The First Resurrection

[Hismessenger]

Physical requires a flesh body.

Did not the risen Christ have a physical body and eat physical food or have you not read and heard.

Luk :38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

hismessenger

 

[Lamb's Wife]

Did not the risen Christ have a physical body and eat physical food or have you not read and heard.
hismessenger

So? For forty days, yes. Everyone knows that, and why.

your point being...(?)

 

[Hismessenger]

It was the glorified body which we will all receive at the resurrection. That's the point. If we are to be like him then it has to be the same for us as it is for him. Or will you dispute this too for your doctrine? Forty days or two days it changes not the fact that he was both spirit in a glorified body who being in solid form did disappear before their eyes

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

So in essence what you are saying is that you never sin and that in itself is a false sense of self which the bible warns us about. To not think more highly of yourself than you should.

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Are you without spot or wrinkle in your present state that you never sin. I don't think so for the word is true. There is no good thing which resides in this flesh. There is none righteous, no not one. Until you are dead and resurrected from this flesh, you can not be who you claim to be unless you walk a perfect walk in this flesh. Even the disciples still had sin for Paul speaks of the thorn in his flesh. Are you now saying that you are greater than they.

hismessenger

 

[Lysimachus]

Actually it was you who said it is a 'physical' resurrection.

Physical requires a flesh body.

I'm not playing games here son_flower. It does appear that you are. Your "light" attitude about the scriptures reveals your lack of respect for the solemnity of the scriptures. When I said it is a physical resurrection, I was using your rules. In other words, your rules are that the first resurrection is spiritual, and the second is physical. But nowhere does it say the second is physical either, so my question is, on what premise do you rely on to state that the first is spiritual and the second is physical? My emphasis is that it makes no sense for the first resurrection to be spiritual, and the second physical both in the same chapter 20 of Revelation. That would be inconsistent. If you have a physical resurrection that is followed by a spiritual, then it is not a "second resurrection", but simply the first of another kind of resurrection.

Now why didn't John just say... and i saw the lives of those that have been beheaded....?

The translators, ma'am. The translators. The NIV translates the same Greek word "souls" (Psuche) as "lives" in many other places. Remember, the popular theology during the King James Version translation was that a "soul" was separate from the body, so they just used the word "soul". John's understand of the word "soul" was "life". Notice how the translators translate "psuche" in other places:

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives (psuche) unto the death." (Revelation 12:11)

OR simply those that have been beheaded?

Read above.

Oh, well because that makes NO SENSE.

It makes every bit of sense, but you just refuse to see it. You don't see it, because you do not want to see it. Nor do you seem very interested to try and really grapple with what I am saying. Your preconceived opinions and ideas are more important to you.

Since there BODIES must have been separated from their HEAD at some point!

And? During the tribulations on this earth, yes. But these Souls John is seeing are those who were resurrected at the Second Coming. Remember, John is seeing the souls of them that WERE beheaded. But they were those who came up in the "first resurrection". This was the same event as in 1 Thess 4:13-18. John is seeing these souls (lives) reigning in the New Jerusalem in heaven, after they were resurrected in their glorified bodies. He is simply alluding to the fact that he saw that those who were martyred were saved! They went to heaven! His point: That MANY have died for Jesus!!! You are not digesting John's spiritual message. You are getting hung up on semantics. Focus on the issues.

So by your reasoning, the Lives of those beheaded... LIVE?
lol.

No. The lives of those who were beheaded, because they were resurrected in the First Resurrection, and now are reigning with Christ in the New Jerusalem. He is simply alluding to the fact that He saw those who were beheaded while on earth are now living with Jesus in heaven. Simple as that. Saints in their new bodies who were once beheaded while down here on the earth.

Why would a beheaded Life need to Live if it already does?

It doesn't.

1. The saint is beheaded.

2. They are dead and await the first resurrection at the Second Coming.

3. They are resurrected in their glorified heavenly bodies. Now they have heads again. (I don’t think this is funny)

4. They are caught up and taken to heaven, to reign with Christ in the New Jerusalem.

5. Now John is taken in vision to the future during the millennium and sees those who were beheaded for Jesus now reigning with Christ in the New Jerusalem, with their new bodies. They have NEW lives.

It's so simple ma'am. So simple. Please try to digest what I am saying. So far your confusion seems to be a result of your desire to be confused. You have not shown much interest to be released from your confusion. You do not appear to be very interested in employing yourself as a diligent student of the Word. That's the way you come across anyway. You react to what people say emotionally, but you do not try to break down what they are saying, nor do you take time to evaluate what someone is saying before you fire off at them.

Even Martin Luther and Tyndale believed that the dead are dead, and their soul does not exist outside their body after it dies as a conscientious self-existing entity. They believe that when you die, you die, not until the resurrection. This is inherent in much of orthodox theology.

Yes i have read them and you failed to show anyone being taken to Heaven for a 1000 years when Christ DESCENDS.
Except in your own mind.

Please read 1 Thess 4:13-18; 19:1; John 14:2,3; Gal 4:26; Heb 11:16; 2 Cor 12:2; Col 1:5; 1 Peter 1:4; Rev. 3:12; Rev. 21:2, 10.

I have shown that 1. When Jesus comes, the Saints are caught up and taken to the mansions to be with Christ, prepared for them where His FATHER is. 2. I have also shown that not one verse reveals that this “reign” with Christ during the 1000 years is on earth. Because it isn’t. It’s in heaven. If the 1000 years commences at the Second Coming, and it is at the Second Coming that the saints are taken to heaven, then voila, it doesn’t take a Ph.D. to realize that the saints dwell with Christ in heaven during the 1000 years. If you would like all the scriptural proof that the earth is 100% void and desolate after Christ's Second Coming, then refer back to one of my earlier posts here, and here.

Scripture you are lacking for this.
New Jerusalem is the Lambs Wife. We are that Wife now!

Just like the heavenly sanctuary mirrors the earthly spiritual sanctuary, so likewise, the heavenly New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ, because it is the future inheritance and home of the saints. The New Jerusalem, a literal city in heaven, is the Lamb's Wife, because it represents God's Bride. There are no scriptures lacking for this. It is all over scriptures. Just read your Bible. Galatians 4:26 tells us that "the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is mother of us all" Since the Bride was not in heaven when Paul wrote this, as the Church was just setup, this unambiguously proves a literal city in heaven.

The literal city in heaven is the representative capital of God's bride, as it will be the home of ALL the saints.

21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:9...Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

2Co 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Amen! I agree Thank you for sharing these scriptures!

And I will add more!

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect." (Hebrews 12:22,23)

It's very clear. There is a literal Jerusalem in heaven. This dwelling place must be in our hearts. And this is the home we shall inherit physically. It is the capital of the saints. There is a Literal Temple in heaven and a Spiritual Temple on earth. Daniel, Hebrews, and Revelation clearly teach this “two-fold” sanctuary. And just like there is a Spiritual Temple on earth (His Church) and a Literal Temple in Heaven, so likewise, God’s people on earth represent the New Jerusalem—we are the representatives, the citizens of the Literal New Jerusalem in heaven. This is why the New Jerusalem is the Bride, the Wife of Christ, because it represents His Church, His People, and it is their Home.

No mention of any physical event yet reasoning prevails?

Spiritual Resurrection spoken of by Jesus could NOT possibly be truth.

No clue what you’re talking about. You’re off on some other trail that is irrelevant to the subject. Not sure what a “physical event” has to do with recognizing that the “souls” in Genesis 46 are people with their bodies.

You just said there are NO people on earth during the millenium. No one for Satan to deceive.

Rev.20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth...

Here is living proof that you are not paying attention very much of what I have said. I do not appreciate when people attempt to refute my arguments before they even know what I am trying to state, or what they are refuting. If you had read my posts carefully, you would have noticed that the nations Satan goes out to deceive are those resurrected nations that were DEAD during the 1000 years. This is why they face the “SECOND DEATH” because they died ONCE BEFORE prior to the Millennium. Satan does not go out to deceive these nations during the millennium, but at the very termination of the millennium, when all the wicked resurrect to face the Great White Throne Judgment, and will be shown exactly why they were lost before they are consumed.

These are the “rest of the dead” that do not live again until the thousand years are finished.

Without going into any details with scriptural support, please at least try to “visualize” the concept” before we go on:

Here is a summary of the events:

1. The Rapture of the Righteous Living and Righteous Dead occurs at the same time of the Second Coming--a unified event at the end of the great tribulation. Christ does not touch the earth at the Second Coming. Christ comes the second time, and all righteous dead and living are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and taken to heaven to reign with Christ a thousand years. This marks the First Resurrection (Resurrection of the Righteous).

2. At this same event, the remaining living wicked are destroyed by His brightness, and the earth is laid desolate and void for 1000 years. "The land rests from habitation during the 7th millennium".

3. Satan is bound for 1000 years to this dark, desolated earth--the bottomless pit (Gr: abussos--or "abyss")—a wilderness—along with his demonic hosts. The earth does not cover her slain.

4. When the 1000 years are finished, Christ and all the saints come back to the earth along with the New Jerusalem. Christ puts His feet down on the Mount of Olives, it cleaves into a great plain, and the New Jerusalem sets down.

5. All the wicked that ever lived are resurrected (the Second Resurrection--Resurrection of the Wicked), and the sea gives up their dead. Satan is loosed from his chain of circumstances, and goes out to deceive the resurrected nations to join him in besieging the New Jerusalem--that Beloved City that came down from heaven.

6. After the Great White Throne judgment, when all the wicked are shown the evil of their ways, fire comes down from heaven creating a lake of fire that covers the breadth of the earth, eventually destroying the wicked, Satan and his hosts.

7. The earth is cleansed by fire and then remade new before our very eyes. The Gates of the City open, and the saints inherit the earth forever and ever. God and Jesus will dwell with us. ​

YOU said it is a 'physical' resurrection and no 'people' are left here.

Do people on earth not have bodies???

Rev.20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Of course they have bodies. They were resurrected! All the wicked dead that died prior to the Millennium. Remember, at the Second Coming, at the beginning of the Millennium, all the saints (every saint that has ever lived) is caught up and taken to heaven to reign with Christ IN HEAVEN for 1000 years, while all the wicked are left dead. At the end of the millennium, all the saints return with the New Jerusalem, on the Mount of Olives. Then ALL the wicked dead are RESURRECTED in the SECOND RESURRECTION at the END OF THE 1000 years. THESE ARE “the resurrected nations”. These ARE the nations that Satan goes out to deceive. At the END of the millennium, AFTER they are resurrected. But DURING the millennium, there is NOBODY. They are DEAD. Get that in your head!

Please try harder to get my view straight:

Satan does not deceive any nations during the millennium. Satan goes out to deceive these nations after they are resurrected at the end of the millennium. Connect Revelation 20:5, with verses 7 and 8. The only reason Satan can now go out to deceive them is because they “came to life” (Rev 20:5, NIV) at the end of the 1000 years. It is this "coming to life" of the wicked dead that releases Satan from his chain of circumstances in not being able to deceive them. He deceives them into attacking the Holy City, which, inevitably, will fail--and the result will be they will be thrown in the lake of fire.

Now instead of attacking my view right away, if, and after you understand it, could you please at least acknowledge that you are finally understanding my point of view first before attempting to disprove it? That would be much appreciated.

(Continued&#8230

 

[Lysimachus]

(Continued…)

If their are no people to be forgiven or preached to then what is the function of the priests of God in your millennium?

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

First off, we will be priests forever just like Jesus is our High Priest “for ever” (Hebrews 6:20). Does this mean that Jesus is going to forgive sins “for ever”? That would mean wicked people live for ever too. Christ will be our High Priest forever, but His ministration does not last forever.

Revelation 22:5 says… ”they shall reign for ever and ever.”

Does this mean they will reign over wicked or unsaved people for ever and ever?

No. Adam had “dominion over the earth” when he was all by himself in Genesis. You need to take off Dispensational goggles, because these goggles are preventing you from ascertaining the proper use of certain Biblical terminology.

Secondly, these priests (saints) who will reign with Christ during the 1000 years will not be on earth. You will not find one single verse in the entire Bible that tells you the millennial reign is on earth. Not one. All scriptural texts that refer to an earthly reign are referring to AFTER the millennium, when the saints return with Christ in the New Jerusalem for the executive and last judgment of the wicked, when they face the “second death” after they are resurrected.

Thirdly, Peter in 1 Peter 2 calls the Gentile Church a “royal priesthood” presently. Does this mean they can forgive sins? Moses in Exodus 19:6 calls all the Israelites a “kingdom of priests”. Revelation 1:6 calls Church saints “priests” in the present-tense. And in other places the Bible calls us “priests” many times too. Does this mean that we can forgive sins?

Of course not. In the same way that we are priests today, we will be priests during and after the millennium.

 

[Lysimachus]

What YOU said i am saying.... I AM NOT SAYING.

A physical second resurrection does not exist!

YOU are the one giving dead people bodies.

YOU are the one claiming this carnal physical soul junk.

I am Raised up with Christ into Heavenly places. NOW. Today!!
Amen!


Those in the second death are DEAD because they were not born again into the Resurrection of Christ.
1Co 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

They are judged and DESTROYED.

Period. No walking around anywhere bowing again to satan.



He did. It is called a SOUL.

You must be spiritually resurrected in Christ before you can physically live forever. Because, believe it or not Son_flower, you will die one day. And if you die before Jesus comes, you have to be resurrected in a new glorified body.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?​

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. It is you who wishes to believe in a carnal ghost story, where we float out into space with no bodies. This is unbliblical. And you need to give up your erroneous doctrine, because it just isn't going to happen the way you think it is going to happen.

"And [though] after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." (Jer. 19:26)

Job will see God with a NEW BODY!

It is my hope that you can give this spiritualized resurrection view up, and humbly accept what I am telling you. Yikes! *whew*

Need more proof that the resurrection is PHYSICAL?????

Ezekiel 37:3-14:

37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.
37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but [there was] no breath in them.
37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.​

This Old Testament prophecy was antitypically explained by John the Revelator concerning the First Resurrection, it's Unconditional Antitype. These passages PROVE that there will be a PHYSICAL resurrection of God's Saints. This event has not happened yet, and it WILL.

So quit fooling around, submit to what I have to say FOR A CHANGE, and accept what the Lord is telling you through these Bible passages, that there will YET be a PHYSICAL resurrection of the RIGHTEOUS, the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Your spiritualized version of the resurrection is nothing but Witchcraft spun by evil spirits.

You appear to be a doctrinally proud individual who REFUSES to address Biblical arguments when they are put to the test, even when challenged with the Word of God. Such approach places us on dangerous ground.

Theological pride can keep you out of heaven.

Did you know that? So SIT DOWN, and pay attention, for a change!

It's for your own good!

 

[Lysimachus]

(double-post)

 

[Lysimachus]

Dear Son flower,
You have such an excellent understanding of these things! I meet so few who aren't brainwashed by scofield dispensationalism! Yes, absolutely, we have died in Christ and the second death has no power over us, because we've been raised in the first resurrection, even the resurrection of Christ!
Don't let the unbelievers get you down dear lady. You have an excellent witness of the Holy Spirit, from whence you've received your incredible and beautiful understanding
God is with you!

Lamb's_Wife,

I am equally, or more opposed to Dispensationalism than you and Son_Flower put together. I am writing a book against it.

But you do not win arguments against Dispensationalism by spiritualizing the resurrection. It just doesn't work, as I have proven.

The only way you are going to rightly refute Dispensationalism is if you recognize the points I have raised.

Jesus will come back ONE time, for all believers. ALL the righteous dead will be raised incorruptible, in their new glorified bodies, and all those saints still living will be caught up together with those resurrected saints, into the clouds. The wicked will be destroyed at this same Second Coming event, and the earth will be left desolate for 1000 years.

You cannot refute error with error. Try an Adventist perspective of the Millennium, and you might see some beautiful new truths that you have never before witnessed. Adventists do not believe in a distinction between Israel and the Church.

Son_Flower is very inconsistent in her theology. She spiritualizes away the resurrection, and does not believe we will ever have new bodies! Please do not listen to her, for your own good!

Ezekiel 37 completely obliterates this concept to smithereens.

It appears that Messianics are just as much confused as Dispensationalists. You can't go from one error to another. Error never refutes error. It only replaces error with error.

Do not agree with Dispensational Futurism?

Do not agree with Preterism?

Do not agree with Postmillennnialism?

Do not agree with Amillennialism?

Then try Adventist Historicism! An ideology with an eschatological construct that actually makes beautiful and perfect sense. An ideology that is built on the UNANIMOUS teachings of ALL our Protestant Reformers! (of whom NONE believed in Dispensationalism, yet recognized the physical resurrection of the body at Christ's Second Advent)

 

[Hismessenger]

I just realized that the same old heresy has surfaced again which Paul addressed in 2 Timothy;

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Paul then goes on to say;

Phl 3:11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Phl 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Phl 3:13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,

Phl 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Phl 3:15Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

Phl 3:16 Nevertheless, to [the degree] that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, [fn] let us be of the same mind.

So now I ask, if Paul being an Apostle chosen of Christ said that he was looking to attain to the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD did not see himself as already being resurrected, why do you repeat this same heresy that undermines the faith of some and gives others the loss of hope.

I said to you once before not to think more highly of yourself than you should but evidently you don't have ears to hear what the spirit was saying.

If Paul understood that even if he thought he was saved, why do you think
that he wasn't broadcasting it to the masses. There is one good reason that you should know being supposedly mature. That reason is, only God knows who has truly been chosen for eternal life. You can't name it and claim it as many carnal minded people believe.

I urge you to submit to the spirit and ask God for his truth. He said to ask and it will be given, seek and you shall find and knock and the door will be opened. He is faithful his word to perform. OR don't you think you need his direction?

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Phl 3:11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Then why did Paul say this. He knew more of the resurrection than we do because he saw Jesus for himself.

You talk about quickening, this is true, but as far as being resurrected, it is yet future as attested to by Paul. The question I ask of you is are you walking the perfect life. Is there no thorn in your side I fully understand what Son Flower is talking about but her terminology puts it in the wrong light. Quickening yes, resurrection, no. The point is that it has been denied that there is a resurrection for the saints because it is being pushed that we are already resurrected. Only Christ has been resurrected until the in times begin. That is when the first resurrection is to occur or else the word is not true. What is being perverted is the seal of God until the day of resurrection. Paul knew this and so did many other disciples of Christ. Once to die and then the judgment. This applies to every one for we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Some for reward and others for damnation. Can you deny this is so when it is written in the word. And when the saints are resurrected, they will not be subject to the second death but they still have stand before the judgment to receive eternal life. that is their reward for faith in the risen Lord. It can be denied all you want but the truth still stands against whatever we believe which is contrary to what it says.

hismessenger

 

[Lysimachus]

Lamb's_Wife,

What I am showing is that you are teaching that there is no future physical resurrection. You and Son_Flower call this "Futurism and "Dispensationalism". Do you want me to go back and quote you? I can if you are so bent on denying that you did say this.

When I mentioned that there is a future physical First Resurrection, you both denied it. You wish to continue pushing the idea that there is only a spiritual First Resurrection. In fact, Son_Flower even went on as far to say that the Second Resurrection was not a physical one either. Both times she spiritualizes it to mean ghosts.

My purpose here is to show, that although there is a spiritual resurrection, this spiritual resurrection which must occur presently precedes the future physical resurrection that is coming. But I am labeled a "futurist" for believing this.

Even after informing my father what you both said, who is a pastor, he was pretty shocked.

It doesn't matter how you cut it, slice it, or dice it, the spiritual resurrection does NOT eclipse the physical resurrection.

But we must partake of that First Resurrection now, spiritually, before it can be fully realized physically when Jesus comes.

So there will be a Physical First Resurrection--a literal resurrection of the dead in Christ who will be given new, glorified bodies, and meet the Lord in the Air---and will be taken to reign with Christ in heaven (not on earth) for 1000 years. At the same time, this earth will be laid waste and desolate, as all the wicked perish at the presence and brightness of His coming.

Why will these saints partake of the Physical First Resurrection? Because they partook of it spiritually first. But this "First Resurrection" does not reach its completion--one more time--IT'S COMPLETION until it is fully realized physically, when the literal righteous dead are raised in their glorified new bodies, and taken to heaven to be forever with the Lord.

This is the amazing beauty which both of you refuse to see. You refuse to see that the First Resurrection has a spiritual application and a physical, literal application built into it.

Jesus must be in our hearts spiritually, yet, He is a physical person. Just like He is with us spiritually today, by His Spirit, so will one day will He be with us physically once again as well. The same it is with the resurrection. Before we can partake of the First Resurrection physically, and literally, we must partake of it spiritually today.

But you guys only want to go half way, and leave no room for a future literal, physical resurrection of the dead, when the dead in Christ will be raised in new glorified bodies and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air.

This has always been a central creed of Christendom long before any Dispensational or Futurist notions were known in the Church.

 

[Lysimachus]

But where YOU fail to perform is SHOWING WHERE IT SAYS "SECOND RESURRECTION!"

Why would the Bible even say "First Resurrection" if there wasn't a second? Isn't that kind of ridiculous? There can only be a "first" of something if a "second" follows it. This is common-knowledge that anyone with a remote amount of spiritual gray matter between their ears can comprehend. In fact, anyone who has taken basic English at elementary school will tell you that there can only be a first if there is a second. Otherwise, it is not a "first", but the "only".

Besides that, we also have:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29)

Don't know if you see it, but the word "THE" is a definite article. There is a resurrection of life and a resurrection of damnation. That makes 2.

If you come up in the First Resurrection (only because you partook of it spiritually first), then you are saved and will join with Jesus and His angels in the air and be taken to heaven.

If you come up in the Second Resurrection (which is the rest of the dead, the wicked that is, that come to life at the end of the 1000 years), then you know you're lost, and will see the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, to hold the Great White Throne Judgment, and you will be cast into the Lake of Fire with the Devil, and all his angels along with all your wicked friends.

The Millennium is bookmarked by two resurrections. The Resurrection of the Righteous at the beginning of the 1000 years and the Resurrection of the Wicked at the end of the 1000 years.

It's as simple as it can get.

If you think Dispensationalists or Futurists teach anything remotely close to this, you're dreaming.

 

[Lysimachus]

Just to bear with you, I understand your carnal logic. The product of using your gray matter is quite different from the revelation of the Spirit.

So you claim to have the Revelation of the Spirit? Give me proof. It's a simple as the fact that I disagree you have had any such revelation. I would argue that all your arguments stem from theological pride, nothing more. You do not stand on the Word of God alone. You induce your own speculative imaginations into it.

No. It doesn't follow that there has to be a "second resurrection" because there was a first one. LOL. Yes it is quite ridiculous to assume such an unscriptural thing.

Oh yes it does follow. Don't pretend to suddenly now try to get out of this one. It clearly, and unambiguously states:

1. "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Rev 20:4)

This text unambiguously states that this First Resurrection occurs prior to the 1000 years.

2. "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection." (Rev 20:6)

Only those who come up in the "First Resurrection" are "blessed" and "holy"

3. "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)" (Rev. 20:7)

Simple as pie!! You have people coming up BEFORE the 1000 years, and you have people coming up at the END of the 1000 years. I don't know about you, but I take just what the Word says. That's 2 resurrections for you. The 1000 years is bookmarked by 2 resurrections. The First Resurrection of the Righteous at the BEGINNING of the 1000 years, and the Second Resurrection at the END of the 1000 years.

Here is WHY. Because the MEANING of the "FIRST RESURRECTION" is here;

(Rom 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

(Col 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We all in His resurrection (the one at the first when Jesus was resurrected) are the "church of the firstborn".

(Heb 12:23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Jesus was the first resurrection. He IS the Resurrection.
We in Him are IN HIS RESURRECTION! The First resurrection! Get it? Can we make sirens and bells and whistles go off here? Fireworks too? This is a key to understanding this mystery so that we get off the "future physical" theology wheel.

This is another way He is spoken of as "first";

(1Co 15:20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

We are all firstfruits in Christ's "first resurrection";

(1Co 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

As you can see, there is no "second born" or "second fruits" or "second coming". Such a notion is totally ridiculous.

We are all "firstfruits" in the first resurrection of Christ that we are baptized into.

As a tree we grow out of Christ, the Root;

(Rom 11:16) For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

(Rev 14:4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

There is no "second resurrection" . The carnal mind is deceving you. Your salvation is in jeopardy teaching false doctrine and ignoring Scripture and wisdom.

A word to the wise

Shalom

And?

Nothing wrong with these texts. But being spiritually born again will eventually culminate in a literal resurrection. We must partake of the First Resurrection for it to finally be realized literally. The spiritual realization of it is today, and now, and the literal will be our future reward when Jesus comes:

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Rev. 22:11,12)

Paul is simply taking a physical concept and applying it spiritually.

As long as you continue to reject the dual application of the resurrection, you will never be able to ascertain the full picture of the Scriptures, and will continue to bask in your spiritualistic deception.

Before we can physically, literally inherit eternal life, we must be born again spiritually. The Literal First Resurrection, and being Spiritually Born again---are ONE and the SAME. It begins spiritually, and ends physically. The literal is simply the "ENDING" point, or the "CULMINATION", or the "RESULT" of the spiritual process.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)

I believe that if one is born of the Spirit, they will be able to spiritually discern these sacred realities. They will not divide up scriptures and pick and choose what they like above other plain texts.

 

[Lysimachus]

Yes The FIRST Resurrection IS those in Jesus.
The resurrection of the wicked has NOTHING to do with the First.
John calls it SECOND DEATH.
Because they are damned.
Damnation means they do not live.

I never said the resurrection of the wicked has anything to do with the First. Wow, your mind is so filled with strange ideas, that you never seem to grasp anything I am saying.

The wicked come up in the second resurrection to face the judgment, at the end of the 1000 years. This is what I said. Only the righteous partake of the First Resurrection, which is at the beginning of the 1000 years.

If they are damned, they will go to the Lake of Fire in the Second Resurrection. If they are saved, they will come up in the First Resurrection to meet their Lord in the air at the Second Advent--which begins the 1000 years.

If i am partaking spiritually first, my citizenship is in Heaven. How do you know i will not get hit by a bus tomorrow?
BAM i will be absent from my body, asleep to this world and present with Lord

"For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him." (Isaiah 64:4)

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Cor 2:9)

Clearly, although our citizenship is in heaven, we have not received this physical reward yet. Paul unambiguously includes righteous people here. You may be standing in heavenly places spiritually, and you may be born again spiritually, and your citizenship may already be in heave now....but you still haven't received it PHYSICALLY. These verses are too clear. Don't try to wiggle out of them.

You said they will walk around first in their zombie bodies to get deceived by satan. That could take a while.

Satan has billions of demons. It won't take that long. He'll convince all the resurrected wicked that he was the one who resurrected them, and that the ones in the Holy City are the rebels.

And the wicked won't be zombies. They will be resurrected. God can do anything. They will be alive again. Not dead. Just not in their glorified spiritual bodies like Jesus received. But in their sinful, earthly bodies.

If they 'see the New Jerusalem coming out of heaven' how do they surround it from the breadth of earth?

It settles down on the Mount of Olives. Why can't the surround it from the breadth of the earth? The city will settle down.

Do they wait till the city is anchored to the ground or something?

Maybe. All we know is that the Bible says they surrounded that Beloved City. Ellen White was shown in vision a few extra details---she said that she saw the city settle down on the Mount of Olives. Satan goes out to convince them all that they have a chance against the city.

Then do they devise a plan all while in their new zombie state?

They devise a plan all while in their resurrected, carnal state.

Or do they devise the plan before the City come out of the sky?

Nope. After it has settled.

You have them walking all around getting 'lost' in satans lies all over again.

Yep, Satan goes out to deceive the wicked again. That's what Revelation 20 teaches.

John said the City is Us. The Wife of the Lamb.

The city is us, and we are the city. Why? Because we will be IN the city.

It is both. The bible calls "Israel" Jerusalem many times.

We are told in II Kings 24:14-15:

“And he [Nebuchadnezzar] carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land. And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon. . . .”[/i]

Obviously, Nebuchadnezzar did not carry away the physical city of Jerusalem. "Jerusalem" here refers to a socio-political entity composed of king, officers, military men and craftsmen.

This is not to mention the NUMEROUS times when the term "Jerusalem" was symbolically used to represent Israel as a nation. It was the people the represented Jerusalem, but it was the physical city that was their literal home, and represented who they were.

So we are Jerusalem. Why? Because your citizenship is there! It is OUR city!

When you say "All of New York City came to the Football game", are you we to assume that the physical city came to the football game? Of course not. It is a metaphorical expression to mean that the citizens of the city came to the football game, not the city itself. But the fact that such a people exists PROVES that there is a physical city that these saints are citizens of!

Very simple. We are told there is a "Jerusalem which is above" (Gal 4:26). If we, the saints, are the only Jerusalem, here on earth, how can there be a Jerusalem above?

That city represents us, just like there is a literal sanctuary in heaven that represents God's spiritual on earth.

This is the beauty of God's "Two-Fold" sanctuary.

Yes simple.
One Resurrection to Life, which is in Jesus.
This is the First Resurrection.

Yes, it must be in Jesus. But it will finally culminate literally when the saints come to life physically when Jesus comes. All those who died IN CHRIST (meaning, the were resurrected spiritually before they died) will resurrect PHYSICALLY when He comes. This "physical" has not happened yet.

And One final destruction of DEATH, which is judgment by Jesus.
Second death.

Yes, all those wicked will be destroyed in the second death. Why? Because they came up in the Second Resurrection--the "rest of the dead that lived not again until the thousand years were finished". Remember, there is a resurrection at the beginning of the 1000 years, and there is a resurrection at the end of the 1000 years, as I have clearly pointed out to Lamb's_Wife already. You have people coming to life to reign with Christ a thousand years, and you have people coming to life at the end of the 1000 years. Revelation 20 is too clear to miss this. It is at the end of the 1000 years that the wicked will have one "final" destruction.

No one going up to heaven then back down or no dead zombies walking around John never stated such baloney.

Never said that. You like to imagine wild things. But read Revelation 20 again. Read it again and again and again until it PERMEATES your brain. It says that the "rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". PRESTO! That's dead people coming to life again. These simply cannot be those who reigned with Christ during the 1000 years, because it unambiguously states that the rest of the dead do not come to life until the 1000 years are finished. Therefore, those who come to life at the end of the 1000 years cannot be those who partook in the First Resurrection which commences at the 1000 years. You can only reign with Christ for 1000 years if you came up at its commencement.

These "rest of the dead" that "came to life" are the ones thrown in the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment:

Revelation
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

 

[Lysimachus]

(Continued...)

You have been shown that there is NO "second resurrection". You have been shown that Jesus IS the resurrection and that it is NOT an "event".

You have shown me nothing of the kind. I have proven to you above already that there is a Second Resurrection. It is implied. It does not need to "state". It would not be called a "first" resurrection if a second did not follow. It would just be called "resurrection". I have proven to you that there is a coming to life before the 1000 years (in order to reign a thousand years), and I have proven to you that there is a coming to life at the end of the 1000 years. This makes 2 resurrections.

Case closed.

You have been shown that there is no such teaching in scripture as a "future physical resurrection"... these are all your own words and terms that describe what someone told you. Not the Word of God.

And you have been shown that there is such a teaching in scripture as a "future physical resurrection"...to say otherwise is to employ your own words and terms that describe what someone told you. Not the Word of God.

Your concept of things is empty and dry as a bone. It has no attraction to those of the Spirit.

Those who are in the Spirit will be converted, and will recognized that there is a Blessed Hope to look forward to. If that "hope" has already transpired, then it cannot be termed "hope", for there is nothing to hope for, except living in this dark, dreary world, where disasters are increasing every day, the sick and dying are everywhere, and the earth is full of wickedness.

I want nothing to do with this mystical carnality of yours.

We all know your position. We've all been there in that old belief. We rejoice in being delivered from that blindness and futuristic way of trying to apprehend "the resurrection".

You've gone from bad to worse. You are not floating in a quagmire of spiritualistic deception. You have turned your ears from the truth, and choose to believe a lie. It is mysticism that emanates from the breath of the Serpent--that great Hermetic Dragon which will be burned up in the fire. You wish to deny the plain sense reading of passages, taking into account only the spiritual application of the resurrection, but denying it's ultimate fulfillment literally.

You simply induce into the Scriptures with your own Develish, wishful, spiritualistic ideologies which have their inspiration by the same one who beguiled Eve and told her: "You shall not surely die".

And sadly, you have fallen for this myopia teaching.

I will pray that one day you will wake up from your spiritualitic lethargy.

Those who say "what kind of body do we get" Paul says, "thou fool..." in response to such questions!

(1Co 15:36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

It is a foolish question.

Jesus Christ's resurrection was the "first resurrection". There is no "second resurrection". In fact, in Him, we are all "firstfruits" according to Paul.

Huh? Woah. There is no second resurrection for the righteous. I have never said that. When I say "second resurrection", I'm speaking of a "second event". The wicked dead will come up at the end of the 1000 years (a separate resurrection event -- of damnation)--separate from the resurrection that occurred for the righteous. You are still not grasping what I believed.

Jesus is the firstfruits, and if we live IN CHRIST, and because He died and resurrected for us, if we die before Jesus Comes, we too will be quickened and physically resurrected like Christ was--who is our Resurrection. Simple as ever. Unless you intend to keep the the righteous dead in the grave forever?

When you are dead, no thoughts can exist:

""Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4

Anyway, if you are going to just keep saying what your daddy tells you instead of what your Father in Heaven is trying to show you, nothing will change in your life.

Everything I said here is based on my own personal, devotional research. I simply referenced my father because he, likewise, thought the same. Your theology is truly ridiculous, outlandish, and well, heretical at best.

And I know very well that you have some major things you would like to see changed in your life. They won't change until you let God reveal and Come in to you Now in Resurrection Life and Quicken your mortal body to righteousness by the Spirit. Quit wasting time looking for some universal resurrection scenario like the dispensationalists.

I will continue to adhere to the Scriptures I quoted, and look for the Coming of the Lord. Dispensationalists may believe in the resurrection, but that is an inclusive element in their theology, not the essence of their theology. As I have already shown, all the Reformers, Church Fathers, and Apostles believed in the literal Second Coming of Christ and resurrection--which has nothing to do with Futurism.

As for you, I believe that if you continue in this Satanic theology, you will eventually be caught "unawares", and will be in for a rude awakening if you do not give up your false, New Age, mythical spiritualism.

You may not believe in Futurism, but you are definitely a sucker for Augustinian's spiritualism and false allegorization.

Quit wasting other people's time by taking their mind off what IS in Christ and divorcing it away from them off into the worthless future.

I will continue to direct people's minds to NOW, what IS, and that Blessed Hope to COME. Both are equal, and neither cancels out the importance of the other.

It would be nice to see some evidence you read this stuff we present you *sigh*

shalom

Shalom

Ditto. I'd love to see some evidence you read any of the texts I provide.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men [PRESENT],
2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ [FUTURE]​

You wish to deny the plain readings of these texts...denying that, although there is the here and now, for which Christ has appeared to us SPIRITUALLY, through His Grace, there is yet a future "GLORIOUS" appearing (which is not the same as spiritual appearing) of the Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. This is yet future.

May the plain, uttering declarations of these Holy Writings rebuke your wayward course.

You will be in my prayers sisters, as you have both fallen into erroneous and heretical teachings which will lead nowhere near toward Eternal Life.

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in LIKE MANNER as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)

 

[Hismessenger]

So now the question is, since you are spiritually resurrected in Christ, how does you spirit become free of this flesh which it must for God ordained this in the Garden of Eden. That man could not live in this sinful flesh eternally. So how do you reconcile this with your belief?

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

To make it simple. how do you get from this earthly tabernacle to your spiritual house. Simple enough so answer the simple question and don't try to run and end around what you must eventually come to admit. You haven't before so now give us the answer which you must.

hismessenger

 

[Lysimachus]

Hismessenger,

I doubt they will answer your questions. You have posed to them solid questions which cannot be answered by the spiritualists.

They have yet to give a solid answer as to what becomes of us after we die. They claim Jesus has already come, and we are already in heaven. But they do not give account as to what the transition is when they die.

They almost act as though no one dies. Maybe they've never seen a loved one in a casket before?

They wish to cling to all their texts concerning the spiritual rebirth experience and walking in newness of life--which are all good of course--all the while denying that this spiritual resurrection we must experience today is temporary--and a prerequisite to inheriting the literal kingdom--which is also spiritual.

When God first created Adam and Even, he gave them real bodies. He put them in literal bodies. He put them on a "LITERAL" earth. It was all "spiritual", but it was all touchable! Revelation 21 describes Eden restored--first creation is restored. To turn God's future kingdom into a mystical realm, with no touchable substances, is for God to basically denied that his first creation, which was literal, was imperfect.

God's spirit must be in us today. It brings us newness of life. It must transpire today if we are to live forever.

Son_Flower and Lamb's_Wife on the other hand simply do not want to account that everyone in the past who has lived a Godly life has died. As of yet, they have not explained the transition from this life to the next, nor do they seem very willing to provide any distinction between this life and the life that comes after death.

 

[Hismessenger]

If i get hit by a bus tomorrow guess what???

Your dead ! BY what you guys are saying there is no further change needed to have eternal life but if there is no further change then you would die in the flesh being spiritually resurrected. Makes little sense doesn't it.

Your physical body dies which frees your spirit to be resurrected to eternal life. Your spirit doesn't die with your body but you don't seem to be able to reconcile this with your doctrine. If you don't leave this flesh, then you are not redeemed from sin and death. To leave this flesh is to be resurrected to life in Christ, free from the sin of the flesh.

hismessenger