• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

The Gap and The Sumer Creation Myth

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Davy, May 1, 2021.

  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,591
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    No, all you've done is agree with those who agree with you.

    Prove a rebuttal by explaining how a solid object (earth) can be formless.

    And then show the thread where in Genesis 1 that God shaped or formed this formless object.

    That would be a rebuttal. You've done nothing of the sort.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    To all:

    Folks can see that I have brought forth new information as my own rebuttals in
    post #114, and post #115. So let that be as a testimony to those who would say so otherwise.

    Anyways, some Gap Theorists try to suggest that the word “replenish” in the KJB is proof of the Gap. However, the word “replenish” can have different meanings.

    Webster's 1913 Dictionary defines it also as “to finish; to complete; to perfect,” as well.

    [​IMG]

    Source:
    Replenish | Definition of Replenish by Webster's Online Dictionary

    At an Etymology website (i.e. a source on the origin of words),
    we read that replenish in the mid 14 century (mid 1500's) meant to... “fill up.”

    [​IMG]

    Source:
    replenish | Origin and meaning of replenish by Online Etymology Dictionary

    So the word “replenish” had a different meaning back in the 1600's than it does today.

    In fact, this is not the only words that are like this. There are plenty of archaic words in the King James Bible. They are true words, but they meant something different back in the 1600's vs. today. For people did not speak and write exactly the same way as we do today. In fact, versions before the KJB like the Geneva Bible, and the Tyndale Bibles used the word “fill.” That's because they are saying the same thing in this particular instance. For the word “replenish” meant: “to fill up.”
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Points Against A Gap Theory:

    #1. No actual clear verses or passage describing a world destroyed before the 6 day creation.
    For a person reading Scripture normally will not really know about the Gap Theory. It's an idea given by others and then it is inserted into Scripture. We do not see any clear words in the Bible saying things like, “...and before the six days God created the Earth, the Earth stood once before, but it was destroyed and judged by the Lord.” But nothing is even remotely said like this in Scripture. Not even a hint of anything written like: “Before Adam, the world before was judged.” So the Gap is not clearly described in the Bible. In fact, I believe it falls dangerously close to adding to God's Word (Revelation 22:18).

    #2. The repetitive unique sentence structure of Genesis 1-2 lets us know the Gap Theory is not true.
    For example: There is...

    (a) The unique sentence structure of Genesis 1:1 gives us a brief summary about what is about to happen with the rest of the chapter (Genesis 1) giving us the details.

    (b) The unique sentence structure of Genesis 1:26-27 (The creation of male and femaile on Day 6) is a brief summary of the details described in Genesis chapter 2.​

    #3. Jesus refers to “the beginning” in Matthew 19:4-5 as being tied to Genesis 2:24. For Jesus says, “a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh” (Matthew 19:5). This phrase is also found in Genesis 2:24, and Jesus ties this phrase in being in the beginning in Matthew 19:4 by saying, “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,”; Gap Theorists will have us believe that “In the beginning happened much earlier.

    #5. Death came about by one man's sin (Romans 5:12) (Which is clearly referring to Adam). So there was no sin and death as originating on some other past Earth that is no more.

    #6. The originality of things mentioned in the early part of Genesis.

    (a) The naming of woman because she was taking out of the man sounds like an original or beginning point of creation and it does not sound like God is doing this all over again (See: Genesis 2:21-23).

    (b) God regretted that he made man, and he makes no mention of any past world that was inhabited by men or angels having been destroyed. This would have been a key point to bring this up seeing God is about to destroy the whole world with a global flood (See: Genesis 6).
    #7. The use of the term 'very good' to describe the created Earth in Genesis 1:31 appears to be unwarranted if it had already once been the world of Lucifer and the graveyard of millions of creatures.

    I hope this helps, my friends.
    My God bless you all.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  4. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

    +503
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Divorced
    I believe God provided the light.

    Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
     
  5. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

    +329
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    I agree with you completely on that point. Now apply your own logic to that statement. If Jeremiah used the phrase to show the results of destruction from God's judgement, what must it necessarily mean in Genesis. :)

    How can Satan be a murderer from the beginning if he was created perfect in all his ways?

    Eze.28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
    Till iniquity was found in you.

    Jn.8:44 He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

    The restoration that occurred from Gen1:2 onwards was a beginning for man. The word beginning doesn't always have to mean the very first instance of something in relation to all things, only in relation to it's context. In the verses you quoted the context is always in relation to the creation of man but we weren't the first of God's creation. We know there is a whole history of the Lord dealing with angels that we only get the merest glimpse into. Part of the reason we were created and given dominion of the Earth was to resolve the angelic conflict. Angels get to see first hand when they look at us why the Lord is right and Lucifer is wrong.

    It has been said the gap can't be there because it doesn't say clearly enough there is one but you can't build arguments from what is not there. Why doesn't it say the angels sang for joy in Genesis 1 when God created everything or even mention their creation? One would think that would be the logical place to put it if the whole first chapter of Genesis is really about the creation of all things.

    Even if you disagree with everything else I have said, there is one thing you should understand. I believe there is a gap because of the language used and the use of the same/similar language elsewhere in scripture. It has absolutely nothing to do with the age of the Earth so please don't use that argument as it has no bearing on my thinking. I have no idea how old the Earth is and I don't believe science really knows either. Thanks. :)

    ps. I hope you both don't mind me answering in the single post.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am glad we can agree on something.

    The time of the beginning is marked by the Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 19:4-5. Verse 4 (Matthew 19:4) where our Lord mentions “at the beginning made them male and female” is a reference in Genesis 1:27. Verse 5 (Matthew 19:5) where our Lord mentions “leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh” is a reference to Genesis 2:24. Jesus refers to the creation of male and female on day 6 in Genesis 1:27, and the cleaving to one's wife and becoming one flesh in Genesis 2:24 as being... “at the beginning.” So any point of the 6 day creation is the beginning (Which is Genesis 1-2).

    In Psalms 104: I believe the creation of angels takes place on day 2 of the six day creation week.

    Day 1 - “Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment:” (Psalms 104:2).
    Day 1 - “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good:” (Genesis 1:3-4).

    Day 2 - “who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:” (Psalms 104:2).
    Day 2 - “And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven.” (Genesis 1:7-8).
    Day 2 - “Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:” (Psalms 104:4).

    Day 3 - “Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.” (Psalms 104:5).
    Day 3 - “And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth;” (Genesis 1:9-10).
    Day 3 - “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?” (Job 38:4).
    “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:7).
     
  7. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

    +329
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    So you're saying you finally recognise 'without form and void' (Gen.1:2) is the result of judgement? It is how Jeremiah uses it and by your own statement you said what follows in scripture repeats the original ergo .... :)
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Nope. I am not saying that. You are saying that. I am only in agreement with you that Jeremiah is talking about a future judgment; However, where we are in diagreement on is the phrase “without form and void” in Genesis 1:2. I believe this phrase is not attached with any context of judgment in Genesis 1. Jeremiah simply borrows a previous non-judgment type phrase as language to to tie into a future judgment to give us a more clearer picture of how things will be like “nothing” before Christ sets up the Millennial Kingdom. The phrase “without form and void” is simply a phrase that can mean “nothing.” It does not mean Jeremiah is saying that what happened in Genesis 1:2 was a judgment. That's not what Jeremiah said. If Jeremiah wanted to make that fact clear, he would have to say something like, “When the Earth was without form and void before the laying of the foundations in the beginning, God judged that previous world and He will do so again with the Day of the Lord.” (Jeremiah Gap Theory Influenced Translation). But Jeremiah does not say this. He simply uses a phase associated with nothingness. That's it. There is no more reason to read it anymore beyond that unless one wants to prove something in the Bible that is not there.

    For the Jews made the mistake of misinterpreting the OT verses on the coming Messiah. They thought the Scriptures were saying that the Messiah was going to come back as a reigning King, but He actually came back first as a Savior. Later, Jesus will come back (a second time) as a reigning King so as to establish His Kingdom. But they no doubt were reading the Scriptures wrong, as I believe Gap Theorists do.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  9. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

    +329
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    He didn't have to say anything of the sort. Many of us can see what Gen.1:2 means by looking at how the words are used elsewhere in scripture and as the Jeremiah passage uses the exact same terminology it becomes the perfect source of understanding. It is quite clear what Jeremiah is saying in Chapter 4.

    v. 22 Describes the state of the nation at the time. Jeremiah has been pleading/warning them to wake up and change their ways or they will come under judgement.

    “For My people are foolish,
    They have not known Me.
    They are silly children,
    And they have no understanding.
    They are wise to do evil,
    But to do good they have no knowledge.”


    v. 23 -26a Reveals a state of the earth in which the land is not how Jeremiah has ever known it. It is empty and wasted. He looked up to the heavens and could see no light. (which is exactly as it would be if a catastrophe rendered the atmosphere thick with debris). The mountains and hills shook and trembled. (the mention of hills and mountains shows the earth is not "without form" as if it is some giant gas ball or floating debris yet to be pulled together, it has some structure) He can see no birds, no plants , no cities. (note: he doesn't say there is no planet ;) )

    23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
    And the heavens, they had no light.
    24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
    And all the hills moved back and forth.
    25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
    And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
    26a I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
    And all its cities were broken down


    v.26b Reveals the reason why the earth is in this state.

    26b At the presence of the Lord,
    By His fierce anger.


    By your own admission you stated:

    If the meaning of the later phrase "without form and void" is the result of Gods wrath then by your own words the beginning phrase must mean the same.

    Even if you are correct and Jeremiah is witnessing a future event, one between the beginning of the Millennium and the destruction of the nations, the meaning is still exactly the same. The earth is without form and void because the Lord has just judged the nations and everything that follows would be a restoration of the earth so the remaining believers can continue residing on the Earth.

    To keep on saying Jeremiah should have said "this" or Genesis should have said "that" is an insult to God and His ability to create a brain that can think for itself for many believers throughout history have seen Genesis 1:2 "without form and void" as the result of God's fierce anger. It is not some new theory as some would try to propose not is it connected to Darwin or evolution. It is what is written.

    At the end of the day, The lord will judge who is correct and who isn't. I have said all I have to say on the matter.

    Grace and peace to you. :)
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I only agreed with what I stated and not with anything you stated. So you can let go of any false pretense that I agree with any false Gap Theory. I also don't think it is fruitful to continue this point of discussion. Your argument is not convincing enough with the substance of actual Scripture to give any weight to the Gap Theory. For me, it is wrong to build an entire narrative based on a phrase that could easily mean something else. The Gap Theory is not clearly referred to in Scripture in the slightest sense. No actual verse or passage clearly spells out the Gap Theory. In my view, believing in the Gap Theory falls dangerously close to adding to God's Word (Revelation 22:18). So why would I want to do that? Why would I want the plagues that are within the Bible to be upon me? Is it really worth believing in the Gap Theory? No, it is not. It's not even clearly mentioned in Scripture. So why on Earth do people believe in it is beyond me. But you are free to take the risk in believing in it. I only see it as being bad. So your not going to convince me because there is no verse that speaks of it clearly.

    Good day to you in the Lord, and lets agree to disagree.
     
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,591
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution

    The YEC always point to the fact that the Bible says sin entered the world through Adam. And "from the beginning" seems to always refer to Gen 1 as "the beginning".

    Yes, 1:1 is the beginning of the heavens and earth, for sure. But when we consider human sin, "from the beginning" starts from Adam. Not whatever may have occurred before that.

    We know that Satan is the first sinner. Ezek 28:15 is clearly referring to Satan. Not even the human "king of Tyre" was perfect, or "created". In fact, only Adam and Eve were created. From them came the human race, procreated. That is different.

    So, we need to understand "from the beginning" refers to Adam's sin. That doesn't mean there wasn't sin on earth BEFORE Adam was created.

    Again, God hasn't told us what happened on earth before He restored it.

    Amen!


    The YEC say that while either ignoring or actively rejecting what the key Hebrew words actually mean. When one gets to that level of understanding, the Bible is very clear that the earth became something that it was not at creation (v.1) and God therefore restored it. Heb 11:3 uses the exact same word rendered "formed/framed/etc" that is found in Gal 6:1 which is correctly translated "restore", and the 2 times it is found in the gospels of the disciples mending their nets.

    The words "restore" and "mend" are synonymous. As well, fix, repair, etc.

    Well said.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I updated my post that refutes a Gap Theory in post #123 to add one more point.
     
  13. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

    +2,033
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Constitution
    Who told you that? Its not true at all.

    Long before Darwin was born the GAP was understood by Bible scholars, both Jewish and Christian. They simply noted it and did not know what to make of it. For science had not yet shown the reason as to its meaning at that time in history.

    It was only later on after secular scientists took their offensive move, that their contemporaries dug in and rediscovered the older teachings concerning the GAP. Interest in the GAP was "renewed." Not invented as you claim.

    Many are ignorant of the history of scholars seeing what Genesis 1:2 speaks of as recorded by antecedent scholarship.

    Its amazing what many don't know yet.
     
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    +829
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Men refusing to believe God's Word as written is a different matter than trying to imply a thing isn't written. The Gap idea is written, but it's simply not in direct language. In the Hebrew it is much clearer, because in Genesis 1:2 it says the earth 'became' a waste (tohuw). And in Isaiah 45:18 God said that He did not create the earth 'tohuw' (translated as "in vain" in the KJV). That means the earth in a previous good state went to a ruined condition, not the earth in a gaseous nebula non-created state.

    Likewise with Jeremiah 4:23-28, it is describing a destruction upon the earth because of God's fierce anger, using the same idea as in Genesis 1:2 tohuw va bohuw ("without form, and void").

    And in Romans 8:18-25, Paul is plainly telling us that God placed His creation in a state of vanity, in bondage to be released from it along with us when we inherit our glorious body (i.e., after Christ's future return). That is pointing to God's creation having been originally NOT in bondage to corruption.

    Then the time when Satan actually rebelled against God, the very first sin, has to be understood, because God put parables in His Word that points to that event too, and even shows a time when Satan was perfect in following Him, and was over the nations.

    One cannot deny those Scriptures as written unless... they are more interested to sticking to a tradition or agenda of man.
     
  15. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

    +2,033
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Constitution
    Jeremiah quoted Genesis 1:2 to show the degenerate evil Jews what destruction they were heading for. It means hardly "empty and void." It was designed to try to strike fear in their hearts. And, those Jews knew Hebrew. "Utter destruction, topsy turvy chaos."

    If Jeremiah warned them in "King James-ese" they would have probably laughed.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  16. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

    +2,033
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Constitution

    You are wrong:

    Exodus 20:11, DOES NOT say God "created." - That would be - "Bara."

    Know your Hebrew? It says ..."asah" = made. Big difference to the Jews reading the Torah.

    God created the heavens and earth (bara) out from nothing.

    When it says "asah?" Made? That means that God made something out of something that He had already "created."

    Too confusing? Take your time.

    Hebrew illiteracy is the enemy of the truth.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am not a history buff. I am sure there are things you have been mistaken about over the years (even in history). For me, the Bible is more important than knowing history. For the opinions of men is not what should guide my belief in God's Word. But I see many doing exactly that. But thanks for the history lesson, though. My ultimate source and go to source is primarily the Bible. I am not going to look back on my life before I shortly die and say to myself, “Hey, I wish I read more history.” I want to spend most of my life in pleasing the Lord and focusing always on His Word and not the words of men. But everyone is free to choose their own course in life.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I love you, brother. I specially love you in fighting against OSAS, but I am gonna have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

    My points in post #123 are pretty rock solid for me.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  19. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

    +2,033
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Constitution

    What has history got to do with the original languages God ordained for preserving His Word?

    The problem we face is ambiguous translations at times. Problem .. it seems.... such wording will lead to commonly held traditional beliefs that are not correct. NOT WANTING CORRECTION .. Refusing it.

    As far as being mistaken about past history? Only recently I faced correction. Here is an interesting article:

    I always assumed the Swastika was evil. Not according to history.


    [​IMG]


    For Sale: "The Most Costly Drum In the World" - The Wm. S. Hart All Gold Ludwig Snare Drum — Not So Modern Drummer
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am not sure I would call it correction. In 1847, Thomas Chalmers is the first on record to propose the Gap Theory. In 1850, is when Charles Darwin published his book on Evolution. However, Evolution was already in existence before Darwin published his book. So does this mean there was no way for Thomas Chalmers to not know of Evolution or an Old Earth? No. It is very possible that Thomas Chalmers knew of Evolution and an Old Earth outside of Darwin's book, and Chalmers liked the idea of an Old Earth before even looking at the verses.

    So I am not sold out to man made history being a part of my faith like many other Christians are. Man made history is written by men who sometimes lie and also we do not have a complete picture of history. So I do not regard History as being as reliable as the Bible. While I may appear to be wrong from man made history in regards to the origins of the Gap Theory (Which is a false theological theory), there really is no way to tell if you are truly correct because not all things have been revealed. For I imagine there are many things in history that are not revealed. For there was Evolutionary thought even before Darwin. Then there is the spiritual aspect side of things, as well. There are those who hate the garment spotted by the flesh. We are told not to love the world, and neither the things in the world. This symbol does not prove that it was made by a Christian who was influenced by Scripture to make such a symbol. Any symbol made by a worldly person is of course being influenced by the evil one. So you can keep looking to what History says by men, but I will look to the Bible alone to build my faith, and the Gap Theory is not in the Bible.

    God does not require us to learn a special language in order to understand His Word. Biblical truth is not for theological elite fat cats. For James says that the poor are rich in faith.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
Loading...