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Featured Non-Trinitarian The God or a god

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by he-man, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Jehovah can't destroy Satan... Not yet anyway! It would be illegal!
    In Isaiah 45:7... Explain how Jehovah creates "darkness" and "evil"? To me there's only one way for a Holy God to "create" these things, but I'd like to hear what you think?
    If God creates Evil, then he creates things like Gang Rape, Child Abuse, Torture etc etc. Is this your God?

    That's right, Satan was cast down at the start point of the "Last Days", hence the growing period of troubles since 1914.
    Yes, this was Job's error, to think these things really came from God. Read the last few Chapters. Also Satan enters in among what I'm assuming was a council type arrangement at the start of Job, what does this mean?
  2. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    If I may ask, when do you believe that "the Last Days" started, and could you list a few scripture references [just references, I can look them up, to keep this shorter]?

    I believe from scripture [KJB] that "the last days" began in the days of the Apostles [Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:17-18; 2 Timothy 3:1; Hebrews 1:2; James 5:3; 2 Peter 3:3 KJB] and have continued until now [thus the last 2,000 years], preparatory for "the last day" [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24, 12:48 KJB], aka "the Day of the LORD".
  3. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Wow, now that is heresy. Heman, no joking, you are in serious trouble.

    The devil, satan, dragon, serpent, aka Lucifer, is a real physical tangible being who originated in Heaven, and was once the covering cherub by the very throne of God:

    Ezekiel 28:13 KJB - Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    Ezekiel 28:14 KJB - Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    Ezekiel 28:15 KJB - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    Matthew 4:5 KJB - Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

    Matthew 13:39 KJB - The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    Matthew 25:41 KJB - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    1 John 3:8 KJB - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Revelation 12:9 KJB - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Revelation 12:12 KJB - Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

    2 Corinthians 12:7-8 [thorn in the flesh of Paul/eyesight]

    The Context:

    It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 12:1

    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. - 2 Corinthians 12:2

    And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) - 2 Corinthians 12:3

    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. - 2 Corinthians 12:4

    Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. - 2 Corinthians 12:5

    For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me. - 2 Corinthians 12:6

    And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. - 2 Corinthians 12:7

    For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. - 2 Corinthians 12:8

    And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. - 2 Corinthians 12:9

    Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. - 2 Corinthians 12:10

    I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. - 2 Corinthians 12:11

    Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. - 2 Corinthians 12:12

    For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except [it be] that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong. - 2 Corinthians 12:13

    Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. - 2 Corinthians 12:14

    And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. - 2 Corinthians 12:15

    But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. - 2 Corinthians 12:16

    Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you? - 2 Corinthians 12:17

    I desired Titus, and with [him] I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? [walked we] not in the same steps? - 2 Corinthians 12:18

    Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but [we do] all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. - 2 Corinthians 12:19

    For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and [that] I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest [there be] debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: - 2 Corinthians 12:20

    [And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. - 2 Corinthians 12:21

    The context of Paul's “thorn” [vs 7], was specifically said to be “in the flesh” [vs 7, Greek, “τη σαρκι”], and therefore was not an 'evil spirit', but an “infirmit[y]” [vs 5,9,10; Greek “ασθενειαις”, of body or mind] that was constantly with him, even though he had prayed to God “thrice” [vs 8] for “it”/”thing” [vs 8] to be 'removed' [vs 8; “depart”; Greek “αποστη”]. Jesus told him, that “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.” [vs 9] The Greek word for “weakness” is “ασθενεια” and it means feebleness, weakness, disease of body or mind, and is the same root word used in vs 5,9,10 for “infirmities”. See again a mention in 2 Corinthians 11:30:

    If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. 2 Corinthians 11:30

    We see that Paul twice called it “my [mine] infirmities” [2 Corinthians 11:30, 12:9], which he says was “in the flesh” and not of spirit. The part where Paul says, “the messenger of satan”, is referring to the “infirmity of the flesh” [Galatians 4:13], which he says was “my temptation” [Galatians 4:14], through which “infirmity” the devil/satan tried to get to Paul with over this matter of the “eyes” [Galatians 4:15]. Satan always loves to attempt to cause us to doubt God in his allowing certain things to remain with us for a time. Yet, God's purpose is to demonstrate His love towards us, in that He knows what is best for our own salvation. Paul was to leave his infirmity with God, and trust Him and continue where the LORD led him.

    Paul is contrasting his clear spiritual eyesight and the visions he received from Jesus, with that of his present poor physical condition, wherein he had to preach with such physical infirmity, that he may not be puffed up at receiving such blessing of God to even see Heaven [Paul, speaking of himself in the third person, the one that was caught up in visions and revelations, as was made known from his first encounter [Acts 9:3-16]].

    It is when we recognize our need of Christ Jesus in all things, even though we may be granted great gifts, that we truly see. Therefore, this “thorn” “in the flesh” was “given” [vs 7, “there was given to me”] to Paul by God that he might not be exalted beyond measure, puffed up, by the great things shown unto him, done for him, etc and so trust in his own righteousness, works, flesh, etc and come to be destroyed of that which was to be a blessing. God allowed Paul's eyesight to remain in the condition it was, to keep humility in Paul, and to help him to always see his need of Jesus Christ.

    The word for “thorn” in 2 Corinthians 7 is the Greek “σκολοψ”, which means thorn/brier/prickly/pointy [like a stake or pallisade], as we see again in the so-called LXX [Septuagint]:

    But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Numbers 33:55

    ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ἀπολέσητε τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἀπὸ προσώπου ὑμῶν, καὶ ἔσται οὓς ἐὰν καταλίπητε ἐξ αὐτῶν, σκόλοπες ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ὑμῶν καὶ βολίδες ἐν ταῖς πλευραῖς ὑμῶν καὶ ἐχθρεύσουσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἐφ᾿ ἣν ὑμεῖς κατοικήσετε, Numbers 33:55 LXX*​

    In this passage we see a clear connection with the “pricks” [thorn] of the “eyes” and “sides”, which are the exact words Paul also uses. Further, we also see:

    And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 28:24

    καὶ οὐκ ἔσονται οὐκέτι τῷ οἴκῳ τοῦ Ισραηλ σκόλοψ πικρίας καὶ ἄκανθα ὀδύνης ἀπὸ πάντων τῶν περικύκλῳ αὐτῶν τῶν ἀτιμασάντων αὐτούς· καὶ γνώσονται ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι κύριος. Ezekiel 28:24 LXX*

    Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths. Hosea 2:6 [LXX Hosea 2:8]

    διὰ τοῦτο ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ φράσσω τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτῆς ἐν σκόλοψιν καὶ ἀνοικοδομήσω τὰς ὁδοὺς αὐτῆς, καὶ τὴν τρίβον αὐτῆς οὐ μὴ εὕρῃ· Hosea 2:8 LXX8​

    We, know that though Paul had been blinded by His encounter with Jesus [Acts 9:9], yet he later had his eyesight restored to where he could see [Acts 9:12,17,18], yet Paul had not clear physical eyesight, and this is witnessed in several places in the Scripture:

    [1] Paul could not immediately distinguish the High Priest from the other Council Members:

    And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. Acts 23:1

    And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. Acts 23:2

    Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? Acts 23:3

    And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Acts 23:4

    Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. Acts 23:5​

    [2] Paul, in writing to the Galatians, speaks of their original love to him, in that they would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him for use if they could:

    Brethren, I beseech you, be as I [am]; for I [am] as ye [are]: ye have not injured me at all. - Galatians 4:12

    Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. - Galatians 4:13

    And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus. - Galatians 4:14

    Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me. - Galatians 4:15

    Notice, how Paul uses some of the same terminology to speak of this “thorn”. He used the words “infirmity”, “of the flesh”, “in my flesh” and in this instance he clearly speaks of the “eyes” as being the source of the infirmity.

    [3] Paul, though he personally wrote the letter to the Galatians [6:11], to show his great love for them, he normally used a personal scribe [amanuensis] to do so [see “I Tertius, who wrote this epistle ...” Romans 16:22] and usually just signed the letter once transcribed [see “The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.” 1 Corinthians 16:21 and “The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.” 2 Thessalonians 3:17 and “The salutation by the hand of me Paul. Remember my bonds. Grace be with you. Amen.” Colossians 4:18 and “I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.” Philemon 1:19], even though Paul was a thoroughly learned man in letters, writing, in several languages [1 Corinthians 14:18], etc [Acts 22:3, 23:6; Philippians 3:5].

    Satan was the real King [Prince/Ruler] of Babylon, see for instance Daniel 10, etc.
  4. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
  5. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    That's a misunderstanding of how God preserves His words, and how translation works. There are no originals around that anyone is aware of. Not one, laying around. God's word is preserved in my hands today, Psalms 12:6,7, which in the English, is the King James Bible.

    Is the word "other" inserted as italics in the KJB? Sure, as are many other words,"the", "sacrifice", "as", "of", "by", etc, etc. Needful for translation. See Genesis 20:16 KJB, first known instance that I am aware of:

    Genesis 20:16 KJB - And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.
    In this instance, the word "other" was added through translation, because the sentence required this to be so to be properly rendered into the English, and means "... and all else [besides]".

    The next known instance is Genesis 25:23 KJB:

    Genesis 25:23 KJB - And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
    In this instance, the word "the other" was again added through translation, because the sentence again required this to be so to be properly rendered into the English language, and means "... the one nation in the womb will become stronger than the other of the two nations that are in the womb ..." Notice, the words "two manner of people", require the additional words to be clear, this one nation to be identified over the other [or second] nation.

    And so on through the KJB. There is not an instance, of where the translators added the word "other" where it was not necessary for the translation.

    However, in the case of the NWT, it is the bias of their belief that precedes [apriori], that requires them to insert the word "other" [4 times] in the Colossians 1 text, where there is no such warrant to do so when translating. That is the difference. Also, in so adding the word "other" alters the text seriously from one meaning to an entirely different and opposit meaning.

    In the KJB, Jesus is eternal Deity, the person of the Son, who created all things.

    In the NWT, Jesus is the created arch-type [by the Father, at some point in eternity past], a created son [though above all others], who then created everything else.​

    The two are not the same obviously.

    The translators of the King James Bible, of course have a bias [all men do], but that bias was to be faithful to the word of God an its translation, without altering its meaning, even if they disagreed with what it said. There are Anglican and Puritan, etc translators. There was balance, and even moreso, the general church itself could input, and if needed I can cite this for you, from the rules laid down for the translation groups, at Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster.

    I already agreed to that, from the scriptures [KJB] I cited [1]. The LXX citations, only agreed with that position defined.

    Again, I am not arguing against any time element in regards the definition of the word firstborn.

    I stated that here [2].

    Here is what the text says by translation:

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:​

    Notice, it does not say "first created", in any way. Even the NWT does not say 'first-created' [yet, though they keep changing it, so who knows]. The context, the very words being translated, teach that it is by Jesus, that everything that is created, was created, as John 1:1-3, 1 John 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:1-2, etc, show.

    Jesus is the "only begotten" of the Father, the only true and eternal self-existing Son. All others are created or adopted sons [angels and humans].

    John 1:14 KJB - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    John 1:18 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 3:16 KJB - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 3:18 KJB - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Typology [Abraham did have another son, Ishmael, before Isaac, but Ishmael was born through doubt, and Isaac through faith in the promise of God, and thus is the "only begotten" of Abraham, the real son]:

    Hebrews 11:17 KJB - By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    1 John 4:9 KJB - In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.​

    If the WTS would have this text say Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation", that would include animals, bacteria, rock [rocks are born???], water [water is born???], particles [particles [ions. neutrons, etc] are born???], animate and inanimate, etc. Is that how I am to continue to take the thought from the WTS? I pray not.

    The NWT says,

    Colossians 1:15-16 NWT [silver sword] 15 He is the image of the invisible God,m the firstborn of all creation;n 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,o whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through himp and for him.
    However, before even getting to that part b, look at part a, "Who is the image of the invisible God". Let that sink in a moment. Think about that. It ties into Hebrews 1:

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    No created being can be "the express image of his [the Father's] person". Why? Think about this. Secondly, it teaches Jesus to be the "visible" [manifested, revealed, see 1 John 1:1-3, He is the "eternal life" that is "with" the "Father"; John 1:1-3, are saying the same, that the "word" was "with" the "Father", and let there be "Light" is the manifestation of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4-6 KJB] JEHOVAH, while the Father is the "invisible" JEHOVAH. None but JEHOVAH Jesus, could save mankind "by himself". Catch this. He did this "alone" [Isaiah 63:3 KJB] He was forsaken of Father, Holy Spirit [My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me ...' Psalms 22 KJB, etc], angels, and man [".... and of the people there was none with him ..."], because of our sins which He took. "Alone" with the weight of all the world of sin. "Alone" ... let that sink in. No creature could ever do that, and in fact, your own sins, and mine own sins alone would crush us, would crush any other creature, angel or not, let alone others sins added to it, but yet He took it all upon Himself, "alone"; think of the Almighty strength to bear the sin of a whole world ...

    If we compare to Hebrews 1:5-6, we see Paul parallel in language:

    Hebrews 1:5 KJB - For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Hebrews 1:6 KJB - And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    [Again, for Hebrews 1:6 and Psalms 97:7 NWT, see [1]]

    Same word used, but translated as "firstbegotten". How then can Jesus be both the "only begotten", and also the "first begotten"? One deals with His eternal Godhead ["only begotten of the Father"], and the second, deals with Him as the redeemer being born into the world as the second/last Adam, and being the brother to many other sons of God ["first begotten"], He having the pre-eminence, though born in the middle of human history.

    In Revelation 1:5, we see John's parallel to Colossians 1:18 KJB:

    Revelation 1:5 KJB - And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    This speaks to Jesus' pre-eminence of resurrection. Though there were others literally first resurrected before Jesus, such as Moses [Matthew 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; John 11:25; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9 KJB], but Moses was only resurrected before, in the promise of the redeemer to come, thus this was the first time that death had been permanently broken [by Jesus, as a type of what Jesus would later do in Himself], and so Moses, "he was raised to immortal life, holding his title in the name of the Redeemer". Others had been resurrected before, but fell again into the sleep of death at some point later, Lazarus, etc.

    What is the context of Colossian 1:15? It is in association with being born [as a man, and of the Holy Spirit, and in Jesus case, He came through the woman; Galatians 4:4 KJB, a "body" of the fallen sinful flesh of mankind [Romans 8:3 KJB, etc], was prepared for Him; Hebrews 10:5 KJB]:

    Colossians 1:13 KJB - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Colossians 1:14 KJB - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

    Notice, that the context, speaks of Jesus being the "head" over a "body". This was so, because of Jesus took upon himself the fallen sinful flesh man mankind, to redeem us. Notice all of the connecting words, about "blood" and "redemption", "forgiveness of sins", "delivered", "translated", "church", "body", "from the dead" [resurrection], and the "preeminence". The context is the focus of the human life of Jesus, the New Man, the second/last Adam [1 Corinthians 15:45 KJB]. Therefore, in Colossians 1:15:

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:​

    Why does Paul make the connection then with "every creature"? It is because, since He is their [the creatures] Creator, it was He who took the responsibility upon Himself to redeem those who were fallen because of sin.

    Colossians 1:23 KJB - If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    Mark 16:15 KJB - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.​

    Notice, in Jesus is the New Creation, and thus He is the Head of all of it, the First in order, rank, etc:

    2 Corinthians 5:17 KJB - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    Therefore, the "firstborn" deals with the Gospel, and the mystery of Godliness:

    1 Timothy 3:16 KJB - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
    Since the Son of God, was come in the "flesh", and died upon the cross, and was rose again in the flesh and bones and glorified [Luke 24:39 KJB], He is the first, the head, the beginning, the new Adam, and this all who have faith in Him, are His children [Genesis 2:23], and His brethren [thus the first among many brethren; see Hebrews 2 KJB].

    Jesus' flesh was "made of a woman", even "prepared", but He, Himself has existed from eternity "with" the Father, ever sitting at the right hand of the Father, until it was said, "Lo, I come ..."

    Goodie!, goodie!, extra credits. Lets go for a 4.5 GPA

    We cannot, and never said we could. The bible [KJB] is again, defined, as thus, as I had stated similarly here [1]:

    Isaiah 28:10 KJB - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

    1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    Genesis 40:8 KJB - And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
    The same word, used elsewhere does bear weight on that word used elsewhere in scripture. When doing a study of any particular word, we go through the entire Bible and see it in every context, in English. Then afterwards use a concordance, to locate other places where such a word may be translated differently and again see them in their contexts, and I also look at the surrounding and related words, and all forms of the word [-ed, -ing, -eth, -s, -ly, a-, un-, etc].

    Has nothing to do with a word I do not like. All of the words in Colossians 1:15-18, etc are perfect in the King James as they are.

    You should ask the WTS the question, why they felt the need to make an addition, which clearly alters the text to prove their apriori. It wasn't in the translation, and definitely changes the meaning 180 degrees, which is a far cry from simply adding the italicized word "other" [etc] in other places which simply attempts to convey a more smooth reading, as in Genesis 20:16 KJB, etc.

    If we took the italicized words ["other"] out of all KJB texts, it would not change the meaning of those sentences 180 degrees, as does the NWT "addition" in Colossians [4 times mind you]. The removal of all these below, would make for a more harsh reading, but would be unchanged in context.

    Here are all the known instances, that I am aware [I apologize if I missed any], of in the KJB with the added italicized words "other" in them [I looked these up myself]:


    Genesis 20:16, 25:23, 31:50, 41:3, 47:21; Exodus 4:7, 26:3, 28:10,25,27[x2], 30:32, 36:10, 37:8, 39:20[x2]; Leviticus 11:23, 13:26, 20:24,26, 25:53; Numbers 10:21, 36:3; Deuteronomy 13:7; Joshua 11:19, 21:27, 22:7; Judges 7:7, 9:44, 13:10, 16:17; 1 Samuel 30:20; 2 Samuel 1:24, 17:9, 24:22; 1 Kings 7:6; 2 Kings 12:7; 1 Chronicles 9:32; 2 Chronicles 13:9, 20:1, 25:12, 29:34, 30:23, 32:17,22, 34:12, 35:13; Nehemiah 11:1; Esther 2:12; Job 8:12, 24:24; Psalms 73:5[x2], 85:10; Isaiah 26:13; Jeremiah 12:12, 25:33, 32:20; Ezekiel 16:34, 41:21, 48:8; Daniel 3:21; Hosea 9:1, 13:10

    Acts 5:29; 1 Corinthians 11:21

    What do you immediately notice, between the Hebrew and Koine Greek translation of the scripture into the English, in regards the addition of italicized words "other"? The NT basically doesn't need a single addition in the KJB, I was actually surprised at this, as it was unexpected. Therefore, even the balance of percentage is against what the NWT did. Yet, there's more:

    Therefore, even with such overwhelming evidence, should the WTS just be purposefully and intentfully adding the word "other" 4 more times [without italics* [1]] into Colossians 1, to suit what they think/believe [apriori] it says?

    *Colossians 1:16-17 NWT - 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,o whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through himp and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,q and by means of him all other things were made to exist,​

    Where are the italics, when they know for a fact that the Koine Greek word for "other" [allos or loipos, etc], is not in a single ms, etc?

    The King James translators were honest in what they did.

    Do you see the same integrity for the WTS producers? I personally do not. I am not asking you to explain for them. I am just asking you to stand back and look at it. Ask yourself, how many persons among the WTS, Jehovah's Witnesses, know that there is not a single Koine Greek authority [or any langauge MS, authority] for those 4 additions? You ought to be asking the WTS, why aren't they in Italics? Do you [the WTS] need to be hiding such things, if we have the truth? Aren't there better ways to explain a text, than to simply insert 4 unauthorized words without italics to prove what we believe? Do you tell people even in the footnote that they are additions to the text and not 'original'? I see no footnotes to this effect, though the NWT [silver sword] is replete with footnotes. There WTS, why no footnotes here instructing the reader? If I were WTS/JW, I would be asking those questions.

    I would not say that the word "God" implies "love", but that He is Love, power, wisdom, etc. it is His character.

    God is "the Truth", and Truth is eternal, uncreated.

    John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.​

    No created being could say that, ever. Not you, not I, not any created being, not Gabriel, etc.

    Jesus doesn't have the truth, the way and the life. He is the truth, the way and the life. We don't go to Jesus to get "truth", "way" and "life" and walk away. We go to Him, and stay with Him, for to leave Him, is to leave the truth, the way and the life.

    No, because it was never my argument to do what you suggest.

    No and Yes, as there is a place for substitution, notice that ways of the Lord are equal:

    Ezekiel 18:25 KJB - Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

    Ezekiel 18:29 KJB - Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?​

    His word, like an equation, is perfectly balanced.

    So, "No", in the sense that it would not ever mean not God. God is love [1 John 4:8,16], therefore in 1 Corinthians 13, substitute the KJB word "charity", with "God" and get real depth out of it as I have.

    So, "Yes", in that a substitution can take place, and retain all its depth. For instance:

    Romans 6:14 KJB - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Romans 6:14 KJB - For X shall not have Y over you: for ye are not Z, but under A.
    Let's do the substitution properly, in equality:

    X What is "sin"? -- 1 John 3:4 KJB - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Y What is "dominion"? -- Matthew 20:25 KJB - But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

    Daniel 7:27 KJB - And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    Z What is "under the law"? -- Romans 3:19 KJB - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    A What is "grace"? -- 2 Corinthians 12:9 KJB And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    Titus 2:11 KJB - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    Titus 2:12 KJB - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    Acts 4:33 KJB - And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.


    Romans 6:14 KJB - For X shall not have Y over you: for ye are not Z, but under A.

    Romans 6:14 KJB - For [the transgression of the law] shall not have [exercise [of] authority] over you: for ye are not [guilty before God], but under [God's great power, which is made perfect in weakness, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world].
    Substitution is perfect, and still balanced, still equal.

    Yet there are those who make mistakes in doing this, and unbalance the equation of God's word, for instance:

    Romans 3:31 KJB - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.​

    Some people [incorrectly] think that [the Law = 10 Commandments = Old Covenant] [this will be X]. Yet it is not true, and we can know by this and other means. Plug in that X into the word "Law" in Romans 3:31.

    Romans 3:31 KJB - Do we then make void X through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish X.

    Romans 3:31 KJB - Do we then make void Old Covenant through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish Old Covenant.​

    Makes no sense whatsoever now. The equation is unbalanced. This because the Law [10 Commandments] is not [and never was] the Old Covenant itself, at all. Many have a massive misunderstanding here on what the Old Covenant was. For another time.

    Again, it was not my argument, if you would more carefully read my responses, including this one.

    Yes, John 1:1 can have substitution, but only with equal words. For instance, Read John 1:1-3 and 1 John 1:1-3. They are parallel, using slightly differing words.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

    Now, let's do some equal substitution, rightly dividing the word of God.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was X, and X was with God, and X was God.​

    Who/What is "the Word"?


    Luke 8:11 KJB - Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

    Subquestion: Who/what is "the seed"?

    Galatians 3:16 KJB - Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.​


    Revelation 19:11 KJB - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    Revelation 19:12 KJB - His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    Revelation 19:13 KJB - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Subquestion: Who/what is "True"?

    John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    John 17:17 KJB - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    1 Kings 17:24 KJB - And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.​


    Now, let's do some equal substitution, rightly dividing the word of God.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was X, and X was with God, and X was God.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Truth, and the Truth was with God, and the Truth was God.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Seed, and the Seed was with God, and the Seed was God.​

    All are equal.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was Seed, and Truth was with God, and Jesus was God.
    And since "God is love":

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was Seed, and Truth was with Love, and Jesus was Love.

    Love requires 2 or more.​

    This was why I asked you the question about Genesis.

    Which came first, the tree, seed or the fruit? The natural things are explaining to us spiritual things. Natural dealing with created, and the spiritual dealing with eternal Creator/s [in a way we might understand, as no man can fully comperehend JEHOVAH Elohiym]:

    The "Tree", "Seed" and "Fruit" existed eternally together. The Tree of Eternal Life.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  6. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Maybe start another thread, i'll join you there?
  7. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    I am probably going to do that, and have been thinking about doing it for some time. Give me some time.
  8. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Sorry buddy this post is way too long! I thinks it's about 12 pages of mainly unrelated side issues. Try to reduce it to maybe reflect the length of the post that you're responding to.

    Sorry to be dismissive, but I don't know where to start with this. I'm all up for a conversation with you about Colossians but this is so distractive of the simple points being made by me that there about 25+ separate points that you've opened up here, most of them don't relate to the points at hand.

    If you want me to converse with you about this, which again I'm more than happy to do, you need to reduce this response, im a very busy person with a business to run and I don't really have the time in the first place.

    If you take this as some kind of victory that I CAN'T respond, then I'll no longer post in reply to you full stop. Sorry again to be so dismissive of your post, alot of work obviously went into it, but I'm not blessed with your amount of free time.

  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    We will be moving onto prophecy next, in a new thread. I am done here.
  10. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Well so be it, but I was just trying to point out that "departures" from simple statements like Colossians 1:15 require lengthy posts to explain.
  11. he-man

    he-man he-man

    United States
    It is clear that you mind has been obscured by the superstitions of the falsehoods of mainstream so called Chiristianity Gosh, most scholars know Job is a parable.Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said, Job 29:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,; Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and an adversary came also among them. Again there was a day ... See Job 1:6. These seasons are represented as periodical, when the angels came, as it were, to make report to God of what they had observed and done. The Chaldee renders this, “And there was a day of the great judgment (רבא דינא יום yôm dı̂ynā' rābā'), a day of the remission of sins (שבוק יום סרחניא) and there came bands (כתי) of angels.” It here means that he came before the Lord after he had had permission to afflict; Job. He had no power of his own and was limited as a prosecuting angels, to inflict the punishments in this parable. Some do not know the power of God and His control of evil:
    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.; Jeremiah11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.; Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? 2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. Job 31:23 For destruction from God was a terror to me, and by reason of his highness I could not endure.
    Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
    Now consider why you left out the primary verse 12?
    The dirge of the prince of Tyre, answering to the dirge of the state. The passage is ironical; its main purpose is to depict all the glory, real or assumed, of “the prince of Tyrus,” in order to show how deplorable should be his ruin. Ezekiel 28:12-15 'Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, And thou hast said to him: A Lament over the King of Tyre; Prophecy Against Sidon; and now you have even left out the primary verse 25 and 38? Matthew 13:18-39; 25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat, and went away [DARBY]; 28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather them up? [DARBY] Matthew 25:21 metaphorically applied to a man (as in Matthew 13-38) who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him;
    Mat 13:30 Suffer both to grow together unto the harvest, and in time of the harvest I will say to the harvestmen, Gather first the darnel, and bind it into bundles to burn it; but the wheat bring together into my granary. 41 The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all offences, and those that practise lawlessness;
    1 John 3:8 1 John 3:7 Children, let no man lead you astray; he that practises righteousness is righteous, even as *he* is righteous.
    1Jn 3:7-8 He that practises sin is of the devil; for from the beginning the devil sins. To this end the Son of God has been manifested, that he might undo the works of the devil.; the devil, specified in the Bible, is only the personification of fallen human nature.; The design of this manifestation—“that He might destroy the works of the devil.” (J. Jowett, M. A.);
    Revelation 12:9; And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the false accuser, and slanderer, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him. (metaphorically applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him) Revelation 12:12; Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.Matthew 8:29, “Art thou come hither to torment us before the time?”
    2 Corinthians 12:2-21 It is not uncommon, moreover, for a man to speak of himself in the third person. Dr. Benson supposes that this vision was made to him when he was praying in the temple after his return to Jerusalem, the scene passed before the mind in a vision, so that he seemed to have been caught up to heaven; he Bible speaks of but three heavens, and among the Jews in the apostolic ages also the heavens were divided into three:
    (1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.
    (2) The starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated. The heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God.
    Daniel Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. The real king
  12. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Hey Buddy, just wanted to say don't start a new thread just yet. I may be out of town for a few days and limited time available. I could do with a break from here for a few days anyway...

    Tried to pm this message by couldn't!