The First Resurrection

[Lysimachus]

More concerning Daniel 7:12 from J.H. Waggoner:

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The symbol of the Roman power is a nameless beast, "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it; . . . and it had ten horns." These horns are, in verse 24, said to be "ten kings that shall arise;" and, as this prophecy is parallel to that of chapter 2, it is conclusive evidence that the divisions of the fourth kingdom, the feet and toes of iron and clay, were also ten kingdoms. {1872 JHW, RDAC 38.3}
The prophet continued his description of the vision: "I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots; and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." And this is the interpretation of it. "And he [the little horn] shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time." The action of this
39
power will be noticed again under another symbol. {1872 JHW, RDAC 38.4}
To one statement of this vision we would here call particular attention. "I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." Verses 11, 12. This does not mean that their lives were prolonged after the body of the fourth beast was destroyed; but that their lives were prolonged after their dominion was taken away. And this is not only proved by chapter 2 to be the true meaning of the text, but it must be so to harmonize with that chapter, and to explain its statement in verse 35. "Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together," which could not be if each in turn was destroyed, or broken to pieces, when it lost the dominion. {1872 JHW, RDAC 39.1}
An objection has been urged against the idea of the universality of these kingdoms, in that not one of them carried its conquests to every part of the then known world. But this objection is really trivial. The remarks of Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar in Dan. 2:37, 38, and to Belshazzar in chapter 5:18, 19, are justified by the facts, which are explained in chapter 8:4, where it is said of the ram, "Neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will." If they so far established their supremacy as to make further conquests unnecessary, or further resistance impossible, then the declarations of the prophets are warranted. And
40
herein is found an argument from analogy for the universality of the kingdom of God. "The kingdom and dominion and greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is given as a description of its extent. Again, it "became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." The destruction of the Gentile kingdoms, as given in the prophecy of Daniel, is identical with that referred to in Jer. 25, before quoted, and that includes "all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth." {1872 JHW, RDAC 39.2}
But, while it must be admitted that the destruction of the nations in the second, seventh, and eighth chapters of Daniel includes all to which reference is made in the image, or in the words of Daniel, chapter 2:37, 38, and 5:18, 19, it may yet be said that there in another beast in prophecy not included in those dominions, because not existing in any locality covered by those prophecies, to wit: the two-horned beast of Rev. 13. That the two-horned beast is a symbol of American power, I firmly believe, but do not accept the objector's conclusion that it may therefore escape the destruction spoken of in the prophecy of Daniel. We will examine this point. {1872 JHW, RDAC 40.1}
The "great red dragon" of Rev. 12, is well understood to be a symbol of the Roman power in its pagan form, and answers to the "dreadful and terrible beast" of Dan. 2, as first seen by the prophet. The beast with seven heads and ten horns of Rev. 13:1-10, is a symbol of the same dominion under papal rule, as the dragon gave this beast its power; and, of course, answers to the same beast of Dan. 7, after the rise of the "little horn," which became "more stout than its fellows." This identity is shown by many points. {1872 JHW, RDAC 40.2}
41
To the little horn was given power over the saints for a time, times, and dividing of time-1260 prophetic days (years). Compare Rev. 12:6, 14.The beast had power to continue (make war, margin) 42 months; 42 times 30=1260. Both spake great swelling words of blasphemy against the Most High; both wore out the saints of the Most High. And to render assurance doubly sure, that the same dominion, both in locality and extent, is pointed out in the two prophecies, the beast of Rev. 13 is presented as a combination of all the beasts of Dan. 7. The seven heads and ten horns, the leopard's body, the bear's feet, and the lion's mouth, all prove a perfect identity. It has the characteristics of them all, and stands as the representative of them all. And then the two-horned beast is brought to view, working miracles in the sight of the first beast, and causing that an image be made to the beast, and that men should worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of the beast. By this descriptive work we identify the same power in Rev. 19, and it is there also seen in connection with the first beast. "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Verses 19, 20. Please compare chapter 13:11-16. {1872 JHW, RDAC 41.1}

From: "Refutations of the Doctrine Called The Age to Come, Chapter Two. Nature and Extent of the Coming Judgments.

 

[Lysimachus]

From James White:

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Verses 7,8: "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it; and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots; and behold. in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." {ND JW, BIAD 107.1}
The fourth beast corresponds with the iron legs of the image of chapter 2, and represents the Roman kingdom. The ten horns of the beast correspond with the ten toes of the image, and represent the ten kingdoms into which the Western empire of Rome was divided. But these verses will be particularly examined when we come to the angel's explanation. We will also pass over the words of the text in verses 9,10,13, and 14, which we have noticed. {ND JW, BIAD 107.2}
Verse 11: "I beheld, then, because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake; I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame." {ND JW, BIAD 107.3}
Nothing is said of the dominion of this beast being taken away, as is said of the others. The others lost their dominion after a time; but their subjects survived, and were transferred to the succeeding governments; but the very body (subjects) of this fourth kingdom is destroyed, and given to the burning flame. {ND JW, BIAD 107.4}
Verse 12: "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away; yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." {ND JW, BIAD 107.5}
Babylon, Media and Persia, and Grecia, successively lost the dominion; but the lives of the respective nations were prolonged, being merged into the succeeding governments. {ND JW, BIAD 108.1}
Verses 15-18: "I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came neat unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall rise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever." {ND JW, BIAD 108.2}
Mark this: There were four beast presented to the prophet, which represent four universal monarchs, no more, and no less. The fourth "beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame." This denotes the destruction of all the living wicked. Next, the saints of the Most High take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom, not for a thousand years only, but forever, even forever and ever. {ND JW, BIAD 108.3}

 

[Lysimachus]

More from James White:

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In the seventh chapter of Daniel the four perishable kingdoms are represented by four beasts. The fate of the fourth is expressed in these words: "I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame." If the words slain, destroyed, and given to the burning flame do not express utter extinction, we know of no words that will express the idea. It is worthy of particular notice that the fourth beast continues without change of character until he is given to the burning flame. Not so with the other three beasts which precede him. Says the prophet: "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." The territory and subjects of the Babylonish kingdom still existed, though subjected to the Persians. So of the Persian kingdom in respect to Grecia, and of Grecia in respect to Rome. But what succeeds the fourth kingdom? Is it the world's conversion and the temporal millennium? No, indeed! Its career will end in the lake of fire, and it will have no existence beyond. The lion was merged into the bear, the bear into the leopard, and the leopard into the fourth beast. But the fourth beast is to end his career in the lake of fire, which will be his utter destruction. {1877 JW, RAR 43.2}

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Says the prophet, "I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots; and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." Verse 8. Of this horn the interpretation says: "And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time." Verse 25. Says the vision: "I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Verses 11,12. This does not mean that their lives were prolonged after the body of the fourth beast was destroyed; but their lives were prolonged after their dominion was taken away. The dominion of the lion was taken away when Belshazzar was slain, that of the bear was taken away when Alexander conquered the Persians; that of the leopard when the Romans established themselves masters of the world; the fourth or dreadful beast was to retain the dominion until his destruction. This of course will not conflict with Rev.xiii, where the beast is said to receive a deadly wound, for the deadly wound is healed. {January 31, 1856 JWe, ARSH 140.25}
The fact recorded in Dan.vii,12, is often lost sight of; and it seems to be taken for granted that their lives are taken away when their dominion is taken away; but as this vision corresponds with the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, this 12th verse must be considered to harmonize the vision with the 35th verse of Chap. ii: "Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken to pieces together;" which could not be if the gold, silver, and brass, were each in turn broken to pieces when its successor took the dominion. {January 31, 1856 JWe, ARSH 141.1}

 

[Lysimachus]

Thomas Newton:

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Little Horn, Geographical Location of.—Antichrist, then (as the Fathers delight to call him), or the little horn, is to be sought among the ten kingdoms of the western Roman Empire. I say of the western Roman Empire, because that was properly the body of the fourth beast; Greece, and the countries which lay eastward of Italy, belonged to the third beast; for the former beasts were still subsisting, though their dominion was taken away. "As concerning the rest of the beasts," saith Daniel, "they had their dominion taken away; yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." Dan. 7: 12. "And therefore," as Sir Isaac Newton rightly infers, "all the four beasts are still alive, though the dominion of the three first be taken away. The nations of Chaldea and Assyria are still the first beast. Those of Media and Persia are still the second beast. Those of Macedon, Greece, and Thrace, Asia Minor, Syria, and Egypt, are still the third. And those of Europe, on this side Greece, are still the fourth. Seeing therefore the body of the third beast is confined to the nations on this side the river Euphrates, and the body of the fourth beast is confined to the nations on this side Greece; we are to look for all the four heads of the third beast among the nations on this side the river Euphrates; and for all the eleven horns of the fourth beast, among the nations on this side of Greece.—"Dissertations on the Prophecies," Thomas Newton, D. D., pp. 239, 240. London: B. Blake, 1840. {1919, SBBS 285.7}

 

[Lysimachus]

Never mind my previous post I see who you got living in the mil, and I have to say, It won't pan out scripturally, a man has only one life to live and then judgement, you have people who were dead being raised to life to live again......I'm sorry I'm going to have to disagree with that part

Hi Realtruth!

I was wondering, have you yet had a chance to read the rest of my posts concerning Daniel 7:12? Any thoughts?

In addressing your statement above, I believe that you not conceptualizing the chronology right.

Yes, I, and those who agree with me, strongly uphold to the fact that men have one life and then the judgement.

The second resurrection IS that judgment!

Scripture PLAINLY teaches the "Second Death". You cannot have a "second death" if you were not raised to life again.

This chronology is the ONLY chronology that can reconcile ALL the eschatological problems revolving the millennium, and the rapture.

Keep in mind:

1. I've already proven that at the Second Coming, all saints are taken to heaven, and all the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

This leaves 0 people on the earth. But how are they going to besiege the New Jerusalem, that "Beloved City" if they all were destroyed at the Second Coming? How can deceive them if they were all destroyed?

Unless you want to conclude Realtruth that the New Jerusalem, that Beloved City, comes down from heaven BEFORE the millennium? That position is not tenable. The Beloved City is not besieged until the end of the millennium.

The only way to resolve this problem is to have the wicked resurrect for judgment!

The wicked are not thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Second Coming realtruth. No no no! The Second Coming is BEFORE the millennium.!

They are thrown into the Lake of Fire AFTER the millennium! But these wicked have to be resurrected!

It plainly says in Revelation!

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." (Rev 20:4)

These "rest of the dead" are the same as the wicked that were destroyed at the brightness of His coming! This is why Satan is unable to "deceive the nations anymore" (verse 3), because they are all dead!

There are 2 resurrections:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29) "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15)

The Bible clearly teaches 2 resurrections. But the main body of wicked do not resurrect in the "first resurrection". It says plainly:

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection." (Revelation 20:6)

Therefore, the "rest of the dead" that come alive at the end of the millennium cannot be the righteous. They can only be the wicked, because only those who are raised in the First Resurrection are "blessed".

Getting the picture yet? Also don't forget that it says the "dead stand before God", and are "judged" (20:12). Why are they called "dead"? Because they were the resurrected dead that the sea and hades (the grave) gave up in Revelation 20:13. Remember, John is backing up, and enlarging, repeating, backing up, and enlarging all the way through. Do not read it in perfect chronological order.

These wicked that are resurrected is to face the judgment and see exactly why they were lost---so they can see the record of their lives, and all the deceptions will be unfolded, and every single wicked will see that God was just. All the books will be opened, and now the universe will be able to officially declare God a just God, as every wicked will see exactly why all the righteous were saved, and every wicked will be able to see why all the wicked were lost.

This makes PERFECT sense, and I think that you will come around and admit it as well once you begin to think about it. It's the ONLY way for God to declare His justice before every single individual that has ever lived at the same time.

2. I've also already proven that the earth is left in a void and desolate state during the millennium. There are literally dozens and dozens of texts to prove that there is a time when the planet is 100% vacated--and this vacated time can only fit during the millennial reign. For all the Biblical evidence, see my article entitled: The True Nature of the Millennium.

Enjoy!

Blessings! =]

Lysimachus

 

[Hismessenger]

The question was who is in the first resurrection. The scripture tells us who it is in no uncertain terms. They are the ones who are killed by the beast for their witness for God. It goes on to say, the rest of the dead live not until the thousand years be fulfilled. This talking about both saved and unsaved who die before the beheading of the ones in the tribulation. Only ones from the tribulation are in the first resurrection. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. It is not talking about saints who died before this time.

hismessenger

 

[Lysimachus]

The question was who is in the first resurrection. The scripture tells us who it is in no uncertain terms. They are the ones who are killed by the beast for their witness for God. It goes on to say, the rest of the dead live not until the thousand years be fulfilled. This talking about both saved and unsaved who die before the beheading of the ones in the tribulation. Only ones from the tribulation are in the first resurrection. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. It is not talking about saints who died before this time.

hismessenger

I'm not understanding what you are saying. Where does it say in the Bible that the ones who come up in the First Resurrection are the ones killed by the beast?

Scriptures are rife with the concept that those who come up in the First Resurrection are all the righteous who have died in Christ from all ages, not just the Beast. The Martyrs are INCLUDED in this number, but they are not the only ones that come up in the First Resurrection.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28,29)

This passage is very explicit, Hismessenger. There are 2 resurrections here.

1. The Resurrection of Life
2. The Resurrection of Damnation

All those who have "done good" will come up in the First Resurrection -- The Resurrection of Life.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15)

"And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." (Luke 14:14)

Scriptures teach that the First Resurrection is the Resurrection of the Just. This commences at the beginning of the Millennium, at the Second Coming. This is when the so called "Rapture" takes place---AT the Second Coming.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

These are not just martyrs. These are every saint that has died in the Lord prior to Christ's Second Advent. This resurrection occurs at the Second Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of glory.

All the saints will be taken up to heaven, while all the wicked perish at the brightness of His coming.

This means the saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years in heaven before returning to the earth.

The earth will be 100% void and desolate during the 1000 years, except for Satan and his fallen angels who will be trapped on this dark abysmal planet, with nothing but dead bodies and carcasses for 1000 years.

Once the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven with all the saints, then all the wicked will be resurrected to face the Great White Throne Judgment. Satan will go out to deceive these resurrected nations to go and besiege that Beloved City that came down out of Heaven.

 

[Hismessenger]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The word makes it clear that the saints in this verse are in the great tribulation and come under the wrath of Satan and lose their heads. Then it goes on to say;

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Who are the rest of the dead? They are the saints who died before the tribulation. As I said earlier the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
It begins in Rev 6 when it talks about those who gave their lives for the word of God and the testimony which they held;

Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Rev 6:11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they [were], was completed.

This is the rest of the dead awaiting the end time resurrection for it doesn't say that they loose their heads because of God's word and they were not in the tribulation with the beast and false prophet. There were and are millions of Christians killed daily but none in the manner and time of the anti Christ as of yet.

hismessenger

 

[son_flower]

Well, no response then allow me to finish. How about the second death? It fits like a glove with the two resurrections.

Rev. 2:11 (NASB)
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.'

Rev. 20:6 (NASB)
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rev. 20:14 (NASB)
And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:8 (NASB)
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The idea of a second death obviously indicates that there is such a thing as a first death. So what is the first death? Very simple - the first death was when Adam and Eve fell in the garden.

Romans 5:14 (NASB)
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

1 Cor. 15:22 (NASB)
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.

1 Cor. 15:45 (NASB)
So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

God had said...

Genesis 2:17 (NASB)
... but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die."

So the first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection from the death that was pronounced on Adam and all of his decendants - including us. So when people hear the Gospel message and repent and are baptised they no longer are subject to the second death. They gave up their evil ways and were buried and resurrected spiritually with Christ. The second resurrection is at the end of time when the Christian is resurrected in a new body.

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

They and Them are His Bride that John just described in the previous chapter.


SOULS are not bodies.

 

[Lysimachus]

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

They and Them are His Bride that John just described in the previous chapter.


SOULS are not bodies.

Soul = Body + Spirit

You are a soul. I am a soul. We are out to win souls for Christ. Let us not mystify the word of God.

 

[son_flower]

Soul = Body + Spirit

You are a soul. I am a soul. We are out to win souls for Christ. Let us not mystify the word of God.

Let us define the Word of God in Truth.

souls=
Strong's G5590 - psychē

1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
b) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

 

[Lysimachus]

Let us define the Word of God in Truth.

souls=
Strong's G5590 - psychē

1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
b) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

You are using a dictionary definition, but not using the Biblical definition. The Greek language was a pagan language, but the translators struggled to use certain Greek words that would help to interpret the Biblical definition. The "c" version you listed is obviously the Greek pagan side of it, but was not the definition meant by the authors, as they would obviously be contradicting the Bible:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

Scriptures are clear. A soul is a result of:

"Dust" (Body) + "Breath" (Spirit) = Soul

Man "BECAME" a living soul after those two elements were COMBINED.

Don't argue. Just face the facts!

What is it going to take to RIP out the PAGAN ideas from you people?

Get your mind OUT OF BABYLON!! Your minds are FLOODED with the INSIDIOUS influences of Greek PAGAN Philosophy that stem from Plato!

This doctrine is the very DOOR to Spiritualism!

It is a spiritualistic belief that stems from the great lie of Satan:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4)

You guys are just SOO stubborn sometimes, it is truly sad!!!

It's not a matter of opinion here. It is absolute fact!

 

[son_flower]

You are using a dictionary definition, but not using the Biblical definition. The Greek language was a pagan language, but the translators struggled to use certain Greek words that would help to interpret the Biblical definition. The "c" version you listed is obviously the Greek pagan side of it, but was not the definition meant by the authors, as they would obviously be contradicting the Bible:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

Scriptures are clear. A soul is a result of:

"Dust" (Body) + "Breath" (Spirit) = Soul

Man "BECAME" a living soul after those two elements were COMBINED.

Don't argue. Just face the facts!

What is it going to take to RIP out the PAGAN ideas from you people?

Get your mind OUT OF BABYLON!! Your minds are FLOODED with the INSIDIOUS influences of Greek PAGAN Philosophy that stem from Plato!

This doctrine is the very DOOR to Spiritualism!

It is a spiritualistic belief that stems from the great lie of Satan:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4)

You guys are just SOO stubborn sometimes, it is truly sad!!!

It's not a matter of opinion here. It is absolute fact!

LOL face the facts of the Greek language being pagan??

Wow.

Dust + Breath = Soul??? what clear Scriptural fact is that? NONE.

It is the Breath of LIFE from God that makes a soul LIVE.
Otherwise it is DEAD.
It needs not a body to LIVE.

The serpent lied. They DID die when they ate.

Jesus points our the soul and body are two different things:

Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And David knew the soul is what goes to hell. The body is dust.

Psa 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.


Paul also shows difference between soul and flesh.

Act 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


You are incorrect with your Soul = Body theology.
They are two separate things.

 

[Lysimachus]

LOL face the facts of the Greek language being pagan??

Wow.

Dust + Breath = Soul??? what clear Scriptural fact is that? NONE.

It is the Breath of LIFE from God that makes a soul LIVE.
Otherwise it is DEAD.
It needs not a body to LIVE.

The serpent lied. They DID die when they ate.

Jesus points our the soul and body are two different things:

Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And David knew the soul is what goes to hell. The body is dust.

If it is true that the spirit is not destroyed, then this means wicked people are in heaven. Concerning all humans:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecc 12:7)

You do realize that this is referring to all men, right? Both wicked and righteous? So according to this verse, even the spirits of wicked men return back to God who gave it. Not go into outer darkness.

But brother, concerning a more thorough understanding of Matthew 10:27, please pay close attention:

Matthew 10:28: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Jesus clearly teaches in this text that the soul is not naturally immortal. It can and will be destroyed in hell. But what does He mean about killing the body, but not the soul? Is it possible for the soul to exist apart from the body? Some say it is, but the Bible indicates otherwise.

The Hebrew word “psuche” has been translated “soul” in this text, but in forty other texts it has been translated “life.” For example, Jesus said, “Whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it.” Matthew 16:25. Obviously, “psuche” could not mean soul in this instance, or people could be said to lose their soul for Christ’s sake. It is properly translated “life.”

But what of Matthew 10:28? Put in the word “life” instead of “soul” and the text makes perfect sense in its consistency with the rest of the Bible. The contrast is between one who can take the physical life, and He who can take away eternal life. Here is proof in the words of Jesus:

“And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell.” Luke 12:4, 5.

In other words, the word “soul” here means not only life, but also eternal life. Notice that Luke says everything just like Matthew except that he does not say “kills the soul.” Instead, he says, “cast into hell.” They mean the same thing. Men can only kill the body and take away the physical life. God will cast into hell and take away eternal life. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in that fire, but also their lives will be snuffed out for all eternity.

If you think about this, suddenly the mysteries of the Bible begin to spring forth in your soul, and I promise you brother, you will be set free from the confusions that are sourced in Babylon and handed down through paganized Christianity. Once you are set free from this "mode of thinking" (concerning the spurious ideas of spirits flying around independently of bodies), you will find the truth, and the truth will set you free!

Psa 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

1. The NIV reads thus: "because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." (Psalms 16:10)

This is the correct way to understand the text.

2. The text says nothing about the soul being a "self-independent-conscientious-entity". It cannot think, or feel. It just means "leave the soul in the grave", but that is simply an expression to mean they are DEAD. Meaning, the soul is dead! Their life is DEAD. Jesus was not left dead in the grave. He resurrected 3 days later after his death! Anyone else would have stayed dead. That's all it means! Do not read MORE into these texts. Do not OVERSTATE the scriptures!

Psa 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Correct, but their breath goes back to God who gave it. That is the "life". It is God's now. It is now a floating conscientious independent entity as you would believe. There is no consciousness of existence until that "life" (breath/spirit) is reprogrammed back into a functioning brain. It is just the "record" of that soul, but not a conscientious existing soul of its own right. It is the life that goes back to God who GAVE IT--meaning, "God had it before". If God had it before, does that mean the soul had existence prior to man being created? Of course not! How foolish to say Adam was trekking through space in Ghostly form prior to being breathed into His body. What ridiculous foolishness!

Paul also shows difference between soul and flesh.

Act 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

You are incorrect with your Soul = Body theology.
They are two separate things.

Nope. Scriptures have proven otherwise. I mean, sure, you can argue that a soul is distinct from the body in the sense that yes, the life (soul) does leave the body at death. But this "life" (soul) is no different than a light-bulb. When you turn off a light-bulb, that electricity goes where? Nowhere! It ceases to exist. But God has the record! He can spark that light back into the light bulb again! The only thing that makes the soul an existing entity is once Body and Spirit are combined. To believe otherwise is to accept the lie of the serpent.

“For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.” ~ Job 19:25-27

Notice. Job will not see God before he is in his flesh! Seeing God only comes “in the latter day”! at the resurrection!

“in this manner”, “we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess 4)

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4

If the soul can "think", and "feel", and be a self-conscious entity without its body, these scriptures would mean absolutely nothing, for the soul's thoughts truly would not perish. Some try to hop, skip, and dance between the raindrops by trying to say these texts are referring only to the body. But that's not what the text says. It is talking about "man", and a soul is very much part of man.

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun…. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10

"There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.", Ecclesiastes 9:10

"The grave cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise Thee, as I do this day." Isaiah 38:18, 19

"In death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?" Psalms 6:5

"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalms15:17

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.” “For David is not ascended into the heavens.” Acts 2:29, 34

If David had not ascended into the heavens, then surely His soul did not go to heaven. Once again, you may try to skip, hop, and dance between the rain-drops by saying this means only his body. I propose that once again, this will be a FOOLISH cop-out. It does not say "body", it says "DAVID". David was a soul!

"If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." I Corinthians 15:16-18. -- If for four thousand years the righteous had gone directly to heaven at death, how could Paul have said that if there is no resurrection, "they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished"? No resurrection would be necessary.

“Behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12

It is QUITE clear that the righteous or the wicked are NOT “rewarded at death”. The “reward” (eternal life or death) is given when? At his “coming”. Christ BRINGS his reward WITH HIM! To conclude otherwise is to conclude that the righteous and wicked are rewarded at death, not the Second Coming.

“Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created.” (Psalms 104:29, 30).

“For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I to this day.” (Isaiah 38:18,19)

“The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.” (Psalms 115:17).

“For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” (Psalms 6:5)

Like I said before, time to face the music and accept that the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul is a doctrine of DEVILS!

 

[Lysimachus]

Notice Luther's sentiments on the state of the dead:

"For just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpectedly when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him, so we shall suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death.' 'We shall sleep, until He comes and knocks on the little grave and says, Doctor Martin, get up! Then I shall rise in a moment and be happy with Him forever." (Leroy Froom, Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers 2:74, 75)​

Commenting on Ecclesiastes 9:10, Luther wrote:

"Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152. (Martin Luther, 1493-1546, Great Reformer and founder of the Lutheran church.)​

Quite strong was the following by Luther:

"But I permit the Pope to make articles of faith for himself and his faithful, such as [1] The Bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament. {2} The essence of God neither generated, nor is generated. [3] The soul is the substantial form of the human body. [4] The Pope is the emperor of the world, and the king of heaven, and God upon earth. [5] THE SOUL IS IMMORTAL, with all those monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals. . . ." (Ibid)​

Said E. Patavel concerning Luther's comment:

"The theory of the immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that Rome, borrowing from paganism, incorporated into the religion of Christendom. Martin Luther classed it with the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255.​

Tyndale supported Luther's revived teaching of the conditional immortality of the soul and this put him into perilous conflict with the Church of Rome.

William Tyndale wrote:

"And ye, putting them [departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection."

....

"The true faith setteth forth the ressurrection... the heathen philosophers, denying that, did set forth that souls did for ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ with the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the scripture to stablish it." - An answer to sir Thomas More's dialog - 1850 reprint (William Tyndale, 1484-1536, translated the Bible into English and died a martyr.)​

To break it down, the doctrine of natural immortality is a doctrine of pagan spiritualism. It is a spurious teaching, including that of eternal torment and purgatory. The Church Fathers, especially Tertullian, CONSTANTLY appealed to Plato for wisdom concerning the estate of the soul. According to Froom, "it was Tertullian who first affirmed that torments of the lost will be co-equal and co-exist with the happiness of the saved." (Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers., vol. 1, p. 950.) Tertullian's propositions needed other modifications: "He [Tertullian] confessedly altered the sense of Scripture and the meaning of words, so as to interpret 'death' as eternal misery and 'destruction' and 'consume' as pain and anguish. 'Hell' became perpetually dying, but never dead" (Ibid., vol. 1, p. 951). Without hesitation, Tertullian referred directly to Plato (a Greek philosopher) in his writings. Plato's primary theme, "every soul is immortal," became Tertullian's unwavering platform (Tertullian, On the Resurrection, chap.3, quoted in ANF, vol.3, p. 547). These church fathers followed suit by including Tertullian's propositions in their public preaching and writing: Minucius Felix, Cyprian of Carthage, Ambrose of Milan, John Chryosostom and Jerome (translator of the Bible into the Latin Vulgate).

Remember, Plato was not a Christian. He was a Greek philosopher that believed PLANTS had pre-existing souls, as well as all other living matter. Mormons inherited these pagan ideas, just like most of Christian inherited the doctrines of Eternal Torment and the Immortality of the Soul. Most people do not realize it, but these doctrines are the doorways to spiritualism--and to subscribe to such teachings will leave way for Satan to deceive the masses by resurrecting dead relatives who come back and work miracles, but are actually demons in disguise.

 

[Mikecpking]

LOL face the facts of the Greek language being pagan??

Wow.

Dust + Breath = Soul??? what clear Scriptural fact is that? NONE.

It is the Breath of LIFE from God that makes a soul LIVE.
Otherwise it is DEAD.
It needs not a body to LIVE.

The serpent lied. They DID die when they ate.

Jesus points our the soul and body are two different things:

Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And David knew the soul is what goes to hell. The body is dust.

Psa 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.


Paul also shows difference between soul and flesh.

Act 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


You are incorrect with your Soul = Body theology.
They are two separate things.

There is distinction, but you will never find the word 'soul' to mean anything that is outside a body. 'Soul' in the bible means the whole person or the life bound up in the body. 'Soul' can also mean a corpse (a dead nephesh)

 

[Hismessenger]

All the saints will be taken up to heaven, while all the wicked perish at the brightness of His coming.

So I ask this question since you say all the saints will be taken. Who is it that Satan compasses the camp and the Holy city at the end of the millennium. So you don't have to find it in the word, these verses from Rev 20 wipe out both of the forgone conclusions;

Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So now this says that there are saints on the earth at the end of the millennium and there are also the wicked who join with Satan on His last forage into the church.

You explain it in your own understanding and not what you have heard someone else say. That is the trouble with the religious masses. All we like sheep have gone astray.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

The "second coming" is the judgment at the second death

Then when and where do the remaining saints receive their reward. The scripture says;

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

This shoots down the premise that the saints have all received their reward and only the wicked are resurrected to judgment. For there are saints which come out of the millennium alive and are changed in the twinkling of an eye to be with Christ. This is part of the second resurrection for no flesh can inherit the knigdom and all flesh must die to bring it into a righteous state with God.

hismessenger

 

[Mikecpking]

YouTube - ‪State of the Dead - First response to OneTrueChurch (2A)‬‏

 

[son_flower]

Then when and where do the remaining saints receive their reward. The scripture says;

This shoots down the premise that the saints have all received their reward and only the wicked are resurrected to judgment. For there are saints which come out of the millennium alive and are changed in the twinkling of an eye to be with Christ. This is part of the second resurrection for no flesh can inherit the knigdom and all flesh must die to bring it into a righteous state with God.

hismessenger

The 'remaining' saints receive their body when they see Jesus as He is.
Your eye twinkles in less than a second.

If you have died with Christ and born again by the Spirit in Resurrection you have been judged ALIVE NEVER TO DIE.
Raised up on thrones. Given judgment.
The second death has no power over you.

Rev.20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

This does not shoot down any second death of the wicked dead who are DEAD.