis Epist. ad Parthos.

    also (these three with some variation), Cyprian, Ps-Cyprian, & Priscillian (died 385) Liber Apologeticus. And Contra-Varimadum, and Ps-Vigilius, Fulgentius of Ruspe (died 527) Responsio contra Arianos​

    [3] Lectionaries

    [01] “some minority variant readings in lectionaries.”​

    “… “at least four Old Latin manuscripts, over eight ‘Church Fathers’ (including Cyprian who died A.D. 258), four Syriac editions, Slavic and Armenian manuscripts, over 600 distinct editions of the Textus Receptus from 1522 to 1881, 18 pre-Lutheran Bibles, and thousands of Vulgate manuscripts. Among Greek manuscripts which do omit this verse, 97% are late manuscripts, dated from the 10th century and later.”1 …” - Ridiculous KJV Bible Corrections - 1 John 5:7 Scams

    “… Some Syriac Peshitto manuscripts, The Syriac Edition at Hamburg, Bishop Uscan’s Armenian Bible, the Armenian Edition of John Zohrob, the first printed Georgian Bible.

    Early Latin witnesses include:
    1) Tertullian who died in 220 A.D.
    2) Cyprian of Carthage who died in 258 A.D.
    3) Priscillan who died in 358 A.D.
    4) The Speculum - Fifth century
    5) A creed called Esposito Fidei - Fifth or sixth century
    6) Old Latin - Fifth or sixth century
    7) A Confession of Faith of Eugenius, Bishop of Carthage (484 A.D.)
    8) Cassiodoris of Italy (480-570 A.D.)

    Nine Manuscripts which contain 1 John 5:7-8:
    #61 - Sixteenth century
    #88 - Twelfth century
    #221 - Tenth century
    #429 - Fourteenth century
    #629 - Fourteenth century
    #535 - Eleventh century
    #636 - Fifteenth century
    #918 - Sixteenth century
    #2318 - Eighteenth century

    The evidence is overwhelming for the authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8. Keep in mind that it was Origen who was the father of the false manuscripts who removed this verse as he did verses like Acts 8:37 and Luke 24:40. The Alexandrian school was no friend of the true manuscripts which were taken from Antioch and mutilated according to Gnostic beliefs.” - http://www.scionofzion.com/1 john 5 78.htm

    Remember, God preserves [Psalms 12:6,7KJB, etc] by many, few, or even just one. Majority is never the default given. Neither the minorty, or even the one.

    Marriage, in the King James Bible, uses these very same words to describe the at-one-ment of two persons of man-kind, a male and female in covenant relationship with God:

    Genesis 2:24 KJB - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

    Genesis 2:24 HOT [read from Right to Left] - על־כן יעזב־אישׁ את־אביו ואת־אמו ודבק באשׁתו והיו לבשׂר אחד׃​

    Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100]

    Genesis 2:24 LXX* - ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.​

    See how “they”, being before “twain”, that is to say two persons, one male and one female, are to be after the marriage covenant, “one”:

    Matthew 19:5 KJB - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

    Matthew 19:5 GNT TR - καὶ εἶπεν, ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ κολληθήσεται τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν;

    Matthew 19:6 KJB - Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Matthew 19:6 GNT TR - ὥστε οὐκέτι εἰσὶ δύο, ἀλλὰ σὰρξ μία. ὃ οὖν ὁ Θεὸς συνέζευξεν, ἄνθρωπος μὴ χωριζέτω.

    Mark 10:6 KJB - But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    Mark 10:6 GNT TR- ἀπὸ δὲ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν αὐτούς ὁ Θεός·

    Mark 10:7 KJB - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

    Mark 10:7 GNT TR - ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ,

    Mark 10:8 KJB - And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

    Mark 10:8 GNT TR - καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν. ὥστε οὐκέτι εἰσὶ δύο, ἀλλὰ μία σάρξ·

    Mark 10:9 KJB - What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Mark 10:9 GNT TR - ὃ οὖν ὁ Θεὸς συνέζευξεν ἄνθρωπος μὴ χωριζέτω.

    1 Corinthians 6:16 KJB - What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 6:16 GNT TR - ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ὁ κολλώμενος τῇ πόρνῃ ἓν σῶμά ἐστιν; ἔσονται γάρ, φησίν, οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν·

    1 Corinthians 6:17 KJB - But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    1 Corinthians 6:17 GNT TR - ὁ δὲ κολλώμενος τῷ Κυρίῳ ἓν πνεῦμά ἐστι.

    Ephesians 5:31 KJB - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    Ephesians 5:31 GNT TR - ἀντὶ τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.​

    They, which are entered into the marriage covenant, are to be one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. This is how Jesus Christ even spoke of Himself and the Father, along with Himself and the Disciples, and even with the disciples amongst themselves, togetherness in mind, in purpose, in harmony, but not in person:

    John 10:30 KJB - I and my Father are one.

    John 10:30 GNT TR - εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν

    John 17:11 KJB - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:11 GNT TR - καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ οὗτοι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ εἰσί, κἀγὼ πρὸς σὲ ἔρχομαι. πάτερ ἅγιε, τήρησον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς.

    John 17:21 KJB - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    John 17:21 GNT TR - ἵνα πάντες ἓν ὦσι, καθὼς σύ, πάτερ, ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν σοί, ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν ἡμῖν ἓν ὦσιν, ἵνα ὁ κόσμος πιστεύῃ ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας.

    John 17:22 KJB - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    John 17:22 GNT TR - κἀγὼ τὴν δόξαν ἢν δέδωκάς μοι δέδωκα αὐτοῖς, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς ἕν ἐσμεν,​

    This is what prophecy said would be:

    Ezekiel 11:19 KJB - And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

    Ezekiel 11:19 HOT [read from Right to Left] - ונתתי להם לב אחד ורוח חדשׁה אתן בקרבכם והסרתי לב האבן מבשׂרם ונתתי להם לב בשׂר׃​

    Other passages which also speak of togetherness of multiplicity:

    Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Genesis 11:4 KJB - And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

    Genesis 11:5 KJB - And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

    Genesis 11:7 KJB - Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    Nehemiah 8:1 KJB - And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

    Isaiah 6:8 KJB - Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

    Joshua 9:2 KJB - That they gathered themselves together, to fight with Joshua and with Israel, with one accord.

    Matthew 18:19 KJB - Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 3:11 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    Acts 1:14 KJB - These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

    Acts 2:1 KJB - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    Acts 2:46 KJB - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

    Acts 4:24 KJB - And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

    Acts 5:12 KJB - And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

    Acts 7:57 KJB - Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

    Acts 8:6 KJB - And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

    Acts 12:20 KJB - And Herod was highly displeased with them of Tyre and Sidon: but they came with one accord to him, and, having made Blastus the king's chamberlain their friend, desired peace; because their country was nourished by the king's country.

    Acts 15:15 KJB - And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

    Acts 15:25 KJB - It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

    Acts 18:12 KJB - And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,

    Acts 19:29 KJB - And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.

    Romans 12:16 KJB - Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

    Romans 15:6 KJB - That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 1:10 KJB - Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    2 Corinthians 13:11 KJB - Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

    Ephesians 4:3 KJB - Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

    Ephesians 4:4 KJB - There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Philippians 1:27 KJB - Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

    Philippians 2:2 KJB - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

    Philippians 4:2 KJB - I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

    1 Peter 3:8 KJB - Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

    1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

    As seen, even the wicked can be in a similar state:

    Revelation 17:13 KJB - These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    Revelation 17:13 GNT TR - οὗτοι μίαν γνώμην ἔχουσι, καὶ τὴν δύναμιν καὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν αὐτῶν τῷ θηρίῳ διδόασιν.

    Revelation 17:17 KJB - For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    Revelation 17:17 GNT TR - ὁ γὰρ Θεὸς ἔδωκεν εἰς τὰς καρδίας αὐτῶν ποιῆσαι τὴν γνώμην αὐτοῦ, καὶ ποιῆσαι μίαν γνώμην καὶ δοῦναι τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτῶν τῷ θηρίῳ ἄχρι τελεσθῶσιν οἱ λόγοι τοῦ Θεοῦ.​

    The Bible [King James Bible for English] is a specific example of this “at-one-ment”, itself not only being a work of God and man-kind [even as Jesus is God and man], it is also “one” book, being many books, many prophets, many people, that all agree in one, even as the “law” and the “testimony” agree together with one mind, one purpose, though they are God's “two witnesses” [plural] agreeing together in witness [singular].

    The 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, though each a differing personal witness, all agree together when compared prayerfully:

    Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    John 8:17 KJB - It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

    Acts 10:43 KJB - To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Acts 15:15 KJB - And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

    Romans 3:21 KJB - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    2 Corinthians 13:1 KJB - This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

    Etc.​

    These are God's own standard for testimony, or witness. This is why there must always be 2 or 3 persons to witness. Jesus Himself stated that this is the way it was to always be:

    John 5:31 KJB - If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

    John 8:13 KJB - The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

    John 8:14 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

    John 8:18 KJB - I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.​

    Christ Jesus, the Son, was sent of the Father to witness and testify of the Love and character of God the Father:

    John 14:7 KJB - If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    John 17:6 KJB - I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.​

    Therefore, Jesus can only testify of the very character [name, etc] of JEHOVAH God the Father, if He [Jesus] Himself had been eternal, and JEHOVAH God, ever being “with” [John 1:1-3, etc KJB] the Father and Holy Spirit from everlasting.

    If Jesus were not God, even JEHOVAH the Son, neither Eternal, neither self-existant having Life within Himself, being original, unborrowed, underived, neither having His own Will, He could never testify of the True eternal character of the Father unto men, or any being, for how could He ever actually know in verity?

    Think about this for a moment.

    If Jesus, as some erroneously and perhaps ignorantly, through lack of knowledge, teach, came into existence at some point in eternity past from nothing by the will of the Father, not only would John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”, be broken, but then He [Jesus] could never be “the True Witness” [Revelation 3:14 KJB], for a True Witness can only testify of what He has seen/heard/experienced. Yet it is written:

    John 3:11 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.​

    They are not showing "Majority" of mss, but rather showing only the supposed 'oldest'. Again, even if older, and there is dispute on this from several angles, but even if granted as older, older is not automatically more accurate, or more reliable, especially in the cases of Aleph [Sinaiticus], B [Vaticanus] and A [Alexandrinus], etc. They are known to be corrupt, 'emmended' [changed, erased, copied over, etc] in thousands of places and in the case of Sinaiticus, it contains both the 'Epistle of Barnabus' and the 'Shepherd of Hermas', both of which are gnostic materials. Major portions of those codices, etc., are missing - Codex Sinaiticus - Wikipedia &

    "... Burgon was permitted to examine the codex for an hour and a half in 1860, consulting 16 different passages.[115] Burgon was a defender of the Traditional Text and for him Codex Vaticanus, as well as codices Sinaiticus and Codex Bezae, were the most corrupt documents extant. He felt that each of these three codices "clearly exhibits a fabricated text – is the result of arbitrary and reckless recension."[116] The two most widely respected of these three codices, א and B, he likens to the "two false witnesses" of Matthew 26:60.[117] ... " - Codex Vaticanus - Wikipedia and etc.​

    Do you even know who Johann Jakob Greisbach is? He was a "textual critic", and attacked the word of God.

    "... [James] Strong boasts that Griesbach, “constantly displays a very decided preference for the Alexandrian class” of manuscripts. “His ultimate choice of reading is consequently determined by the testimony of Origen...” (vol. 3, p. 1009). ..." - http://nashpublications.com/wp-cont...nger_Books/Greek-and-Hebrew-Study-Dangers.pdf

    "... [James] Strong admits that “Griesbach was long and severely attacked by Trinitarian writers as an opposer of the doctrine of Christ’s divinity...In consequence of these and other points in his critical works, the commendation and patronage of the Unitarians were bestowed upon him” (vol. 3, p. 1010). ... " - http://nashpublications.com/wp-cont...nger_Books/Greek-and-Hebrew-Study-Dangers.pdf

    Origen was as Gnostic. Griesbach followed this thinking, which helped to lay the foundation for Westcott and Hort's [recension] errors and fantasies [most of which are rejected today even by the 'ciritics' themselves].

    I have already shown to you the massive mss evidence which supports the KJB on "by Jesus Christ." Greisbach was a critic and skeptic, and the others you have cited are merely listing evidence, not necessarily favoring that evidence.

    John Gill on Colossians 1:16, parallel to Ephesians 3:9:

    "... all things were created by him, by Christ, even all the angels; and therefore he, and not they, are to be worshipped, a notion he afterwards takes notice of in the following chapter: and as all things are affirmed to be created by him, which demonstrates the dignity and deity of his person, so likewise ..."
    Albert Barnes on Colossians 1:16, parallel to Ephesians 3:9:

    "... All things were created by him - The repetition, and the varied statement here, are designed to express the truth with emphasis, and so that there could not be the possibility of mistake or misapprehension; compare the notes at John 1:1-3. The importance of the doctrine, and the fact that it was probably denied by false teachers, or that they held philosophical opinions that tended to its practical denial, are the reasons why the apostle dwells so particularly on this point. ..."
    Notice what John Gill said on Ephesains 3:9, just before his notation [not his approval of the Alexandrian codices] of "by Jesus Christ":

    "... who created all things by Jesus Christ; not as an instrument, but as a co-efficient cause: and this is to be understood, not of the new creation, but of the old, and of all things in it; for without Christ, was not anything made that is made. ..."
    John Gill did not agree with those Alexandrian codices, just cited their difference and that's it.

    Adam Clarke, less inclined to believe in the preservation of God's word, even still said in the same paragraph:

    "... No inferiority of Christ can be argued from a clause ..."​

    Therefore, Heman, you argue beyond what Adam Clarke himself argued.

    Again, the citation in Jamieson, Faussett and Brown on Ephesians 3:9, merely cites the Alexandrian codices lack, but did not weigh in on their validity of that lack, but rather only just cited their difference with the preserved text. Therefore, again, Heman, you argue beyond what they stated.

    The 'commentary' by E. W. Bullinger on this point of Ephesians 3:9, doesn't even bother to list evidences of mss, etc, either for or against, just says, "The texts omit." He doesn't say which texts omit, nor say that they were better, more accurate, etc., neither does he say which texts preserved it [which by the way was the MAJORITY, ec as already demonstrated to you].

    Why not cite others which make no mention of those corrupted codices, but accept the preserved words, as:

    Matthew Henry in his commentary on Ephesians 3:9:

    "... who created all things by Jesus Christ: as Joh_1:3, All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made; and therefore no wonder that he saves the Gentiles as well as the Jews; for he is the common Creator of them both: and we may conclude that he is able to perform the work of their redemption, seeing he was able to accomplish the great work of creation. It is true that both the first creation, when God made all things out of nothing, and the new creation, whereby sinners are made new creatures by converting grace, are of God by Jesus Christ ..."
    John Calvin on Ephesians 3:9:

    "... Who created all things by Jesus Christ. This cannot so properly be understood of the first creation as of the spiritual renewal. It is, no doubt, true, and is frequently declared in Scripture, that by the Word of God all things were created; but the connection of the passage lays us under the necessity of understanding by it that renewal which is comprehended in the blessing of redemption. But it may, perhaps, be thought that the apostle is illustrating this renewal, by an argument drawn from the creation. “By Christ, as God, the Father created (John 1:3) all things; and why, then, should we wonder, if by Christ, as Mediator, all the Gentiles are now brought back to one body?” I have no objection to this view. A similar argument is used by him in another Epistle. ..."
    Matthew Poole on Ephesians 3:9:

    "... Who created all things by Jesus Christ; this may be understood either of the first creation, or the second, or immediately of the first, and by that of the second; as God created all things at first, (and so both Jews and Gentiles), and gave them their being, by Christ, John 1:3; so he recreates, regenerates, and gives them a new being, by Christ, that they may be of the same body under him: see the like, 2 Corinthians 4:6. ..."
    Eadie's commentary on Ephesains 3:9, after listing the ommitted textual evidence in Latin and other languages, then says that they are found in the Greek 'fathers':

    "... They ["by Jesus Christ [Greek]] occur, however, in the Greek fathers, such as Chrysostom, Theophylact, and OEcumenius. ..."​

    Why? It is because you pick and choose your evidence to suit your self-deception.

    Those who understand the Deity, eternal God nature of the Son [Jesus] agree with all of those texts, and I already demonstrated to you what they say.

    Of course the Head of Christ is God the Father, Jesus is the Son of the Father, and already demonstrated this to you, in that the Son has always Honoured and Glorified the Father above Himself, just as the Father Honours and Glorifies the Son. That makes His nature ... then God.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB, is the expansion of Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29 KJB, wherein Paul demonstrates that those passages are speaking of more than a single person, who each are God, Deity - "JEHOVAH" Elohiym:

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 GNT TR - αλλ ημιν εις θεος ο πατηρ εξ ου τα παντα και ημεις εις αυτον και εις κυριος ιησους χριστος δι ου τα παντα και ημεις δι αυτου

    Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Deuteronomy 6:4 HOT - שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃

    Mark 12:29 KJB - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    Mark 12:29 GNT TR - ο δε ιησους απεκριθη αυτω οτι πρωτη πασων των εντολων ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν
    I have already demonstrated to you what the Bible means by "one" - at-one-ment, "agree in one", etc. Thus JEHOVAH the Father, JEHOVAH E/Imannuel [JEHOVAH Jesus] and the Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH are three persons, but at-one-ment, "agree in one", etc, but are three persons all in unison working together, without strife evere between them, perfect harmony, perfect symphony, perfect chord, the eternal True Witnesses.

    Without Jesus' resurrection, none could hope to have a resurrection from the dead, thus he is the "firstborn" [the pre-eminently resurrected] from the dead. I gave you an entire respons on the "firstborn" meanings in scripture [KJB]. Did you read it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  6. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    1 Corinthians 1:3 But I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Each single individual 1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. The Holy Spirit is not a person but it is that Power that flows and emanates from God. 1 John 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood;["and these three agree."] NOT found in the early manuscripts but was added later by a transcriber! And these three agree in one - εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν. deleted "The Emphatic Diaglott pdf"
    Lets read the whole thing without cherry picking: Jesus Is Equal with God; John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. The Authority of the Son John 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood. John 8:15-16 'Ye according to the flesh do judge; I do not judge any one," nor should you! NOW read the rest of it: "but I and the Father who sent me"; John 8:26-27 many things I have to speak concerning you and to judge, but He who sent me is true, and I—what things I heard from Him—these I say to the world.' They knew not that of the Father he spake to them; Jesus, therefore, said to them, 'When ye may lift up the Son of Man then ye will know that I am he ; and of myself I do nothing, but according as my Father did teach me, these things I speak; John 1:3 All things were made on account of him, and besides him was not any thing made that was made. Thayer’s/Strong’s Number G1223; by reason of; on account of; G5565 χωρίς Thayer Definition: 1b) besides; 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by reason of him, yet the world did not know him. 14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, hath declared [Him]; 29 On the morrow he sees Jesus coming to him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. 34 And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God. 36 And, looking at Jesus as he walked, he says, Behold the Lamb of God.
     
  7. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    We agree with the texts as they are written, and I showed you what they are saying. Again, I recite what was written:

    "...1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB, is the expansion of Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29 KJB, wherein Paul demonstrates that those passages are speaking of more than a single person, who each are God, Deity - "JEHOVAH" Elohiym:

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 GNT TR - αλλ ημιν εις θεος ο πατηρ εξ ου τα παντα και ημεις εις αυτον και εις κυριος ιησους χριστος δι ου τα παντα και ημεις δι αυτου

    Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Deuteronomy 6:4 HOT - שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃

    Mark 12:29 KJB - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    Mark 12:29 GNT TR - ο δε ιησους απεκριθη αυτω οτι πρωτη πασων των εντολων ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν

    I have already demonstrated to you what the Bible means by "one" - at-one-ment, "agree in one", etc. Thus JEHOVAH the Father, JEHOVAH E/Imannuel [JEHOVAH Jesus] and the Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH are three persons, but at-one-ment, "agree in one", etc, but are three persons all in unison working together, without strife evere between them, perfect harmony, perfect symphony, perfect chord, the eternal True Witnesses. ..." - Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

    The NT text is explaining the meaning of the OT text in detail. Paul states that there are multiple persons being referred to in the Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB text.

    Let's add another text and compare once more to those texts:

    John 20:28 KJB - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    John 20:28 KJB - και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου​

    While the King James Bible is perfect in the way English reads, the koine Greek itself undermines the 4 excuses, by reading, “ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου”, which in harsh English, reads, 'the Lord of me and the God of me'.

    In fact, there is an Old Testament text which reads in a similar way, which will help us understand how to read the text:

    Psalms 35:23 KJB - Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord.​

    Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100].

    Psalms 35:23 (34:23) LXX* - ἐξεγέρθητι, κύριε, καὶ πρόσχες τῇ κρίσει μου, θεός μου καὶ ὁ κύριός μου, εἰς τὴν δίκην μου.​

    The understanding is obvious, and the language, other than reversed, is the very same. Jesus is both Lord and God, not the person of the Father, nor the person of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, but that of the person of the Son.

    Not so, consider briefly:

    Consider the name of Nehemiah, which means “JEHOVAH comforts” or “JEHOVAH is my Comforter”.

    The Holy Spirit is “another Comforter”, verily a Person, even as the Father and the Son [Jesus] are Comforters and are “Persons” [Deuteronomy 27:25; Matthew 27:24; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Hebrews 1:3 KJB]:

    John 14:16 KJB - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:26 KJB - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 KJB - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 16:7 KJB - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

    The Holy Spirit is verily eternal JEHOVAH God, not the person of the Father, nor the person of the Son:

    Acts 5:3 KJB - But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

    Acts 5:4 KJB - Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

    Acts 5:9 KJB - Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.​

    The Holy Spirit wills and is omniscient:

    1 Corinthians 12:11 KJB - But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Colossians 2:2 KJB - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Colossians 2:3 KJB - In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    From the beginning:

    Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 KJB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.​

    The English word “moved” is translated from the Hebrew [H7363], “רחף”, “râchaph”:

    Total KJB Occurrences: 3

    fluttereth, 1

    Deuteronomy 32:10-11 (2)
    moved, 1

    Genesis 1:2
    shake, 1

    Jeremiah 23:9​

    This very same word is used by Moses in Deuteronomy, in his description [remember, inspired of the Holy Spirit] of JEHOVAH God, even as it was used in Genesis in regards the Spirit of God [the Holy Spirit]:

    Deuteronomy 32:4 KJB - He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    Deuteronomy 32:10 KJB - He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

    Deuteronomy 32:11 KJB - As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:

    Deuteronomy 32:12 KJB - So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.​

    God walks upon the the waters:

    Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 KJB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Job 9:8 KJB - Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

    Matthew 14:25 KJB - And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

    John 6:19 KJB - So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.​

    Job says:

    Job 33:4 KJB - The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.​

    Who spake and witnesses?:

    2 Samuel 23:2 KJB - The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

    2 Samuel 23:3 KJB - The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

    Acts 8:29 KJB - Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

    Romans 8:14 KJB - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Romans 8:16 KJB - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    Luke 4:1 KJB - And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    1 John 5:6 KJB - This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

    1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    Revelation 2:7 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Revelation 2:11 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation 2:17 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 2:29 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Revelation 3:6 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Revelation 3:13 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Revelation 3:22 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Revelation 14:13 KJB - And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    Revelation 22:17 KJB - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

    Some stumble over the Holy Spirit being called “it”, and by this claim that He is only a force, a power, a non-intelligence.

    Yet, they should also recognize that Jesus was called “it” [Revelation 12:4 KJB], “child” [Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB], “holy thing” [Luke 1:35 KJB] and “holy child” [Acts 4:27,30 KJB], all of which are also neuter gender. Jesus is still a person and masculine.

    Even the Father is given in neuter terminology "Ancient of Days" [Daniel 7:9,13,22 KJB], "person" [Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3 KJB], "God" [throughout], etc and none of that makes of Him a non-person, a non-being.

    The wicked angels are also called “it” [Luke 8:29, 9:39, 11:14, etc. KJB], but they too are intelligent [though created] beings and cited in the masculine. Neuter terms do not automatically mean inanimate, for instance, the terms “child”, “babe”, “person”, “mail-carrier”, “flight attendant”, etc.

    Notice the citations of the New Testament quoting Old Testament passages, who is still speaking?:

    Acts 28:25 KJB - And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

    Acts 28:26 KJB - Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

    Acts 28:27 KJB - For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

    Compare:

    Isaiah 6:8 KJB - Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

    Isaiah 6:9 KJB - And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

    Isaiah 6:10 KJB - Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
    Did you catch that? Acts says that in the OT it was the Holy Ghost who spake. In the OT text itself it says that it was the voice of the Lord speaking.

    Hebrews 10:15 KJB - Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    Hebrews 10:16 KJB - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    Hebrews 10:17 KJB - And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.​

    Compare:

    Jeremiah 31:31 KJB - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    Jeremiah 31:32 KJB - Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

    Jeremiah 31:33 KJB - But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Jeremiah 31:34 KJB - And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    Again, notice that Hebrews says that the Holy Ghost was speaking in the OT, and in the OT text being cited, it is JEHOVAH speaking. Hence the Holy Ghost is God, is a person.

    Hebrews 3:7 KJB - Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

    Hebrews 3:8 KJB - Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    Hebrews 3:9 KJB - When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

    Hebrews 3:10 KJB - Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

    Hebrews 3:11 KJB - So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)​

    Compare:

    Psalms 95:10 KJB - Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

    Psalms 95:11 KJB - Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

    Deuteronomy 1:34 KJB - And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,

    Deuteronomy 1:35 KJB - Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,

    Nehemiah 9:20 KJB - Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.

    Ezekiel 20:5 KJB - And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;

    Ezekiel 20:6 KJB - In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:

    Ezekiel 20:15 KJB - Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands;

    Isaiah 63:11 KJB - Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

    Isaiah 63:12 KJB - That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

    Isaiah 63:13 KJB - That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?

    Isaiah 63:14 KJB - As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.​

    Compare:

    Numbers 14:11 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

    Deuteronomy 32:12 KJB - So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

    1 Corinthians 3:16 KJB - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    1 Corinthians 3:17 KJB - If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    2 Corinthians 6:16 KJB - And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Compare:

    Exodus 29:45 KJB - And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.

    Exodus 29:46 KJB - And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

    Ezekiel 43:7 KJB - And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

    Ezekiel 43:9 KJB - Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

    Zechariah 2:10 KJB - Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

    Zechariah 2:11 KJB - And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.​

    Scripture was given by whom?:

    2 Peter 1:21 KJB - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

    The very Presence:

    Genesis 6:3 KJB - And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

    1 Peter 3:18 KJB - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    1 Peter 3:19 KJB - By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Psalms 51:11 KJB - Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    Psalms 51:12 KJB - Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

    Isaiah 63:10 KJB - But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

    Ephesians 4:30 KJB - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    More on this subject as needed.

    Again, 'early mss' doesn't mean anything, but one must consider the location, conditions of the texts themselves, comparing with other known sources [some call 'patristic'] etc if one were to judge by mss. However, that is not how God stated that He would preserve His words [Psalms 12:6,7 KJB].

    You also have no evidence that the text was added by a 'later' 'transcriber', but you have an apriori position, which is unfounded. The very structure of the Greek text itself in its masculine and neuter tenses requires it to have been original, besides the fact that they are preserved in the very book I hold in my hand today, the English King James Bible. God's promise has not failed, but there are many skeptics these days that parrot the serpent about this or that text and say, "Yea, hath God said ..." and places a much doubt here and there as he possibly can. How then can you tell where God's word is? Is it in an ancient mss, codice, papyri, palipmsest? If so, which one? They all differ here and there.

    Seems like you are still attemptin to even find the perfectly perserved words of God in the past. Surely you think it must be in the dusty hebrew and greek fragments somewhere, but where you cannot say, beause the moment you choose, another 'scholar' will come along and disagree with you, or 'new' evidence may overthrow your choice ...

    I don't have such a problem.

    For instance:

    You see, there is an example of one in the Bible which sought to destroy God's word:

    And they went in to the king into the court, but they laid up the roll in the chamber of Elishama the scribe, and told all the words in the ears of the king. - Jeremiah 36:20

    So the king sent Jehudi to fetch the roll: and he took it out of Elishama the scribe's chamber. And Jehudi read it in the ears of the king, and in the ears of all the princes which stood beside the king. - Jeremiah 36:21

    Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and [there was a fire] on the hearth burning before him. - Jeremiah 36:22

    And it came to pass, [that] when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast [it] into the fire that [was] on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that [was] on the hearth. - Jeremiah 36:23

    Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, [neither] the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words. - Jeremiah 36:24

    Nevertheless Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll: but he would not hear them. - Jeremiah 36:25

    Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying, - Jeremiah 36:27

    Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned. - Jeremiah 36:28

    And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast? - Jeremiah 36:29

    Notice Matthew 1:11:

    And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: - Matthew 1:11

    Notice who is suddenly 'missing'?

    Jehoiakim... (for it was Jehoiakim that begat Jechonias, and Josias the father of Jehoiakim (2 Kings 23:34; Jeremiah 1:3, 22:18, 25:1, 26:1, 27:1, 35:1, 36:1,9, 45:1, 46:2) and was Jechonias' grandfather (1 Chronicles 3:16; Jeremiah 22:24, 24:1, 27:20, 28:4, 37:1; "Coniah" = "Jeconiah/s")), but why?

    It was for what he did to the word of God; which was cutting it up into pieces and having it burned.

    On another note, some 'skeptics' , or even so-called Bible scholars [like the 'lawyers, scribes, etc of Jesus' day], try to point out in scripture, like this location, and say, “See, your Bible cannot be trusted, as it has gaps in the Genealogies, and therefore who knows how many persons are missing, etc, etc.” Yet, the only reason we know that there are so-called “gaps” in certain places like Matthew or elsewhere in the first place, is because those so-called “gaps” are filled in elsewhere, which means, there are no actual gaps in scripture [KJB].

    Also, this particular example is also good, because of what else it shows. Namely, that even though Jeremiah wrote [through Baruch; Jeremiah 36:1-4] the original note/letter and sent it to the King, from God, the King burned the original copy. Therefore, that “original manuscript” is forever lost [except God bring it back through miracle]. This goes to show that those who claim to only believe the “original manuscripts” do not know what they are talking about.

    Many “original manuscripts” are long gone, destroyed, burned, faded, erased, or re-used [called a 'palimpsest', scrape over a lambskin, etc and rewrite on top], buried at sea and eaten, and so on.

    God does not care so much about the “originals” as He does about simply “preserving” His word [see Psalms 12:6,7], generally through memory, copying, etc.

    Well, since the King cut up and burned [Jeremiah 36:23] the “original” manuscript copy of the letter by Jeremiah/Baurch, how then do we have a copy of it in scripture to read [Jeremiah 36]? Did you take notice all of the times that “scribes” are near at hand, making copies of what is said, or written? What was more important, the “original” or preserving what was said by God?

    Obviously preserving the words, not the “original” manuscript.

    Yet, this is not all, for we even see that God had Jeremiah/Baruch, write an “original” manuscript number 2, to repeat what was in the first “original” with even more words, see Jeremiah 36:28,32.

    Thus we now have “original” manuscript number 2.

    Yet this “original” manuscript is taken and tied to a stone and cast into the Euphrates river [Jeremiah 51:63], thus eliminating “original” manuscript number 2, by decree of God, through an angel. How then do we have those words in Jeremiah since the “original” manuscript 2 was purposefully destroyed at God's own command? Well, someone obviously made a copy of those words, either Jeremiah/Baruch, or a “scribe” in either the Temple or King's court, etc and thus we then have “original” manuscript number 3.

    Yet, to be sure, “original” manuscript number 3 is more than likely, as the other two, long since been disintegrated. It is not the “originals” that are important, but rather it is the preservation [by God] of those words which were given by God [Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21].

    Consider also the original Tables of Stone written upon by the finger of God, were broken by Moses [Exodus 32:19; Deuteronomy 9:17 KJB]. Was the medium of the material important as much as the words, or were the words to be preserved instead on a new medium [Exodus 34:1; Deuteronomy 10:2 KJB]?

    Again, you need to consider all of the evicence, not merely what you want:

    "... Side note:

    1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    The evidence:

    [1] Manuscripts [MSS]

    Cursives [Greek lowercase]:

    [01] #61 [aka Codex Montfortianus] - 16th Cent.
    [02] #88 [aka Codex Regis [margin, 16th Cent.]] - 12th Cent.
    [03] #177 [BSB Codex graeci 211 [margin, 15th Cent.] - 11th Cent.
    [04] #221 [margin, 15th/16th Cent.] - 10th Cent.
    [05] #429 [aka Codex Wolfenbuttel, margin, 16th Cent.] - 14th Cent.
    [06] #629 [aka Codex Ottobonianus] - 14th Cent.
    [07] #535 - 11th Cent.
    [08] #636 [margin] - 15th Cent.
    [09] #918 - 16th Cent.
    [10] #2318 - 18th Cent.
    [11] #2473 - 18th Cent.
    Latin:

    [01] c [aka Codex Colbertinus, aka 6, 12th/13th Cent. [1200]]
    [02] dem [aka Codex Demidovianus, aka 59, 13th Cent. [1250]]
    [03] div [aka Codex Divionensis, aka –, 13th Cent. [1250]]
    [04] l [aka Codex Legionensis, aka 67, 7th Cent. [750]]
    [05] m [aka Codex Speculum, aka –, 4th-9th Cent.]
    [06] p [aka Codex Perpinianensis, aka 54, 12th/13th Cent. [1150]]
    [07] q [aka Codex Frisingensis, aka 64, 7h Cent. [650]]
    [08] r [aka Codex Frisingensis, aka 64, 5th/6th Cent.]
    [09] Vulgate [Clementine edition]
    [10] La Cava Bible [aka Codex Cavensis [9th Cent.]]
    [11] Codex Ulmensis [9th Cent.]
    [12] C [aka Codex Complutensis, 10th Cent.]
    [13] T [aka Codex Toletanus, 10th Cent.]
    [14] Θ [Codex Theodulphianus, 10th Cent.]
    [15] S 907 [aka Codex Sangallensis 907, 8th Cent.]
    [16] S 63 [aka Codex Sangallensis 63, 9th Cent.]
    “testimonium dicunt [or dant] in terra, spiritus [or: spiritus et] aqua et sanguis, et hi tres unum sunt in Christo Iesu. [8] et tres sunt, qui testimonium dicunt in caelo, pater verbum et spirtus.”

    [2] “Church Fathers” [so-called]

    [01] Tertullian [circa. AD 220]

    [02] Cyprian of Carthage [circa. AD 258], Treatises (I 5:423): “... and again it is written of the Father, , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, , 'And these three are one.' ...”

    [03] Priscillan [circa. AD 358]

    [04] The Speculum [5th Cent.], Pseudo-Augustine

    [05] Creed “Esposito Fidei [5th/6th Cent.]

    [06] Old Latin [5th/6th Cent.]

    [07] Confession of Faith of Eugenius, Bishop of Carthage [circa. AD 484]

    [08] Cassiodoris of Italy [circa. AD 480-570] in Complexiones in Ionis Epist. ad Parthos.

    also (these three with some variation), Cyprian, Ps-Cyprian, & Priscillian (died 385) Liber Apologeticus. And Contra-Varimadum, and Ps-Vigilius, Fulgentius of Ruspe (died 527) Responsio contra Arianos
    [3] Lectionaries

    [01] “some minority variant readings in lectionaries.”
    "… “at least four Old Latin manuscripts, over eight ‘Church Fathers’ (including Cyprian who died A.D. 258), four Syriac editions, Slavic and Armenian manuscripts, over 600 distinct editions of the Textus Receptus from 1522 to 1881, 18 pre-Lutheran Bibles, and thousands of Vulgate manuscripts. Among Greek manuscripts which do omit this verse, 97% are late manuscripts, dated from the 10th century and later.”1 …” - Ridiculous KJV Bible Corrections - 1 John 5:7 Scams

    “… Some Syriac Peshitto manuscripts, The Syriac Edition at Hamburg, Bishop Uscan’s Armenian Bible, the Armenian Edition of John Zohrob, the first printed Georgian Bible.

    Early Latin witnesses include:
    1) Tertullian who died in 220 A.D.
    2) Cyprian of Carthage who died in 258 A.D.
    3) Priscillan who died in 358 A.D.
    4) The Speculum - Fifth century
    5) A creed called Esposito Fidei - Fifth or sixth century
    6) Old Latin - Fifth or sixth century
    7) A Confession of Faith of Eugenius, Bishop of Carthage (484 A.D.)
    8) Cassiodoris of Italy (480-570 A.D.)

    Nine Manuscripts which contain 1 John 5:7-8:
    #61 - Sixteenth century
    #88 - Twelfth century
    #221 - Tenth century
    #429 - Fourteenth century
    #629 - Fourteenth century
    #535 - Eleventh century
    #636 - Fifteenth century
    #918 - Sixteenth century
    #2318 - Eighteenth century

    The evidence is overwhelming for the authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8. Keep in mind that it was Origen who was the father of the false manuscripts who removed this verse as he did verses like Acts 8:37 and Luke 24:40. The Alexandrian school was no friend of the true manuscripts which were taken from Antioch and mutilated according to Gnostic beliefs.” - http://www.scionofzion.com/1 john 5 78.htm
    Remember, God preserves [Psalms 12:6,7KJB, etc] by many, few, or even just one. Majority is never the default given. Neither the minorty, or even the one. ..." - Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Did you see all of the evidence, their dates, that demonstrated that the phrase existed long before, even all the way back to Apostolic times?

    How does that help your case? Simply putting random infomation in a post, does not assist you. It, the Emphatic Diaglott, was published in AD 1864, and is Vatican critical edition of Griesbach [a known skeptic and corrector who sat in judgment of the word of God!] and

    "... It is based on the interlinear translation, the renderings of eminent critics, and various readings of the Vatican Manuscript. ...

    ... The Greek text is that of Johann Jakob Griesbach. ...

    ... The Emphatic Diaglott, containing the Original Greek Text of what is Commonly Styled the New Testament (According to the Recension of Dr. J. J. Griesbach), with an Interlineary Word for Word English Translation; A New Emphatic Version, based on the Interlineary Translation, on the Renderings of Eminent Critics, and on the various readings of the Vatican Manuscript, No. 1209 in the Vatican Library: Together with Illustrative and Explanatory Footnotes, and a copious selection of references; to the whole of which is added a valuable Alphabetical Appendix. Fowler and Wells 1865.[1] ...

    ...Although Wilson prepared the plates himself, the first edition was published in 1865 by Orson Squire Fowler of Fowler and Wells Ltd. of New York. Fowler and Wells were phrenologists who published a periodical to which Walt Whitman contributed, and also published his Leaves of Grass. (Fowler also had an earlier indirect connection to Wilson's associates among the Christadelphians through having employed Robert Roberts on a trip to Huddersfield in 1861.)

    After Wilson's death in 1900, the plates and copyright were inherited by his heirs. Charles Taze Russell, then president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, approached Wilson's family via a third party and obtained the copyright, and at some later point, the plates. The Society published the Diaglott in 1902, and later had the type reset for publication on its own presses in 1927, with an additional printing in 1942.[3]
    "
    - Emphatic Diaglott - Wikipedia

    Who are you kidding? Again, only yourself.

    Also you could please format your responses with a little more care, that I and others may understand them? Thank you.

    Yep, sure is.

    John 5:18 KJB - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    John 5:23 KJB - That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    John 17:5 KJB - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Philippians 2:6 KJB - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:​

    There it is, plain as day. One of us is cherry-picking, and it isn't me. I accept the whole text as it reads "... making himself equal with God."

    Who wrote that? John the Apostle, under inspiration of the the Holy Ghost.

    The Pharisees knew exactly what Jesus said, and tried to kill Him for it. John recorded it accurately. Why do you disagree then and say otherwise than is written? Pride, that is why. You refuse to repent and admit your error. Therefore, because you do not confess this sin, and have it forgiven and come to the Truth, you will be lost, as Jesus had said in John 8:21,24 KJB.

    The word of God judges you. I simply showed you what it said.

    Of course Jesus could do nothing of himself. Here's why, He voluntarily became the perfect Human example that we are to follow, He, as God "equal" with the Father, even in the very "form of God":

    Philippians 2:5 KJB - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    Philippians 2:6 KJB - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Philippians 2:7 KJB - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    Philippians 2:8 KJB - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Psalms 40:6 KJB - Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Psalms 40:8 KJB - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

    Hebrews 10:5 KJB - Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    Hebrews 10:6 KJB - In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Matthew 26:42 KJB - He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

    Luke 22:42 KJB - Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    1 Peter 2:21 KJB - For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    Exodus 20:12 KJB - Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

    Deuteronony 5:16 KJB - Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

    Ephesians 6:2 KJB - Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)

    Luke 2:49 KJB - And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
    Jesus took upon himself "the form of a servant", and thus:

    John 13:16 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    John 7:18 KJB - He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.​

    Of course Jesus was sent as a "servant", even taking on Himself "the form of a servant", which means before that point in time, he was "in the form of God", "equal" with the Father from Eternity. [Matthew 10:40, 15:24; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 9:48, 10:16; John 3:17,34, 4:34, 5:23,24,30,36,37,38, 6:29,38,39,40,44,57, 7:16,18,28,29, 8:18,26,29,42, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44,49, 13:16,20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3,18,21,23,25, 20:21; Romans 8:3; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9,10,14 KJB, etc], as He was the one who said to the Father, when asked "Who will go for us?", Jesus said: "Here am I send me." That doesn't make him less in nature [God] than the Father, in His Eternal Deity! The apostles/disciples sent one another [Acts 8:14, 9:30, 11:22, 15:25,27, 17:10,14; 2 Corinthans 9:3 KJB]. Joseph the younger, sent his brothers away and called them, even His father to him [Acts 7:12,14 KJB], it doesn't make him/them of a differing nature that they, nor when Rahab sent away the spies [James 2:25 KJB]. Jesus Christ sends the Holy Spirit [John 16:7; 1 Peter 1:12; Revelation 5:6 KJB]. The type had been given in the OT:

    Genesis 41:40 KJB - Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.​

    If Jesus had used His eternal Divine power, how would that be an "example" unto us in how we are to live, since we do not have that inherent power? If Jesus' used His eternal Divine power to overcome, how then would that be an "example" for how we ought to overcome sin and temption as it is written:

    John 16:33 KJB - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    Revelation 3:21 KJB - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.​

    Notice, that all created beings are "amenable" to God, and therfore, could never be a sacrifice of equal value to the Eternal Law of God. It took Deity to do this:

    "...The Son of God was next in authority to the great Lawgiver. He knew that his life alone could be sufficient to ransom fallen man. He was of as much more value than man as his noble, spotless character, and exalted office as commander of all the heavenly host, were above the work of man. He was in the express image of his Father, not in features alone, but in perfection of character. {2SP 9.1}

    The blood of beasts could not satisfy the demands of God as an atoning sacrifice for the transgression of his law. The life of a beast was of less value than the life of the offending sinner, therefore could not be a ransom for sin. It could only be acceptable with God as a figure of the offering of his Son. {2SP 9.2}

    Man could not atone for man. His sinful, fallen condition would constitute him an imperfect offering, an atoning sacrifice of less value than Adam before his fall. God made man perfect and upright, and after his transgression there could be no sacrifice acceptable to God for him, unless the offering made should in value be superior to man as he was in his state of perfection and innocency.
    10
    {2SP 9.3}

    The divine Son of God was the only sacrifice of sufficient value to fully satisfy the claims of God's perfect law. The angels were sinless, but of less value than the law of God. They were amenable to law. They were messengers to do the will of Christ, and before him to bow. They were created beings, and probationers. Upon Christ no requirements were laid. He had power to lay down his life, and to take it again. No obligation was laid upon him to undertake the work of atonement. It was a voluntary sacrifice that he made. His life was of sufficient value to rescue man from his fallen condition. {2SP 10.1}

    The Son of God was in the form of God, and he thought it not robbery to be equal with God. He was the only one, who as a man walked the earth, who could say to all men, Who of you convinceth me of sin? He had united with the Father in the creation of man, and he had power through his own divine perfection of character to atone for man's sin, and to elevate him, and bring him back to his first estate. {2SP 10.2} ..." - Spirit of Prophecy, Volume 2, pages 9.1 - 10.2

    Equality is speaking of His eternal Deity nature, not the position in the Throne, as I already cited to you. Jesus always sat at the "right hand" of the Father from Eternity, and thus when ascended back, took His place once more by the side of the Father, whom He had even been with before and sharing in the Glory thereof. If this is rejected:

    “... Another dangerous error is the doctrine that denies the deity of Christ, claiming that He had no existence before His advent to this world. This theory is received with favor by a large class who profess to believe the Bible; yet it directly contradicts the plainest statements of our Saviour concerning His relationship with the Father, His divine character, and His pre-existence. It cannot be entertained without the most unwarranted wresting of the Scriptures. It not only lowers man's conceptions of the work of redemption, but undermines faith in the Bible as a revelation from God. While this renders it the more dangerous, it makes it also harder to meet. If men reject the testimony of the inspired Scriptures concerning the deity of Christ, it is in vain to argue the point with them; for no argument, however conclusive, could convince them. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14. None who hold this error can have a true conception of the character or the mission of Christ, or of the great plan of God for man's redemption. {GC 524.2} ..." - The Great Controversy (1911), page 524.2

    And so they will sadly find the truth of Jesus' words, only too late, too late ...:

    John 8:21 KJB - Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

    John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.​

    What a great and eternal loss that will be.

    Joseph Henry Thayer was a unitarian and Bible skeptic, thus in grievous error.

    "... he began teaching New Testament criticism at Harvard. ...

    ... In February 1891 Thayer published a lecture in which he expressed disagreement with the position of Biblical inerrancy, asserting that his own acceptance of various errors of history and science in the Bible ..." - Joseph Henry Thayer - Wikipedia

    "... "A word of caution is necessary. Thayer was a Unitarian, and the errors of this sect occasionally come through in the explanatory notes. The reader should be alert for both subtle and blatant denials of such doctrines as the Trinity (Thayer regarded Christ as a mere man and the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force emanating from God), the inherent and total depravity of fallen human nature, THE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED, and Biblical inerrancy." (Joseph Henry Thayer: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Publishers Introduction, page VII, Baker Book House) ..."

    See also - Joseph Henry Thayer: The Man and His Work on JSTOR

    "... J.H. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon is the only unabridged lexicon of the New Testament up to 1957. Thayer’s title indicates that his is merely an English translation of one rising out of the German mind of Carl Grimm as seen in his Latin-Greek Lexicon (Graeco-Latinum 1862). It had been a revision of Wilke’s Greek-Latin lexicon (1839-1851). Catholic Latin, through an unbelieving German mind, then translated into English by an American Unitarian. Hmmmm. Sounds like the ‘originals’ to me (Taylor, p. 4). ..." [page 42] - http://nashpublications.com/wp-cont...nger_Books/Greek-and-Hebrew-Study-Dangers.pdf

    See also Pages 164-181, for more documentation on Thayer - http://nashpublications.com/wp-cont...nger_Books/Greek-and-Hebrew-Study-Dangers.pdf
    He sat in judgment of God's preserved word, just as you do, picking and choosing what you think ought to be there to fit your self-deceived apriori, thumbing through dusty fragments of fragments, which all fall apart if you handle them, instead of the preserved word of God in English, the King James Bible. Woe unto you ...

    What translation are you using? "... He was in the world, and the world was made by reason of him, yet the world did not know him. ..."

    John 1:10 reads thus:

    John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    John 1:10 GNT TR - εν τω κοσμω ην και ο κοσμος δι αυτου εγενετο και ο κοσμος αυτον ουκ εγνω​

    It thus means that Jesus, the Son of the Father, in Genesis, "In the beginning", who was "with" the Father from Eternity, by command/speaking of the Father, "made" all things in all of created existence. The Son was the agency of Creation through which all created things came to be in existence. Thus all created things came to exist "by him [Jesus Christ]" [Ephesians 3:9; parallel to Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2 KJB, etc, as already demonstrated].

    Indeed, "... Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

    But you do not understand what that means. JEHOVAH E/Imannuel Himself is the living example in all things, and as we "behold" [take into possession of the mind, forever, and do not let go of this example] Jesus as condescending unto earth, from Heaven, born lowly, lived as a child, serving others, rejecting all sin, turning away from all iniquity, lived as a man amongst men, then in every situation, we see JEHOVAH E/Immanuel in the life, which is the way, and the truth, which as we "behold", will indeed take away our sins, for we will have seen what to do and not to do in His perfect "example".

    The entire Gospel, in salvation and redemption from sin is in that one verse of John 1:29 KJB.

    As we continually tell you. The person of the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the person of the Son. The Holy Ghost/Spirit is neither the person of either, nor they of His person. Yet, they are JEHOVAH Elohiym. 1 Perfect Name [character], 3 Persons. Each fully God. Each Divinty. Each self-existing in Eternity. Each Eternal Life.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  8. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    My, My, My. Me God, Me God why hast me forsaken me?
    Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: spoken of the only and true God 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, for whom are all things, and we by him. John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. spoken of the only and true God
    1 Timothy 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Acts of the Apostles 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    Joshua 4:24 That all the people of the earth might know the power of the LORD, that it is strong: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever. Power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature; Some Trinitarians stumble over the Holy Spirit being called “it”, and by the claim it is only a force, a power, a non-intelligence.
    Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spoke the Holy Spirit through Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
    Give heed: Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: Hebrews 3:6-7 :6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Therefore (as the Holy Spirit says), To day if ye will hear his voice,
    Hebrews 10:15 Also the Holy Spirit bears witness to us: for after that it had said before,
    2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy was not borne at some time or other but by the will of man: but being borne spoke by the holy men of God .
    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but being restored to life to the Spirit:
    Ephesians 4:30 And fret not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament. In these editions the verses appear thus (we put backets around the extra words):
    ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες [ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ] τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.
    The King James Version, which was based upon these editions, gives the following translation:
    For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts. In the Clementine edition of the Vulgate the verses were printed thus: Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant [in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt. 8 Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra:] spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis: et hi tres unum sunt. From the Vulgate, then, it seems that the Comma was translated into Greek and inserted into some printed editions of the Greek text, and in a handful of late Greek manuscripts. All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them.
    A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd ed. (Stuttgart, 1993).
    After μαρτυροῦντες the Textus Receptus adds the following: ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ. That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.
    •61: codex Montfortianus, dating from the early sixteenth century.
    •88: a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the fourteenth-century codex Regius of Naples.
    •221: a variant reading added to a tenth-century manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.
    •429: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.
    •629: a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican.
    •636: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Naples.
    •918: a sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.
    •2318: an eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.
    The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215. The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).
    The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (through the mention of three witnesses: the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation that may have been written first as a marginal note that afterwards found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards it is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the Old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars. (For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)
    Johann Jakob Griesbach

    1745-1812. German critic, who exercised great influence in many Biblical disciplines. He studied at Tübingen, Halle (where he studied under J. Semler), and Leipzig, becoming a professor at Jena in 1775. He is considered responsible for synoptic studies, first using the term "synoptic" in his Commentarius Criticus in 1811.
    But if Griesbach's influence on synoptic studies was great, his influence on textual criticism is perhaps even more fundamental. Although it was Semler who introduced Griesbach to the theory of text-types, Griesbach is largely responsible for the modern view of types. It was Griesbach who popularized the names Alexandrian, Byzantine, and Western. He also paid particular attention to matters not previously studied in depth -- e.g. patristic quotations and the Armenian version.
    Griesbach published a list of fifteen critical canons, which he exercised with much greater skill than most of those who followed him (e.g. while he accepted the rule that we should prefer the shorter reading, he hedged it around with many useful warnings -- not just those about scribal errors, author's style, and nonsense readings, but also warning of the dangers of omission of non-essential words such as prepositions). It is probably fair to say that while most modern critics accept most of Griesbach's rules, they do not apply them with nearly as much skill. (The standard example of Griesbach's skill is that he deduced the Vaticanus text of the Lord's Prayer in Luke 11:2-4 working only from the handful of minuscules and uncials known to him.)
    Griesbach published several editions of the New Testament text (1775-1777, 1796-1806, 1803-1807). Textually, these did not differ greatly from the Textus Receptus, because Griesbach made it a policy only to print readings already printed by some other editor -- but his extensive margin noted many other good readings, and (more to the point) he used a system to note where these readings were as good as or better than those in the text. This was a fundamental forerunner of the {A}, {B}, {C}, {D} notations found in the United Bible Societies Editions. It is safe to say that all more recent critical editions have been influenced by the work of Griesbach.
     
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Seventh-day Adventists are not Unitarians [to continue to present that that is what I/we are saying is a purposeful distortion upon your own part; you need to differentiate between persons, or at least acknowledge that I/we do], neither Modalists, not Sabellianists, nor Arians. Jesus, the person of the Son is not talking to Himself. He is talking to several persons, the person of the Father and of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, including the whole world:

    I have already clearly stated,

    "... JEHOVAH [name, character] Elohiym [3 persons]. At-one-ment. Not a single person, but 3 persons. Not a three-headed hydra. Not one person masquerading as three persons. Not a ventriliquist. ..." - Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

    The Father and the Holy Ghost/Spirit had been with Jesus up until this point:

    John 8:16 KJB - And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

    John 8:29 KJB - And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

    John 16:32 KJB - Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
    But in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of the sin of the world was already being placed upon Him, and He began to feel its weight and separation from His Father, even so much so that Gabriel was sent as a messenger of mercy to strengthen Him for the final battle [and it was this same angel who passed betwen Jesus and the soldiers to come to take Him, that they fell backwards; John 18:5-6 KJB]:

    Matthew 26:38 KJB - Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

    Mark 14:33 KJB - And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

    Mark 14:34 KJB - And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

    Luke 22:43 KJB - And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

    Luke 22:44 KJB - And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.​

    Therefore, the "My God [the person of the Father], my God [the person of the Holy Ghost/Spirit], why has thou [together] forsaken me [the person of the Son].", which is a reference to Psalms 22:1. The answer is because of [our] sin that He took upon Himself:

    Matthew 27:46 KJB - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Mark 15:34 KJB - And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Deuteronomy 28:20 KJB - The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

    Psalms 71:11 KJB - Saying, God hath forsaken him: persecute and take him; for there is none to deliver him.

    Isaiah 53:3 KJB - He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    Isaiah 53:4 KJB - Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    Isaiah 53:5 KJB - But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Isaiah 59:2 KJB - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 KJB - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    1 Peter 2:24 KJB - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Habakkuk 1:13 KJB - Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?​

    Jesus was alone upon the cross, forsaken by God and man [though people stood around, none understood]:

    Matthew 26:56 KJB - But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

    Mark 14:50 KJB - And they all forsook him, and fled.

    Isaiah 63:3 KJB - I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    I agree, JEHOVAH Elohiym. JEHOVAH [name, character] Elohiym [3 persons]. At-one-ment. Not a single person, but 3 persons. This was already demonstrated here - [1]

    I agree, one JEHOVAH Jesus Christ. The Koine Greek, reads, "... κυριος ιησους χριστος ...", and the word "κυριος" is a reference to the Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB text, and the JEHOVAH Elohiym, whereby Paul is explaining that there are multiple person being referred to in it, and thereby showing that Jesus, is JEHOVAH E/Immanuel, the person of the Son. Thus the NT "Lord" [κυριος] is a quote from the OT LORD [יהוה]. This was already shown to you here - [1] This is why it is written:

    John 8:21 KJB - Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

    John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    Philippians 2:11 KJB - And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord [a reference to Himself as יהוה the Son], to the glory of God the Father.

    1 Corinthians 12:3 KJB - Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord [a reference to Himself as יהוה the Son], but by the Holy Ghost.​

    I agree, since Jesus is JEHOVAH E/Immanuel, the JEHOVAH Jesus, as shown here [1] and here [2] and most definitely here [3] and here [4].

    Let's look at John 20:28 KJB, and context [see also Psalms 35:23 KJB, HOT and so-called LXX, which we have already briefly looked at here [1]:


    John 20:24 KJB - But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

    John 20:25 KJB - The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe

    John 20:26 KJB - And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

    John 20:27 KJB - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

    John 20:28 KJB - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    John 20:29 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    The texts of John 20:26-29 KJB are clear in their inspired [2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB] statements, and in the very witness [1 John 5:6-9 KJB] of the Apostle Thomas in regards Jesus Christ. He is, “Lord” and “God” of Thomas who, a moment before the revelation, had doubted.

    However, there are some which attempt to 'excuse' these words of Thomas by the following [these being the exact words]:

    [1] Thomas was surprised when he saw the Lord in their midst. “My God!” was just an expression, a “statement of surprise.”

    [2] Thomas was actually addressing both the Father [“My God”] and the Lord Jesus Christ [“My Lord”] when he said, “My Lord and my God.”

    [3] It is not a teaching text (non-didactic text); actually Thomas made a mistake when he said, “My Lord and my God.”

    [4] Thomas could have been saying my master and judge. The underlying koine Greek word 'theos' is generic and has many meanings and can mean 'judge'.​

    What is not represented as an answer, is the obvious, that Thomas actually believed in his affirmative statement that Jesus was indeed “... [his [possessive, 'my']] Lord and [his [possessive, 'my']] God”.

    Consider the text itself:

    John 20:28 KJB - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    John 20:28 GNT TR - ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.​

    While the King James Bible is perfect in the way English reads, the Koine Greek itself undermines the 4 excuses, by reading, “ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου”, which in harsh English, reads, 'the Lord of me and the God of me'.

    In fact, there is an Old Testament text which reads in a similar way, which will help us understand how to read the text:

    Psalms 35:23 KJB - Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord.​

    Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100].

    Psalms 35:23 (34:23) LXX* - ἐξεγέρθητι, κύριε, καὶ πρόσχες τῇ κρίσει μου, ὁ θεός μου καὶ ὁ κύριός μου, εἰς τὴν δίκην μου.​

    The understanding is obvious, and the language, other than reversed, is the very same.

    The very context of the John 20:28 KJB text is between Jesus and His doubting disciple. Jesus speaks to Thomas, and Thomas' statement [then of new found faith and belief] is directly in response and directed to Jesus Christ Himself because of His appearing after crucifixion, death and burial, now resurrected and alive.

    John 20:26 KJB - And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

    John 20:27 KJB - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

    John 20:28 KJB - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    John 20:29 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.​

    The words, “behold”, “faithless”, “believing”, “seen”, “believed”, “blessed are they that have not seen” and “believed” are directly connected to the statement of Thomas to Jesus and His appearing, and also related to the previous week, wherein Thomas had not been present with the others. Jesus is herein specifically designated the “Lord” and “God” of Thomas.

    However, not to merely discount the 4 objections, let us now consider each one more closely:

    [1] Thomas exclaimed in “surprise” unto “him” [Jesus; vs 26 - “Jesus”, vs 27 - “he”, “my”, “my”, vs 28 - “answered and said unto him”, vs 29 - “Jesus”], when he said, “... my God ...”!

    This 'explanation' is that Thomas had an 'outburst', a sudden expression of surprise, likened unto when someone smashes their finger or is caught off guard, a knee-jerk reaction and is sometimes expressed in various translations with an exclamation point [!].

    This argument is based upon a punctuation mark, which is not represented in the Koine Greek, neither the English context, nor in several other various translations [which use a period [.] or even semi-colon [;], such as the ASV, Darby's, Douay Rheims, Noah Webster's, etc], including the King James Bible itself.

    Yet, even if the majority of translations utilized a period [.], semi-colon [;] or an exclamation point [!], it would not be proof, since truth is not confirmed by majority. Truth is self-confirming.

    Moreso, the Koine Greek has no punctuation. Consider the following two examples of sentences, that even punctuation, whether a period [.] or exclamation point [!] would not alter the understanding:

    [1] Sample:

    “Jesus is the anointed King and Messiah.”

    “... It is Jesus.”
    Text:

    “... My Lord and my God.”
    Simply a true statement. A profession of that which is true.

    [2] Sample:

    “Jesus is the anointed King and Messiah!”

    “... It is Jesus!”
    Text:

    “... My Lord and my God!”
    An exclamation of the profound truth.

    The question then becomes, “Which of the two sentences, whether period [.] or exclamation point [!], is saying anything that is not true in regards Jesus?” The answer is, “Neither.” Doctrinal understanding is never to be founded upon punctuation, but rather:

    Isaiah 28:10 KJB - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

    Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
    The text is not recorded in the same way as if anyone were to simply blurt out, “OUCH!” or “YEOW!”, which would be something that takes very little cognitive ability, but rather what Thomas says, if in exclamation, would be akin to anyone exclaiming “That really, really hurts and smarts!” Clear cognitive reasoning which is much more than that of simply “OW!”

    However, there is no exclamation point here, but rather, Thomas “answered” [John 20:28 KJB] Jesus, whom had just spoken to him in John 20:27 KJB. Thomas formulates a complete and complex sentence in response unto Jesus, beginning with “My Lord”, adding unto it, “and”, finally finishing with, “my God.” This is a deep and complex thought formulated into words and not something 'right off of the top of the head'. This is not a 'knee-jerk' reaction, but rather total realization of who it was that stood before him resurrected.​
    [2] Thomas was actually addressing both the Father [“My God”] and the Lord Jesus Christ [“My Lord”] when he said, “My Lord and my God.”

    This “explanation” directly overlooks the nearest immediate context and violates it. The nearest context and scripture reveals that, “And Thomas answered and said unto him ...”

    Thomas was not addressing multiple individuals or persons in this passage. The “him” is singular and not plural:

    John 20:28 GNT-TR+ - καιG2532 CONJ απεκριθηG611 V-ADI-3S οG3588 T-NSM θωμαςG2381 N-NSM καιG2532 CONJ ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S αυτωG846 P-DSM οG3588 T-NSM κυριοςG2962 N-NSM μουG1473 P-1GS καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM μουG1473 P-1GS
    The “him” is the singular person, Jesus [vs 26 - “Jesus”, vs 27 - “he”, “my”, “my”, vs 28 - “answered and said unto him”, vs 29 - “Jesus”] who had just spoken to Thomas. Thomas “answered” Jesus, and this means to respond to something said, done, etc, just as Jesus had “answered” the devil in the wilderness, or an echo in “answering”.​

    [3] It is not a teaching text (non-didactic text); actually Thomas made a mistake when he said, “My Lord and my God.”

    The first part of this “explanation” ignores the following text:

    2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    All of scripture is teaching text, especially when the Holy Spirit is the teacher.

    The second part of the “explanation” ignores other texts in which Jesus immediately censors and/or rebukes the disciples for saying, thinking, and/or doing foolish things and/or transgressing God's Law:

    Matthew 16:23 KJB - But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    Matthew 17:25 KJB - He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

    Matthew 26:52 KJB - Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

    Matthew 26:53 KJB - Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    Mark 8:33 KJB - But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

    Mark 14:6 KJB - And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.

    Luke 24:25 KJB - Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

    John 12:7 KJB - Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

    John 12:8 KJB - For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
    If Thomas had actually blasphemed [scripture deals with our speech, Matthew 5:19; Colossians 4:6; Titus 2:8, etc. KJB] in this instance, he would have received serious rebuke from Jesus who loved Him, as it is written:

    Leviticus 19:17 KJB - Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

    Leviticus 19:18 KJB - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
    Jesus also directly and immediately rebuked the devil:

    Matthew 4:10 KJB - Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

    Luke 4:8 KJB - And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
    Yet, Jesus receives worship in numerous places [a few samples of hundreds]:

    Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Exodus 3:3 KJB - And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

    Exodus 3:4 KJB - And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

    Exodus 3:5 KJB - And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

    Exodus 3:6 KJB - Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Acts 7:33 KJB - Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

    Joshua 5:15 KJB - And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.​

    [4] Thomas could have been saying my master and judge. The underlying koine Greek word 'theos' is generic and has many meanings and can mean 'judge'.

    This “explanation” undercuts itself from the beginning by saying, “... could have been ...”, which is entirely unfounded conjecture, as the text reads, “My Lord and my God.”

    However, let us consider the second portion in fairness, and give the benefit, in spite of the doubt.

    The English word “God” [John 20:28 KJB], is translated from the koine Greek [G2316] “θεός”, “theos”. It is not once translated “judge” in all of the King James Bible in 1344 times. However, in John 10:35 KJB, it is translated “gods” [lowercase], being a reference to an OT passage [Psalms 82 KJB]:

    Psalms 82:1 KJB - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

    Psalms 82:2 KJB - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

    Psalms 82:3 KJB - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

    Psalms 82:4 KJB - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

    Psalms 82:5 KJB - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

    Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    Psalms 82:7 KJB - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

    Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
    This passage is speaking about the unjust rulers of Israel, the unjust judges, the corrupt leaders, “princes”, the "gods", the "congregation of the mighty", even the "children of the most High" [in fact, Jesus makes perfect use of this text in John 10:30-38 KJB, see below for details*]. God Himself is the chief judge. Reconsider John 20:28 KJB in that light then.

    Genesis 18:25 KJB - That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

    Psalms 50:6 KJB - And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

    Psalms 75:7 KJB - But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

    Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

    Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJB - I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

    Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

    Romans 3:6 KJB - God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

    Hebrews 12:23 KJB - To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Hebrews 13:4 KJB - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
    God is Judge. Jesus is our, and Thomas', Judge and God:

    Romans 14:10 KJB - But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 KJB - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    John 8:16 KJB - And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

    John 5:22 KJB - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    Revelation 14:7 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
    Compare: Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 20:8-11; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3, etc. KJB

    As stated before, the only “explanation” not given, is the one which is plainly given in the English text of the King James Bible. Jesus is the Lord and God of Thomas; Jesus is my Lord and God [.!] Is He your Lord and God? If not, consider carefully:

    John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    Amen.​

    *The "ye are gods" texts and explanation:

    Citing the texts:

    John 10:24 KJB - Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

    John 10:25 KJB - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

    John 10:26 KJB - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    John 10:27 KJB - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    John 10:28 KJB - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    John 10:29 KJB - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    John 10:30 KJB - I and my Father are one.
    This speaks of at-one-ment, of heart, purpose, not of persons.

    John 10:31 KJB - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    They did this, because, Jesus just claimed full equality with God, that is, the person of the Father. He had done this before [John 10:25 KJB, "... I told you, and ye believed not ..."], with the same results:

    John 5:18 KJB - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    John 8:57 KJB - Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    John 8:59 KJB - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.​

    This would have been blasphemy [Leviticus 24:14; 1 Kings 21:10 KJB], and subject for stoning, had it not been that Jesus was who He said He is.

    John 10:32 KJB - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    Jesus, then knowing that they do not believe His words, mercifully points them to His actions, deeds, the very miracles wrought, the lives of people delivered from satan, sin, disease, death. Many say that actions speak louder than words, and therefore, Jesus turned up the volume for them, that these willingly deaf might hear, and have no excuse for their own evil present course:

    John 10:33 KJB - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    They unwittingly condemn themselves by acknowledging that the works of Jesus were "good works". They should have recognized then, the source of them, and recognize, that Jesus' actions, were matching His words, and have drawn the conclusion by following the result back to their source and see that the words were undeniably true, yet this they did not do, because they sought to justify themselves, and to justify their idea of what the Messiah/Christ ought to have been, and do. Jesus, having already told them [1], and shown them [2], that He was equal to God, that is the person of the Father, and did the very "good works" that the Father does, now attempts to show them from scripture [3] itself [rather than His present words, and present actions], who He is:

    John 10:34 KJB - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    John 10:35 KJB - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    Now, Jesus cites the scripture [OT] itself, specifically Psalms 82:1,6, in its context [see also that the priests and rulers of the people are called by God, "gods" [Exodus 4:16, 7:1, 22:28; Psalms 138:1; Daniel 8:11,25, 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJB]], which in context, meant "children of the Most High" [Psalms 82:6 KJB], all "brethren" [Matthew 23:8; Hebrews 2:11 KJB], equally Kings and Priests, under God:

    Psalms 82:1 KJB - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

    There is a perfect parallelism:

    [1A] "... God ..."

    [1B] "... he ..."
    [2A] "... standeth in ..."

    [2B] "... judgeth among ..."
    [3A] "... the congregation of the mighty ..."

    [3B] "... the gods ..."
    Psalms 82:2 KJB - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

    Psalms 82:3 KJB - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

    Psalms 82:4 KJB - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

    Psalms 82:5 KJB - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

    Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    There is a perfect parallelism:

    [1A] "I have said ..."

    [1B] "... and ..."
    [2A] "... Ye are ..."

    [2B] "... all of you are ..."
    [3A] "... gods ..."

    [3B] "... children of the most High."
    Psalms 82:7 KJB - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

    Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.​
    In so doing, Jesus refers to God Himself, being in the midst of the His people, while He being the true just Judge, they being unjust judges, God defending the poor, fatherless, needy, etc, they turing away from them. The very moment that Jesus cites this reference to the Psalm, is exactly the moment of the contrast between Himself, His words and actions, and their [the Jews, leaders, Pharisees, etc] words and actions. So, Jesus' [1] words demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, [2] His actions, the "good works", demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, and even [3] the very scripture itself in Psalms 82, demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were. However, more than this, Jesus is drawing a greater argument from the text, notice:

    John 10:36 KJB - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    Jesus, said "I am the Son of God", and in John 10:30 KJB, said, "I and my Father are one", which the "Jews" rightly understood Him, to make the claim that He was indeed equal to God, the person of the Father, when they said [John 10:33 KJB], "... thou ... makest thyself God."

    Is Jesus backtracking from making the claim to be God [not the person of the Father, but that of the Son], or backtracking from the claim that He was equal with God [person of the Father]? No. He is making a perfect air-tight case, from scripture, which cannot be broken [John 10:35 KJB], from the 'lesser' to the 'greater'.

    Jesus cited Psalms 82, saying that even the scripture called God's own people, "gods", meaning that they were to be just judges, even "children of the most High", and thus were all 'sons of God' in that sense, called to be like Him in character, words, actions, etc. Jesus had claimed to be the actual "Son of God", who from eternity was equal with the Father. Jesus is saying, since the scripture called the adopted persons 'gods', 'children of the most High', which none of them argued with, how much more then does the actual un-adopted, original, eternal, only begotten heir have claim to such, as "Son of God", and they all knew of the person from the OT, see "my fellow" [Zechariah 13:7 KJB], the person at the bush with Moses [Exodus 3 & 4, 23:21 KJB], with Joshua [Joshua 5:13-15 KJB], etc, etc, and the coming "son" [Isaiah 9:6] who was given from the Father.

    Therefore, which had the greater claim to the designation and responsibility, the actual Son of God, or those who were later called into the family of God, through adoption, whom were all called "gods", "children of the most High", "sons of God" [Genesis 6:2,4; Hosea 1:10; Ezekiel 16:21 KJB, etc]? How then could they stone Jesus, since the Messiah was the real Son of God, and they all only called and adopted? They would to have as soon stone themselves before they could rightlyfully stone Jesus for the rightful claim, which was superior in everyway to their claim to such. Jesus is not saying that He is not God, nor lessing the arguments and words beforehand made, nor backtracking to save Himself, He, instead is making the perfect unarguable case, from scripture that He is who He said He is, drawing from the 'lesser' to the 'greater' example. Jesus finishes by pointing back again to His actions, which were fulfilling the very scriptures:

    John 10:37 KJB - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

    John 10:38 KJB - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    John 10:39 KJB - Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
    They did not care about all three means by which Jesus sought to show them, because, they were unjust, and proved themselves so and stubbornly wanted to remain so. They could not refute Jesus' words, actions or scripture.

    Yes, again, Jesus Christ, is JEHOVAH Jesus, JEHOVAH E/Immanuel, as already cited. I/we agree with what is written here. The "spirit" of Acts 7:59, is the last "breath" of Stephen, entrusting Himself into the arms of His Father [Jesus; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18 KJB], just as Jesus had done at the Cross, for even in death, Jesus had faith in His Father, even when all looked hopeless, and only thick darkness and loneliness surrounded Jesus. When Stephen saw the person of Jesus standing at the right hand of the person of the Father in Heaven, it signaled the end of the 70 weeks [begun in 457 BC, Daniel 9:24-27; Ezra 6:14; 7-28 KJB, etc], the 490 years [the first portion of the 2,300 day/years of Daniel 8:13,14,26 kJB, et] of Daniel 9:24-27 KJB, and thus the probation for the Jews as a nation, was closed, but individuals could still be delivered, and thus the gospel was to go from Jerusalem, to Judea, to Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth [through Paul and others]. The parallels to the 3 1/2 years of Jesus beginning with the Holy Spirit at the Jordan in AD 27 unto His death in AD 31, and the 3 1/2 years of the apostles and disciples after Pentecost and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit there unto the death of Stephen in AD 34 are amazing. see Hebrews 2:3 KJB to start with, in conjunction with Daniel 9:27 KJB, in the "confirm the covenant" aspect.

    Jesus Christ is the "strength", see Revelation 12:10-12; Romans 5:6; 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB. Just because He or even th Holy Spirit are called "strength", "wisdom" etc, doesn't mean that they are not persons.

    Jesus Christ is indeed the Almighty, not the person of the Father, neither the person of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, but the person of the Son:

    Genesis 17:1 KJB - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

    Genesis 35:11 KJB - And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

    For it was such He had 'laid down' [chose not to use], and took it back up again:


    Matthew 28:18 KJB - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Luke 10:19 KJB - Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

    John 10:18 KJB - No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    John 17:2 KJB - As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    1 Corinthians 5:4 KJB - In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    1 Corinthians 15:24 KJB - Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    2 Corinthians 12:9 KJB - And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    2 Thessalonians 1:9 KJB - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    2 Peter 1:3 KJB - According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

    Revelation 5:12 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    Even the false gods among the pantheons of the various false religions name many of their gods by what are seemingly mere attributes, like "sophia", "phobos", etc. Yet, we know that even those are devils, which are real persons/beings, not non-entities, or mere elemental forces. That is why those beings are called "powers" [Romans 8:38; Ephesians 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16, 2:15].

    The Holy Ghost, being also a Person, an eternal Being, is also called "power", just as Christ Jesus and the Father are [they are the Three Greatest Powers of Heaven], and the scriptures even speak of the "power" of the Holy Ghost/Spirit [Luke 1:35; Romans 15:13 KJB, etc].


    I pray you do not think I adhere to the errors of Romanism ... I do not believe the following definition of said word [not that I really use the word anyway, I prefer the scriptural "Godhead", but never-the-less]:

    * "We believe then in the Father who eternally begets the Son, in the Son, the Word of God, who is eternally begotten; in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated Person who proceeds from the Father and the Son as their eternal love. Thus in the Three Divine Persons, coaeternae sibi et coaequales,[8] the life and beatitude of God perfectly one superabound and are consummated in the supreme excellence and glory proper to uncreated being, and always "there should be venerated unity in the Trinity and Trinity in the unity."[9]" [Online Roman Catholic Library; Credo of the People of God; Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968] - http://www.newadvent...docs_pa06cr.htm

    "...that the Paraclete "is not to be considered as unconnected with the Father and the Son, for He is with Them one in substance and divinity"...

    ... Proceeding both from the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost, nevertheless, proceeds from Them as from a single principle. ... Hence it follows, indeed, that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the two other Persons, not in so far as They are distinct, but inasmuch as Their Divine perfection is numerically one. Besides, such is the explicit teaching of ecclesiastical tradition, which is concisely put by St. Augustine (On the Holy Trinity V.14): "As the Father and the Son are only one God and, relatively to the creature, only one Creator and one Lord, so, relatively to the Holy Ghost, They are only one principle." This doctrine was definded in the following words by the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons [Denzinger, "Enchiridion" (1908), n. 460]: "We confess that the Holy Ghost proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle, not by two spirations, but by one single spiration." The teaching was again laid down by the Council of Florence (ibid., n. 691), and by Eugene IV in his Bull "Cantate Domino" (ibid., n. 703 sq.). ...

    ..."the Holy Ghost comes from the Father and from the Son not made, not created, not generated, but proceeding" ... " [Online Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, Holy Spirit; sections throughout] - http://www.newadvent...then/07409a.htm

    "The sacrosanct Roman Church, founded by the voice of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes, and preaches one true God omnipotent, unchangeable, and eternal, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; one in essence, three in persons; Father unborn, Son born of the Father, Holy Spirit proceeding from Father and Son; that the Father is not Son or Holy Spirit, that Son is not Father or Holy Spirit; that Holy Spirit is not Father or Son; but Father alone is Father, Son alone is Son, Holy Spirit alone is Holy Spirit. The Father alone begot the Son of His own substance; the Son alone was begotten of the Father alone; the Holy Spirit alone proceeds at the same time from the Father and Son.

    These three persons are one God, and not three gods, because the three have one substance, one essence, one nature, one divinity, one immensity, one eternity, where no opposition of relationship interferes.

    “Because of this unity the Father is entire in the Son, entire in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entire in the Father, entire in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is entire in the Father, entire in the Son. No one either excels another in eternity, or exceeds in magnitude, or is superior in power. For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning; and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.” Whatever the Father is or has, He does not have from another, but from Himself; and He is the principle without principle. Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle. Whatever the Holy Spirit is or has, He has simultaneously from the Father and the Son. But the Father and the Son are not two principles of the Holy Spirit, but one principle, just as the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of the creature, but one principle. ..." The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV by Pope Eugene IV - http://catholicism.o...ate-domino.html

    It is rather difficult to tell when you are replying and when you are re-quoting me. But since you highlighted it.

    I do not stumble over such a thing, but explained it here [1].

    Indeed [Acts 28:25, which is citing Isaiah 6, etc; and Hebrews 10, is citing Jeremiah 31, etc; Hebrews 3:6-7 KJB], the Holy Ghost speaks [as shown to you already that the Holy Ghost is also JEHOVAH, not the person of Father, neither the person of the Son; [1]], being that He is a Divine and eternal Person. The Third Person of the Godhead. He speaks unto men and Instructs them and Comforts them, being that He is "another Comforter":

    John 14:16 KJB - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:16 KJB - και εγω ερωτησω τον πατερα και αλλον παρακλητον δωσει υμιν ινα μενη μεθ υμων εις τον αιωνα​

    Yes, indeed, "another" like Jesus, a Person, a Being.

    Acts 8:29 KJB - Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.​

    A Being that can be grieved, just as cited by yourself [Ephesians 4:30 KJB] and can bear "witness" [Hebrews 10:15 KJB].

    The Holy Ghost/Spirit [as the Father and the Son] is able to resurrect persons to life:

    Romans 8:11 KJB - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    1 Peter 3:18 KJB - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    Thus:

    JEHOVAH Elohiym is the Resurrection and the Life:

    Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Colossians 2:12

    Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

    And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 1 Corinthians 6:14

    Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:24

    And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:15

    God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33

    Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Hebrews 13:20
    Who raised Jesus from the Dead?

    So the Father did:

    Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Ephesians 1:20

    Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4

    Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) Galatians 1:1

    And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10
    So Jesus [the Son] did:

    Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19

    No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:18
    So the Holy Spirit did:

    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18
    3 Persons working in unison, perfect at-one-ment of action, goal, etc, but each differing Persons.

    You need to cite your copy and pastes from websites [which are out of date by the way, and present only half-information].

    Notice the words "generally absent", not "completely absent". First point against such.

    Second point against such, for the latter half is in error, as the words do not only "appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts" [which by the way is only speaking about Koine Greek texts, not Latin, or other languages, as I have shown you at least twice now the full known extent of their appearance from Apostolic times, just based in mss, etc evidences. [1] and [2]. Here it is a third time:

    "... Side note:

    1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    The evidence:

    [1] Manuscripts [MSS]

    Cursives [Greek lowercase]:

    [01] #61 [aka Codex Montfortianus] - 16th Cent.
    [02] #88 [aka Codex Regis [margin, 16th Cent.]] - 12th Cent.
    [03] #177 [BSB Codex graeci 211 [margin, 15th Cent.] - 11th Cent.
    [04] #221 [margin, 15th/16th Cent.] - 10th Cent.
    [05] #429 [aka Codex Wolfenbuttel, margin, 16th Cent.] - 14th Cent.
    [06] #629 [aka Codex Ottobonianus] - 14th Cent.
    [07] #535 - 11th Cent.
    [08] #636 [margin] - 15th Cent.
    [09] #918 - 16th Cent.
    [10] #2318 - 18th Cent.
    [11] #2473 - 18th Cent.​
    Latin:

    [01] c [aka Codex Colbertinus, aka 6, 12th/13th Cent. [1200]]
    [02] dem [aka Codex Demidovianus, aka 59, 13th Cent. [1250]]
    [03] div [aka Codex Divionensis, aka –, 13th Cent. [1250]]
    [04] l [aka Codex Legionensis, aka 67, 7th Cent. [750]]
    [05] m [aka Codex Speculum, aka –, 4th-9th Cent.]
    [06] p [aka Codex Perpinianensis, aka 54, 12th/13th Cent. [1150]]
    [07] q [aka Codex Frisingensis, aka 64, 7h Cent. [650]]
    [08] r [aka Codex Frisingensis, aka 64, 5th/6th Cent.]
    [09] Vulgate [Clementine edition]
    [10] La Cava Bible [aka Codex Cavensis [9th Cent.]]
    [11] Codex Ulmensis [9th Cent.]
    [12] C [aka Codex Complutensis, 10th Cent.]
    [13] T [aka Codex Toletanus, 10th Cent.]
    [14] Θ [Codex Theodulphianus, 10th Cent.]
    [15] S 907 [aka Codex Sangallensis 907, 8th Cent.]
    [16] S 63 [aka Codex Sangallensis 63, 9th Cent.]
    “testimonium dicunt [or dant] in terra, spiritus [or: spiritus et] aqua et sanguis, et hi tres unum sunt in Christo Iesu. [8] et tres sunt, qui testimonium dicunt in caelo, pater verbum et spirtus.”
    [2] “Church Fathers” [so-called]

    [01] Tertullian [circa. AD 220]

    [02] Cyprian of Carthage [circa. AD 258], Treatises (I 5:423): “... and again it is written of the Father, , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, , 'And these three are one.' ...”

    [03] Priscillan [circa. AD 358]

    [04] The Speculum [5th Cent.], Pseudo-Augustine

    [05] Creed “Esposito Fidei [5th/6th Cent.]

    [06] Old Latin [5th/6th Cent.]

    [07] Confession of Faith of Eugenius, Bishop of Carthage [circa. AD 484]

    [08] Cassiodoris of Italy [circa. AD 480-570] in Complexiones in Ionis Epist. ad Parthos.

    also (these three with some variation), Cyprian, Ps-Cyprian, & Priscillian (died 385) Liber Apologeticus. And Contra-Varimadum, and Ps-Vigilius, Fulgentius of Ruspe (died 527) Responsio contra Arianos
    [3] Lectionaries

    [01] “some minority variant readings in lectionaries.”

    "… “at least four Old Latin manuscripts, over eight ‘Church Fathers’ (including Cyprian who died A.D. 258), four Syriac editions, Slavic and Armenian manuscripts, over 600 distinct editions of the Textus Receptus from 1522 to 1881, 18 pre-Lutheran Bibles, and thousands of Vulgate manuscripts. Among Greek manuscripts which do omit this verse, 97% are late manuscripts, dated from the 10th century and later.”1 …” - Ridiculous KJV Bible Corrections - 1 John 5:7 Scams

    “… Some Syriac Peshitto manuscripts, The Syriac Edition at Hamburg, Bishop Uscan’s Armenian Bible, the Armenian Edition of John Zohrob, the first printed Georgian Bible.

    Early Latin witnesses include:
    1) Tertullian who died in 220 A.D.
    2) Cyprian of Carthage who died in 258 A.D.
    3) Priscillan who died in 358 A.D.
    4) The Speculum - Fifth century
    5) A creed called Esposito Fidei - Fifth or sixth century
    6) Old Latin - Fifth or sixth century
    7) A Confession of Faith of Eugenius, Bishop of Carthage (484 A.D.)
    8) Cassiodoris of Italy (480-570 A.D.)

    Nine Manuscripts which contain 1 John 5:7-8:
    #61 - Sixteenth century
    #88 - Twelfth century
    #221 - Tenth century
    #429 - Fourteenth century
    #629 - Fourteenth century
    #535 - Eleventh century
    #636 - Fifteenth century
    #918 - Sixteenth century
    #2318 - Eighteenth century

    The evidence is overwhelming for the authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8. Keep in mind that it was Origen who was the father of the false manuscripts who removed this verse as he did verses like Acts 8:37 and Luke 24:40. The Alexandrian school was no friend of the true manuscripts which were taken from Antioch and mutilated according to Gnostic beliefs.” - http://www.scionofzion.com/1 john 5 78.htm

    Remember, God preserves [Psalms 12:6,7KJB, etc] by many, few, or even just one. Majority is never the default given. Neither the minorty, or even the one. ..." - Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god
    Therefore, please stop relying upon outdated and half-truth information from a random website. It is overwhelmingly refuted, and even shown to be dishonest. There is no rule that states any given phrase must be found in a frgamentary Koine Greek document. There are other languages into which the scriptures had been meticulously copied into, like Latin, Syriac, etc. The books of Acts proves that the Gospel went into all the world, any by multiple languages [Acts 2:1-13 KJB].

    Absolutely falsified by the evidence I gave on 3 occasions now. It is mere erroneous human conjecture and nothing more, a critics analysis who doubts in the preservaion of the word of God. There is 0, Zero, nada, zip, zilch, bubkiss, nothing to substantiate such a wild claim. The documentary evidence proves the opposite.

    It existed far prior to "later" or "late medieval" mss. It's even found in the so-called 'patristics' and 'lectionaries' outside of the Latin or Greek mss.

    As stated, the very Koine Greek tenses, masculine and neuter require the phrase. Why not address this, you may see that here:

    " ... The strongest evidence, however, is found in the Greek text itself. Looking at 1 John 5:8, there are three nouns which, in Greek, stand in the neuter (Spirit, water, and blood). However, they are followed by a participle that is masculine. The Greek phrase here is oi marturountes (who bare witness). Those who know the Greek language understand this to be poor grammar if left to stand on its own. Even more noticeably, verse six has the same participle but stands in the neuter (Gk.: to marturoun). Why are three neuter nouns supported with a masculine participle? The answer is found if we include verse seven. There we have two masculine nouns (Father and Son) followed by a neuter noun (Spirit). The verse also has the Greek masculine participle oi marturountes. With this clause introducing verse eight, it is very proper for the participle in verse eight to be masculine, because of the masculine nouns in verse seven. But if verse seven were not there it would become improper Greek grammar.

    Even though Gregory of Nazianzus (390 AD) does not testify to the authenticity of the Comma, he makes mention of the flawed grammar resulting from its absence. In his Theological Orientations he writes referring to John:

    . . . (he has not been consistent) in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using Three in the masculine gender he adds three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your grammarians have laid down. For what is the difference between putting a masculine Three first, and then adding One and One and One in the neuter, or after a masculine One and One and One to use the Three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourselves disclaim in the case of Deity? [8]
    It is clear that Gregory recognized the inconsistency with Greek grammar if all we have are verses six and eight without verse seven. Other scholars have recognized the same thing. This was the argument of Robert Dabney of Union Theological Seminary in his book, The Doctrinal Various Readings of the New Testament Greek (1891). Bishop Middleton in his book, Doctrine of the Greek Article, argues that verse seven must be a part of the text according to the Greek structure of the passage. Even in the famous commentary by Matthew Henry, there is a note stating that we must have verse seven if we are to have proper Greek in verse eight. [9]

    While the external evidence makes the originality of the Comma possible, the internal evidence makes it very probable. When we consider the providential hand of God and His use of the Traditional Text in the Reformation it is clear that the Comma is authentic. ..." - 1 John 5:7 (Johannine Comma) - "These Three are One" (Trinity/Godhead)

    "... First, if it be made, the masculine article, numeral, and particle are made to agree directly with three neuters—an insuperable and very bald grammatical difficulty. But if the disputed words are allowed to stand, they agree directly with two masculines and one neuter noun…where, according to a well known rule of syntax, the masculines among the group control the gender over a neuter connected with them…

    Second, if the excision is made, the eighth verse coming next to the sixth, gives us a very bald and awkward, and apparently meaningless, repetition of the Spirit’s witness twice in immediate succession.

    Third, if the excision is made, then the proposition at the end of the eighth verse [and these three agree in one], contains an unintelligible reference… "And these three agree to that (aforesaid) One"… What is that aforesaid unity to which these three agree? If the seventh verse is exscinded, there is none… Let the seventh verse stand, and all is clear: the three earthly witnesses testify to that aforementioned unity which the Father, Word, and Spirit constitute." [18]

    "There is a coherency in the whole which presents a very, strong internal evidence for the genuineness of the received text." [19] ..." - Why 1 John 5:7-8 is in the Bible

    "... This note has nothing to do with the "internal evidence" about which WH have been so eloquent. There is nothing so subjective as transcriptional probability and intrinsic probability meant here, but instead has to do with grammatical, geographical, and logical considerations. Or, in other words, the FACTS of the passage. In this particular case, if we omit the Comma, we are faced with tremendous grammatical difficulties. If we leave the verse as it stands in most Greek texts, we are given "witnesses" (hoy marturountes) in verse 7 which are masculine, with three neuter nouns in verse 8 (to pneuma kai to hudor kai to aima), which are then said to agree as one. In other words, by the rule of Greek syntax known as the "power of attraction" which says that the masculines among a group control the gender of a neuter connected with that group, we are given three masculine witnesses which are supposed to agree as one neuter witness. This is a grammatical impossibility. The genders don't match. On the other hand, if you accept the Comma as a part of the text, you would have two masculine subjects (the Father and the Word, "ho patare, ho logos") to agree with the masculine witnesses. (I hated this stuff when I was taking Greek - I can't believe I'm having to deal with it again!) It is therefore seen that on the basis of internal considerations the inclusion of the text is a must in order to avoid violating basic Greek grammar. ..."- 1 John 5:7
    I cited that at least 3 times now, the first two [1] and [2] and the 3rd in this very reply.

    Deal with the evidences I have given on several occasions now, instead of parroting, non-sourced websites, which you obviously just swallowed instead of thoroughly investigating what is stated in them. I do not accept merely asserted positions, documentation I require. The phrase exists in far older Latin, and other source materials, as well as other Koine Greek mss not listed in your response.

    Terrible blindness you have, terrible pride that will not let you see, nor hear, nor acknowledge.


    First, the statement is not true at all. All scholars do not consider it to be spurious. Only the "critical" [non-bible-preservation-believing-skeptics and doubters, like the Jesuit Carlo Maria Martini, S.J. on the UBS committees, Metzger, Alands, etal., some who do not even believe in inspiration of the text] scholars, and they are the minority among professed beleivers. They are something like the highpriests of evolutionism and uniformitarianism of the world, like Dawkins, Hitchens [dead], Hawking [dead, starting to drop like flies ...], etc.


    Indeed, the "critical" editions of only "Greek" text, all corrupted, Jesuit influence editions [and I mean more the C.M. Martini, S.J., I mean peoples like Westcott and Hort, Tregelles, Lightfoot] etc.


    You just disproved what you earlier cited in regards the evidences. Also, the "Stuttgart" is not the received text, neither the Ben Chayyim Hebrew; original Masoretic text. The Stuttgart Biblia Hebraica [(as originated by anti-Semite Rudolf Kittel; a German and whose "son was the theologian and Nazi apologist Gerhard Kittel." [1]] and based on readings in the Leningrad manuscript] text [Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia; BHS, BH4], is from Ben Asher a Leningrad codex [Codex Leningradensis] as known:

    "... In 1935, the Leningrad Codex was lent to the Old Testament Seminar of the University of Leipzig for two years while Paul E. Kahle supervised its transcription for the Hebrew text of the third edition of Biblia Hebraica (BHK), published in Stuttgart, 1937. The codex was also used for Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (BHS) in 1977, and is being used for Biblia Hebraica Quinta (BHQ), ..." - Leningrad Codex - Wikipedia

    A single codex, from a German anti-semitic family is going to be your foundation of rejecting the text?

    Nonsense again, since it was never required of any so-called 'patristic' in any language to have cited it to have been original in scripture. There are plethoras of passages in scripture which no such 'patrisitc' cites in any language. Are you going to disclude those passages as they are not cited therein? Foolishness.

    Also, in regards the 'Arian' [a rather vague term with broad defintions] controversies [still going on today, hello!, ain't nothing new under the sun], what is Tertullian and others doing quoting the thing? Were they making it up on the fly? If so, where are the thousands of letters rebuking these people from adding to the words of God?

    "... [01] Tertullian [circa. AD 220]

    [02] Cyprian of Carthage [circa. AD 258], Treatises (I 5:423): “... and again it is written of the Father, , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, , 'And these three are one.' ...”

    [03] Priscillan [circa. AD 358]

    [04] The Speculum [5th Cent.], Pseudo-Augustine

    [05] Creed “Esposito Fidei [5th/6th Cent.]

    [06] Old Latin [5th/6th Cent.] ..."
    Sure, in over 300 years, just from Tertullians time up to the "Old Latin" of the 5/6th cent., someone should have commented on these people making stuff up! Where is that evidence?

    You do realize that in the 'Arian' controversies, because of what the text says, would not have favoured either side. All sides had basically understood the Eternal person of the Father, some argued about the eternality of the person of the Son, and only minor few ever argued about the personhood of the Holy Spirit. They agreed that the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit were in scripture, but they argued about the latter two persons eternality and the latter final's personhood. They would have no contention as to being in Heaven or being witnesses, as per other texts. Even today's spiritual children of 'arians', the WTS, Jehovah's Witnesses and others do not argue that the Son was not in Heaven before, even though they believe He was created at some point in eternity past, and they do not argue that the Holy Ghost is not a witness, even though they believe that the Holy Ghost is not actually a person. It is how they read into the texts these things.

    However, to further compound the problem you have, is that history shows you in error, they did argue:

    "Consider, first, THE THEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT. “The strength of forgery or interpolation is similarity and not uniqueness. The Trinitarian formula, ‘Father, Word, and Holy Spirit’ is unique not only for John but for all NT writers. The usual formula, ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ would have been assuredly used by a forger. [Incidentally, this argument is an antidote for rationalists who repudiate the authenticity of the Petrine authorship of 2 Peter. Peter uses a unique spelling for his name (Sumeon), which is also the first word of the Epistle, to demonstrate his mark of authorship. What forger would pass three dollar bills? Only the authority, the government, would attempt such a unique action.]” (Dr. Thomas Strouse, A Critique of D.A. Carson’s The King James Version Debate, 1980).

    Another consideration is THE GRAMMATICAL ARGUMENT. “The omission of the Johannine Comma leaves much to be desired grammatically. The words ‘Spirit,’ ‘water’ and ‘blood’ are all neuters, yet they are treated as masculine in verse 8. This is strange if the Johannine Comma is omitted, but it can be accounted for if it is retained; the masculine nouns ‘Father’ and ‘word’ in verse 7 regulate the gender in the succeeding verse due to the power of attraction principle. The argument that the ‘Spirit’ is personalized and therefore masculine is offset by verse 6 which is definitely referring to the personal Holy Spirit yet using the neuter gender. [I. H. Marshall is a current voice for this argument: ‘It is striking that although Spirit, water, and blood are all neuter nouns in Greek, they are introduced by a clause expressed in the masculine plural ... Here in 1 John he clearly regards the Spirit as personal, and this leads to the personification of the water and the blood’ The Epistles of John (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publ. Co., 1978), p. 237n.] Moreover, the words ‘that one’ (to hen) in verse 8 have no antecedent if verse 7 is omitted, [Marshall calls this construction ‘unparalleled,’ p. 237] whereas if verse 7 is retained, then the antecedent is ‘these three are one’ (to hen)” (Strouse, A Critique of D.A. Carson’s The King James Version Debate).

    The grammatical argument has been treated lightly by modern textual critics, but its importance was understood by GREGORY NAZIANZUS (Oration XXXII: Fifth Theological Oration: “On the Holy Spirit,” A.D. 390; see Michael Maynard, A History of the Debate over 1 John 5:7-8), FREDERIC NOLAN (An Inquiry into the Integrity of the Greek Vulgate or Received Text of the New Testament, 1815), ROBERT DABNEY (“The Doctrinal Various Readings of the New Testament Greek,” 1891), THOMAS MIDDLETON (The Doctrine of the Greek article: applied to the criticism and illustration of the New Testament, 1833), MATTHEW HENRY (Commentary on the Whole Bible, 1706), EDWARD F. HILLS (The King James Bible Defended: a Space-age Defense of the Historic Christian Faith, 1956), LOUIS GAUSSEN (The Inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, 1934), to name a few. I take my stand with these men.

    Consider, too, THE ARGUMENT FROM THE PURPOSE OF JOHN’S WRITINGS AND OF THE NATURE OF THOSE TIMES.

    “Regarding the issue at hand, such a distinct literary/historical coherence fully supports the inclusion of the Johannine Comma. The resounding theme of the Gospel of John is the divinity of Jesus Christ. Such is summed up in John 10:30, when Jesus says, ‘I and my Father are one.’ This same theme is prevalent in the Epistle, being concisely and clearly stated in 5:7-8.The Comma truly bears coherence with the message of John’s Gospel in this sense. It serves as an occasion to introduce the doctrine of the Trinity as the original readers prepared to study the attached Gospel. Although Christ’s divinity is inferred throughout the epistle, one is not confronted with such succinct declaration as is conveyed in the Comma. If this passage is omitted, it seems that the theme of John's Gospel would lack a proper introduction.

    “It is interesting to note that one of the earliest allusions to the Johannine Comma in church history is promulgated in connection to the thematic statement made by the Lord in John 10:30. [The fact that this allusion was made less than two centuries after the completion of the New Testament serves as convincing external evidence for the authenticity of the Johannine Comma.] Cyprian writes around A.D. 250, ‘The Lord says “I and the Father are one' and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.”’ [The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Church Fathers Down to A.D. 325 (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1926), 5:423.] The theological teaching of the Comma most definitely bears coherence with the overriding theme of John’s Gospel. There is no reason to believe that the verse is not genuine in this sense, for it serves as a proper prelude to the theme of the Gospel which, historically speaking, most likely accompanied the Epistle as it was sent out to its original audience.

    “The heresy of Gnosticism is also of notable importance with regard to the historical context surrounding the Johannine Comma. This ‘unethical intellectualism’ had begun to make inroads among churches in John’s day; its influence would continue to grow up until the second century when it gave pure Christianity a giant struggle. [Robertson, 6:200] Generally speaking, Gnosticism can be described as a variety of syncretic religious movements in the early period of church history that sought to answer the question, ‘What must I do to be saved?’ The Gnostic answer was that a person must possess a secret knowledge. Proponents of Gnosticism claimed to possess a superior knowledge and so were called Gnostics.] One of the major tenets of Gnosticism was the essential evil of matter; the physical body, in other words, was viewed as evil. According to this line of thought, Jesus Christ could not have been fully God and fully man, for this would have required him to posses an evil physical body.

    “The seeds of the Gnostic heresy seem to be before John’s mind in his first epistle; nine times he gives tests for knowing truth in conjunction with the verb ginosko (to know). [1 John 2:3, 5; 3:16, 19, 24; 4:2, 6, 13; 5:2] This being said, the Johannine Comma would have constituted an integral component of the case the Apostle made against the false teachings of the Gnostics, especially with regard to the nature of Christ. Robertson notes that John's Gospel was written to prove the deity of Christ, assuming his humanity, while 1 John was written to prove the humanity of Christ, assuming his deity. [Robertson, 6:201] He goes on to say, ‘Certainly both ideas appear in both books.’ If these notions are true, then the Comma is important to John’s polemic. Jesus Christ, the human Son of God, is the eternal, living Word (cf. John 1:1). The Word, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, bears witness to ‘he that came by water and blood,’ even Jesus Christ (1 John 5:6). This assertion would have flown right into the face of Gnosticism” (Jesse M. Boyd, “And These Three Are One: A Case for the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8,” 1999, "And These Three Are One" A Case For the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8).

    Another consideration is THE ARGUMENT FROM THE GREEK MANUSCRIPT RECORD. D.A. Carson, probably following Bruce Metzger’s A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (3rd edition corrected, 1975), claims there are only four MSS containing the Johannine Comma. In fact, the UBS 4th Greek N.T. lists 8 manuscripts that contain the comma, four in the text (61, 629, 2318, 918) and four in the margin (88, 221, 429, 636).

    When considering the Greek manuscript evidence for or against the Johannine Comma, it is important to understand that there are only five manuscripts dating from the 2nd to the 7th century that even contain the fifth chapter of 1 John (Michael Maynard, A History of the Debate over 1 John 5:7-8, Tempe, AZ: Comma Publications, 1995). None of the papyrus contains this portion of Scripture.

    Further, it is important to understand that some Greek manuscripts cited by editors in the 16th and 17th centuries are no longer extant. The Complutensian Bible, produced by several Catholic scholars, was based on Greek manuscripts obtained from the Vatican library and elsewhere. They included 1 John 5:7 on the authority of “ancient codices” that were in their possession. Further, Robert Stephens, who produced several editions of the Greek Received Text, obtained ancient Greek manuscripts from the Royal Library at Paris. He refused to allow even one letter that was not supported by what he considered to be the best Greek manuscripts. When he compared these manuscripts to the Complutensian, he found that they agreed. In the margin of the 3rd edition of his Greek N.T. he said seven of the 15 or 16 Greek manuscripts in his possession contained the Johannine Comma. Theodore Beza borrowed these manuscripts from Robert Stephens’ son Henry and further testified that 1 John 5:7 is found in “some ancient manuscripts of Stephens.”

    In the 16th and 17th centuries, both the Catholic and the Reformation editors were convinced of the authenticity of 1 John 5:7 based on the Greek manuscript evidence that was before them.

    It is probable that some of this evidence has been lost. Consider the following important statements:

    “Erasmus, in his Notes on the place, owns that the Spanish Edition took it from a Vatican MS, and Father Amelote, in his Notes on his own Version of the Greek Testament, affirms, that he had seen this verse in the most ancient copy of the Vatican Library. The learned Author of the Enquiry into the Authority of the Complutensian Edition of the New Testament [Richard Smalbroke], in a letter to Dr. Bentley, from these and many other arguments, proves it to be little less than certain, that the controverted passage 1 Joh. v.7 was found in the ancient Vatican MS, so particularly recommended by Pope Leo to the Editors at Complutum” (Leonard Twells, A Critical Examination of the Late New Text and Version of the New Testament, 1731, II, p. 128).

    “Can we peruse the account which is given of the labours of Laurentius Valla [he collated the Latin against the Greek in the 15th century], of the Complutensian Editors of the Old and New Testaments, of Robert Stephens, the Parisain printer, and of Theodore Beza, without believing, that they found this passage in several valuable Greek manuscripts? All those learned and honourable men could not surely have combined to assert, in the face of the Christian world, that they had examined and collated manuscripts which contained this verse. Where would be our candour and charity, if we should suppose them capable of such an intentional and deliberate falsification of the Scriptures, and of doing this in concert? Would not this be to rob them of their honest and well-earned reputation, for learning and worth, for probity and honour, and to stigmatize them as cheats and impostors? It is supposed, that those Greek manuscripts which were used by the first editors of the New Testament, have been lost by being neglected, or destroyed after they had been used for this purpose. The manuscripts which were used by the Complutensian Editors, under the direction of Cardinal Ximenes, it is said, were never returned to the library of the Vatican, but are either lost, or lie concealed in some of the libraries in Spain. The manuscripts which were borrowed by Robert Stephens, from the Royal Library at Paris, have never found their way back thither, or at least, they are not now, it is said, in that Library. ... Though, however, it could be proved, that there did not exist at this hour, a single Greek manuscript which exhibited the verse in question, yet still the testimonies of their former existence, which have been produced, should overbalance, it is conceived, in the view of every unprejudiced mind, any unfavourable presumption arising from this circumstance” (Robert Jack, Remarks on the Authenticity of 1 John v. 7).

    Consider, too, THE ARGUMENT FROM THE GREEK LECTIONARIES AND PRINTED BIBLES. It is a fascinating fact that though the majority of extant Greek manuscripts do not contain 1 John 5:7, many of the lectionaries of the Greek Orthodox Church do contain it, as do the printed Greek Bibles. The lectionaries are Scripture passages organized to be read in the churches.

    The printed lectionaries in the Greek Orthodox Church since the 16th century have often included 1 John 5:7. This is an important fact, because it is not reasonable to believe that the Greek Orthodox Church would “correct” its own text from Latin.

    1 John 5:7 was in the Apostolos or Collection of Lessons (5th century), “read in the Greek Church, out of the Apostolical Epistles, and printed at Venice, An. 1602. Velut ab Antiquis seculis recepta Lectio, says Selden de Synedriis, l.2, c.4. Art. 4. This Lectionary is as old as the fifth century. Vide Millii Prol. 1054, and Mr. Martin’s Dissertation, Part I. c. 13” (Leonard Twells, A Critical Examination of the Late New Text and Version of the New Testament, 1731, II, p. 129).

    1 John 5:7 was in the lectionary Ordo Romanus (A.D. 730) (Twells, II, p. 133). The Trinitarian text was to be read between Easter and Whitsuntide, “as we learn from Durandus, a writer of the fourteenth century, in his Rationale of Divine Offices.”

    The Greek Orthodox Church’s printed New Testaments, both ancient and modern, contain 1 John 5:7. Again, it not possible to believe that they would include this on the basis of anything other than evidence from Greek. Being keepers of the Greek language, they would despise the Latin.

    Another consideration is THE ARGUMENT FROM THE LATIN MANUSCRIPT RECORD. The majority of Latin New Testament manuscripts from the past 900 years contain 1 John 5:7. Further, some of the most ancient also contain it. “It is not true, that the most ancient Latin MSS. Of the New Testament want the celebrated passage of 1 John 5:7. For the Bible of Charlemagne revised and corrected by the learned Alcuin, has that text by the confession of our adversaries, and they have not been able to produce an older MS. Where it is missing. The only pretended one of this sort, is Mabillon’s Lectionary, which after all is not strictly a MS. of the New Testament, nor written in Latin but in a mixed language, called Teutonick-French, or Gallo-Teutonick” (Twells, II, p. 153).

    THE ARGUMENT FROM THE WRITINGS OF ANCIENT CHURCH LEADERS. Following are some quotations that refer to the Johannine Comma from church writings dating to the first eight centuries of the church age:

    Tertullian (c. 200 A.D.) -- “The connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Comforter, makes an unity of these three, one with another, which three are one,--not one person; in like manner as it is said, I and my Father are one, to denote the unity of substance, and not the singularity of number” (Against Praxeas, II, Ante-Nicene Fathers). “We find, therefore, that about A.D. 200, not much more than an hundred years after this Epistle was written, Tertullian refers to the verse in question, to prove that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one in essence; a satisfactory evidence, that this doctrine, though asserted by some in our time, to be a dangerous novelty, was really the acknowledged faith of Christians in those early times” (Robert Jack, Remarks on the Authenticity of 1 John v. 7).

    Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 A.D.) -- “The Lord says ‘I and the Father are one’ and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one’” (De Unitate Ecclesiae, [On The Unity of the Church], The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Church Fathers Down to A.D.325). Here Cyprian quotes from John 10:30 and 1 John 5:7. Nowhere else in Scripture do we find the words “and these three are one.” “It is true that Facundus, a 6th-century African bishop, interpreted Cyprian as referring to the following verse, but, as Scrivener (1883) remarks, it is ‘surely safer and more candid’ to admit that Cyprian read the Johannine comma in his New Testament manuscript ‘than to resort to the explanation of Facundus’” (Edward Hills, p. 210). Leonard Twells adds, “This noble testimony invincibly proves, that the passage now under debate, was in approved copies of the third century” (A Critical Examination of the Late New Text and Version of the New Testament, 1731, II, p. 134).

    Athanasius (c. 350 A.D.) quotes 1 John 5:7 at least three times in his works (R.E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, Epistles of John, 1982, p. 782). “Among the works of Athanasius which are generally allowed to be genuine, is a Synopsis of this Epistle. In his summary of the fifth chapter, he seems plainly to refer to this verse, when he says, ‘The Apostle here teaches, the unity of the Son with the Father’ [Du Pin, Art. “Athanasius,” London Edition, vol. 8, p. 34]. But it would be difficult to find any place in this chapter where this unity is taught, save in the seventh verse” (Jack, Remarks on the Authenticity of 1 John v. 7).

    Priscillian (380 A.D.), who was beheaded in 385 by Emperor Maximus on the charge of heresy, quoted 1 John 5:7. “As John says ‘and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus’” (Liber Apologeticus).

    Idacius Clarus (380 A.D.), Priscillian’s principal adversary and accuser, also cited 1 John 5:7 (Hills, p. 210).

    Jerome (382 A.D.) -- Jerome not only believed that the Johannine Comma was Scripture but he testified that “irresponsible translators left out this testimony in the Greek codices” (Prologue to the Canonical Epistles; quoted from Strouse, A Critique of D.A. Carson’s “The King James Version Debate”). Jerome said further in his Prologue: “...these Epistles I have restored to their proper order; which, if arranged agreeably to the original text, and faithfully interpreted in Latin diction, would neither cause perplexity to the readers, nor would the various readings contradict themselves, especially in that place where we read the unity of the Trinity laid down in the Epistle of John. In this I found translators (or copyists) widely deviating from the truth; who set down in their own edition the names only of the three witnesses, that is, the Water, Blood, and Spirit; but omit the testimony of the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; by which, above all places, the Divinity of the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is proved to be one” (Prologue to the Canonical Epistles; quoted from Ben David, Three Letters Addressed to the Editor of The Quarterly Review, in which is Demonstrated the Genuineness of The Three Heavenly Witnesses--I John v. 7, London, 1825).

    Theodorus (4th century) -- In “A treatise on one God in the Trinity, from the Epistle of John the Evangelist” he stated that John, in his Epistle, presents God as a Trinity (Ben David, “Three Letters Addressed to the Editor of The Quarterly Review, in which is Demonstrated the Genuineness of The Three Heavenly Witnesses--I John v. 7,” London, 1825). Ben David observes: “This is a remarkable testimony, as it implies the existence and notoriety of the verse about the middle of the fourth century.”

    Gregory of Nazanzius (4th century) -- “What about John then, when in his Catholic Epistle he says that there are Three that bear witness, the Spirit and the Water and the Blood? Do you think he is talking nonsense? First, because he has ventured to reckon under one numeral things which are not consubstantial, though you say this ought to be done only in the case of things which are consubstantial. For who would assert that these are consubstantial? Secondly, because he had not been consistent in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using Three in the masculine gender he adds three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your grammarians have laid down. For what is the difference between putting a masculine Three first, and then adding One and One and One in the neuter, or after a masculine One and One and One to use the Three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourself disclaim in the case of Deity?” (The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers). “Metzger claims that ‘the passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers.’ Such a bold assertion is also misleading because Gregory of Nazanzius (a Greek Church Father from the fourth century), although not directly quoting the passage, specifically alludes to the passage and objects to the grammatical structure if the Comma is omitted (Metzger, on the other hand, would have one to believe that the Greek Church Fathers knew nothing of the passage)” (Jesse Boyd, “And These Three Are One: A Case for the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8,” 1999, "And These Three Are One" A Case For the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8).

    Eucherius of Lyons (434 A.D.) -- “... in a tract, called Formulae Spiritualis Intelligentiae, c. 11, para. 3, 4. sets down both the seventh and eighth verses of the fifth chapter of St. John’s first epistle, in the same order as our printed editions have them, precluding thereby the common cavil, that the seventh verse is only a mystical explication of the eighth” (Twells, II, p. 135).

    Vigilius Tapsensis (484 A.D.) -- “... twice in his books concerning the Trinity, printed among the Works of Athanasius (viz. Book first, and seventh) and also in his Tract against Varimadus the Arian, under the name of Idacius Clarus, cites 1 John 5:7” (Twells, II, p. 135).

    Victor Vitensis (484 A.D.) -- “... contemporary with Vigilius, writes the History of the Vandalic Persecution, in which he sets down a Confession of Faith, which Eugenius Bishop of Carthage, and the orthodox bishops of Africa, offered to King Hunnerick, a favourer of the Arians, who called upon those bishops to justify the catholic doctrine of the Trinity. In this Confession, presented Anno 484, among other places of Scripture, they defended the orthodox clause from 1 John 5:7, giving thereby the highest attestation, that they believed it to be genuine. Nor did the Arians, that we can find, object to it. So that the contending parties of those days seem to have agreed in reputing that passage authentic” (Twells, II, pp. 135, 136).

    Eugenius at the Council of Carthage (485 A.D.) -- “...and in order that we may teach until now, more clearly than light, that the Holy Spirit is now one divinity with the Father and the Son. It is proved by the evangelist John, for he says, ‘there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one’” (Victor of Vitensis, Historia persecutionis Africanae, quoted from Michael Maynard, A History of the Debate over 1 John 5:7-8, p. 43). We will see say more about the significance of this quotation.

    Fulgentius Ruspensis (507 A.D.) -- “... another orthodox writer of the same country, cites the controverted words in three several places of his Works. Which further evinces, that the Arians about Hunneric, had not been able to disprove that text. For if they had, no writer for the Catholic side of the question, would have dared to use a baffled testimony, whilst the memory of that defeat was yet recent” (Twells, II, p. 136).

    Cassiodorius (550 A.D.) -- “... a patrician of Rome, a person remarkable for zealously recommending the choice of ancient and correct copies of the Bible to the monks under his direction, for their constant use, copies purged from error by collation with the Greek text; and that, in doubtful places, they should consult two or three ancient and correct books. So affectionately concerned was he for the purity of the sacred text, that whilst he left the correcting of other books to his Notaries, he would trust no hand but his own in reforming the Bible. Further, he himself declares, that he wrote his Treatise of Orthography, purposely to promote the faithful transcribing of the Scripture. It must therefore be of considerable importance, in the present dispute, to know that the reading of his copy, 1 John 5:7. And of all his Tracts, none was so likely to satisfy our curiosity as that entitled Complexiones, which were short and running notes, on the apostolical epistles and Acts, and the Revelation. ... But Cassiodorius’s Complexiones were given up for lost, among other treasures of ancient literature, when, soon after the learned and judicious Mr. Martin had ended his labours upon this subject, that piece was unexpectedly found in the Library of Verona, and published at Florence by Scipio Maffeius [Francesco Scipione Maffei (1675-1755)], An. 1721. And from thence we have all the satisfaction we can desire, that the contested passage was in Cassiodorius’s copy. For in his comment on 1 John 5:1 and following verses, he concludes with these words: Testificantur in Terra tria Mysteria, Aqua, Sanguis, & Spiritus: quae in Passione Domini leguntur completa: in Caelo autem Pater, & Filius, & Spiritus Sanctus, & hi tres unus est Deus. [The three mysteries testify (bear witness) on earth, the water, blood and the spirit, which are read in full in the passion of (our) Lord: likewise, in heaven, the Father, and Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three, one is God.] After which he proceeds to cite and explain the ninth verse of that chapter” (Twells, II, pp. 136, 137).

    Maximus, a Greek writer (645 A.D.), author of the Disputes in the Council of Nice (among the works of Athanasius) cites therein 1 John 5:7 (Twells, II, p. 129).

    Isiodore Mercator (785 A.D.) “is supposed to have forged the Decretal Epistles published by him. In the first of Pope Hyginus, 1 John 5:7,8 are cited, though the present order of them is inverted, as it was probably in Cassiodorius’s copy also. The spurious character of these epistles no way hurts their authority, for the contested text being in the copies of those times” (Twells, II, p. 137).

    Ambrosius Authpertus (8th century), “of the same age, wrote a commentary upon the Revelations yet extant, in which the words of 1 John 5:7 are brought in as explicatory of Revelation 1:5” (Twells, II, p. 138).

    In the Glossa Ordinaria of Walafrid Strabo (9th century), “a work universally approved, we see the passages of the three Witnesses in Heaven, both in the text and the commentary” (Twells, II, p. 138).

    “Lastly, we find no one Latin writer complaining of this passage (which appears to have been extant in many copies from the fifth century inclusive) as an interpolation, which is a very good negative evidence, that no just objection could be made to its genuineness. The Preface of Jerome blames some translators for omitting it, but till the days of Erasmus, the insertion of it was never deemed a fault” (Twells, II, p. 138).

    THE ARGUMENT FROM THE COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE. As we have seen, Eugenius, spokesman for the African bishops at the Council of Carthage (485 A.D.), quoted 1 John 5:7 in defense of the deity of Jesus Christ against the Arians. The bishops, numbering three to four hundred, were from Mauritania, Sardinia, Corsica, and the Balearick Isles, and they stood in defense of the Trinity. They “pawned their lives as well as reputation, for the verity of that disputed passage” (Twells, II, p. 147). Eugenius said: “...and in order that we may teach until now, more clearly than light, that the Holy Spirit is now one divinity with the Father and the Son. It is proved by the evangelist John, for he says, ‘there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one’” In spite of claims to the contrary by those who oppose the Johannine Comma, the fact that 1 John 5:7 was quoted at the fifth century Council of Carthage is a nearly irrefutable argument in favor of its apostolic authenticity. “Charles Butler, in Horae Biblicae [Part II, A Short Historical Outline of the Disputes Respecting the Authenticity of the Verse of the Three Heavenly Witnesses of 1 John, 1807], offered an interesting 12-point rebuttal to the opposers of the Comma. Such is a lengthy treatise and will not be employed word for word but adequately summarized. Butler pointed out that the Catholic Bishops were summoned to a conference where they most certainly expected the tenets of their faith to be attacked by the Arians (the Arians denied the deity of Jesus Christ). Therefore, they would have been very careful about what they included in their proposed confession, seeing as all power was in the hands of their angry Arian adversaries. The bishops included the Johannine Comma as a first line of defense for their confession of Christ’s deity. If the Arians could have argued what present-day opposers of the verse say (the Comma was is no Greek copy and in only a few Lain copies), what would the bishops have replied? If we are to believe that they were unable to hold out one Greek copy, no ancient Latin copy, and no ancient father where the verse could be found, THE ARIANS COULD HAVE RIGHTLY ACCUSED THEM ON THE SPOT OF FOLLOWING A SPURIOUS PASSAGE AND BEING GUILTY OF PALPABLE FALSEHOOD. It is almost certain that these bishops would not have exposed themselves to such immediate and indelible infamy. They volunteered to include the Comma in their confession despite the existence of many long treatises that had been written by the ancient defenders of the Trinity in which the verse had not been mentioned. Such treatises would have served as ample evidence, but the bishops cited 1 John 5:7-8 instead. Obviously, they had no fear that any claim of spuriousness could be legitimately dashed upon them. If the verse were attacked, the bishops could have produced Greek copies, ancient Latin copies, and ancient fathers in its defense. The Comma, however, was not attacked by the Arians and the Catholic bishops (302 of them) were exiled to different parts of Africa, exposed to the insults of their enemies, and carefully deprived of all temporal and spiritual comforts of life. It is ludicrous to think that these men could undergo such persecution and suffering for their belief of the deity of Jesus Christ only to insert a spurious verse into God’s Word as their first line of defense. THE AFRICAN BISHOPS MUST HAVE HAD WEIGHTY TESTIMONY TO THE COMMA IN THEIR MANUSCRIPTS. AS A RESULT, THEY WERE ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY EMPLOY THE PASSAGE AS THEY DEFENDED THEIR FAITH BEFORE THE ARIAN ACCUSERS” (Jesse Boyd, And These Three Are One: A Case for the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8 Rooted in Biblical Exegesis, 1999).

    THE ARGUMENT FROM THE ASSEMBLY GATHERED BY CHARLEMAGNE. “About the close of the eighth century, the Emperor Charlemagne assembled all the learned men that were to be found in that age, and placed Alciunus, an Englishman of great erudition, at their head; instructing them to revise the manuscripts of the Bible then in use, to settle the text, and to rectify the errors which had crept into it, through the haste or the ignorance of transcribers. To affect this great purpose, he furnished them with every manuscript that could be procured throughout his very extensive dominions. IN THEIR CORRECTORIUM, THE RESULT OF THEIR UNITED LABOURS, WHICH WAS PRESENTED IN PUBLIC TO THE EMPEROR, BY ALCIUNUS, THE TESTIMONY OF THE THREE (HEAVENLY) WITNESSES IS READ WITHOUT THE SMALLEST IMPEACHMENT OF ITS AUTHENTICITY. This very volume Baronius affirms to have been extant at Rome in his lifetime,* in the library of the Abbey of Vaux-Celles; and he styles is ‘a treasure of inestimable value.’ [* He was born in or about A.D. 1538, and died in A.D. 1607. Du Pin confirms this account of Baronius, v. vi. p. 122. Travis p. 24.] It cannot be supposed, that these divines, assembled under the auspices of a prince zealous for the restoration of learning, would attempt to settle the text of the New Testament, without referring to the Greek original; especially since we know, that there were, at that time, persons eminently skilled in the Greek language. THEY MUST HAVE HAD ACCESS TO PERUSE MANUSCRIPTS WHICH HAVE LONG SINCE PERISHED; AND THEIR RESEARCHES MIGHT IN ALL PROBABILITY EXTEND EVEN TO THE AGE OF THE APOSTLES. Here, then, is evidence, that this verse has been acknowledged as a part of Scripture, during more than a thousand years” (Robert Jack, Remarks on the Authenticity of 1 John v. 7). ..." - A Defense of 1 John 5:7

    Again, I already cited the evidence, here it is again:

    "... [1] Manuscripts [MSS]

    Cursives [Greek lowercase]:

    [01] #61 [aka Codex Montfortianus] - 16th Cent.
    [02] #88 [aka Codex Regis [margin, 16th Cent.]] - 12th Cent.
    [03] #177 [BSB Codex graeci 211 [margin, 15th Cent.] - 11th Cent.
    [04] #221 [margin, 15th/16th Cent.] - 10th Cent.

    [05] #429 [aka Codex Wolfenbuttel, margin, 16th Cent.] - 14th Cent.
    [06] #629 [aka Codex Ottobonianus] - 14th Cent.
    [07] #535 - 11th Cent.

    [08] #636 [margin] - 15th Cent.
    [09] #918 - 16th Cent.
    [10] #2318 - 18th Cent.
    [11] #2473 - 18th Cent. ..."​

    MS 535 is 11th Century, thats 1001 to 1100, non marginal. That is before 1215 and that is just the Greek stuff. Whoever said that God was going to preserve the words in only one language?

    Real guesswork in there, "may have been" ... and assertions "Apparently". Again, how did these [below] get it? You do relaize that Tertullian is well before 4th cent. and so also Cyprian of Carthage?

    "... [01] Tertullian [circa. AD 220]

    [02] Cyprian of Carthage [circa. AD 258], Treatises (I 5:423): “... and again it is written of the Father, , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, , 'And these three are one.' ...”

    [03] Priscillan [circa. AD 358]

    [04] The Speculum [5th Cent.], Pseudo-Augustine

    [05] Creed “Esposito Fidei [5th/6th Cent.]

    [06] Old Latin [5th/6th Cent.] ..."
    The response you give is the typical attempt at trying to reduce the entire argument of Jesus' eternality, Godhead/Deity, down to 1 John 5:7's validity.

    You could attempt to tear that passage out of every text in the world [you would fail, it is preserved by God; Psalms 12:6,7 KJB, etc.], and it would not help such a cause in dealing with all of the other textual evidences cited, Hebrews 1, Colossians 1, Genesis 17-19; Exodus 3-4; Joshua 5, John 1 & 8, and so on and on. It would not detract one iota from Jesus as the Chief Shepherd who came to seek and save that which is lost, and so on.

    But, again, consider the further evidences:

    "... THE ARGUMENT FROM ITS PRESERVATION AMONG BIBLE BELIEVERS. The Lord Jesus Christ indicated that His Words would be preserved through the process of the Great Commission, as the Scriptures were received, kept, taught, and transmitted to the next generation by Bible-believing churches (Matt. 28:18-20). This is guaranteed by the Christ’s power and His continual presence among the churches. When we look at church history in this light, the issue of 1 John 5:7 becomes plainer. Consider the versional evidence in favor of this verse:

    1 John 5:7 is found in some of the Syriac manuscripts, though not the majority (The New Testament Translated from the Syriac Peshito Version, James Murdock, 1852, note on 1 John 5:7). 1 John 5:7 was printed in Gutbier’s Lexicon Syricum concerdatntiale omnes N.T. Syriaci (1664); it is obvious, therefore, that Gutbier found this important verse in Syriac manuscripts with which he was familiar. It was also printed by E. Hutter in 1599 in the Syriac portion of his polyglot (e-mail from Michael Maynard, May 11, 2005).

    1 John 5:7 was in the old Latin that was used by Bible believers in Europe. Dr. Frederick Nolan (1784-1864) spent 28 years tracing the history of the European Italic or Old Latin version and in 1815 published his findings in An Inquiry into the Integrity of the Greek Vulgate or Received Text of the New Testament, in which the Greek manuscripts are newly classed, the integrity of the Authorised Text vindicated, and the various readings traced to their origin. Nolan believed that the old Latin got its name Italic from the churches in northern Italy that remained separated from Rome and that this text was maintained by separatist Waldensian believers. He concluded that 1 John 5:7 “was adopted in the version which prevailed in the Latin Church, previously to the introduction of the modern Vulgate” (Nolan, Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, pp. xvii, xviii).

    1 John 5:7 was in the Latin “vulgate” that had a wide influence throughout the Dark Ages. The Catholic Church used it, but so did many non-Catholic believers. Bruce Metzger observes that the oldest manuscript of the Jerome vulgate, Codex Fuldensis (A.D. 546), does not include the Johannine Comma; but this fact is overwhelmed by other evidence. For one, we have seen that Jerome himself believed 1 John 5:7 was genuine Scripture and testified that heretics had removed it from some manuscripts. Second, 1 John 5:7 is found in the vast majority of extant Latin manuscripts, 49 out of every 50, according to Scrivener. Third, 1 John 5:7 is found in many of the most ancient Latin manuscripts, such as Ulmensis (c. 850) and Toletanus (988). The Johannine Comma is found “in twenty-nine of the fairest, oldest, and most correct of extant Vulgate manuscripts” (Maynard, A History of the Debate over 1 John 5:7-8, p. 343).

    1 John 5:7 was in the Romaunt or Occitan New Testaments used by the Waldenses dating back to the 12th century. This was the language of the troubadours and men of letters in the Dark Ages. It was the predecessor of French and Italian. The Romaunt Bibles were small and plain, designed for missionary work. “This version was widely spread in the south of France, and in the cities of Lombardy. It was in common use among the Waldenses of Piedmont, and it was no small part, doubtless, of the testimony borne to truth by these mountaineers to preserve and circulate it” (J. Wylie, History of Protestantism, vol. 1, chapter 7, “The Waldenses”). I examined the copy of the Romaunt New Testament located at the Cambridge University Library in April 2005, but it does not have the Epistles of John. The following is from Justin Savino , May 11, 2005: “The Zurich codex I have that is similar to the Dublin a Grenoble (or so I am told) does have 1 John 5:7. The direct quote is "Car trey son que donan testimoni al cel lo payre e lo filh e lo sant spirit e aquesti trey son un." Translated, "but three are there that give testimony in heaven the father and the son and the holy spirit and these three are one.”

    1 John 5:7 was in the Tepl, which is an old German translation used by Waldenses from the 14th through the 15 centuries. Comba, who wrote a history of the Waldenses, said the Tepl was a Waldensian translation (Comba, Waldenses of Italy, pp. 190-192). Comba sites two authorities, Ludwig Keller and Hermann Haupt, for this information. Comba also states that the Tepl was based on old Latin manuscripts rather than the Jerome vulgate. The Tepl’s size identifies it with the small Bibles carried by the Waldensian evangelists on their dangerous journeys across Europe.

    1 John 5:7 was in the old French translations. A translation of the whole Bible in French first appeared in the 13th century, and “a much used version of the whole Bible was published in 1487 by Jean de Rely” (Norlie, The Translated Bible, p. 52).

    1 John 5:7 was in the old German translations, which first appeared in the 13th and 14th centuries. A complete German Bible appeared before the invention of printing (Norlie, p. 53). There were at least 12 different editions of the Bible into German before the discovery of America in 1492. The first printed German Bible appeared in 1466 (Price, The Ancestry of Our English Bible, 1934, p. 243). These were Latin-based versions.

    1 John 5:7 was in the Spanish Bibles, beginning with the one printed in Valencia in 1478 by Bonifacio Ferrer (M’Crie, History of the Reformation in Spain, p. 191).

    It is probable that 1 John 5:7 was in the Bohemian or Czech Bible printed by the Brethren in 1488.

    1 John 5:7 stood uncontested in English Bibles for 500 years. The first English New Testament, completed by John Wycliffe and his co-laborers in 1380, contained this verse. The Johannine Comma was in the Tyndale New Testament of 1526, the Coverdale of 1535, the Matthew’s of 1537, the Great Bible of 1539, the Geneva of 1557, the Bishops of 1568, and the King James Bible of 1611. The first English Bible of any importance to remove the verse was the Revised Version of 1881 and the first English Bible which had any chance of superseding the KJV to remove 1 John 5:7 was the New International Version of 1973 and this version has still not taken over the sales of the King James Bible. From the time of the British Empire to the present, English has been a prominent world language. It is the international language in these modern times, the language of commerce, aviation, and science. The witness of the English Bible, therefore, has great significance.

    Thus we see that the Trinitarian statement of 1 John 5:7 comes down to us by the hands of Bible believers and churches that held the apostolic faith at great cost through the Dark Ages, through the Protestant Reformation, up to our very day. In light of Matthew 28:19-20, this is a strong witness to its apostolic authenticity. ..." - A Defense of 1 John 5:7
    Just as I said, a "critic" of God's word. He sat in judgment upon the word of God, and taught others to do that. I reject the UBS and N/A text types, they're not the received text, but rather an ecclectic random assortment of fragmentary evidences, stitched together by critics, who do not believe in the preservation of the word of God, but are still in fact, looking for the 'oriingal' texts. They're Alexandrian corruptions, all under the guardianship of the Jesuits. Griesbach, has already been discussed [1]. If you want German-Vatican critical readings, that's up to you. He has no weight of authority with me what so ever. If I were to choose a scholar's work, I would rather go with someone like Dean Burgon or Benjamin G Wilkinson, Gail Riplinger, Alan O Reilly, Sam Gipp, Jack Moorman, even Peter S. Ruckman, etc, on that issue - KJV Bible Vindicated
    Why do you not go back, and re-read what I have posted already, and look again at what texts I have shown are connected together? Genesis 1:1, the Aleph Tau, the passages on JEHOVAH Jesus, and JEHOVAH E/Immanuel, Hebrews 1, etc, etc?

    If you are simply going to argue about the validity of 1 John 5:7, which evidence for is overwhelming, that it never existed except as a 'gloss' [said the devil], that does not even begin to address what I started with. 1 John 5:7 KJB is inclusive within the case, not the foundation of the case.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  10. he-man

    he-man he-man

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  11. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Nothing earlier than Tenth century, no Siniaticus, Vatacanicus, Alexandrean only Manuscripts which contain 1 John 5:7-8 from:
    #61 - Sixteenth century
    #88 - Twelfth century
    #221 - Tenth century
    #429 - Fourteenth century
    #629 - Fourteenth century
    #535 - Eleventh century
    #636 - Fifteenth century
    #918 - Sixteenth century
    #2318 - Eighteenth century
    [03] #177 [BSB Codex graeci 211 [margin, 15th Cent.] - 11th Cent.
    [04] #221 [margin, 15th/16th Cent.] - 10th Cent.
    [05] #429 [aka Codex Wolfenbuttel, margin, 16th Cent.] - 14th Cent.
    [06] #629 [aka Codex Ottobonianus] - 14th Cent.
    [07] #535 - 11th Cent.
    [08] #636 [margin] - 15th Cent.
    [09] #918 - 16th Cent.
    [10] #2318 - 18th Cent.
    [11] #2473 - 18th Cent. ..."
    Strong's 1961 yehovah incorrectly transcribed as Lord and considering Hebrews 1:3 it is erroneous to imply otherwise. So, you think the Holy Spirit is a dove and it was unable to speak, but a vioce from heaven took over for the mute Dove? Now cast your eyes and open wide to see Chaldean attached below: יהוה
    Jehovah, pr. name of the supreme God
    (134 '7) amongst the Hebrews. The later Hebrews
    , for some centuries before the time of Christ, either misled by a false interpretation of certain laws (Ex. 90:7; Lev. 24:11), or else following some old
    superstition, regarded this name as so very holy, that it might not even be pronounced (see Philo, Vit. IVO-sis t. i p.519, 529). Whenever, therefore, this nomen teltagrammaton occurred in the sacred text, they were accustomed to substitute for it, and thus the vowels of the noun are in the masoretic text placed under the four letters, but with this difference, that the initial Yod receives a simple and not a compound Sh'va; prefixes, however, receive the same points as if they were followed by thus. This custom was already in vogue in the days of the LXX. translators; and thus it is that they every where they translate יהוה by θ κυριος: the Samaritans have also followed a similar custom, so that for Yehovah they
    pronounce it שפא. Where the text has it in order that adoni should not be twice repeated and they write it as such.
    As it is thus evident that the word יהוה does not stand with its own vowels, but with those of another word, the inquiry arises, what then are its true and genuine vowels? Several consider that rightly appealing to ancient writers, they have stated that the God of Israel was called yehovah.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    [In regards textual evidence for 1 John 5:7] In presently known Greek mss, correct. I already said that on at least 3 occasions now. The problem with trying to substantiate a claim through mss [rather than believing God's simple words in Psalms 12:6,7 KJB, etc] is that things among mss, etc evidence, change all of the time. Mss come into possession, found, etc, and others fade away with decay, become damaged, rubbed out, which is why they are trying to scan everything these days.

    Again, nowhere is there a divine rule that the evidence has to be in Greek, rather than preserved in another language, another copy somewhere, because if we followed that rule, what a mess among mss you would have for numerous vss.
     
  13. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    What???

    The Holy Spirit is an Eternal Person/Being, who in a singular instance at the Baptism of Jesus at the Jordan, manifested as in the form of a dove, between the Person of the Father in Heaven, and the Person of the Son, standing on earth in the water of the Jordan river. I did not anywhere say that the Holy Spirit is a "dove", a created entity. If I may ask, what is your primary language?

    The Holy Spirit did not speak at the baptism of Jesus, and nowhere did I ever say or imply that He did so. The voice of the Father Himself did speak. The Holy Spirit was silent, but moved and fluttered/hovered, as He did at Genesis, in Deuteronomy.

    Similarly, an account like it, took place on the Mount of Transfiguration, where the Father spoke to the Son, before witnesses:

    2 Peter 1:16 KJB - For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    2 Peter 1:17 KJB - For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    2 Peter 1:18 KJB - And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
    And also similarly, nearing the end of Jesus' earthly ministry:

    John 12:28 KJB - Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

    John 12:29 KJB - The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

    John 12:30 KJB - Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

    I already know God's name - JEHOVAH. In fact, most Christians do. It isn't a secret. In fact, to help you out, see Part 4, Chapter 11 here on PDF starting page 443 - http://nashpublications.com/wp-cont..._Bible/Riplinger_Books/In-Awe-of-Thy-Word.pdf

    There is no such thing as the LXX [it's actually Origen's work, well after AD 100]:

    The [supposed] Septuagint [LXX] as we presently know it, appears first in the writings of Origen [Hexapla] at near the end of the 2nd century AD, and the mention by the so-called "Letter of Aristeas", based on an unfounded and mostly discredited "legend", is seriously problematic.

    "... Most of these fables focus on an infamous “book” 14 called the Letter of Aristeas” 15 (hereafter called the Letter) and the alleged claims of the Letter’s documentation by authors who wrote before the first coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the first few centuries following His first sojourn on earth. 16 The only extant Letter is dated from the eleventh century. In addition, there is no pre-Christian Greek translation of the He-brew Old Testament text, which the Letter alleges, that has been found, in-cluding the texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls. ..." - http://www.theoldpathspublications.com/Downloads/Free/The Septuagint ebook.pdf

    "... the story of Aristeas appears comparatively rational. Yet it has long been recognized that much of it is unhistorical, in particular the professed date and nationality of the writer. Its claims to authenticity were demolished by Dr. Hody two centuries ago (De bibliorum textibus originalibus, Oxon., 1705) ..." - The Septuagint, by H. St. J. Thackeray

    De bibliorum textibus originalibus - Humfredi Hodii linguae graecae professoris regii et Archidiaconi Oxon. De bibliorum textibus originalibus, versionibus graecis, & latina vulgata libri 4..

    Other sources, identifying the same - The Septuagint

    "... Roman Catholics use the idea that Christ quoted the Septuagint to justly include the Apocrypha in their Bibles. ... Since no Hebrew Old Testament ever included the books of the Apocrypha, the Septuagint is the only source the Catholics have for justifying their canon. Many Reformers and Lutherans wrote at great length refuting the validity of the Septuagint. ..." - http://www.wcbible.org/documents/septuagint.pdf

    "... [Page 46] Proponents of the invisible LXX will try to claim that Origen didn't translate the Hebrew into Greek, but only copied the LXX into the second column of his Hexapla. Can this argument be correct? No. If it were, then that would mean that those astute 72 Jewish scholars added the Apocryphal books to their work before they were ever written. (!) Or else, Origen took the liberty to add these spurious writings to God's Holy Word (Rev. 22:18). ...

    ... Is there ANY Greek manuscript of the Old Testament written BEFORE the time of Christ? Yes. There is one minute scrap dated at 150 BC, the Ryland's Papyrus, #458. It contains Deuteronomy chapters 23-28. No more. No less. If fact, it may be the existence of this fragment that led Eucebius and Philo to assume that the entire Pentatuech had been translated by some scribe in an effort to interest Gentiles in the history of the Jews. ... [page 46]

    ... [Page 47] If there was an Aristeas, he was faced with two insurmountable problems.

    First, how did he ever locate the twelve tribes in order to pick his six representative scholars from each. Having been thoroughly scattered by their many defeats and captivities, the tribal lines of the 12 tribes had long since dissolved into virtual non-existence. It was impossible for anyone to distinctly identify the 12 individual tribes.

    Secondly, if the 12 tribes had been identified, they would not have undertaken such a translation for two compelling reasons.

    (1) Every Jew knew that the official caretaker of Scripture was the tribe of Levi as evidenced in Deuteronomy 17:18, 31:25,26 and Malachi 2:7. Thus, NO Jew of any of the eleven other tribes would dare to join such a forbidden enterprise. ..." - The Answer Book, By Sam Gipp, Page 46-47, selected portions, emphasis [bold] in original.
    However, none of this has anything to do with, in primary, to the OP, except where you do not acknowledge the scripture which teach that the Son is JEHOVAH Jesus, JEHOVAH E/Immanuel, as already cited.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  14. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Heman, maybe you can help me out here with these 4 texts:

    Hosea 1:4 KJB - And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.

    Hosea 1:5 KJB - And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

    Hosea 1:6 KJB - And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

    Hosea 1:7 KJB - But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.​

    I will even cite them from the NWT for the WTS, Jehovah Witnesses reading:

    Hosea 1:4-7 NWT - 4 Then Jehovah said to him: “Name him Jezʹre·el,* for in a little while I will hold an accounting against the house of Jeʹhui for the acts of bloodshed of Jezʹre·el, and I will put an end to the royal rule of the house of Israel.j 5 In that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley* of Jezʹre·el.” 6 She conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And He told him: “Name her Lo-ru·haʹmah,* for I will no longer show mercyk to the house of Israel, because I will certainly drive them away.l 7 But I will show mercy to the house of Judah,m and I will save them by Jehovah their God;n I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”o - [NWT]

    Sidenote: In the NWT reference 'bible', in vs 6, "He*" "*He - Jehovah."

    The Hebrew OT:

    Hosea 1:4 HOT - ויאמר יהוה אליו קרא שׁמו יזרעאל כי־עוד מעט ופקדתי את־דמי יזרעאל על־בית יהוא והשׁבתי ממלכות בית ישׂראל׃

    Hosea 1:5 HOT - והיה ביום ההוא ושׁברתי את־קשׁת ישׂראל בעמק יזרעאל׃

    Hosea 1:6 HOT - ותהר עוד ותלד בת ויאמר לו קרא שׁמה לא רחמה כי לא אוסיף עוד ארחם את־בית ישׂראל כי־נשׂא אשׂא להם׃

    Hosea 1:7 HOT - ואת־בית יהודה ארחם והושׁעתים ביהוה אלהיהם ולא אושׁיעם בקשׁת ובחרב ובמלחמה בסוסים ובפרשׁים׃​

    The Hebrew OT Translit.:

    Hosea 1:4 HOT Translit. - waYomer y'hwäh ëläyw q'rä sh'mô yiz'r'el Kiy-ôd m'a† ûfäqad'Tiy et-D'mëy yiz'r'el al-Bëyt yëhû w'hish'BaTiy mam'l'khût Bëyt yis'räël

    Hosea 1:5 HOT Translit. - w'häyäh BaYôm hahû w'shävar'Tiy et-qeshet yis'räël B'ëmeq yiz'r'el

    Hosea 1:6 HOT Translit. - waTahar ôd waTëled Bat waYomer lô q'rä sh'mäH lo ruchämäh Kiy lo ôšiyf ôd árachëm et-Bëyt yis'räël Kiy-näso eSä lähem

    Hosea 1:7 HOT Translit. - w'et-Bëyt y'hûdäh árachëm w'hôsha'Tiym Bayhwäh élohëyhem w'lo ôshiyëm B'qeshet ûv'cherev ûv'mil'chämäh B'šûšiym ûv'färäshiym​

    LXX [*so-called] -

    Hosea 1:4 LXX* - καὶ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς αὐτόν Κάλεσον τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ιεζραελ, διότι ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ἐκδικήσω τὸ αἷμα τοῦ Ιεζραελ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ιου καὶ καταπαύσω βασιλείαν οἴκου Ισραηλ·

    Hosea 1:5 LXX* - ἔσται ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ συντρίψω τὸ τόξον τοῦ Ισραηλ ἐν τῇ κοιλάδι τοῦ Ιεζραελ. --

    Hosea 1:6 LXX* - καὶ συνέλαβεν ἔτι καὶ ἔτεκεν θυγατέρα. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Κάλεσον τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς Οὐκ--ἠλεημένη, διότι οὐ μὴ προσθήσω ἔτι ἐλεῆσαι τὸν οἶκον τοῦ Ισραηλ, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ ἀντιτασσόμενος ἀντιτάξομαι αὐτοῖς.

    Hosea 1:7 LXX* - τοὺς δὲ υἱοὺς Ιουδα ἐλεήσω καὶ σώσω αὐτοὺς ἐν κυρίῳ θεῷ αὐτῶν καὶ οὐ σώσω αὐτοὺς ἐν τόξῳ οὐδὲ ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ οὐδὲ ἐν πολέμῳ οὐδὲ ἐν ἅρμασιν οὐδὲ ἐν ἵπποις οὐδὲ ἐν ἱππεῦσιν. --​

    How many JEHOVAH are in those verses [4,6,7]?

    JEHOVAH said, "... I ["JEHOVAH ... God", vs. 4,6] will save them by JEHOVAH their God [vs. 7], ..."
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  15. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    ביהוה translates as "Lord not Jehovah
     
  16. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    I was getting a little bored in "your" thread because you refuse to answer questions, so I thought I'd pop in over here...

    "Firstborn" means something, it's not used lightly in the scriptures, it has a very consistent usage that is worth noting.
    Using C. L. Brenton’s translation of the Septuagint, this should be a list of EVERY example of "Firstborn" followed by a group. It seems that WITHOUT EXCEPTION the "Firstborn" is PART of the group that follows.

    The aim here is to interpret the relationship of "Firstborn" to the group. Notice that the firstborn is (1) the first in time, and (2) part of the group that follows.

    LXX Genesis 4:4 And Abel also brought of the first born of his sheep and of his fatlings, and God looked upon Abel and his gifts,

    LXX Genesis 25:13 And these are the names of the sons of Ismael, according to the names of their generations. The firstborn of Ismael, Nabaioth, and Kedar, and Nabdeel, and Massam,

    LXX Genesis 35:23 The sons of Lea, the first-born of Jacob; Ruben, Symeon, Levi, Judas, Issachar, Zabulon.

    LXX Genesis 36:15 These are the chiefs of the son of Esau, even the sons of Eliphas, the first-born of Esau; chief Thaeman, chief Omar, chief Sophar, chief Kenez,

    LXX Genesis 38:7 And Er, the first-born of Judas, was wicked before the Lord; and God killed him.

    LXX Genesis 46:8 And these are the names of the sons of Israel that went into Egypt with their father Jacob- Jacob and his sons. The first-born of Jacob, Ruben.

    LXX Exodus 6:14 And these are the heads of the houses of their families: the sons of Ruben the first-born of Israel; Enoch and Phallus, Asron, and Charmi, this is the kindred of Ruben.

    LXX Exodus 11:5 And every first-born in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first-born of Pharao that sits on the throne, even to the first-born of the woman-servant that is by the mill, and to the first-born of all cattle.

    LXX Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass at midnight that the Lord smote all the first-born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharao that sat on the throne, to the first-born of the captive-maid in the dungeon, and the first-born of all cattle.

    LXX Exodus 13:13 Every offspring opening the womb of the ass thou shalt change for a sheep; and if thou wilt not change it, thou shalt redeem it: every first-born of man of thy sons shalt thou redeem.

    LXX Exodus 13:15 And when Pharao hardened his heart so as not to send us away, he slew every first-born in the land of Egypt, both the first-born of man and the first-born of beast; therefore do I sacrifice every offspring that opens the womb, the males to the Lord, and every first-born of my sons I will redeem.

    LXX Exodus 22:29 Thou shalt not keep back the first-fruits of thy threshing floor and press. The first-born of thy sons thou shalt give to me.

    LXX Exodus 34:19 The males are mine, everything that opens the womb; every first-born of oxen, and every first-born of sheep.

    LXX Exodus 34:20 And the first-born of an ass thou shalt redeem with a sheep, and if thou wilt not redeem it thou shalt pay a price: every first-born of thy sons shalt thou redeem: thou shalt not appear before me empty.

    LXX Numbers 1:20 And the sons of Ruben the first-born of Israel according to their kindreds, according to their divisions, according to the houses of their families, according to the number of their names, according to their heads, were- all males from twenty years old and upward, every one that went out with the host-

    LXX Numbers 3:40 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Count every first-born male of the children of Israel from a month old and upwards, and take the number by name.

    LXX Numbers 3:41 And thou shalt take the Levites for me- I am the Lord-- instead of all the first-born of the sons of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the first-born among the cattle of the children of Israel.

    LXX Numbers 3:45 Take the Levites instead of all the first-born of the sons of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle, and the Levites shall be mine; I am the Lord.

    LXX Numbers 3:46 And for the ransoms of the two hundred and seventy-three which exceed the Levites in number of the first-born of the sons of Israel;

    LXX Numbers 3:50 He took the silver from the first-born of the sons of Israel, a thousand three hundred and sixty-five shekels, according to the holy shekel.

    LXX Numbers 8:16 For these are given to me for a present out of the midst of the
    children of Israel: I have taken them to myself instead of all the first-born of the sons of Israel that open every womb.

    LXX Numbers 8:17 For every first-born among the children of Israel is mine, whether of man or beast: in the day in which I smote every first-born in the land of Egypt, I sanctified them to myself.

    LXX Numbers 18:15 And every thing that opens the womb of all flesh, whatsoever they bring to the Lord, whether man or beast, shall be thine: only the first-born of men shall be surely redeemed, and thou shalt redeem the first-born of unclean cattle.

    LXX Numbers 18:17 But thou shalt not redeem the first-born of calves and the first-born of sheep and the first-born of goats; they are holy: and thou shalt pour their blood upon the altar, and thou shalt offer the fat as a burnt-offering for a smell of sweet savour to the Lord.

    LXX Numbers 26:5 Ruben was the first-born of Israel: and the sons of ruben, Enoch, and the family of Enoch; to Phallu belongs the family of the Phalluites.

    LXX Deuteronomy 12:6 And ye shall carry thither your whole-burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, and your first-fruits, and your vowed-offerings, and your freewill-offerings, and your offerings of thanksgiving, the first-born of your herds, and of your flocks.

    LXX Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou shalt not be able to eat in thy cities the tithe of thy corn, and of thy wine, and of thine oil, the first-born of thine herd and of thy flock, and all your vows as many as ye shall have vowed, and your thank-offerings, and the first-fruits of thine hands.

    LXX Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat it in the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to have his name called there; ye shall bring the tithe of thy corn and of thy wine, and of thine oil, the first-born of thy herd and of thy flock, that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

    LXX Deuteronomy 15:19 Every first-born that shall be born among thy kine and thy sheep, thou shalt sanctify the males to the Lord thy God; thou shalt not work with thy first-born calf, and thou shalt not shear the first-born of thy sheep.

    LXX Deuteronomy 33:17 His beauty is as the firstling of his bull, his horns are the horns of a unicorn; with them he shall thrust the nations at once, even from the end of the earth: these are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and these are the thousands of Manasse.

    LXX Joshua 17:1 And the borders of the tribe of the children of Manasse, (for he was the first-born of Joseph) assigned to Machir the firstborn of Manasse the father of Galaad, for he was a warrior, were in the land of Galaad and of Basan.

    LXX 2 Samuel 3:2 (LXX, 2 Kings)And sons were born to David in Chebron: and his first-born was Ammon the son of Achinoom the Jezraelitess.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 1:29 And these are their generations: the first-born of Ismael, Nabaeoth, and Kedar, Nabdeel, Massam,

    LXX 1 Chronicles 2:3 The sons of Juda; Er, Aunan, Selom. These three were born to him of the daughter of Sava the Chananitish woman: and Er, the first-born of Juda, was wicked before the Lord, and he slew him.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 2:25 And the sons of Jerameel the first-born of Esron were, the first-born Ram, and Banaa, and Aram, and Asan his brother.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 2:27 And the sons of Ram the first-born of Jerameel were Maas, and Jamin, and Acor.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 2:42 And the sons of Chaleb the brother of Jerameel were, Marisa his first-born, he is the father of Ziph:-- and the sons of Marisa the father of Chebron.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 2:50 These were the sons of Chaleb: the sons of Or the first-born of Ephratha; Sobal the father of Cariathiarim,

    LXX 1 Chronicles 3:15 And the sons of Josia; the first-born Joanan, the second Joakim, the third Sedekias, the fourth Salum.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 4:4 And Phanuel the father of Gedor, and Jazer the father of Osan: these are the sons of Or, the first-born of Ephratha, the father of Baethalaen.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 5:1 And the sons of Ruben the first-born of Israel (for he was the first-born; but because of his going up to his father's couch, his father gave his blessing to his son Joseph, even the son Israel; and he was not reckoned as first-born;

    LXX 1 Chronicles 5:3 The sons of Ruben the first-born of Israel; Enoch, and Phallus, Asrom, and Charmi.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 6:28 The sons of Samuel; the first-born Sani, and Abia.

    LXX 1 Chronicles 8:30 And her first-born son was Abdon, and Sur, and Kis, and Baal, and Nadab, and Ner,

    LXX 1 Chronicles 9:36 And his first-born son was Abdon, and he had Sur, and Kis, and Baal, and Ner, and Nadab,

    LXX 1 Chronicles 26:6 And to Samaias his son were born the sons of his first-born, chiefs over the house of their father, for they were mighty.

    LXX Nehemiah 10:36 the first-born of our sons, and of our cattle, as it is written in the law, and the first-born of our herds and of our flocks, to bring to the house of our God, for the priests that minister in the house of our God.

    LXX Psalm 135:8 Who smote the first-born of Egypt, both man and beast.

    LXX Micah 6:7 Will the Lord accept thousands of rams, or ten thousands of fat goats? should I give my first-born for ungodliness, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

    Indeed, the word "firstborn" MEANS something. There is a lexical and biblical meaning of the word “ firstborn" that requires a comparison with something else, this is not a difficult concept at all. But a comparison with what? Simply stated, a comparison with others who come later in time. The very meaning of the Hebrew BaQaR (verbal form of "firstborn") is "to be born first." Therefore, LEXICALLY, the phrase "firstborn of" requires: (1) temporal priority over others in a given group and
    (2) that the firstborn is A MEMBER of the very group that he proceeds in time.

    Jehovah's Witnesses seek to avoid the kind of scholarship that alters basic lexical requirements that do not meet a preconceived concept of God. Therefore the "addition" of the word "other" is perfectly acceptable as it makes the statement flow.

    Also interesting to point out that Jesus, unlike Ephraim, Jacob and Israel, is never ANYWHERE said to be "given" the title of Firstborn, he is simply spoken of as the "firstborn" in the temporal sense in Col. 1:15, 18, Heb. 1:6, Rev. 1:5 and Romans 8:29. No theological back-flips required here at all on our part, it's a shame the same can't be said for those who claim some superior kind of Scholarship!

    If it is "the firstborn of" Israel(Ex. 6:14), it is one of the sons of Israel, if it is "the firstborn of" Pharoah(Ex. 11:5) it is a member of the house of Pharoah, if it is "the firstborn of" beasts(Ex. 13:15) then it is an animal also. Why then should this rule be changed as it applies to "the firstborn of" creation? Obviously Jesus is a created being, the Firstborn of all Creation.

    I look forward to reams and reams of sidestepping information in your rebuttal.

    Regards
     
  17. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    The7th... This post is 24 PAGES LONG!!! Why do you do this? You seem to hide behind reams of pre-prepared information, much of which doesn't relate to the points at hand. I think Heman is trying to engage with you in conversation, this isn't very convincing of your position.

    Gish Gallop - RationalWiki

    The Gish Gallop (also known as proof by verbosity[1]) is the fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort. The Gish Gallop is a belt-fed version of the on the spot fallacy, as it's unreasonable for anyone to have a well-composed answer immediately available to every argument present in the Gallop. The Gish Gallop is named after creationist Duane Gish, who often abused it.

    Can I ask, how old are you? It's a serious question, not a derogatory remark?
     
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    I am as old as my tongue, and a little bit older than my teeth.
     
  19. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    No, just throw it into google. - and since you like worldly scholars so much:

    "Word Parsed:

    בַיהוָה

    Parts of Speech: Proper Noun

    Root:

    בְּ + יהוה

    Strong's Number: H3068, H3069

    Infinitive Definition: Jehovah = "the existing One"

    1. the proper name of the one true God

    a. unpronounced except...​

    1. Jehovah - used primarily in the

    combination 'Lord Jehovah'

     
  20. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    This doesn’t change the lexical meaning of the word Firstborn.

    LOL agreed the word Firstborn carries with it all these thoughts that you speak of. But, the word Firstborn means the one to be born first. You are not denying the meaning of the word, by adding further connotations to it in a specific context. You don’t take this additional “meaning” on a merrygoround through the scriptures, this kind of reasoning could lead to all sorts of bizarre thoughts. I’ll think of some while I’m at work, but this is a really bad idea, all for the sake of doctrine pre-conceived!

    Do you think here that the word Firstborn now no longer means the one born first?

    Most of your argument follows the same vein as I’ve rebutted above. Again, to be “made” firstborn” isn’t changing the lexical meaning of the word. There’s a reason why the word is used in this context, and it’s because being a literal firstborn son carries with it certain responsibilities. But notice that it’s the extra responsibilities that are being highlighted in the verses above, not a new meaning to the word Firstborn. If you are Firstborn, then you have rights. These rights usually ONLY belong to the firstborn, so to transfer those rights is in effect the same as transferring the temporal priority of the son. The word is used to imply temporal priority, which shows that this is the true meaning of the word, one who is born first.

    You need to address the word in it’s lexical meaning rather than trying to change the meaning of the word entirely. All of these verses come within a context. We already have a Greek word for Pre-eminence.

    Wrong, each of these uses still imply temporal priority.

    No, he meant first born, not first created. This is the usual side stepping from Trinitarians on this issue. 1) the word protoktioti was not in common use at the time of writing. Interestingly, when it was in common use it was used by the early church to describe Christ. 2) to say the first created of all creatures is clumsy. The one born first is smoother IMO

    Car crash!

    Buckle up! Btw, eventually we go through the entire Bible verse by verse you saying at every verse “it’s better explained in this next verse”, standard.

    Lol we all know Christ is the head of the church, these verses clearly state that. The issue is why use a word like “Firstborn” with it’s clear and consistent implication of temporal priority and all the benefits that go with that? Could it not be that Jesus is literally the Firstborn, hence he is literally in possession of all of these privileges because of that firstborn status. You’ve got to admit, it’s sure simpler to read than ignoring the temporal priority of the word and only focusing on the received privileges of actual firstborns.

    I have another question: If Jesus isn’t God’s real Firstborn Son, then who is? Who was the first created being in the universe? Gabriel? Michael? Some other angel? Think about this question and don’t just brush it off. Do you think that such a position would be worth mentioning in the bible? It’s at least a very good question for a truth seeker to ask is it not? So what’s your answer?

    Regards
     
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