The Global Flood

[JohnR7]

The Miracle required to get animals from diverse ecological environments.

The only animals on the ark came from Eden. God saved one unique, biodiverse system or ecology.

Eden was to expand and fill the world. After the flood that is what happened. In a sense the whole world was on the Ark, because what was on the ark was to multiply and fill the world.

God's plan and purpose for this world is for it to become like a paradise.

Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent's food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,"
Says the Lord.

 

[AV1611VET]

And only one window. Are you familiar with the ammonia levels present in animal excrement?

Maybe on your ark that would present a problem, but the Bible says---

A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above;...

---and that's all the info it gives on this window; so your question is moot; and, in view of the fact that it did work, your question is mooter.

Under extreme stress metabolization increases resulting in the utilization of more calories, not less. You have it backward.

So everyone aboard the Titanic headed for the galley? (Sorry, couldn't resist that one.)

Would you like to talk about carnivore physiology, AV1611VET?

No thanks, I already saw it in action in Jurassic Park; and I'm sure even Brian Keith in Daktari couldn't explain why the lions didn't eat Daniel, but ate the other people the next morning.

The Bible says "A" and the Bible says "B". Therefore, "B" proves "A"?
Circular reasoning. You can't use the Bible as support for the Bible.

No, the Bible says "A" and the Bible says "B". Therefore, "B" explains "A".

Is that a King James Bible?

 

[Jase]

Fourth: I don't think nearly as many animals boarded as you calculate.

So if not all the worlds animals had to be on the Ark, including all sea life, why the need for a flood that destroys the entire world? And again, the effects of a global flood would have boiled the entire Earth, including vaporizing all water on the planet - killing every single creature in existence, including all marine life.

But you conveniently ignore that because you live in your own little fantasy world where you can spout off Biblical passages, assume you're right, and never defend anything.

 

[Jase]

Only if the Flood was local would a containment wall be needed. It wasn't a local flood.

Where do you get the idea that it was global?

 

[JohnR7]

We do not seem to talk very much about God's command to multiply and fill the earth. People wonder if evolution is in the Bible and this sounds a little bit like the theory of evolution where God starts out small and things grow and expand from there to fill the earth. There are things in this world that can grow and expand very fast. Trees for example put out a LOT of seeds. One tree can produce a whole forest of trees.

So there is no question that God could fit the whole world on the Ark. The animals could have been small, they did not have to be full grown animals. Even they say you can fit the whole universe into something the size of a seed. But they do not have faith to believe you can fit the whole world into something the size of a football field.

It is funny how they have faith for one and not the other.

Genesis 1:27-28
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. [28] Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Genesis 8:17
Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you: birds and cattle and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth."

 

[AV1611VET]

Where do you get the idea that it was global?

From Genesis 7:19-24, with emphasis on verse 20.

 

[JohnR7]

From Genesis 7:19-24, with emphasis on verse 20.

Genesis 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

We do not read about the "breath of life" in Genesis ch 1. We first read about it in Eden in Ch 2.

So was the man in ch 1 different or the same as the man in ch 2 of genesis? Did cain violate the law of God and marry his "sister". Or did he go off to the land of Nod and find a wife there to marry?

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

We can not disregard here what the Bible is telling us about the breath of life and it's significance. Adam lived 6,000 years ago. God created a whole biodiverse system in Eden.

We are told that a day is 1,000 years. So 12,975 years ago, the ice age came to a end, the world flooded and God started a new thing here on the earth. Science tells us there were massive extinctions at this time.

Of course this is just a small part of the story. The history of mankind and the history of the world can fill up a little space if you really get into it. Universities have librarys filled with books that talk about how this world came to be the way it is now.

 

[AV1611VET]

We can not disregard here what the Bible is telling us about the breath of life and it's significance. Adam lived 6,000 years ago. God created a whole biodiverse system in Eden.

Well that's the beauty of it, bro. You and I can disagree with each other, and we'll have all eternity to discuss it in Heaven.

It may take that long for me to show you differently - (LOL - j/k).

 

[JohnR7]

It may take that long for me to show you differently - (LOL - j/k).

Yes, we will have a long time to work on all the details and get it all figured out. But we only have a little bit of time to win the lost for Christ.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Eden???

I sincerely believe (but can't prove) that Noah lived in what is now North America, but it's based on the flimsiest of interpretation: that God has a sense of humor.

Except that part of the decription of Eden is as follows

Genesis
2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates


Note it says is, not was. This doesn't sound like North America to me.

Then there is this

3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Just where in North America are the Cherubims and the flaming sword? Of course they are not anywhere are they?

The glaciers wouldn't have come until after the Flood, when, in the absence of a water canopy to create a global tropical climate,

Most "flood geologists" or "creation scientists" gave up on the "water canopy" or vapor canopy long ago and for good reasons. It makes no physical sense. I linked to Glenn's calculations but I have also done some vapor canopy calculations and it is just not a credible approach to producing flood water. Then again there is no credible source for the waters of Noah's flood it it was global.

the ice froze from the polar regions down to the Terminal Moraine - then receded to their present location. This is what "scientists" call the "Ice Age".

As I pointed out above there have been many ice ages not just one as flood believers claim. There is simply not time for these ice ages between the supposed flood and the present.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Pete Harcoff]

No --- yes --- yes; 2 outta 3 ain't bad, eh?

Why would you reject evolution? That's what biologists have concluded appears to have shaped life on Earth. It seems silly to reject it.

 

[Jase]

Why would you reject evolution? That's what biologists have concluded appears to have shaped life on Earth. It seems silly to reject it.

Because it disagrees with the King James Bible. That is AV's one and only defense against everything, even scripture itself. Of course I'm sure AV believes in adaptation but creationists have a funny way of pretending that isn't the same thing as evolution.

 

[Jase]

We are told that a day is 1,000 years. So 12,975 years ago, the ice age came to a end, the world flooded and God started a new thing here on the earth. Science tells us there were massive extinctions at this time.

John, there are civilizations older than 13,000 years. And there is certainly no way the KT asteroid and it's resulting Nuclear Winter, or the formation of the Himalayas or the splitting of Pangea, or the creation of the Atlantic Ocean, happened in the past 13,000 years.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, we will have a long time to work on all the details and get it all figured out. But we only have a little bit of time to win the lost for Christ.

So true!

 

[AV1611VET]

Except that part of the decription of Eden is as follows...

...

Note it says is, not was. This doesn't sound like North America to me.

...

Just where in North America are the Cherubims and the flaming sword? Of course they are not anywhere are they?

Huh?

What does Eden have to do with the Flood, which came 1500 years later?

I believe the Ark was built in North America, where Noah lived, and came to rest on Mount Ararat after the Flood.

Eden was far from North America (even though they were on the same continent - [Pangaea, that is]).

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Yes, we will have a long time to work on all the details and get it all figured out. But we only have a little bit of time to win the lost for Christ.

Wait... You honestly believe you are winning souls for Christ?

I don't think I've ever seen creationists here convince someone to become a Christian. Steering people away from Christianity, on the other hand...

 

[Jase]

Huh?

What does Eden have to do with the Flood, which came 1500 years later?

I believe the Ark was built in North America, where Noah lived, and came to rest on Mount Ararat after the Flood.

Eden was far from North America (even though they were on the same continent - [Pangaea, that is]).

How long did it take Pangea to break apart?

 

[Jase]

Wait... You honestly believe you are winning souls for Christ?

I don't think I've ever seen creationists here convince someone to become a Christian. Steering people away from Christianity, on the other hand...

I think fundamentalists of any type actually steer people away from God. If you know my history from IIDB, I used to be a "fundy" and thought I was doing good. But now when I visit sites like Rapture Ready, it literally makes me queezy how they can claim these things and think they are being Christian. Cheering over Israel bombing 60 civilians mostly kids, or claiming God completely defied every law of nature he created just to exterminate some animals, and of course worst of all, the western view of hell does not put Christianity in a good light. I find it hard to believe Christ would support how most fundamentalists act.

 

[JohnR7]

John, there are civilizations older than 13,000 years.

There maybe no clear distinction as to what civilization is. But there are a lot of clear distinctions as to what change took place at the end of the last ice age. Clearly one world came to an end and another world began. Just like the GAP theory says.

For example, 20,000 years ago you do see art. But they had very few colors: Black from their fire, Red that comes from iron in the clay and white that comes from chalk. At least that is what has lasted this long. There is a big contrast between this and the color they used later on when the stone age came to an end. One color Purple came from an organism in the sea and it was a very expaneive color that only rich people could afford. So purple became associated with Royality & Kings. Even having leaders for large groups of people is a product of civilization and the prymids we see around the world are a result of this leadership and people working together toward a common goal.

What do we see at the dawn of civilization? We see pottery that has been baked in ovens. we see tin and cooper mixed together to make brass and simple weapons as well as art and items for cooking. We see animals being domesticated and we see the beginning of farming and the beginning of cities. These things become clear markers so when they find them, we know what they are and they can date them.

More than anything else, we see more people living together in one place at one time. If you were looking for one thing, this would be it. Before civilization you have groups of 30 or less people. When they got bigger than this, they would split into two seperate groups. This is true for man and the animals.

After civilization you start to see groups of people living together of 300 or more people. Up to this day when you can have as many as 12 million people living together in one city. In Hong Kong they get as many as 7 or 8 million visitors in one years time.

There is a very clear distinction between pre civilization and civilizaton. Written language is just a part of it.

Right now Çatalhöyük, Turkey is considered to be one of the oldest cities that they have found.

 

[JohnR7]

Wait... You honestly believe you are winning souls for Christ?

I am not an evangelist. I leave soul winning up to them. I am just here to talk about science as it relates to evolution and creationism. My main focus would be to set up sunday school programs for kids here in American but mostly over seas on the mission field.

Needless to say when you are teaching the Bible to kids they are going to ask questions about things they are learning at school and in their science class. We need to be ready with an answer for their questions.

We do not try to convert people to our way of thinking. We seek to know God and we seek to know the mind of God. David of course was after the heart of God. That maybe even better then to seek after the wisdom of God like David's son Solomon did.