The Global Flood

[Jase]

I'd like to have a discussion about the alleged Global Flood and it's problems.

Now from what I understand and used to believe when I was a YEC, most creationists claim the flood occurred within the last 10,000 years. They also claim that all geological events were associated with it. That is things like mountain building, the separation of pangea, limestone calcification, magma cooling, asteroid impacts, valley formation, glacier formation, etc. etc.

Now I'm going to just look at one problem associated with all of this. That is the problem of heat. The detailed explanation can be found here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#flood

Let's just look at limestone calcification. Based on the amount of limestone found in the Earth's sediment and the amount of heat the process of calcification releases, if only 10% of the limestone on the Earth formed during the flood it would release 5.6 X 10^26 joules of energy. That's enough heat to boil all the flood waters.

Now we look at magma cooling. If the magma on the Earth all cooled from the flood waters, we get a heat release of 5.4 X 10^27 joules of heat, and this isn't counting the amount of heat given off by magma crystallization. That amount of joules of heat is enough to vaporize all the water on the Earth. This in turn would cause steam to rise, raising the air temperature to 1000 degrees Celsius. That's hot enough to boil off the atmosphere, which in turn would cause the rays of the sun to fry the surface of the Earth. If we still had an atmosphere, there would be so much heat contained by it, that it would make the Earth too hot to exist on. It takes millions of years to radiate that kind of heat with an atmosphere.

Now, I just referred to 2 events - magma cooling, and limestone calcification. I'd imagine when you throw in asteroid impacts, and continents colliding hard enough to raise the Earth 30,000 feet in less than a year, it would release enough energy to liquify the lithosphere.

Now remember, I'm just looking at the heat issue. There are certainly other problems to contend with. Now one has to ask how Noah survived such extreme temperatures. If G-d supernaturally protected him, what was the point of the Ark?

And of course, why would G-d go to such great lengths for this? He would literally be breaking every natural law he created in order to do this. Why liquify the entire Earth, making it uninhabitable for billions of years to come, even for the 8 people found righteous, just to kill off some localized biological beings? Doesn't that seem just a bit overkill? Confucius' famous line rings quite true here: "do not use cannon to kill mosquito".

G-d used the angel of death during Exodus. That would have been far more practical to do for the flood. The Bible never mentions G-d doing that many miracles to not only allow the earth and Noah and the animals to survive, but also to clean up the whole mess for after he gets off the ark, only to leave no remnants of the whole event.

Someone more knowledgable here may be able to give us an idea, but I'd imagine the heat released from all of those events, in order to fit the geological events within a year or less would be enough to disintegrate the entire planet. It doesn't seem necessary for G-d to go to those lengths. It just makes no sense.

Any thoughts and additions?

 

[JohnR7]

Any thoughts and additions?

Dr Wise says there is no scientific bases for a young earth or a world wide flood. If anyone wants to believe that, then their belief would be based on something other than science.

There is of course lots of scientific evidence that Noah's flood was local.

 

[tocis]

...Someone more knowledgable here may be able to give us an idea, but I'd imagine the heat released from all of those events, in order to fit the geological events within a year or less would be enough to disintegrate the entire planet. It doesn't seem necessary for G-d to go to those lengths. It just makes no sense.

Any thoughts and additions?

Everything about the Flood is totally, perfectly absurd. At least from the scientific point of view. All those attempts by creationists to make it sound reasonable or *cough cough* scientific don't work without eventually appealing to miracles too. In other words, there is no way to explain that mythical flood scientifically.
Now if the creationists would be content with their religious interpretation of the Flood, everything would be fine. They believe in their miracles and the others accept the best scientific explanations for the world today. But as at least some creationists are almost literally hell-bent to get their ideas taught in public schools' science classes, they desperately need to make it all appear scientific. Hence the reason for all this pseudo-scientific nonsense you find everywhere.
It all falls apart at near-lightspeed when examined critically. From my personal point of view there's hardly any better way to make yourself appear to be a fool than to claim that there's any scientific evidence for the noachic Flood.

I see that JohnR7 has already posted in this thread. He's on my ignore list (and for a good reason), but I trust in his posting you'll find examples aplenty of the pseudoscientific excuses creationists commonly need.

At times those neverending Flood "debates" are amusing. But in the end it's always sad to see that some people have so little faith that they desperately try to convince themselves of their beliefs being true.

Just my personal opinions of course. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I see that JohnR7 has already posted in this thread. He's on my ignore list (and for a good reason), but I trust in his posting you'll find examples aplenty of the pseudoscientific excuses creationists commonly need.

You are doing John an injustice here. He is a beliver in massive local flood. I don't doubt that the flood was local though I don't think it could have been as large as John claims but that should not be discussed on this thread to avoid going off topic.

F.B.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Dr Wise says there is no scientific bases for a young earth or a world wide flood. If anyone wants to believe that, then their belief would be based on something other than science.

Dr. Wise is right but that means that those who cling to a belief in a global flood should not call what they do creation science.

There is of course lots of scientific evidence that Noah's flood was local.

There is lots of evidence that it could not have been global. Evidence of local floods should probably not be discussed on this thread to avoid going off topic.

F.B.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Everything about the Flood is totally, perfectly absurd. At least from the scientific point of view. All those attempts by creationists to make it sound reasonable or *cough cough* scientific don't work without eventually appealing to miracles too. In other words, there is no way to explain that mythical flood scientifically.

That has been obvious for a long time. I put together a list of Falsifications of the Worldwide Flood that we had discussed on this board more than 2 years ago. I am sure there have been many others discussed since then.

F.B.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I'd like to have a discussion about the alleged Global Flood and it's problems.

Now from what I understand and used to believe when I was a YEC, most creationists claim the flood occurred within the last 10,000 years. They also claim that all geological events were associated with it. That is things like mountain building, the separation of pangea, limestone calcification, magma cooling, asteroid impacts, valley formation, glacier formation, etc. etc.

Now I'm going to just look at one problem associated with all of this. That is the problem of heat. The detailed explanation can be found here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#flood

Let's just look at limestone calcification. Based on the amount of limestone found in the Earth's sediment and the amount of heat the process of calcification releases, if only 10% of the limestone on the Earth formed during the flood it would release 5.6 X 10^26 joules of energy. That's enough heat to boil all the flood waters.

I need to send some feedback to T.O. 5.6 x 10^26 J is enough to heat the oceans to the boiling point but not enough to provide the latent heat of vaporization to boil them away. Still nothing could survive.

Now we look at magma cooling. If the magma on the Earth all cooled from the flood waters, we get a heat release of 5.4 X 10^27 joules of heat, and this isn't counting the amount of heat given off by magma crystallization. That amount of joules of heat is enough to vaporize all the water on the Earth.

Yep and the heat released by rapid continent movement is actually far more than that. I provided some calculations a while back on a thread called Catastrophic Plate Tectonics would have ended life on earth.

This in turn would cause steam to rise, raising the air temperature to 1000 degrees Celsius. That's hot enough to boil off the atmosphere, which in turn would cause the rays of the sun to fry the surface of the Earth. If we still had an atmosphere, there would be so much heat contained by it, that it would make the Earth too hot to exist on. It takes millions of years to radiate that kind of heat with an atmosphere.

Actually it would convert the atmosphere to high pressure steam. How long it takes to radiate the heat away into space through black body radiation depends on the amount of heat, the albedo of the steamed planet and the average surface temperature to the 4th power through the Stephan-Boltzmann law. I have some calculations somewhere if you want to see them.

Now, I just referred to 2 events - magma cooling, and limestone calcification. I'd imagine when you throw in asteroid impacts, and continents colliding hard enough to raise the Earth 30,000 feet in less than a year, it would release enough energy to liquify the lithosphere.

Actually it is necessary to melt the lithosphere to subduct seafloor and create new sea floor to move the continents. A lot of the heat that must be accounted for comes from the cooling and solidifying of the new lithosphere as the sea floor spreads. Over hundreds of millions of years it is not a problem. Over a few or even a few hundred years it is a big problem.

Now remember, I'm just looking at the heat issue. There are certainly other problems to contend with. Now one has to ask how Noah survived such extreme temperatures. If G-d supernaturally protected him, what was the point of the Ark?

Yes, the global flood is also falsified by geology, biogeography, archeology and paleontology to name a few but unfortunately that doesn't stop YECs from believing in it.

And of course, why would G-d go to such great lengths for this? He would literally be breaking every natural law he created in order to do this. Why liquify the entire Earth, making it uninhabitable for billions of years to come, even for the 8 people found righteous, just to kill off some localized biological beings? Doesn't that seem just a bit overkill? Confucius' famous line rings quite true here: "do not use cannon to kill mosquito".

G-d used the angel of death during Exodus. That would have been far more practical to do for the flood. The Bible never mentions G-d doing that many miracles to not only allow the earth and Noah and the animals to survive, but also to clean up the whole mess for after he gets off the ark, only to leave no remnants of the whole event.

Yes the apologetics of the global flood are pretty horrible but this is probably not the place to discuss them.

Someone more knowledgable here may be able to give us an idea, but I'd imagine the heat released from all of those events, in order to fit the geological events within a year or less would be enough to disintegrate the entire planet.

No but it would effectively sterilze the planet. Of course if one wants to cram in all the meteor strikes that must have hit the earth during the late heavy bombardment of the inner solar system (just look at the moon) then there is more than enough heat to liquify the earth's crust. That may have happened even with the bombardment spread over two hundred million years, let alone on a YEC version of the earth.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Beastt]

Dr Wise says there is no scientific bases for a young earth or a world wide flood. If anyone wants to believe that, then their belief would be based on something other than science.

There is of course lots of scientific evidence that Noah's flood was local.

But the whole point of the flood, as given by the Bible, was to wipe out all life on Earth, (save Noah, his family and cargo). Since this couldn't be accomplished with a local flood, the whole story becomes meaningless.

 

[JohnR7]

Dr. Wise is right but that means that those who cling to a belief in a global flood should not call what they do creation science.

Then science would quit being science, if you can not think "outside" of the box. Science is science when you can follow where the evidence leads you without being restricted or hindered by convention.

The goal of science is to come up with that new and better approach or that new and better way of doing things. They are always seeking for a better explaination then the one they already have.

 

[Beastt]

Then science would quit being science, if you can not think "outside" of the box. Science is science when you can follow where the evidence leads you without being restricted or hindered by convention.

The goal of science is to come up with that new and better approach or that new and better way of doing things. They are always seeking for a better explaination then the one they already have.

Science isn't a search for better methods. It is a search for better explanations of reality. It is not uncommon, however, that better explanations and more complete understanding of reality, can accomodate and facilitate better methods. This is illustrated in many ways, among them the use of evolutionary mechanics in the development of new medical treatments.

 

[Jase]

I need to send some feedback to T.O. 5.6 x 10^26 J is enough to heat the oceans to the boiling point but not enough to provide the latent heat of vaporization to boil them away. Still nothing could survive.

T.O. just said 5.6 x 10^26 is enough to boil the water. 5.4 x 10^27 is enough to vaporize it.

Actually it is necessary to melt the lithosphere to subduct seafloor and create new sea floor to move the continents. A lot of the heat that must be accounted for comes from the cooling and solidifying of the new lithosphere as the sea floor spreads. Over hundreds of millions of years it is not a problem. Over a few or even a few hundred years it is a big problem.

Oh, I know the oceanic lithosphere subducts under the continental lithosphere and melts during sea floor spreading. I meant more so the Continental lithosphere melting from those temperatures. I'm familiar with the process, just not the amount of heat released.

Yes the apologetics of the global flood are pretty horrible but this is probably not the place to discuss them.

Not really off topic. My intention was to get the views of YEC's who argue in defense of a Global flood. I guess not as many theists on this board believe it was global. I also do apologetics on Rapture Ready, and almost all of them accept it.

No but it would effectively sterilze the planet. Of course if one wants to cram in all the meteor strikes that must have hit the earth during the late heavy bombardment of the inner solar system (just look at the moon) then there is more than enough heat to liquify the earth's crust. That may have happened even with the bombardment spread over two hundred million years, let alone on a YEC version of the earth.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Do we know approximately how many major asteroid impacts have hit the Earth? I know a lot of craters have eroded over the years.

 

[AV1611VET]

My intention was to get the views of YEC's who argue in defense of a Global flood.

God believes in a global flood, why shouldn't I?

 

[caravelair]

God believes in a global flood, why shouldn't I?

no he doesn't.

 

[AV1611VET]

no he doesn't.

Oh, I'd say so ... He put it in writing.

That carries a lot of judicial weight.

 

[Jase]

Oh, I'd say so ... He put it in writing.

That carries a lot of judicial weight.

Since you seem to hold to a global flood ( and there is no evidence God held to one), care to explain my OP regarding the Heat?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

T.O. just said 5.6 x 10^26 is enough to boil the water. 5.4 x 10^27 is enough to vaporize it.

Actually 5.6 x 10^26 J is enough to heat all the water in all the oceans to the boiling point. It only takes an additional 3 x 10^27 J to boil it according to my calculations.

Oh, I know the oceanic lithosphere subducts under the continental lithosphere and melts during sea floor spreading. I meant more so the Continental lithosphere melting from those temperatures. I'm familiar with the process, just not the amount of heat released.

I don't think there is enough heat from rapid continent movement to melt the continental lithosphere but converting the entire atmosphere to high pressure steam is sufficient to kill off everything anyway.

Not really off topic. My intention was to get the views of YEC's who argue in defense of a Global flood. I guess not as many theists on this board believe it was global. I also do apologetics on Rapture Ready, and almost all of them accept it.

I have heard about that board. Isn't that Helen and Barry Setterfield? I used to debate them years ago on CARM.

Do we know approximately how many major asteroid impacts have hit the Earth? I know a lot of craters have eroded over the years.

There are two issues. The meteors whose craters still exist. They can mostly be found in the Earth Impact Database. New ones are being added all the time. I don't think the recently discovered crater in Egypt has been added yet for example.

Then there are those that must have hit the earth during the bombardment of the moon. Because the gravitational potential well of the earth is about 10x bigger than the moon even more would have hit earth.

From the article I linked earlier.

On Earth, the Late Heavy Bombardment would have produced:-

22,000 or more impact craters with diameters > 20 km

about 40 impact basins with diameters about 1000 km

Several impact basins with diameter about 5,000 km

Any of the bigger impacts would have been disaterous for life on earth but this happened before there was life on earth. The biggest of these events probably would have melted most of the continental lithosphere.

Added in edit: For a bit of perspective, the Chicxulub impact is estimated to have released about 100 million megatons of energy and is not the biggest known. When you add up just the known craters the result is energy equivalent to several hundred million 1 megaton hydrogen bombs. Now keep in mind that craters that formed in ocean basins more than 150 million years about will be gone through subduction and sea floor spreading and the earth is mostly ocean so we have only found a fraction of the impacts that must have occured even discounting those that fell during the lunar bombardment.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[caravelair]

Oh, I'd say so ... He put it in writing.

That carries a lot of judicial weight.

assuming god wrote the bible, which you cannot prove.

 

[JohnR7]

God believes in a global flood, why shouldn't I?

What makes you think that God believes in a global flood? What scriptures are we looking at here?

 

[JohnR7]

assuming god wrote the bible, which you cannot prove.

assuming God did not write the Bible, which you cannot prove.

 

[JohnR7]

Oh, I'd say so ... He put it in writing.

Actually He did more than just put it in writting. The word became flesh and walked among us. Jesus was a living, walking, talking example of the people that we are to be. God is doing a work in our lives so that we can follow the example that He set.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

We can be what the Bible says we can be. We can do what the Bible says we can do. The power of God can work though us to accomplish God's plan and purpose in us and through us.