The Gap and The Sumer Creation Myth

[DavidPT]

Jesus said if a many lusts in his heart for a woman, that in God's eyes that man has already committed the sin.

Likewise, Jesus said that if a man holds a malicious anger in his heart towards a brother? That man in his heart has committed murder.

How was Lucifer a "murderer" from the beginning? He said in his HEART that he would make himself to be like the Most High. That he would be the one to receive the worship of the angels...

That means what? In his heart? He ASSASSINATED the Lord and took his place on his throne! = Murderer from the beginning!

Why can't he instead be a murderer from the beginning, the fact his lies caused the death of mankind?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[GenemZ]

Why does satan need to fall twice? It's obvious as to why there has to be two comings of Christ. But why does that mean there has to also be two falls of satan?

Because right now he is having his appeal trial.

Why do think he asked the Lord for permission to have a go at with Job? He was out to prove and justify his own actions when he fell.

For when Lucifer rebelled the Lord was chastising Lucifer in hopes that he would repent and return. And?

For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.” Heb 12:6​

KEEP IN MIND! Angels are called "sons of God" before we were.

When God was making Lucifer to hurt to show Lucifer how he really was not as powerful as he was assuming he was? Lucifer CURSED THE LORD to his face! And, then refused to repent of doing so.

So... with Job? Lucifer postulates that if he is allowed to make Job suffer like the Lord made him to suffer? That Job would do the same thing and curse God to his face. Anyone would have done the same!

As we know. Satan lost his argument. Job refused to curse God. God was vindicated...

We are witnesses before men and angels in like manner. Those who curse God? God reveals their flaws and personal neglect, once more showing Satan and his angels that they made their beds, and now must sleep in it.

 

[GenemZ]

Why can't he instead be a murderer from the beginning, the fact his lies caused the death of mankind?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Satan was already a murderer when tempting the woman. He already wished the Lord dead as to take over his throne.

Satan was hoping the woman and man would eat and drop dead physically.

To his surprise and startlement both the woman and the man stayed physically alive. For on the day they ate they both died spiritually.

That is why today we need to be born again to regain the spiritual life God created man for.

grace and peace ......

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[RickReads]

Well, that is what Jesus told the rich young ruler to do. To get rid of all his money and give it to the poor. (Matthew 19:16-22)

The command was for the unique life for that rich young ruler. Some want to make it into a universal doctrine for all believers that the Lord has blessed with money. Can they offer someone like Jesus to teach them and follow after they give up all their financial security? Most teachers are not worth more than a few dollars today. Some are very good. Few only. For only a few will find it. Most will be on the broad and wide way to destruction....

Otherwise? There is nothing to debate on this issue. Common sense will take the reigns for whom it will apply.

I have a friend who went to an expensive Christian music concert. She told me about a homeless person who was resting just outside the entrance to the venue and the concert attendees completely ignored him as they went in and out. No one offered any help to him whatsoever.

A lot of the messages to young Christians today does little more than establish that good old sense of American entitlement; To be well off, comfortable, happy, full of self-love, deserving it, God wants you to be, God wants you to have etc etc etc.

I see Biblical contradiction in that and the trouble with having money is that people who are in need are never very far and it`s tricky to balance that with the needs of those, one is responsible for.

The verse I put up isn`t about making Joel Osteen rich. It`s about the people struggling to live that we all have not far from us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have a friend who went to an expensive Christian music concert. She told me about a homeless person who was resting just outside the entrance to the venue and the concert attendees completely ignored him as they went in and out. No one offered any help to him whatsoever.

A lot of the messages to young Christians today does little more than establish that good old sense of American entitlement; To be well off, comfortable, happy, full of self-love, deserving it, God wants you to be, God wants you to have etc etc etc.

I see Biblical contradiction in that and the trouble with having money is that people who are in need are never very far and it`s tricky to balance that with the needs of those, one is responsible for.

The verse I put up isn`t about making Joel Osteen rich. It`s about the people struggling to live that we all have not far from us.

That truly is scary. We are living in the last days indeed.

 

[sawdust]

This is all I have time to try and address for now.

As to John 8:44, I would think the beginning meant is meaning what is recorded in Genesis 3.

As to Ezekiel 28:15, assuming that is meaning satan(I'm not arguing that it is or isn't), what is recorded in Genesis 3 could be meaning when iniquity was found in him. After all, that's when God cursed the serprent, meaning satan. How many times does God need to curse satan? Only one time? Or more than one time? If the latter, does anyone have proof from other Scriptures that God cursed satan more than once, and when those other times were?

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the context of why I said what I said earlier. The fact remains than when Jesus said Satan was a murderer from "the beginning", He wasn't referring to the beginning of his existence. The context of my statement was "the beginning" of something is in relation to what is being discussed at the time. You were trying to argue with verses that referred to the beginning of man must automatically equate to the beginning of the universe but they are 2 different beginnings just as Satan's "beginning" is described twice. One beginning of his creation and one beginning of his fall.

The universe was created "in the beginning" which, is not a reference to time anyway and man was created an undetermined time later. The verses you quoted were in reference to the beginning of man not the universe.

 

[GenemZ]

Why can't he instead be a murderer from the beginning, the fact his lies caused the death of mankind?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Because that was not the "beginning." For Lucifer had rebelled against God before man was ever created.

 

[sawdust]

I am referring to how God defines in who is rich,

If we have a crazy over abundance of money we are showing that we love money

First you say it is God who defines who is rich and then you define who is rich. Should I listen to someone who says one thing then does another?

Anyways, the point I brought up had to do with James 2:5 in that God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith; This is a verse you do not believe because you believe the rich fat cat scholar is more rich in knowledge (the faith of the Bible) vs. the poor guy on the street with a Bible who is simple. This is why I don't accept the Gap Theorist viewpoint because it seeks to make it complicated in that you have to know the original languages in order to be a Gap Theorist.

Not a problem, you stick with your simple mindedness and I'll learn from those whom God appointed as pastor/teachers (Eph.4:11) who put in the hard yards by learning the languages, history, culture and systematic theology because they believe in studying the word (2Tim.2:15) as thoroughly as they can with all the resources available to them so they can bring the truth to us and in doing so edify the whole body.

"You cannot have epignosis without gnosis but you can have gnosis without epignosis."

 

[GenemZ]

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the context of why I said what I said earlier. The fact remains than when Jesus said Satan was a murderer from "the beginning", He wasn't referring to the beginning of his existence. The context of my statement was "the beginning" of something is in relation to what is being discussed at the time. You were trying to argue with verses that referred to the beginning of man must automatically equate to the beginning of the universe but they are 2 different beginnings just as Satan's "beginning" is described twice. One beginning of his creation and one beginning of his fall.

The universe was created "in the beginning" which, is not a reference to time anyway and man was created an undetermined time later. The verses you quoted were in reference to the beginning of man not the universe.

There are believers who have not been taught thoroughly in the Scriptures to be able to realize that the history found in the Bible does not revolve around man alone. That in a prehistoric world, angels were given dominion over their prehistoric creation just as Adam was given dominion over this present creation.

Believers need to learn that we are a parallel creation to the angels. That angels came first.

Has anyone noted?

Where in Genesis One do we find the creation of angels??? We only see man and animals being created. Coincidence?

Angels came first.... Created before man. Never mentioned in this creation as the source of their creation. They are "just there."

grace and peace ........

 

[GenemZ]

"You cannot have epignosis without gnosis but you can have gnosis without epignosis."

Translation...

"You cannot have epignosis (Bible knowledge living in your soul by means of the Spirit) without gnosis (simply memorized knowledge of Scripture) but you can have gnosis without epignosis." The Word can not be living in you unless you first memorize Scriptures you have been taught.

In other words...

You can memorize every verse in the Bible. But? If you are not empowered in your thinking by the filling of the Spirit? All you are going to be is a dead encyclopedic mind that can recall Scripture, but not live it.

Close enough?

... a little birdy told me!

 

[DavidPT]

Because that was not the "beginning." For Lucifer had rebelled against God before man was ever created.

Until man was on the earth who would satan have been lying to, and about what?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

In this passage Jesus is speaking to humans, Jews in this case.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I would think this part makes him a father---and between thy seed---but not in a literal sense where he procreated with someone.

Before man was created, what other children of the devil would Genesis 3:15 be meaning?


Also, until God started creating and forming, how could there have already been death, in any sense, the fact you can't murder anyone unless it involves death of that someone?

As to angels, as an example, who ever heard of an angel dying? That means the beginning meant in John 8:44 is meaning from the time death was possible. And the fact God apparently created angels immortal, and humans mortal, we can know the beginning meant is post creation day 6, not prior to creation day 1 instead.

 

[RickReads]

That truly is scary. We are living in the last days indeed.

It scares me to see you agree with me on something. The end is near. LOL!

 

[DavidPT]

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the context of why I said what I said earlier. The fact remains than when Jesus said Satan was a murderer from "the beginning", He wasn't referring to the beginning of his existence. The context of my statement was "the beginning" of something is in relation to what is being discussed at the time. You were trying to argue with verses that referred to the beginning of man must automatically equate to the beginning of the universe but they are 2 different beginnings just as Satan's "beginning" is described twice. One beginning of his creation and one beginning of his fall.

The universe was created "in the beginning" which, is not a reference to time anyway and man was created an undetermined time later. The verses you quoted were in reference to the beginning of man not the universe.

Since satan wasn't created a murderer, but that John 8:44 indicates he was a murderer from the beginning, the beginning has to be meaning when death was possible. But if he was already a murderer, in any sense, prior to the creation of man, who was it that he was the murderer of?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First you say it is God who defines who is rich and then you define who is rich. Should I listen to someone who says one thing then does another?

Words we read in the Bible have to make sense to how we know them in the real world. Otherwise the Bible would be an impossible thing to know because the words would be unknowlable. If you read a novel about a story about a rich man your first impression is that you would not picture a middle class guy who worked at a job and who has a couple of nice things. You would picture a guy who has a butler, and a super big mansion, and who did not really ever have to work again because he has so much money.

Some Christians I have known over the years play around with the word “rich” in wanting to redefine it because they themselves want to justify in wanting to have a lot of money someday (i.e. to be rich). However, what need is there of God if one's every need is met by money? The Lord Jesus was concerned with meeting our basic needs and not our wants. Yes, God can bless us financially, but this does not mean we would be rich exactly. A person may receive 5,000 dollars as a gift, but this would not make them rich exactly. Such normal amount of money could easily go to helping to fix their car or in paying a portion of their taxes, etc. It's expensive to just live these days. Sure somebody can be creative by trying to live on a lot less. But there is a great sacrifice of some kind that needs to be made. It does not mean one has to do so. Life is pretty busy as it is.

The rich believer is charged this.

“Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.” (1 Timothy 6:17-19).

The rich believer is said to be rich in good works, ready to distribute and laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come that they MAY lay hold on eternal life. Meaning, they don't have eternal life because they need to distribute the over abundance of their wealth to the body of Christ whereby all things are equal.

Not a problem, you stick with your simple mindedness and I'll learn from those whom God appointed as pastor/teachers (Eph.4:11) who put in the hard yards by learning the languages, history, culture and systematic theology because they believe in studying the word (2Tim.2:15) as thoroughly as they can with all the resources available to them so they can bring the truth to us and in doing so edify the whole body.

I believe there are pastors and teachers, but they are not as easily accessible like the early church days. I believe we are living in the last days as per 1 Timothy 6:3-4. It speaks also of Psalms 119:99 that says: “I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.”

"You cannot have epignosis without gnosis but you can have gnosis without epignosis."

Right, I believe I have the correct knowledge of God's Word and the Lord because I just simply read His Word (the KJB) and believe it. The Modern Translations and or the OAO (Original Autograph Only) camp of thinking seeks to constantly make one's own Word of God instead of just believing God already has a perfect and pure Word for us to believe and obey today. I don't have to correct or fix God's Word. it does not need to be fixed. God's Word is already perfect. I do not need to join some secret Theology Club and learn a special dead language in order to understand the mysteries of God's Word. 1 John 2:27 says: “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

Isaiah 34:16 says: “Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”

I believe this applies today. I can seek out the book of the Lord and read it and believe it. But in the OAO camp, this cannot be so. I have to create my own Word of God in what I think it says or what the Theologians Club says.

 

[sawdust]

Translation...

"You cannot have epignosis (Bible knowledge living in your soul by means of the Spirit) without gnosis (simply memorized knowledge of Scripture) but you can have gnosis without epignosis." The Word can not be living in you unless you first memorize Scriptures you have been taught.

In other words...

You can memorize every verse in the Bible. But? If you are not empowered in your thinking by the filling of the Spirit? All you are going to be is a dead encyclopedic mind that can recall Scripture, but not live it.

Close enough?

... a little birdy told me!

Hope that "little birdy" didn't go to Bible College and get his head filled with knowledge so as to no longer be a "birdbrain".

 

[sawdust]

Since satan wasn't created a murderer, but that John 8:44 indicates he was a murderer from the beginning, the beginning has to be meaning when death was possible. But if he was already a murderer, in any sense, prior to the creation of man, who was it that he was the murderer of?

He wanted to murder God. You are not a murderer because you kill someone, you are a murderer because of what you hold (value) in your heart. You are what you think, not what you do. What we see people do can be a deception. This is why Jesus told us not to judge because we can only see the surface of what is going on with a person but the Lord can see the complete picture.

Prov.23:7a
For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Lucifer said in his heart he wanted to replace God. He wasn't simply looking to set up in competition with God, he wanted God out of the picture. That effectively is murder for Jesus explained in Matt.5 that the sins we commit begin in what we think.

So to say death has to be possible is a false argument. Lucifer only had to think in terms of death to fall from grace hence being a murderer from the beginning means from the time Lucifer wanted God dead. Obviously that is something that could not occur.

 

[GenemZ]

Until man was on the earth who would satan have been lying to, and about what?

He would be lying to the angels, telling them they would be better off taking orders from him instead of the Lord.

Think about it... There had to be a "choosing time" for one third of the angels to side with Lucifer.

Choose you today whom will you serve?

 

[GenemZ]

Hope that "little birdy" didn't go to Bible College and get his head filled with knowledge so as to no longer be a "birdbrain".

shucks.. It was nothing to crow about.

 

[Davy]

Jeremiah quoted Genesis 1:2 to show the degenerate evil Jews what destruction they were heading for. It means hardly "empty and void." It was designed to try to strike fear in their hearts. And, those Jews knew Hebrew. "Utter destruction, topsy turvy chaos."

If Jeremiah warned them in "King James-ese" they would have probably laughed.

Of course God repeated the tohuw va bohuw idea to the rebellious Jews in Jeremiah's day to show what was coming via the king of Babylon, which I already mentioned that. But that tohuw va bohuw does not mean a gaseous vacuum nothing existence like there was nothing there; and it is silly to assume that with God's example there in Jeremiah 4, especially since He gave that about an 'existing' state of things going into corruption, which is how the Hebrew tohuw is most often used in The Old Testament.