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Featured Non-Trinitarian The God or a god

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by he-man, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. Starcomet

    Starcomet Unitarian Sacramental Christian

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    This is why context is important for these ancient koine Greek text! Those instances where no article is used it is clear that the True God is being referred to or another "mighty" being. 1 Corinthians 4:4 uses THE THEOS to refer to the devil according to many interpretations, but that is clear from the context of the passage. The Word was not 'a certain god' and the authors intention was to make it clear that the Word was divine or godly. I still say the best way to interpret it to have it be "and the word was god,godly, or divine."

    Whether you then state this is referring to Jesus is beyond the scope of this topic. The question is should it be The God or a god and the best translation from my research is simply "and the Word was god/godly/divine."
     
  2. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    This response was in reply to a different argument it seems!
    If John had meant that Christ was "the same essence and nature as God the Father" he would have said that as well...
    Deal with the argument in front of you... There's a distinction by means of the definite article between the Theos's. No personal terms are used here [Father and Son]. This is the only time in scripture that we find such a distinction, so you think that's significant? Probably... You think we should ignore it and plough on with a "the Word was God" translation? Probably not!

    I'll take another look at your other comments above when I get home, but I think we might both be a bit pushed for time this week.
     
  3. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Matthew 24:4-5 Watch out!​
     
  4. twin.spin

    twin.spin Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

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    I have found that for the most part the non-Trinitarian who ask for proof of where the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity aren't interested in an answer. With that stated, this is how God choose to reveal himself as Triune.

    Example : Jesus' Baptism

    #1 The Father spoke from heaven.
    #2 The Son was in the water.
    #3 The Holy Spirit descended.

    Example 2: The identification of Jesus with the prophecy of Isaiah 42:1-4
    the Father speaks
    the Son is the chosen servant of the Lord
    the Holy Spirit abides in him

    Example 3:
    Jesus' Great Commission is the "sedes doctrinae" for the doctrine of the Trinity (Matthew 28:18-20) in the making of disciples:
    #1 Father
    #2 Son
    #3 Holy Spirit

    Example 4: Jesus' incarnation ~ "Emmanuel" Matthew 1:18-24 Luke 1:26-35

    Example 5: Colossians 2:9 ... closest single verse that teaches the Trinity
    "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"
    "Deity" or other translations "Godhead" was the 1st century coined word for our coined word "Trinity"

    Conclusion: The heresy attack against Jesus' claim of Divinity and God is 2000+ yrs.
    “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied,
    but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  5. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Isaiah 42:1 Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
    Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    Thou, being a man - That is, only a man - makest thyself God. When Christ said before, John 10:30, I and the Father are one, had the Jews understood him (as many so-called Christians profess to do) as only saying he had a unity of sentiments with the Father, they would not have attempted to treat him for this as a blasphemer; because in this sense Abraham, Isaac, Moses, David, and all the prophets, were one with God. But what irritated them so much was that they understood him as speaking of a unity of nature. Therefore they say here, thou makest thyself God; which word they understood, not in a figurative, metaphorical, or improper sense, but in the most literal meaning of the term. [CLARKE] “The fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Christ ‘bodily,’ as opposed to the Jewish tabernacle, or temple; truly and really, in opposition to types and figures; not only effectively, as God dwells in good men, but substantially or personally, by the strictest union, as the soul dwells in the body; so that God and man are one Christ.” See Parkhurst.
    The Great Commission Matthew 28:16-18 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: But the universe is put under him more particularly as Mediator, that he might redeem his people; that he might gather a church; that he might defend his chosen; that he might subdue all their enemies, and bring them off conquerors and more than conquerors, John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And that I do nothing of myself - That is, you shall have proof that God has sent me; that I am the Messiah; and that God concurs with me and approves my doctrine. This proof was furnished by the miracles that attended the death of Jesus - the earthquake and darkness; but chiefly by his resurrection from the dead, which proved, beyond a doubt, that he was what he affirmed he was - the Messiah.. Hebrews 2:8-9 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
     
  6. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    DW1980,

    The truth is that Jesus is fully Divine according to John 1:1, something that you seem to argue against. Jesus is a separate “God” from the God whom he is with [this is where you disagree]. Jesus is never said to be Almighty in the scriptures, something that would have been stated quite literally 10’s if not 100’s of times if it were true! Imagine trying to convince a strict monotheistic [literally Uni-Personal God] Jew that Christ was God literally, by using the texts so common to Trinitarians today, the Jew would have thought you were crazy!

    The context of the Christian scriptures is to show how Christ fulfilled the Law covenant. There’s so much I want to say here but it’s way off topic. Suffice to say, if Christ was Almighty God, then the Ransom given for the salvation of mankind to save us from our sins is null and void. A point Paul actually states quite clearly in his writings.

    I wonder why? Why doesn't anyone ask you this question. It's a question that you need to answer more than JW's do!

    So what is your answer... Is Jesus a false God according to John 17:3?

    I’ve answered this question already in the previous post. Origen states our exact position way back in the 3rd Century. So what’s your answer?

    Well, it means the word is unbiblical at least!

    The Bible is subject to language, it is not the source of language. Therefore, you will find a heck of a lot more words outside the Bible than you'll find within it. But this is really a dodge of a quite important point; I can do without words like Governing Body, Publisher and Disfellowshipping to explain to a non-believer the God whom I believe in. A God who, by the way, they NEED to find and begin a relationship with in order to find salvation. I can introduce a biblically worded version of the True God to them so that they can gain life. I do not have to borrow words from an apostate era to explain God. This is just a fact. Your comparing Apples to Oranges here, it’s a very weak counter-argument.

    You also miss the logic here… If you don’t need the Trinity language to explain the Trinity, then why do you use Trinity language today, to explain the Trinity?

    It's funny, although the Bible never directly says that Michael is Jesus or vice versa, it can be arrived at using the exact same style of exegesis as some Trinity teachings.

    Better… "who in the Form of God"...

    A few points;

    Colossians 1:19 God was pleased to have all fulness to dwell in him

    Colossians 2:9 …in him that all the fulness of the divine quality dwells bodily

    We agree that Christ was in the form of God, but what does that mean? We agree that Christ is in some sense God, but what does that mean? Scripture says that God was "pleased to have" divinity dwell in Christ, but what does that mean? A proper study of God’s word suggests that Christ’s divinity came BY PERMISSION of God the Father. It is the Father who “was pleased” to have Christ become a divine being. Notice I’m not using any additional language here to explain the relationship of God and his Firstborn Son?

    You should take your study to this level as well. For example, You believe in the Trinity, but what does that mean? The point is ALWAYS::::: What does that mean??? That’s the point of Bible Study. Don’t stop when you’ve found evidence for your comfortable conclusions already, keep going, find out what they and Tertulian meant by a trinity (that’s right, small “T”). It’s fascinating research if you can free yourself from this yoke of theology you’ve somehow been convinced to carry.

    A different translation…

    De Carne Christi 14. “For He had to announce to the world the mighty purpose of the Father, even that which ordained the restoration of man. But He is not on this account to be regarded as an angel, as a Gabriel or a Michael”

    There certainly is an abundance of writings on this. And just for the record; JW’s also believe that Jesus is more than an Angel, he's God's only Begotton Son, in fact Origen explains our position on that point yet again.

    Origen: Commentary on John, Book 2 (Roberts-Donaldson)

    Origen - 2. IN WHAT WAY THE LOGOS IS GOD. ERRORS TO BE AVOIDED ON THIS QUESTION.

    …The true God, then, is "The God, [He says the Father]" and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the Word of God

    There is also an abundance of early Jewish writings talking about Angels being gods. These are poems and songs I believe from the dead sea found with the scriptural rolls if I remember correctly, I’ll dig um out. But the point is; it was the custom to refer to these ones as gods, no doubt. So to refer to the Word as theos is not surprising in the slightest, and the early Jewish Christians would have taken this as a reference to Angels. What is surprising, is your conclusion that this makes Jesus the same as Jehovah! This is simply not true, it's out of the blue, out of context, out of sync with the language of the day.

    CHAPTER 9 -- THE CATHOLIC RULE OF FAITH EXPOUNDED IN SOME OF ITS POINTS. ESPECIALLY IN THE UNCONFUSED DISTINCTION OF THE SEVERAL PERSONS OF THE BLESSED TRINITY.

    …For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole,x as He Himself acknowledges: "My Father is greater than I."…

    Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)

    This isn’t your Trinity, but I will accept that Tertullian is on the right road to becoming Trinitarian. My argument has always been that the Trinity developed over time in the early church, a fact that is demonstrated by Tertullian himself.

    Think about what "trinity" Tertulian is pushing here; One that has the Father as "the entire substance", and the son as a part of the Father! This means that the True God is a member of the trinity, and not the trinity itself. Take a little time to think this through.

    The issue was how was Jesus created. I pointed this out in my last post to you. This was an issue that needn’t have bothered them, but it did, and it lead to all sorts of philosophy. IMO directly to the Trinity, philosophy of this kind was warned against in the scriptures at Colossians 2:8. I make a point at the end of this post regarding fights and schisms, it might have a bearing on this point as well.

    Yes, that’s what I thought you meant. I guess this highlights the different ways that we’re reading the same words…

    In the portion of text above it says “as regards power, therefore, God is one” So in a certain respect, God is one… That certain respect is "power".

    Then it says “as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation”, so whatever you make of this, it’s talking about something other than the first clause which was “in regard to” power.

    Trinitarian goggles I think!

    Hyppolytus straightens out your thinking in the same piece of writing…

    For it is right, in the first place, to expound the truth that the Father is one God, “of whom is every family,”1615 “by whom are all things, of whom are all things, and we in Him.”1616

    The whole piece in context is a fascinating read actually. Hyppolytus is answering Modalists in the early Church, the precursors to modern Trinitarians… He goes on to say…

    2. Now they seek to exhibit the foundation for their dogma by citing the word in the law, “I am the God of your fathers: ye shall have no other gods beside me;” and again in another passage, “I am the first,” He saith, “and the last; and beside me there is none other.” Thus they say they prove that God is one. And then they answer in this manner: “If therefore I acknowledge Christ to be God, He is the Father Himself, if He is indeed God;

    So the above underlined comment is not what he believes, but is what he is arguing against. He goes on to lay out a basic JW position on Christs relationship with the Father [Apart from the “Almighty” comment… I thought you’d like that!]

    6. Let us look next at the apostle’s word: “Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.”1630 This word declares the mystery of the truth rightly and clearly. He who is over all is God; for thus He speaks boldly, “All things are delivered unto me of my Father.”1631 He who is over all, God blessed, has been born; and having been made man, He is (yet) God for ever. For to this effect John also has said, “Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”1632 And well has he named Christ the Almighty. For in this he has said only what Christ testifies of Himself. For Christ gave this testimony, and said, “All things are delivered unto me of my Father;”1633 and Christ rules all things, and has been appointed Almighty by the Father. And in like manner Paul also, in setting forth the truth that all things are delivered unto Him, said, “Christ the first-fruits; afterwards they that are Christ’s at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule, and all authority, and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For all things are put under Him. But when He saith, All things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. Then shall He also Himself be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”1635 If, therefore, all things are put under Him with the exception of Him who put them under Him, He is Lord of all, and the Father is Lord of Him, that in all there might be manifested one God, to whom all things are made subject together with Christ, to whom the Father hath made all things subject, with the exception of Himself. And this, indeed, is said by Christ Himself, as when in the Gospel He confessed Him to be His Father and His God. For He speaks thus: “I go to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.

    It's in this context that he makes the comment you posted. So read in context it really says that his version of the trinity is really nothing more than a triad or triple type inclusion of the Son and HS into an unequal union. This is not your Trinity. In his trinity Christ/The Word is subject to God the father. It does show the beginnings of it though. This is strong Trinitarian language that will no doubt be cited in 100 years or so at the battle, opps, the council of Nicea.

    It most definitely does not. But at least you’ve finally realized and stated a difference between saying “Jesus is God” and “the way you understand [that Jesus is God]”…

    Origen believes that the Father alone is fully God and that the Word is God by permission of the Father [a JW position by the way]

    2. IN WHAT WAY THE LOGOS IS GOD. ERRORS TO BE AVOIDED ON THIS QUESTION.

    We next notice John's use of the article in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Logos, but to the name of God he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of God refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Logos is named God.

    Interesting indeed. So you think this says that Jesus is also “the uncreated cause of all things”??? Is this Origen literally saying that the Word is NOT uncreated?

    Does the same difference which we observe between God with the article and God without it prevail also between the Logos with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the God who is over all is God with the article not without it, so "the Logos" is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence The Logos. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two Gods, and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked.

    Like the Trinity Doctrine?

    Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be God all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other.…

    Well this is interesting… Denying that “the Son has a distinct nature of his own” is exactly what modern Trinitarians do! Also, modern Trinitarians, in the exact sense that Origen means it, “deny the divinity of the Son”, because you deny that his divinity is from the Father. You assert that the Son is divine by his own cause, he’s simply Very God in your eyes!

    Either way here Origen has just nuked modern day Trinitarian theology with a few strokes of the pen!

    To such persons we have to say that God on the one hand is Very God (Autotheos, God of Himself); and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, "That they may know Thee the only true God; "but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply God (with the article), but rather God (without article).

    The Father is the ONLY True God. Jesus is “beyond the Very God [and therefore] made God by participation in his divinity”. Are you saying this is what you believe?

    And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty.

    So you believe that the Son is the First-Born of all [partitive genitive] Creation, and was the FIRST TO BE WITH GOD!!?! Origen here shows how they understood Colossian 1:15,16 by stating here that the Word was the FIRST TO BE WITH GOD. Origen believes the Word was created. He also believes that the "other gods" were created by the "offices" of the the Word. This is also a JW position.

    The true God, then, is "The God," and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the Word of God, who was in the beginning, and who by being with God is at all times God, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be God, if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.

    The Father is the prototype God, and all others are images of his divinity… It really is as if JW’s wrote this.

    If you remove the Trinitarian goggles, it’s the same for ALL the early church Fathers. None of them espoused modern Trinitarian belief, not a single one! You need to read them in the context that they themselves provide, AND the context that surrounded them.

    FIGHTS AND SCHISMS

    I’d like to ask; Where were the fights and schisms in the first century regarding this new theology of Trinitarian belief [a Tri-Personal God]? You must surely accept that the Jews weren’t Trinitarians, they held a uni-personal understanding of the Sheema in Deut. 6:4, they still hold the same thing to this day. You notice how we, and millions of others, have spilled much ink talking about the issue of the Trinity doctrine? There’s a big reason for this; it’s considered by many to be un-scriptural and simply not what the Apostles taught and a blasphemy against God. So understand, in order to convince me that such a teaching existed in the First-Century, you would have to show me the controversy surrounding this new teaching...
    it would look a little like the bomb that went off in the 4th century I guess!
    So where is the controversy in the 1st Century? Where’s the “Arius” of the 1st Century? Where’s the refutation of a uni-personal God in conversation with early Jew’s coming into the new organisation?

    These are serious questions that you have to grapple with. Don't think for one minute that God wouldn't let the majority of Christians be deceived, he allowed it before with the Jews. What about the Truth of the Bible where it states, in effect, that most Christians will follow the wrong road? Matthew 7:13,14. Most people are indeed following a paganized version of Christianity.

    Well our Jesus is almost exactly the same as Origen’s Jesus so that’s not true for a start. Our Jesus is the Messiah. This is a Jewish understanding of the Messiah. They are not waiting for “God”, nor were we in the 1st Century. We didn’t get “The God” either, we got the Word made flesh, the first-born of all creation. It was a massive privilege to get the First-born son of God acting as the messiah, and that just goes to show his love for mankind.

    This brings me to another question; If Jesus wasn’t the literal First-Born son of God, then who was? Do you think God’s first ever intelligent creation would be worth a mention in the scriptures? I do! Considering the importance attached to First-Born sons in the Hebrew scriptures. That’s why I’m very confident it was Jesus Christ who fitted that bill. But anyway, an answer as to who you think was God’s first ever created being would be interesting I think.

    Also, you say that the bible is consistent with Trinitarian belief. This is a very telling statement to make. You see, there are many things that can be "consistent" with the bible, in the sense that the bible doesn’t actually deny the possibility that the belief might be true. It’s like starting the “Moses had Blue Hair Cult”, the bible doesn’t deny this, so it must be true right?


    Regards
     
  7. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Luke 22:39-42 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.
     
  8. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

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    I agree, Jesus was and is subordinate to the Father.
     
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Hello 'Heman', would you mind if I ask you some questions, and we can look at a few things in scripture [KJB] to better answer your question?

    What do you make of these texts and others which speak of JEHOVAH Jesus [H3444 H3068]?

    Genesis 49:18 HOT - לישׁועתך קויתי יהוה׃

    Genesis 49:18 HOT Translit. - liyshûät'khä qiûiytiy y'hwäh

    Exodus 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃

    Exodus 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm

    The "et" or "את" is the Alpeh Tau, the Alpha Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letter, the Author and Finisher.
    2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT - לא לכם להלחם בזאת התיצבו עמדו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה עמכם יהודה וירושׁלם אל־תיראו ואל־תחתו מחר צאו לפניהם ויהוה עמכם׃

    2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT Translit. - lo läkhem l'hiLächëm Bäzot hit'yaTZ'vû im'dû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh iMäkhem y'hûdäh wiyrûshälaim al-Tiyr'û w'al-TëchaTû mächär tz'û lif'nëyhem wayhwäh iMäkhem

    Jonah 2:9 (2:10) HOT - ואני בקול תודה אזבחה־לך אשׁר נדרתי אשׁלמה ישׁועתה ליהוה׃

    Jonah 2:9 HOT Translit. - waániy B'qôl Tôdäh ez'B'chäh-Läkh' ásher nädar'Tiy áshaLëmäh y'shûätäh layhwäh š

    Psalms 119:174 HOT - תאבתי לישׁועתך יהוה ותורתך שׁעשׁעי׃

    Psalms 119:174 HOT Translit. - Täav'Tiy liyshûät'khä y'hwäh w'tôrät'khä shaáshuäy
    What then do you think of the following?

    Scripture [KJB] from Genesis 1:1 :

    Genesis 1:1 reads in Hebrew - בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃

    Genesis 2:4 reads in Hebrew - אלה תולדות השׁמים והארץ בהבראם ביום עשׂות יהוה אלהים ארץ ושׁמים׃​

    The word Elohiym in Genesis 1:1 HOT, is not a mere 'dual plural', but an Hebrew True plural, 3 [or greater]. In the center of Genesis 1:1 is two letters, untranslated into the English, the Aleph, Tau, the Alpha and Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letters of the Hebrew Alphabet, the Author and Finisher of the word of Faith. John knew this, in John 1:1-3, etc and in 1 John 1:1-3 KJB. The second underlined set, is the Vau, Aleph, Tau, the "sign" which is suspended between Heaven [השׁמים] and Earth [הארץ׃], connecting the two, the bridge, the Ladder of Jacob.

    In Genesis 2:4 KJB we read of JEHOVAH [YHVH], this was the name given to Moses. in the pictogram Hebrew, means something along the lines of "Behold" "the nail", "Behold" "the hand", and can also depict two [persons] in covenant agreement through sacrifice [arm and knife/nail]. Anyone may google this.

    John 20:27 KJB - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.​

    JEHOVAH Jesus, the person of the Son of the Father, the very "my fellow" of the Father.

    John 5:39 KJB - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify about me.

    Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​
     
  10. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Another question, if you will please concerning the following texts which speak of the JEHOVAH Immanuel [H3068 H5973 H430], who is this?:

    Psalms 46:7 (46:8) HOT - יהוה צבאות עמנו משׂגב־לנו אלהי יעקב סלה׃

    Psalms 46:7 HOT Translit. - y'hwäh tz'väôt iMänû mis'Gäv-länû élohëy yaáqov šeläh

    Psalms 46:11 (46:12) HOT - יהוה צבאות עמנו משׂגב־לנו אלהי יעקב סלה׃

    Psalms 46:11 HOT Translit. - y'hwäh tz'väôt iMänû mis'Gäv-länû élohëy yaáqov šeläh​

    Those spoke of JEHOVAH Immanuel, as do these:

    Isaiah 7:14 KJB - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Isaiah 8:8 KJB - And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

    Isaiah 8:10 KJB - Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.

    Matthew 1:23 KJB - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.​

    Which seems to be known by Paul, who cited Psalms 45 and 102:

    Hebrews 1:8 KJB - But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Hebrews 1:9 KJB - Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    [the following "And" means that the Father is still speaking to the Son, and Paul quotes another verse:]
    Hebrews 1:10 KJB - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    Hebrews 1:11 KJB - They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

    Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    Thus Paul says that the Father [JEHOVAH Ancient of Days] was speaking to the Son [JEHOVAH Jesus, JEHOVAH Immanuel], in Psalms 102 -

    Psalms 102:16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

    ... [Psalms 102:16 (102:17) HOT - כי־בנה יהוה ציון נראה בכבודו׃]

    ... [Psalms 102:16 HOT Translit. - Kiy-vänäh y'hwäh tziYôn nir'äh Bikh'vôdô]
    Psalms 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

    Psalms 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

    Psalms 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
    We can see that Paul taught this from Hebrews 13:

    Hebrews 13:5 KJB - Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

    [the "I AM" with thee, the JEHOVAH Immanuel, the God with us - Genesis 28:15; Deuteronomy 31:6,8; Joshus 1:5; 1 Samuel 12:22; 1 Chronicles 28:20; Psalms 37:28; Isaiah 41:10,17; Matthew 28:20; Acts 18:10 KJB]
    Hebrews 13:6 KJB - So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

    [JEHOVAH Jesus our "helper" - Exodus 18:4; Psalms 40;17; Isaiah 41:10,14 KJB, etc

    Matthew 15:25 KJB - Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.]
    Hebrews 13:7 KJB - Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

    Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.​
     
  11. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Another question, concerning another passage, this time Psalms 24, and the JEHOVAH who descended and then ascended from earth, who is the JEHOVAH King of Glory that descended and then ascended?

    Psalms 24:1 KJB - A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

    Psalms 24:2 KJB - For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

    Psalms 24:3 KJB - Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

    Psalms 24:4 KJB - He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

    Psalms 24:5 KJB - He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

    Psalms 24:6 KJB - This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

    Psalms 24:7 KJB - Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    Psalms 24:8 KJB - Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

    [Psalms 24:8 HOT - מי זה מלך הכבוד יהוה עזוז וגבור יהוה גבור מלחמה׃

    Psalms 24:8 HOT Translit. - miy zeh melekh' haKävôd y'hwäh iZûz w'giBôr y'hwäh GiBôr mil'chämäh]
    Psalms 24:9 KJB - Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    Psalms 24:10 KJB - Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    [Psalms 24:10 HOT - מי הוא זה מלך הכבוד יהוה צבאות הוא מלך הכבוד סלה׃

    Psalms 24:10 HOT Translit. - miy hû zeh melekh' haKävôd y'hwäh tz'väôt hû melekh' haKävôd šeläh]

    Doesn't Paul explain this in the NT?

    Ephesians 4:7 KJB - But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    Ephesians 4:8 KJB - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    Ephesians 4:9 KJB - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Ephesians 4:10 KJB - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    Isn't Paul quoting the OT Psalms 68 also?

    Psalms 68:14 KJB - When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.

    Psalms 68:15 KJB - The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan.

    Psalms 68:16 KJB - Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.

    [Psalms 68:16 (68:17) HOT - למה תרצדון הרים גבננים ההר חמד אלהים לשׁבתו אף־יהוה ישׁכן לנצח׃

    Psalms 68:16 HOT Tanslit. - läMäh T'raTZ'dûn häriym Gav'nuNiym hähär chämad élohiym l'shiv'Tô af-y'hwäh yish'Kon länetzach]
    Psalms 68:17 KJB - The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

    Psalms 68:18 KJB - Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.


    [Psalms 68:18 (68:19) HOT - עלית למרום שׁבית שׁבי לקחת מתנות באדם ואף סוררים לשׁכן יה אלהים׃

    Psalms 68:18 (68:19) HOT Translit. - äliytä laMärôm shäviytä SHeviy läqach'Tä maTänôt Bäädäm w'af šôr'riym lish'Kon yäH élohiym]
    Psalms 68:19 KJB - Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

    Psalms 68:20 KJB - He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
    Jesus said, "Our Father which art in Heaven ..." [Luke 11:2 KJB, etc.], who then was this JEHOVAH that came down, descended and later ascended? Paul indicates that it was JEHOVAH Jesus/Immanuel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Another question, concerning an OT text, Genesis 19:24 KJB:

    Genesis 19:24 KJB - Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    Genesis 19:24 HOT - ויהוה המטיר על־סדם ועל־עמרה גפרית ואשׁ מאת יהוה מן־השׁמים׃

    Genesis 19:24 HOT Translit. - wayhwäh him'†iyr al-š'dom w'al-ámoräh Gäf'riyt wäësh mëët y'hwäh min-haSHämäyim

    In this single verse, how many JEHOVAH are there? I see openly at least Two distinct JEHOVAH [one standing on the earth and calling down fire and brimstone from another who is in Heaven], and a hidden third distinct behind a symbol, for the LORD God, yes even the Holy Ghost is a consuming fire, thus the city suffered the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of the Eternal Fire [Deuteronomy 4:24; Hebrews 12:29; Jude 1:7 KJB].

    Who was that JEHOVAH the descends and ascends in Psalms 24 and Ephesians 4 and Psalms 68?

    Genesis 17:1 KJB - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

    Genesis 17:22 KJB - And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

    Genesis 18:1 KJB - And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

    Genesis 18:13 KJB - And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

    Genesis 18:14 KJB - Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

    Genesis 18:17 KJB - And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

    Genesis 18:20 KJB - And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

    Genesis 18:21 KJB - I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

    Genesis 18:22 KJB - And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

    Genesis 18:23 KJB - And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

    Genesis 18:25 KJB - That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

    Genesis 18:26 KJB - And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

    Genesis 18:33 KJB - And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

    Genesis 19:1 KJB - And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

    Genesis 19:13 KJB - For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

    Genesis 19:14 KJB - And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

    Genesis 19:27 KJB - And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:

    Genesis 19:29 KJB - And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
    Thus again, notice that One JEHOVAH [Jesus/Immanuel, the God with us] is standing on the earth with the two covering angels [cherubim], and calls Fire [JEHOVAH; Holy Ghost] down from the Another JEHOVAH [The Father which art in Heaven] in Heaven:

    Genesis 19:24 KJB - Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
    Sounds like:

    2 Timothy 1:18 KJB - The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.​
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  13. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said that He, Himself was "the Truth", correct? Truth is eternal, uncreated.

    Jeremiah 10:10 KJB - But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

    Jeremiah 42:5 KJB - Then they said to Jeremiah, The LORD be a true and faithful witness between us, if we do not even according to all things for the which the LORD thy God shall send thee to us.

    Compare:

    Revelation 1:17 KJB - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

    Revelation 1:18 KJB - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

    Revelation 3:14 KJB - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;​

    John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Romans 3:4 KJB - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.​

    Let God be true ...” [Romans 3:4 KJB], and Jesus said of Himself, “I Am ... the Truth ...” [John 14:6 KJB]. In Jeremiah 42:5 KJB, it is “...The LORD [JEHOVAH] ...” who is the “... True and Faithful Witness ...”, and yet in Revelation 3:14 KJB, Jesus, is the “... Amen, the Faithful and True Witness ...”

    No created being could ever say of themselves, “I Am the truth.” without it being blasphemy, and/or a claim to be eternal LORD God, since Truth, is, of itself, Eternal and Uncreated.

    Another question, who is the separator of the Sheep and Goats, and who seeks the Lost Sheep?

    Ezekiel 34:15 KJB - I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

    Ezekiel 34:16 KJB - I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

    Ezekiel 34:17 KJB - And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

    Matthew 25:31 KJB - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    Matthew 25:32 KJB - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    Matthew 25:33 KJB - And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    Luke 19:10 KJB - For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
    Who is the Good Shepherd, that came down and gave His life for the Sheep of His pasture? Who saw the people scattered having no shepherd? And began to teach them and feed them?
     
  14. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Another question on the Good Shepherd, since the Father is the Husbandman, isn't Jesus then the JEHOVAH over His sheep?

    John 15:1 KJB - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.​

    The Good Shepherd?

    Psalms 95:7 KJB - For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

    1 Kings 22:17 KJB - And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.

    2 Chronicles 18:16 KJB - Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.

    Psalms 23:1 KJB - A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.​

    God's people, “the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand ...”

    Psalms 80:1 KJB - To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

    Isaiah 40:11 KJB - He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.​

    Compare:

    Matthew 19:14 KJB - But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

    Mark 10:14 KJB - But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

    Luke 18:16 KJB - But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

    John 21:15 KJB - So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

    John 21:16 KJB - He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

    John 21:17 KJB - He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

    Isaiah 44:28 KJB - That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

    Ezekiel 34:11 KJB - For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

    Ezekiel 34:12 KJB - As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

    Mark 6:34 KJB - And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.​

    Those heard the voice of the Good Shepherd:

    John 10:2 KJB - But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

    John 10:11 KJB - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    John 10:14 KJB - I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.​

    The great I AM, Jesus, is the Good Shepherd, who knows His, and are known of His:

    Isaiah 56:8 KJB - The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    John 10:16 KJB - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

    Which “good shepherd” gave “His life for the sheep”? To whom does the “little flock” belong then, and whose “voice” “shall” “they” “hear”? It is the very voice of Jesus, calling them, “...follow me.”

    Psalms 95:6 KJB - O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

    Psalms 95:7 KJB - For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,​

    Who saw us like “... sheep without a shepherd ...” [1 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 18:16; Mark 6:34 KJB] and came to “... to seek and to save that which was lost ...” [Luke 19:10 KJB]?

    Scripture hath said,

    Jeremiah 31:3 KJB - The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.​

    Who is it that even had “... appeared of old ...”, and has loved us “... with an everlasting love ...”? Who is it that with “... lovingkindness ...” has “... drawn thee ...”? It is Jesus Christ:

    Isaiah 45:22 KJB - Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    John 12:32 KJB - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

    Think about what is going to the “... uttermost parts of the earth ...” and “... all the ends of the earth ...” even now:

    Matthew 26:31 KJB - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

    Mark 14:27 KJB - And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

    Hebrews 13:20 KJB - Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

    1 Peter 2:25 KJB - For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    1 Peter 5:4 KJB - And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

    John 10:15 KJB - As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.​

    Who is it that is coming to gather all of His Sheep from the four corners of the earth, from the four winds of heaven and shall separate the sheep from the goats?

    Matthew 24:31 KJB - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matthew 25:32 KJB - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    Matthew 25:33 KJB - And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    Mark 13:27 KJB - And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

    We are the sheep of His pasture... and we know His voice... for the Shepherd calls us. He calls those of His sheep to “... come out of her, my people ...”. Do we belong to Him or to another?

    Acts 17:27 KJB - That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:​

    Compare:

    Matthew 28:20 KJB - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Isaiah 42:5 KJB - Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:​

    Compare:

    John 20:22 KJB - And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    John 10:27 KJB - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:​

    Compare:

    See again Psalms 95 KJB, for whose voice to follow:

    ... Follow me ...”: Matthew 9:9, 16:24, 19:21; Mark 2:14 KJB,

    ... his disciples follow him ...”: Mark 6:1, 8:34, 10:21, Luke 5:27, 9:23,59, 18:22; John 1:43, 10:27, 12:26, 13:36, 21:19 KJB,

    ... follow thou me ...”: John 21:22 KJB,

    ... follow the Lamb ...”: Revelation 14:4 KJB​

    John 10:3 KJB - To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    John 10:4 KJB - And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.​

    Compare:

    Deuteronomy 1:30 KJB - The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes;

    Deuteronomy 1:33 Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day.

    Matthew 28:7 KJB - And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

    Mark 16:7 KJB - But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

    John 18:37 KJB - Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.​

    Jesus is no hireling, but He is the Good and Great Shepherd of the Sheep:

    Do we not desire to know the Truth [whom is Jesus], and to heed the voice [Psalms 95:7; Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7, etc KJB] and call of the LORD [JEHOVAH] God? We ought to know from these texts then, that it is Jesus Christ that calleth us. Do we hear Him, do we follow Him? For He is the Way, The Truth and the Life, that Good Shepherd:

    Psalms 23:1 KJB - A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

    Psalms 23:2 KJB - He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

    John 10:3 KJB - To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.​
     
  15. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
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    Continuing, perhaps you can tell me who is the JEHOVAH who sends us?

    Genesis 26:24 KJB - And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

    Genesis 28:15 KJB - And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

    Genesis 31:3 KJB - And the LORD said unto Jacob, Return unto the land of thy fathers, and to thy kindred; and I will be with thee.

    Genesis 46:4 KJB - I will go down with thee into Egypt; and I will also surely bring thee up again: and Joseph shall put his hand upon thine eyes.

    Exodus 3:12 KJB - And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.​

    Compare, “... I have sent thee ...”:

    Matthew 10:16 KJB - Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    Matthew 23:34 KJB - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    Luke 10:3 KJB - Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

    John 20:21 KJB - Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

    Philippians 2:19 KJB - But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

    Deuteronomy 31:6 KJB - Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    Joshua 1:5 KJB - There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    1 Kings 8:57 KJB - The LORD our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us:

    1 Chronicles 28:20 KJB - And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.​

    The New Testament usage of this:

    Matthew 28:20 KJB - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Acts 18:10 KJB - For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.​

    The very context that the Apostle Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, quotes from the OT and to whom he directly equates it with:

    Hebrews 13:5 KJB - Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

    Hebrews 13:6 KJB - So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.​

    Compare:

    Psalms 30:10 KJB - Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.

    Psalms 54:4 KJB - Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.

    Matthew 15:25 KJB - Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
    Hebrews 13:7 KJB - Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

    Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.​

    Side note, Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself [Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB] equates Jesus Christ as the JEHOVAH God, the Son, who changes not, the same, even the same yesterday, to day and for ever, the very Helper and Comforter.

    Hebrews 1:10 KJB - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    Hebrews 1:11 KJB - They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

    Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

    Side note:

    The “And ...” [Hebrews 1:10 KJB] continues the expression of “But unto the Son he saith ...” [Hebrews 1:8 KJB], which means that Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself [Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], is still citing the Old Testament passages, specifically those of David, in reference to the Father speaking to and about His Son, Jesus Christ:​

    Compare:

    Psalms 102:12 KJB - But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.​

    Side note, “... O LORD ...” [Psalms 102:12 KJB] is direct reference to JEHOVAH the Son, see Psalms 102:1,12,15,16,19,21,22 KJB:

    Psalms 102:12 (102:13) HOT [read from Right to Left] -ואתה יהוה לעולם תשׁב וזכרך לדר ודר׃​

    Side note, in the so-called LXX [*so-called Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100], notice how it translates the Hebrew JEHOVAH into the Greek “κύριε”, “kurie” or English “LORD”, which is used to identify Jesus Christ throughout the New Testament.

    Psalms 102:12 (101:13) LXX* - σὺ δέ, κύριε, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα μένεις, καὶ τὸ μνημόσυνόν σου εἰς γενεὰν καὶ γενεάν.​

    Consider carefully the importance of these texts, in what they are teaching, in that no one can say that Jesus is JEHOVAH [the Son], the “Lord”, but by the Holy Ghost, for a person of the 'Watch Tower', or 'Arian', or 'Unitarian', etc., may say that 'Jesus is lord', but they will not acknowledge Him as the LORD, JEHOVAH [the Son] – Deity – Eternal, I AM, Almighty God, etc, and nor do they keep the Ten Commandments [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; 1 John 2:4, 3:4 KJB] and therefore they need to read John 8:24,58; Acts 5:32 KJB very seriously and prayerfully:​

    1 Corinthians 12:3 KJB - Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    1 Corinthians 12:3 GNT - διὸ γνωρίζω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἐν Πνεύματι Θεοῦ λαλῶν λέγει ἀνάθεμα ᾿Ιησοῦν, καὶ οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν Κύριον ᾿Ιησοῦν εἰ μὴ ἐν Πνεύματι ἁγίῳ.​

    Philippians 2:11 KJB - And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Philippians 2:11 GNT - καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι Κύριος ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν Θεοῦ πατρός.​

    Even as it is written:

    Isaiah 45:21 KJB - Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Isaiah 45:22 KJB - Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    Isaiah 45:23 KJB - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Jeremiah 31:3 KJB - The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

    John 12:32 KJB - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Psalms 102:24 KJB - I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

    Psalms 102:25 KJB - Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

    Psalms 102:26 KJB - They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

    Psalms 102:27 KJB - But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.​

    Compare:

    Malachi 3:6 KJB - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Romans 10:13 KJB -For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

    Side note: see also Genesis 4:26, 12:8, 26:25; Psalms 116:4,13,17; Zephaniah 3:9 KJB

    Acts 19:5 KJB - When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 1:2 KJB - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:​

    Paul, directly citing the Old Testament, in the context of the words JEHOVAH God, “... I am with thee ...”, are spoken by “... Jesus Christ the same ...”
     
  16. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    A question about the Alpha and Omega, as seen from Genesis 1:1, the Aleph Tau, who is this?:

    The Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the Ending, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Author and Finisher

    Isaiah 41:4 KJB - Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

    Isaiah 44:6 KJB - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isaiah 48:12 KJB - Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.​

    The “... First and the Last ...” is JEHOVAH - the LORD:

    Revelation 1:17 KJB - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:​

    Compare:

    ... Fear not ...” - Genesis 15:1, 21:17, 26:24, 46:3; Joshua 8:1; Isaiah 41:13... etc ... Matthew 14:27, 17:7, 28:10; Luke 8:50, 12:7, etc. KJB​

    Revelation 1:18 KJB - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Revelation 2:8 KJB - And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;​

    “... Alpha and Omega, the first and the last ...”, even Jesus Christ:

    Revelation 1:11 KJB - Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.​

    See Context:

    Revelation 1:12 KJB - And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

    Revelation 1:13 KJB - And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.​

    Side Note:

    The NWT [the Watch Tower's, or Jehovah's Witness, New World Translation], because it follows the corrupt Alexandrian Greek texts, like Codex Aleph [Sinaiticus], B [Vaticanus] and A [Alexandrinus], etc, it leaves out the phrase as found in the preserved [Psalms 12:6-7 KJB] and unbreakable [John 10:35 KJB] word of God, the King James Bible, “... I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, ...”. However, it may be shown from the scripture itself that the phrase belongs, and was there from the beginning, because of the way the book of Revelation, yea the whole of the Bible [KJB], is written:

    Revelation 1:8,11

    “... Alpha and Omega ...”

    Revelation 21:6, 22:13

    “... Alpha and Omega ...”
    Revelation 1:8

    “... the beginning and the ending ...”

    Revelation 21:6, 22:13

    “... the beginning and the end ...”

    For a more complete table is seen ask for “Michael the archangel [X6] - Appendix 6 – Daniel & the Revelation compared, 7 Branch Candlestick"



    Side note for the WTS:

    If any [like the Jehovah's Witnesses] choose not to be associated with such T or t symbol as the Cross, then this is their choice, but they should know that by simply assaulting this symbol [the Cross], they have left untouched many others which exist in the Watch Tower and Tract Society materials [Divine Plan of the Ages, New Creation, etc] and buildings, like the Winged Sun-disk of Thebes, Pyramids, the W-Fingered Hand, Keys, etc. More than this, the very “pole” itself is also seen within paganism, and “phallic”, under the May-pole, the Stella, Needle, Pyramid, Spike, Yule-Log, Obelisk and so on. Perhaps they have a “beam” in their eye on this, while they are attempting to remove the cross splinter in others.

    Yet, none of that would matter so much to us, since even an idol is "nothing" as Paul says, but rather what ought to interest us, is what are the Doctrines that are taught, and are they in harmony with Scripture/Christ Jesus, and that is what is important to us.
    Revelation 22:13 KJB - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    Revelation 22:16 KJB - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    Side Note:

    If seeking the 'translation' from the NWT [the Watch Tower's, or Jehovah's Witness, New World Translation] notice carefully where the quote marks [in both singles and doubles] actually begin and end in verses 12-16, and who is directly speaking [verse numbers are bracketed, bolded for emphasis, and quotation marks emphasized in bold red and key words]:

    Revelation 22:12-16 NWT - [12] ' Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. [13] I am the Al'pha and the O·me'ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. [14] Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. [15] Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.'

    [16] ' I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things, for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star. '

    Who comes with the reward?

    Isaiah 40:10 KJB - Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

    Matthew 16:27 KJB - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Colossians 3:24 KJB - Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

    Revelation 22:12 KJB - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    1 Timothy 6:14 KJB - That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    1 Timothy 6:15 KJB - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

    1 Timothy 6:16 KJB - Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Revelation 17:14 KJB - These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    Revelation 19:11 KJB - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    Revelation 19:12 KJB - His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    Revelation 19:13 KJB - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Revelation 19:14 KJB - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    Revelation 19:15 KJB - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Revelation 19:16 KJB - And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​

    Jesus is the “... author and finisher ...”:

    Hebrews 12:2 KJB - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

    This matches the Aleph and Tau, the Alpha and Omega of Genesis 1:1, the Word that was with God, and who was God, not the person of the eternal Father, but the eternal person of the Son.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  17. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    The Lord not a Lord. Shema Israel !
     
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Who is the JEHOVAH that goes with us, and that gives us rest?

    Exodus 33:11 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

    Exodus 33:14 KJB - And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.​

    Jesus said:

    Matthew 11:28 KJB - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

    Matthew 11:29 KJB - Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.​

    The Sabbath was made by the LORD, JEHOVAH God:

    Genesis 2:1 KJB - Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

    Genesis 2:2 KJB - And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    Genesis 2:3 KJB - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

    Exodus 20:9 KJB - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

    Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

    Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Deuteronomy 5:12 KJB - Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

    Deuteronomy 5:13 KJB - Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

    Deuteronomy 5:14 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

    Deuteronomy 5:15 KJB - And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.​

    Jesus made the Sabbath, at the beginning for man-kind:

    Mark 2:27 KJB - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.​

    Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath, His Holy Day, in Creation and Redemption:

    Matthew 12:8 KJB - For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

    Mark 2:28 KJB - Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

    Luke 6:5 KJB - And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.​

    God of the Past, Present and Future, who gives Rest, to all who are weary and heavy laden and desire Him:

    Exodus 16:23 KJB - And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

    Exodus 31:15 KJB - Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

    Exodus 35:2 KJB - Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

    Leviticus 23:3 KJB - Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

    Joshua 1:13 KJB - Remember the word which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, saying, The LORD your God hath given you rest, and hath given you this land.

    Joshua 1:15 KJB - Until the LORD have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the LORD your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD'S servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising.

    Joshua 21:44 KJB - And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

    Joshua 22:4 KJB - And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.

    Joshua 23:1 KJB - And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.

    1 Kings 5:4 KJB - But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.

    1 Kings 8:56 KJB - Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

    1 Chronicles 22:9 KJB - Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

    1 Chronicles 22:18 KJB - Is not the LORD your God with you? and hath he not given you rest on every side? for he hath given the inhabitants of the land into mine hand; and the land is subdued before the LORD, and before his people.

    1 Chronicles 23:25 KJB - For David said, The LORD God of Israel hath given rest unto his people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem for ever:

    2 Chronicles 14:7 KJB - Therefore he said unto Judah, Let us build these cities, and make about them walls, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us; because we have sought the LORD our God, we have sought him, and he hath given us rest on every side. So they built and prospered.

    2 Chronicles 15:15 KJB - And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about.

    2 Chronicles 20:30 KJB - So the realm of Jehoshaphat was quiet: for his God gave him rest round about.

    Isaiah 11:10 KJB - And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Isaiah 14:3 KJB - And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

    Isaiah 56:2 KJB - Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

    Isaiah 56:6 KJB - Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

    Isaiah 58:13 KJB - If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

    Jeremiah 6:16 KJB - Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

    Jeremiah 31:2 KJB - Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

    Jeremiah 50:34 KJB - Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.

    Hebrews 4:1 KJB - Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

    Hebrews 4:2 KJB - For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    Hebrews 4:3 KJB - For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Hebrews 4:4 KJB - For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

    Hebrews 4:5 KJB - And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

    Hebrews 4:6 KJB - Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

    Hebrews 4:7 KJB - Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

    Hebrews 4:8 KJB - For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

    Hebrews 4:9 KJB - There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

    Hebrews 4:10 KJB - For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

    Hebrews 4:11 KJB - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    Hebrews 4:12 KJB - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​
     
  19. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Let's see if John has anything to say about this God that was with God even from eternity:

    John 1:

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    Genesis:

    Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:1 HOT - בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃

    Genesis 1:1 HOT Translit. - B'rëshiyt Bärä élohiym ët haSHämayim w'ët hääretz​

    Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Genesis 1:3 KJB - And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Genesis 1:6 KJB - And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    2 Corinthians 4:6 KJB - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;​

    Genesis 1:7 KJB - And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
    Genesis 1:14KJB - And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

    Genesis 1:16 KJB - And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    Genesis 1:20 KJB - And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    Genesis 1:21 KJB - And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:24 KJB - And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

    Genesis 1:25 KJB - And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

    1 John 1:

    1 John 1:1 KJB - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    1 John 1:2 KJB - (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    1 John 1:3 KJB - That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

    John 1:

    John 1:4 KJB - In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    John 1:5 KJB - And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    John 1:6 KJB - There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    John 1:7 KJB - The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    John 1:8 KJB - He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    John 1:9 KJB - That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    John 1:11 KJB - He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    Jesus:

    John 5:39 KJB - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    John 8:12 KJB - Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    John 9:5 KJB - As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

    John 12:46 KJB - I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.​

    1 John 1:

    1 John 1:5 KJB - This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.​

    Revelation 21:

    Revelation 21:23 KJB - And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.​
     
  20. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    A detour, on some excuses, before getting back into the many texts:

    The WTS [Watch Tower & Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witness's organization] will often quote Colossians 1:15, and ask. “How can Jesus be God, since Jesus is called the 'firstborn of every creature'?” They incorrectly teach that Jesus is the 'first created' who created all [other] things, see their NWT [New World Translation].

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:​

    Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:2,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.

    However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:

    Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

    Genesis 48:17 KJB - And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

    Genesis 48:18 KJB - And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

    Genesis 48:19 KJB - And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

    Genesis 48:20 KJB - And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.​

    Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.

    Genesis 49:3 KJB - Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

    1 Chronicles 5:1 KJB - Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.​

    Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.

    Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

    Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 KJB].

    Numbers 3:41 KJB - And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.

    Numbers 3:42 KJB - And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.

    Numbers 3:43 KJB - And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.

    Numbers 3:44 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

    Numbers 3:45 KJB - Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.

    Numbers 8:14 KJB - Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

    Numbers 8:15 KJB - And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.

    Numbers 8:16 KJB - For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

    Numbers 8:17 KJB - For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

    Numbers 8:18 KJB - And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.​

    The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.

    Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.​

    David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.

    Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.​

    Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:

    Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

    Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.​

    The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.

    1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief;)

    Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in otherwords “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.

    Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.

    So, in considering the word “Firstborn”, what does this mean when it refers to Jesus in Colossians 1:15? Context tells us.

    The actual Greek word for “first created” is “protoktioti”, but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully instead, by aide of the Holy Spirit Himself [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], the Greek word for the “chosen” headship connotation: “prototokos” [“Firstborn”, see also Hebrews 1:6 KJB “first begotten into the world”; Revelation 1:5 “first begotten of the dead”]. For we are to inherit all things through Jesus Christ, for notice:

    2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.​

    So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15 KJB, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant “firstborn” in the sense of “headship and pre-eminence of promise” or “first created”.

    We go to Colossians 1:18 KJB:

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

    Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line: “... head of the body … who is the beginning … have the preeminence.”

    Now, consider the greater context of the whole of scripture, for Christ Jesus can be said to fulfill both meanings, in that not only is:

    [1] Jesus is the “firstborn”, being the preeminent one:

    Romans 9:5 KJB - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

    Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Ephesians 4:15 KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

    Hebrews 7:26 KJB - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

    [2] Jesus is also the “firstborn” of the Woman/Church:

    Isaiah 9:6 KJB - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Luke 2:11 KJB - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    Revelation 12:1 KJB - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    Revelation 12:2 KJB - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

    Revelation 12:3 KJB - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

    Revelation 12:4 KJB - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

    Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    Revelation 12:13 KJB - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    After this, how can any say that the Son [Jesus] is created using that “firstborn” text? Jesus' earthly body is created, but He, Himself is not:

    Hebrews 10:5 KJB - Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    Galatians 4:4 KJB - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,​
     
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