The Gap and The Sumer Creation Myth

[GenemZ]

I am not sure I would call it correction. In 1847, Thomas Chalmers is the first on record to propose the Gap Theory. In 1850, is when Charles Darwin published his book on Evolution. However, Evolution was already in existence before Darwin published his book. So does this mean there was no way for Thomas Chalmers to not know of Evolution or an Old Earth? No. It is very possible that Thomas Chalmers knew of Evolution and an Old Earth outside of Darwin's book, and Chalmers liked the idea of an Old Earth before even looking at the verses.

Thomas Chalmers was not the first. He studied older scholars. Much older. It was even found in ancient rabbinical teaching.

Not to mention... Origen (c. 184 – c. 253) who was not a contemporary of Darwin!

Many Bible scholars used to be perplexed, but could not deny, the GAP expressed (in the Hebrew) concerning Genesis 1:2.


Here! Read it for yourself - Without Form and Void - Chapter 1

 

[sawdust]

In 1847, Thomas Chalmers is the first on record to propose the Gap Theory.

As I pointed out to you in post #56, the gap between Gen1:1 and Gen 1:2 was taught long before then.

You can ignore history if you want but you would be throwing away a method even the Lord God Himself uses to teach his people. He quite often tells His people to remember the past so they don't repeat the same mistakes in the present. As the saying goes, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thomas Chalmers was not the first. He studied older scholars. Much older. It was even found in ancient rabbinical teaching.

Not to mention... Origen (c. 184 – c. 253) who was not a contemporary of Darwin!

Many Bible scholars used to be perplexed, but could not deny, the GAP expressed (in the Hebrew) concerning Genesis 1:2.


Here! Read it for yourself - Without Form and Void - Chapter 1

Well, I wouldn't deny the possibility that the belief could have existed prior. It could be that they held to some form of a Gap view. The most reliable source in the Gap Theory being officially taught clearly began with Thomas Chalmers. Assumptions are made off of previous theologians in what they said, and some of the sources are not reliable. In either case, it does not really matter if the belief is older than Thomas Chalmers or not. A belief is true or false has no bearing in regards to time. False beliefs existed even during the Old Testament times. In the Old Testament, the Gentiles said there was no God. So naturally they would have held to a belief that the Earth was old and not young like today. Their view of Science would have ran contrary to a normal reading on the Genesis account and the genealogy of Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I pointed out to you in post #56, the gap between Gen1:1 and Gen 1:2 was taught long before then.

You can ignore history if you want but you would be throwing away a method even the Lord God Himself uses to teach his people. He quite often tells His people to remember the past so they don't repeat the same mistakes in the present. As the saying goes, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

What disadvantage do I have in not believing in the Gap Theory? It's not even clearly taught in the Bible. It's just an added fanciful imaginative interpretation on a few select verses by looking to the Biblical Hebrew (when a person today does not really know Biblical Hebrew).

If anything the disadvantage I see in believing the Gap Theory is that it aligns more with the secular Science worldview in that the Earth is old. Thus, it bridges the gap more with worldly Science and in being in favor with them. It uplifts worldly scientists instead of uplifting the Word of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here again are my...

Points Against A Gap Theory:

#1. No actual clear verses or passage describing a world destroyed before the 6 day creation.
For a person reading Scripture normally will not really know about the Gap Theory. It's an idea given by others and then it is inserted into Scripture. We do not see any clear words in the Bible saying things like, “...and before the six days God created the Earth, the Earth stood once before, but it was destroyed and judged by the Lord.” But nothing is even remotely said like this in Scripture. Not even a hint of anything written like: “Before Adam, the world before was judged.” So the Gap is not clearly described in the Bible. In fact, I believe it falls dangerously close to adding to God's Word (Revelation 22:18).

#2. The repetitive unique sentence structure of Genesis 1-2 lets us know the Gap Theory is not true.
For example: There is...

(a) The unique sentence structure of Genesis 1:1 gives us a brief summary about what is about to happen with the rest of the chapter (Genesis 1) giving us the details.

(b) The unique sentence structure of Genesis 1:26-27 (The creation of male and femaile on Day 6) is a brief summary of the details described in Genesis chapter 2.​

#3. Jesus refers to “the beginning” in Matthew 19:4-5 as being tied to Genesis 2:24. For Jesus says, “a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh” (Matthew 19:5). This phrase is also found in Genesis 2:24, and Jesus ties this phrase in being in the beginning in Matthew 19:4 by saying, “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,”; Gap Theorists will have us believe that “In the beginning happened much earlier.

#5. Death came about by one man's sin (Romans 5:12) (Which is clearly referring to Adam). So there was no sin and death as originating on some other past Earth that is no more.

#6. The originality of things mentioned in the early part of Genesis.

(a) The naming of woman because she was taking out of the man sounds like an original or beginning point of creation and it does not sound like God is doing this all over again (See: Genesis 2:21-23).

(b) God regretted that he made man, and he makes no mention of any past world that was inhabited by men or angels having been destroyed. This would have been a key point to bring this up seeing God is about to destroy the whole world with a global flood (See: Genesis 6).
​

#7. The use of the term 'very good' to describe the created Earth in Genesis 1:31 appears to be unwarranted if it had already once been the world of Lucifer and the graveyard of millions of creatures.

​

I hope this helps, my friends.

 

[GenemZ]

Well, I wouldn't deny the possibility that the belief could have existed prior. It could be that they held to some form of a Gap view.

How long can you hold your breath?

Let's find out.

How long can you ignore what has been recorded history in the body of believers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How long can you hold your breath?

Let's find out.

Not sure of the revelance of that statement in relation to this topic. I believe the Gap Theory cannot be supported by a normal reading of the Bible in the English. I don't believe God offered unique Theology that was different in the Biblical Hebrew vs. the world language of today. James says God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. The poor of this world would not be fat cat scholars but they would be men like a Peter, who was a simple fisherman, etc.

 

[sawdust]

What disadvantage do I have in not believing in the Gap Theory? It's not even clearly taught in the Bible. It's just an added fanciful imaginative interpretation on a few select verses by looking to the Biblical Hebrew (when a person today does not really know Biblical Hebrew).

If anything the disadvantage I see in believing the Gap Theory is that it aligns more with the secular Science worldview in that the Earth is old. Thus, it bridges the gap more with worldly Science and in being in favor with them. It uplifts worldly scientists instead of uplifting the Word of God.

What disadvantage do you have in not having an accurate understanding of the word of God? I think you know the answer to that.

And as I pointed out before, my understanding of there being a gap is based on studying the word, not based on science. Anyone reading through this thread will see that those of us here who hold to a gap have not raised one single scientific fact as proof of our position but rather have based it on understanding word usage within the scriptures.

You are free to continue making these assumptions but you have now been told twice it has nothing to do with Darwin, evolution or geology (or any other scientific understanding) so if you were to repeat it a third time, it would be more indicative of your unwillingness to be corrected than it is of our motivations to believe in a gap.

 

[sawdust]

The poor of this world would not be fat cat scholars but they would be men like a Peter, who was a simple fisherman, etc.

The irony there is He also chose a theologian, who may well prove to be the greatest theological mind of his time, in Paul to bring the gospel to the Gentiles.

It is not only the poor who prosper under God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What disadvantage do you have in not having an accurate understanding of the word of God? I think you know the answer to that.

And as I pointed out before, my understanding of there being a gap is based on studying the word, not based on science. Anyone reading through this thread will see that those of us here who hold to a gap have not raised one single scientific fact as proof of our position but rather have based it on understanding word usage within the scriptures.

You are free to continue making these assumptions but you have now been told twice it has nothing to do with Darwin, evolution or geology (or any other scientific understanding) so if you were to repeat it a third time, it would be more indicative of your unwillingness to be corrected than it is of our motivations to believe in a gap.

I know Gap Theorists do not believe in Evolution. But I bring up Darwin because he also believed in an Old Earth (Which is something you also believe in). I just do not think a child like reading of Genesis 1 would bear out a Gap Theory. It's like some kind of extra secret club type information that only the elite who truly study the Biblical Hebrew can have. Sorry, I just do not buy into it based on a normal reading of Scripture. I have created seven points in Scripture that refute a Gap Theory viewpoint.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The irony there is He also chose a theologian, who may well prove to be the greatest theological mind of his time, in Paul to bring the gospel to the Gentiles.

It is not only the poor who prosper under God.

Then how do you believe James 2:5 that says this?

“Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?” (James 2:5).

James goes on to say:

“Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?” (James 2:6-7).

 

[sawdust]

Then how do you believe James 2:5 that says this?

“Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?” (James 2:5).

James goes on to say:

“Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?” (James 2:6-7).

I don't ignore everything else in scripture to make it so only poor people can have faith which seems to be what you want to do. Joseph wasn't poor but he had faith.

Matt.27:57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Someone on another thread raised the question if the Genesis 1 creation is literal, or .... earth which caused God to bring a flood of waters upon it at Genesis 1:2.

"Before time began there was only darkness and the goddess Nammu, the Primordial Sea. She gave birth to Anki, the Universe- at first they were Heaven and Earth in one, a vast mountain of soil and sky mixed together. Anki produced Enlil, the air. Enlil separated his parents into An, the sky and Ki the mother earth. He pulled his mother down to form solid ground and pushed his father up to form the heavens. He then created the moon god Nanna, who then created the sun god Utu. Enlil and Ki, air and earth joined to produce Enki, the god of water, vegetation and wisdom, and the lord of the universe. Enki gathered together part of the Primordial Sea and squeezed it into rivers Tigris and Euphrates. He caused there to be cattle on the earth and fish in the rivers. He built marshland around the rivers and made the soil rich and fertile. Meanwhile in heaven, the gods were having a large, drunken banquet. They decided to create humans. The first race was made of clay, and weak in body and mind. At the time everyone was too drunk to see how poorly they were made. The humans descended to live on Enki’s earth. Before long it became clear that this race had too many problems to survive and be a credit to the gods who created them. The gods decided to destroy them all in a great flood. Only two people were worthy enough to survive- a man named Ziusudra and his wife. Enki came to them with instructions. They were to build a wooden ark and hide there until the flood waters subsided. The gods redirected the Tigris and Euphrates and caused a violent flood, washing all the humans to their deaths. The storms raged day and night until there was no dry land. Ziusudra and his wife were safe in their wooden ark. They wept at the loss of mankind. Finally the rivers shrank back and the land around them re-emerged. Ziusudra and his wife began a new generation of men and women and set up their villages on the shores of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The Big MythTM © 2011 Distant T"
http://www.bigmyth.com/download/SUMERIAN_CREATION.pdf

I do not see any connections.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't ignore everything else in scripture to make it so only poor people can have faith which seems to be what you want to do. Joseph wasn't poor but he had faith.

Matt.27:57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus.

Was he a former rich man? Did he sell all his riches and give them to the poor or give up half of his goods to the poor to follow Jesus? 1 Timothy 6:17-19 gives us the instructions in regards to those believers who are rich. 1 Timothy 6:9-12 tells the man of God to flee chasing after riches and to chase after godliness instead. Also, the truth in James 2:5 does not change. There has to be a way that verse is still true. How exactly does such a verse work in your belief?

 

[GenemZ]

Not sure of the revelance of that statement in relation to this topic. I believe the Gap Theory cannot be supported by a normal reading of the Bible in the English. I don't believe God offered unique Theology that was different in the Biblical Hebrew vs. the world language of today.

You have me feeling pain on the inside...

How can you be serious in claiming that all translations are accurate in all they contain? That statement is you declaring that all translations are equal.

 

[GenemZ]

Was he a former rich man? Did he sell all his riches and give them to the poor or give up half of his goods to the poor to follow Jesus?

That command was not for all. No more than what Jesus said to the prostitute.

The rich young ruler was using his luxury of not having to labor for a living to seek out religious works to do to secure eternal life. He was using his riches as a means to find salvation. Jesus was telling him that his riches can not save him. That he should follow Jesus if he truly seeks eternal life.

On the other hand, the people in Corinth were filthy rich. No one in Corinth was being told to do what the rich young ruler was told.

......

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have me feeling pain on the inside...

How can you be serious in claiming that all translations are accurate in all they contain? That statement is you declaring that all translations are equal.

Because of faith in Psalms 12:6-7 in the KJB (a.k.a. Divine Preservation). It says in verse 6: “The words of the LORD are pure words:” and verse 7 says: “Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Remember, the parable of the sower? The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11). The sower is the Son of Man (Matthew 13:37). But whenever we do not believe a particular verse in Scripture (i.e. the Word of God), the enemy takes away that which was sown in our heart, and it will be as if that verse or passage does not even exist for us. Modern Translations changed Psalms 12:6-7 to say something else than what it says. For hundreds of years, Christians used the KJB and they would have understood this interpretation and not the Modern Translation version. They understood that God would preserve His words and that they are PURE words. You are saying that the words of the Lord (or words in the KJB) are not pure words. Yet, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine. Doctrine.... like the doctrine of Divine Preservation (Which you do not believe).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That command was not for all. No more than what Jesus said to the prostitute.

The rich young ruler was using his luxury of not having to labor for a living to seek out religious works to do to secure eternal life. He was using his riches as a means to find salvation. Jesus was telling him that his riches can not save him. That he should follow Jesus if he truly seeks eternal life.

I believe it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven as Jesus said (See: Matthew 19:23). In the young rich ruler's case (in Matthew 19), it was really bad and so he needed to in his case give them all up and sell them to the poor in order to follow Jesus (Which related to salvation). In Luke 19:1-10: Zacchaeus was only willing to give away half of his goods to the poor and repay any man four times he took by them by false accusation and yet Jesus said salvation had come to His house. So being rich is by a case by case basis. But both Jesus and 1 Timothy 6 condemns in being rich (as we understand it). For example: A rich person does not technically have to work ever again because they are excessively rich and they do not need to worry about money or finances because they have enough to pay for their excessive lifestyle. In fact, we find in Luke 16 that the rich man went to hell and Lazarus (the poor guy at his gates) was in Abraham's bosom.

On the other hand, the people in Corinth were filthy rich. No one in Corinth was being told to do what the rich young ruler was told.

......

What verse or passage says that the Corinthian believers were filthy rich and yet they were still saved?

 

[sawdust]

So being rich is by a case by case basis.

Precisely. Having wealth is not a sin in and of itself. We are warned against depending on our wealth or using it to the detriment of others but we are never told we can't have it. It is the love of money that is the problem not simply having money. The poor can be just as greedy as the rich. King David was very wealthy.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter as it is off topic. You want to start a thread on why only poor people can have faith, go right ahead.

 

[RickReads]

Precisely. Having wealth is not a sin in and of itself. We are warned against depending on our wealth or using it to the detriment of others but we are never told we can't have it. It is the love of money that is the problem not simply having money. The poor can be just as greedy as the rich. King David was very wealthy.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter as it is off topic. You want to start a thread on why only poor people can have faith, go right ahead.

"But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?"