The Final Harvest

[5thKingdom]

Again, this is information that remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints “shall understand” during
the “Time-of-the-End”. [Dan 12:8-10] The Lord has PROMISED the Last Saints “shall see all of these things” which
He foretold about the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast. [Mat 24: 15, 33] This is just part of the “mysteries”
God has PROMISED the Last Saints would preach – as the Seventh Trumpet “begins to sound”. [Rev 10:7-11]
In fact, the Bible contains several passages related to this event… the “Final Harvest” of “Wise Virgins”.


(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".


(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".


(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!


(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.


(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

Again, this is information that remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints “shall understand” during
the “Time-of-the-End”. [Dan 12:8-10] The Lord has PROMISED the Last Saints “shall see all of these things” which
He foretold about the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast. [Mat 24: 15, 33] This is just part of the “mysteries”
God has PROMISED the Last Saints would preach – as the Seventh Trumpet “begins to sound”. [Rev 10:7-11]
In fact, the Bible contains several passages related to this event… the “Final Harvest” of “Wise Virgins”.


(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".


(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".


(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!


(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.


(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.


.

Over 100 views and not ONE VERSE offered to refute anything said.
Don't feel bad, this information was provided to over 200 theologians in the best Seminaries in America
and NONE of them could refute the information... so it's not likely someone on this forum can.

Jim

 

[DavidPT]

(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.


.

Can you prove that nothing recorded in Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age? I realize Preterists don't think anything in Revelation 19 involves His 2nd coming in the end of this age, except you are not a Preterist as far as I can tell.

Let's look at some of Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 ¶And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

First we see this recorded in ch 19.

Then we see this recorded next.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Which then follows with this.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

A lot of us take this be meaning that the 2nd coming is underway at this point. Why would it be incorrect to take it to mean that?

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 21 is obviously pertaining to the events involving verses 19 and 20. How do you propose Christ fulfills verse 21 without having bodily returned first? And as to verse 20, which appears to be meaning when the beast is given to the burning flame(Daniel 7:11), who is it that you propose captures the beast, and with him the false prophet, then casts them alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone? And what does that look like if it doesn't even involve Christ's 2nd coming in the end of this age?

IOW, the point I'm trying to make here, unless you can convincingly prove that nothing recorded in Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age, your view makes zero sense unless Premil is true, except you are not a Premil, you are an Amil.

The reason why is, because if the season and time per Daniel 7:12 is meaning after the 4th beast is given to the burning flame, and though I myself fully agree that it is, but if Revelation 19 is involving the 2nd coming, and that the season and time begins after verse 20 is fulfilled, this requires more days post Christ having returned, in order to fulfill this time and a season that follows the fulfilling of Revelation 19:20. Thus, why your view does not make sense the fact you are Amil rather than Premil, unless you can convincingly prove that nothing recorded in Revelation 19 is involving the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age.

 

[5thKingdom]

Can you prove that nothing recorded in Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age? I realize Preterists don't think anything in Revelation 19 involves His 2nd coming in the end of this age, except you are not a Preterist as far as I can tell.

I agree Rev 19 shows the 2nd Coming...

HOWEVER, it is NOT at the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20] which is the end of the Great Commission
and the end of the Church Age.

Rev 19 is talking about the period known as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and
(3) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" and (4) the reign of the Anti-Christ during (5) Satan's "Little Season"
after being released from the Pit.

You conflate the THIRD Christian Beast with the FOURTH Great Tribulation Beast.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Lets talk about the MARRIAGE
Here is what I posted in the OP... it shows five (5) different perspectives of the MARRIAGE


(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".


(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".


(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!


(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.


(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.


These passage are all talking about the SAME EVENT...
the Marriage of the Saints... commonly known as the "Final Harvest".
These events occur at the END of the Fourth Beast (Revelation Beast)
and NOT at the end of the Great Commission.

IOW, the point I'm trying to make here, unless you can convincingly prove that nothing recorded in Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age, your view makes zero sense unless Premil is true, except you are not a Premil, you are an Amil.

But, of course, the OP clearly says the "Final Harvest" is shown in Rev 19
I don't understand WHY you would think otherwise?


But again, you CONFLATE the "End of the Age" (end of the Great Commission)
with the END of the Great Tribulation.


You CONFLATE the end of the THIRD BEAST
with the end of the FOURTH BEAST


You will never find Truth until you understand WHAT the Four Beasts represent.
Really... how can you expect to find Truth unless/until you identify WHAT is represented
by the 2nd and 3rd and 4th Beast?

The reason why is, because if the season and time per Daniel 7:12 is meaning after the 4th beast is given to the burning flame, and though I myself fully agree that it is, but if Revelation 19 is involving the 2nd coming,

Yes... Rev 19 shows the 2nd coming...
but that happens AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed.
Rev 19 shows BOTH the destruction of the Fourth Beast and the Final Harvest...


Please re-read the OP reposted above... I have provided you with FIVE (5) different perspectives
of the Final Harvest.


Rev 19:20
And the [Fourth/Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both [the False Prophet and Fourth Beast] were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Always remember... the BEAST in Rev 19 is the Fourth Great Tribulation Beast
and NOT the Third Great Commission Beast.

this requires more days post Christ having returned, in order to fulfill this time and a season that follows the fulfilling of Revelation 19:20. Thus, why your view does not make sense the fact you are Amil rather than Premil, unless you can convincingly prove that nothing recorded in Revelation 19 is involving the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age.

Your error is not understanding the NATURE of the "Season and Time" (also called the "Time-of-the-End")
this is a topic in itself and I should start a thread on that topic. However, for now, let's leave that aside and focus
on whether we have agreement or not on the five (5) perspectives of the Final Harvest. THAT is the subject of this thread.

Do we have agreement on the five (5) perspectives presented?


Jim

 

[Zao is life]

You conflate the THIRD Christian Beast with the FOURTH Great Tribulation Beast.

You have completely misidentified Daniel's 3rd beast, which most certainly was the Greek Empire before the death of Alexander the Great, and created another beast (that is non-existent in scripture) in its stead.

The four beasts of Daniel are the kingdoms of fallen man. Your title "four kingdoms of heaven" is counter-biblical, even anti-biblical.

There is only one Kingdom of Heaven, and that is the Kingdom of God/Christ. The blood of Christ became necessary for the salvation of all human beings the moment Adam sinned. God promised the seed of the woman would come (Genesis 3:15), and God gave to Eve her son Seth in place of Abel, whom Cain murdered.

God walked with Seth, with Enoch, with Noah, with Abraham, etc, and talked with them. That's the Kingdom of heaven in the Bible - the only Kingdom of heaven.

The one and only Kingdom of God has nothing to do with the four kingdoms of fallen man written about in Daniel. Your "new" 'gospel' is no gospel at all.

The 1st beast of Daniel was Babylon.
The 2nd was Media-Persia.
The 3rd was Greece under Alexander the great.

The history of God's elect and the prophecies that surround it, repeat themselves in exactly the same way that the history of God's elect and the nations that oppress them is saturated with types and anti-types. Most biblical prophecy is more than merely telling about what is coming - it's apocalyptic literature - it explains to God's elect what is going on around us and the reasons for the things we see happening, before they come.

Was the Olivet Discourse talking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem and its temple which occurred in 70 A.D? Yes. Was the Olivet discourse telling of the coming great tribulation of the saints and the coming return of Christ at the end of this age? Yes.

The Olivet Discourse was about the destruction of city and sanctuary in 70 A.D
The Olivet Discourse is about the coming great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the antitype of Antiochus and the return of Christ.

The forth beast of Daniel was about the kingdom of Antiochus - IV-A.
The forth beast of Daniel is about the kingdom of the beast of Revelation - IV-B.

Following Alexander the Great's death, his empire divided into four kingdoms, out of one of which arose:

The 4th kingdom - that of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (kingdom/beast IV-A)- the biblical type of the man of sin, and the beast of Revelation 13 (kingdom/beast IV-B).

The forth kingdom has two parts to it. Antiochus fulfilled almost all of it - but not all of it (example Daniel 7:27 was not fulfilled in his day). The antichrist/man of sin will fulfill some parts that were not fulfilled by Antiochus, though history proves that Daniel chapters 8 and 11 were all about Antiochus. This is also why Revelation 17 does not speak about the subduing of three kings - because that related to Antiochus.

(The lying miracles that mark 'the antichrists'' appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:9) will be performed by the beast from the earth of Revelation 13, the false prophet).

It's apocalyptic literature - an unveiling. It's also why the same language used to tell ancient Babylon of its coming destruction (which occurred 70 years after Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, and exiled the Jews in the 6th century B.C), is used again in the Revelation to tell about the coming destruction of the fourth kingdom (kingdom/beast IV-B) of the antichrist.

- but Revelation 17 describes all these kingdoms and their 8th king in a different way than the forth beast of Daniel does - because different and 'other' events will accompany Revelation's beast, i.e Daniel's beast # IV-B. The beast of the Revelation is the same as the type but it's also different - in exactly the same way that Joseph, who was sold by his brothers into slavery in Egypt is in many ways a type of Christ, but Jesus was not betrayed by his brothers so as to be sold into slavery in Egypt. Jesus did not become the slave of an Egyptian ruler, was not locked in a dungeon, etc.

The only thing we need to ascertain using history and being honest about it, is which parts of the apocalypse/prophecy regarding Daniel's 4th beast was fulfilled by the type (Antiochus) and which parts were not fulfilled by him - because the parts that were not fulfilled by the type will be fulfilled by the antitype.

When you understand this, then and only then will your eyes begin to open to the prophetic books, and you will stop applying prophecies to Babylon about its destruction only to the beast of Revelation, and you will stop applying Daniel's 4th beast only to the beast of the Revelation - because the same apocalyptic literature can and should be applied to both type, and antitype.

 

[oikonomia]

You have completely misidentified Daniel's 3rd beast, which most certainly was the Greek Empire before the death of Alexander the Great, and created another beast (that is non-existent in scripture) in its stead.

I agree with this.

The four beasts of Daniel are the kingdoms of fallen man. Your title "four kingdoms of heaven" is counter-biblical, even anti-biblical.

They are Man's kingdoms - Man's political powers. That is what Man can do without God.
They mights are well be four Towers of Babel.

Skipping down a little bit:

The 1st beast of Daniel was Babylon.
The 2nd was Media-Persia.
The 3rd was Greece under Alexander the great.

And the fourth beast is the Roman empire, the most dreadful of all.

The history of God's elect and the prophecies that surround it, repeat themselves in exactly the same way that the history of God's elect and the nations that oppress them is saturated with types and anti-types. Most biblical prophecy is more than merely telling about what is coming - it's apocalyptic literature - it explains to God's elect what is going on around us and the reasons for the things we see happening, before they come.

There is a divine history within the human history. This is like the kernel of a walnut within the outer shell of the walnut.
The outward human history is a bit easier to see, for we naturally see it with natural eyes.
The inward more divine history within it is seen with the eyes of faith, especially in understanding of God working all things sovereignly for the outworking of His eternal purpose. That purpose climaxes in New Jerusalem, the organic mingling of divinity and humanity - a God-man city temple for out enjoyment and God's expression for eternity.

Was the Olivet Discourse talking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem and its temple which occurred in 70 A.D? Yes. Was the Olivet discourse telling of the coming great tribulation of the saints and the coming return of Christ at the end of this age? Yes.

Yes, He spoke of things near and things far off. Either way God desires to work Himself into His people with a view towards producing New Jerusalem.

The Olivet Discourse was about the destruction of city and sanctuary in 70 A.D
The Olivet Discourse is about the coming great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the antitype of Antiochus and the return of Christ.

I would see it this way and feel wuite comfortable to believe this.
If seeing it some other ways will result in more Christ being kneaded into my being, I'll take that.

"My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ be formed in you." (Gal. 4:18)
"Christ . . . whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ." (Col. 1:28)

The forth beast of Daniel was about the kingdom of Antiochus - IV-A.
The forth beast of Daniel is about the kingdom of the beast of Revelation - IV-B.

Oh, those pesky beasts.

Following Alexander the Great's death, his empire divided into four kingdoms, out of one of which arose:

The 4th kingdom - that of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (kingdom/beast IV-A)- the biblical type of the man of sin, and the beast of Revelation 13 (kingdom/beast IV-B).

The forth kingdom has two parts to it. Antiochus fulfilled almost all of it - but not all of it (example Daniel 7:27 was not fulfilled in his day). The antichrist/man of sin will fulfill some parts that were not fulfilled by Antiochus, though history proves that Daniel chapters 8 and 11 were all about Antiochus. This is also why Revelation 17 does not speak about the subduing of three kings - because that related to Antiochus.

Prophey is always a TESTING to the hearts of His people.
God can partially allow something to be fulfilled in order to TEST the hearts.
He tests the hearts to reveal how much MORE God's life is needed to dispense into their lives.

Antiochus was bad. But he will have one after him, worse.

You know God said He would send Elijah the prophet before the day of the Lord.
So the scholars were expecting Elijah.

God said in essence "Well, here's John the Baptist. Let's see how well you react to him coming before Me."
They ended being . . . shall we say . . . "dead right."
It wasn't Eljuah. But he was as good as Elijah as a forerunner of God incarnate.
Many failed the test to the heart though they thought they passed to doctrinal test.

"And His discples asked Him, saying, Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?
And He answered and said, Elijah indeed is coming and will restore all things.
But I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished;
thus also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them. Then the disciples understood that He spoke to ythem concerning
John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

Prophecy promises and fulfillments are always a TEST to the hearts of people.
And He is still the same God.

(The lying miracles that mark 'the antichrists'' appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:9) will be performed by the beast from the earth of Revelation 13, the false prophet).

Concerning the second beast in Revelation, the one out of the earth (not the sea):
It says he will have the appearance of a lamb but speaks as a dragon.

"And I saw anoher beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon." (13:11)

Only those with discernement will not be deceived by his appearance. In the things which he speaks they can detect that he is doing the work of Satan.

Out of the earth is different from out of the sea. The first beast is of the Gentiles. The accompanying beast I believe will be from the Jews.

"And he exericises all the authority of the first beast in his sight, and he causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose death stroke as healed. And he does great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heavento theearth befrore men." (v.12,13)

And you know the false prophet accompanying the Antichrist will make an idol of the final Antichrist, which breaths, speaks, and causes the death of all who will not worship him or it. May the Lord build up out spiritual noses now, and out spiritual discernment now.

 

[Zao is life]

And the fourth beast is the Roman empire, the most dreadful of all.

Concerning the second beast in Revelation, the one out of the earth (not the sea):
It says he will have the appearance of a lamb but speaks as a dragon.

Copy @DavidPT

I agree that the Roman Empire is the 6th 'head' of the beast of Revelation 17.

I also accepted for a long time the common belief that Daniel's fourth beast = Rome. But there are too many details contained in Daniel regarding the fourth beast that were fulfilled "to the crossing of the t" by A4E - none of which were fulfilled by Rome.

The history of how Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" (meaning "God manifest") in so many details fulfills the prophecy regarding the fourth beast of Daniel is well known and well documented. The Matthew Henry commentary on Daniel also gives a pretty detailed account.

Once someone is aware of this, he has to be willfully blind in order to ignore A4E in the fulfillment of the fourth beast (which unfortunately, a great portion of the church has chosen to do in order that Rome, rather than A4E, fits the picture).

But not all of Daniel's prophecy regarding the fourth beast has been fulfilled: Daniel 7:27 and Daniel Chapter 12, which is complemented by Revelation Chapter 10, has not been fulfilled.

A4E is clearly the type of the coming man of sin/son of perdition. And if you believe that the man of sin will be a Bishop of a particular church, I agree that that is possible, because it's obvious to many "Protestant" Christians that each Bishop of a particular church denomination (which refuses to admit its just another denomination), who claims to be the Head of the Church and makes a good few blasphemous claims, is another type of the man of sin/son of perdition.

But the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5-6) commit fornication with the harlot, so she (the harlot) is not the only harlot - and we are not given nearly enough detail about how 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 is going to be fulfilled to go engraving possible scenarios in stone.

You may or may not be correct about the beast from the earth - but how many non-Christians are identified as sheep or lambs in the New Testament (John 21:15-17)? What "lamb" speaks like a dragon today, if any? If there is such a Bishop who speaks like a dragon, then he may be a type of the false prophet.

See what I mean? We are not given all the details of how these things will be fulfilled, so it's extremely short-sighted IMO to go engraving possible scenarios (speculation) in stone.

And when we do so, we end up ignoring the fact that A4E, rather than Rome, fulfills the prophecy "to the crossing of the t" regarding Daniel's fourth beast - but A4E's antitype is the 8th king of Revelation 17, and there is a replay in certain respects, except that Revelation 17 does not talk about the 8th king subduing three others in order to grab power - it implies very strongly that all ten kings, who are of one mind, very willingly hand their power and authority over to the 8th king. Actually, Revelation 17 states it. It doesn't even imply it. And the Roman kingdom existed when John received the Revelation. It was the 6th "head" of the beast in Revelation 17. So I believe it's a mistake to equate it with Daniel's fourth beast.

 

[DavidPT]

A4E is clearly the type of the coming man of sin/son of perdition.

Why does he have to be the type when it seems that Judas, for example, fits that better? Even Jesus called Judas the son of perdition, and that he called him this before any temple was destroyed in 70 AD and before the era of time 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is pertaining to, which is either still future or already in progress? And what did Judas do to earn that title? He betrayed Jesus. These that fall away(2 Thessalonians 2:3), aren't they betraying Jesus as well? And the fact you agree that the temple of God per 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not involving a literal temple, why would you compare that to what happened in a literal temple during the days of A4E? 2 Thessalonians 2 involves falling away. How is what A4E did in the temple an example of falling away from the faith?


Something I have noticed in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the following.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth : and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Also, Wicked in this verse, this is what it means in the Greek, and the following are the passages that same word is used.

anomos
an'-om-os
from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and nomoV - nomos 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.


1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law(anomos), as without law(anomos), (being not without law(anomos) to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without law(anomos)

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless(anomos) and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

2 Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful(anomos) deeds; )


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked(anomos) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The point being, as far as I can tell anomos is never applied to demons nor satan but is applied to humans. And that anomos involves transgressing, which is what Judas did and is what those that fall away do. How any of this can be connected with A4E somehow, I guess I just don't get it even though you and others have given plenty of reasons why it allegedly does?

 

[Zao is life]

Why does he have to be the type when it seems that Judas, for example, fits that better? Even Jesus called Judas the son of perdition, and that he called him this before any temple was destroyed in 70 AD and before the era of time 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is pertaining to, which is either still future or already in progress? And what did Judas do to earn that title? He betrayed Jesus. These that fall away(2 Thessalonians 2:3), aren't they betraying Jesus as well?

There are more than just one type of Christ in scripture: Joseph, Moses, etc.
There are more than just one type of the antichrist in scripture: Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, etc.

My point is that Daniel's fourth beast is talking about a man who was also the type of the antichrist. It's not Rome, and it's not the ten kings of the Revelation who will be of one mind and will willingly hand over their power and authority to the antichrist. The Revelation says nothing about the 8th king subduing or uprooting three of the ten kings. That was A4E, one of the types of the antichrist.

The type and the antitype are not the same person, though. Judas is not the man of sin, though he certainly is also the type of the antichrist. A4E and Judas are the greatest types because in each case, their war was directly against God and His temple. Jesus is the Temple of God and Judas betrayed Him to be handed over to be put to death in the flesh.

And the fact you agree that the temple of God per 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not involving a literal temple, why would you compare that to what happened in a literal temple during the days of A4E? 2 Thessalonians 2 involves falling away. How is what A4E did in the temple an example of falling away from the faith?

There definitely was a massive falling away on the part of the Jews in the days of A4E. In fact many Jews had hellenized before the time already, and there were those leading the hellenization process that had already begun, making it a lot easier for A4E to ban the Jewish worship of God, and place an idol in the temple.

The idol A4E placed in the sanctuary of the Temple, was a statue to Zeus - the king of the gods, and A4E claimed to be the very manifestation of (the) Deity - which is what the epithet "Epiphanes", which he attached to his name, means.

The man of sin/son of perdition is indeed just like Judas also, and the idol he will set up in the holy place (the church) is no statue - it will be himself.

The massive falling away of the Jews during the days of the fourth beast of Daniel is well documented. Read this link for example. It's also written extensively about in the books of the Maccabess and by Josephus.

Those Jews who refused to abandon the Jewish faith in God and Jewish religion were killed by A4E. I really don't see why people today will close their minds to all this history and cannot see that A4E is also the type of the man of sin.

What took place during that period is a precedent for the falling away to come.

Remember, the abominations spoken of in Daniel 9:26-27 were going to, and did, result in the destruction of both the city and the sanctuary.

The AOD of A4E did not.

Something I have noticed in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the following.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth : and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Also, Wicked in this verse, this is what it means in the Greek, and the following are the passages that same word is used.

anomos
an'-om-os
from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and nomoV - nomos 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.


1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law(anomos), as without law(anomos), (being not without law(anomos) to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without law(anomos)

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless(anomos) and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

2 Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful(anomos) deeds; )


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked(anomos) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The point being, as far as I can tell anomos is never applied to demons nor satan but is applied to humans. And that anomos involves transgressing, which is what Judas did and is what those that fall away do. How any of this can be connected with A4E somehow, I guess I just don't get it even though you and others have given plenty of reasons why it allegedly does?

I agree with you regarding the word anomos. Jesus uses it also when he says, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you workers of anomos".

I just don't get why people don't realize that A4E is one of the main types of antichrist in the scriptures, and the man of sin is the antitype.
I would also not get why people don't recognize Judas Iscariot as another main type of the antichrist, and the man of sin the antitype.

I also would not get why anyone would not consider Joseph as a type of Christ, or Moses, or any other type of Christ.

Antiochus was a very cruel and very wicked man who went to war against God, against His Temple, and against His elect who remained faithful, and placed an idol in the sanctuary.

Why would he not be another type of antichrist?

The other thing is, A4E & the battles mentioned in the biblical history in Daniel, are battles that A4E was engaged in.

But you seem to completely miss my point.

THIS IS MY POINT

(In my opinion) the 4th beast of Daniel is both (type) A4E, and (antitype) the man of sin. Much of what is written about the 4th beast was done by A4E - but not all. The kingdom has not been given to the saints, and Daniel 12, though also speaking about A4E, projects forward to the time of our end, and is complemented by Revelation 10.

We never saw the return of Christ and the kingdom being given to the saints of the most high when Rome collapsed, or even since then - and Rome wasn't even defeated from the outside. Civil wars and economic distress etc all took their toll and the Roman Empire simply collapsed in its former form, breaking up into separate nation-states.

IN OTHER WORDS, I do not believe that the legs of iron and feet of iron and clay in Neb's image are referring to the same kingdom as Daniel's 4th beast either.

Neb's image moves from Greek Empire to Roman Empire, to the final kingdom (the ten toes), but Daniel's 3rd and 4th beasts move from The Greek Empire to the kingdom of A4E, who is another type of the antichrist @DavidPT and then to the final end of the final kingdom at the time of the end in our time. Daniel's four beasts skip over the Roman Empire - because A4E and what he did is the main Old Testament type of the man of sin and what he is going to do. Ceasar doesn't get to act in any scene there. Ceasar does get a mention as the legs of iron in Neb's image though.

The ten kings in Daniel's four beasts appear between the Greek kingdom and the kingdom of A4E, and they too, are a type of the final ten kings of this age - but the 8th king of the Revelation will not need to subdue any of the ten kings, whether three or four, or more - because all ten are of one mind and will willingly hand over their power and authority to the antichrist. The Revelation says nothing about the antichrist subduing three of those ten kings or three of them being uprooted. So how can it be talking about the same ten kings that arose between the Greek Empire and the kingdom of A4E?

@DavidPT Remember that a type, when it is a person, is never the same as the antitype. Nor is a type of anything else the same as its antitype: Literal Babylon is a type of Babylon the Great. Noah's ark (a material object) is a type of Christ (a person). Joseph who was sold into slavery in Egypt by his brothers is a person who is a type of another person (Christ).

@DavidPT I changed this wording in the first sentence here. The first time I posted it came across very rudely: I don't understand what this has to do with demons, and your question has me wondering if you understand this about prophetic literature (like the book of Daniel): It's not just predicting the future. It's an unveiling of the spiritual realities of what is happening that cannot be seen with the human eye,

and it's very often associated with the types and antitypes that appear in the history of God's dealings with His elect, and their interaction with the world of unbelieving peoples and nations, and so (those types and antitypes) become associated with that history.

The history that contains the person of Judas is associated with the coming (future) "history" of the man of sin - because of the history of what Judas did. Same with A4E. Same with Pharaoh, etc.

They were all lawless. The man of sin is the lawless one (anomia).

 

[oikonomia]

A4E is clearly the type of the coming man of sin/son of perdition. And if you believe that the man of sin will be a Bishop of a particular church,

I doubt this. I never heard that.
The man of sin proclaims himself as god and puts down all theistic worship of anyone besides himself. Am I right?

" . . . the man of lawlessness . . . the son of perdition, Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself frth, saying that he is God." (2 Thess. 2:3,4)

I agree that that is possible, because it's obvious to many "Protestant" Christians that each Bishop of a particular church denomination (which refuses to admit its just another denomination), who claims to be the Head of the Church and makes a good few blasphemous claims, is another type of the man of sin/son of perdition.

I don't see him being a clergyman or clerical type person. I see him as a secular god. Maybe like atheist Christopher Hitchens only many times worse.

But the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5-6) commit fornication with the harlot, so she (the harlot) is not the only harlot - and we are not given nearly enough detail about how 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 is going to be fulfilled to go engraving possible scenarios in stone.

I do not have the habit of reading virtually evil persons EVERYWHERE where "kings of the earth" is written.
That kind of 100% consistent one to one correspondence, I do not make.
I see that here some are committed to seeing God's Jerusalem based enemies whenever and wherever they read the words "kings of the earth."

You may or may not be correct about the beast from the earth - but how many non-Christians are identified as sheep or lambs in the New Testament (John 21:15-17)? What "lamb" speaks like a dragon today, if any? If there is such a Bishop who speaks like a dragon, then he may be a type of the false prophet.

Many years ago I was taught that the sea represents the Gentile world ofter. And the land represents to Holy Land. Upon this scheme the Antichrist would be of the Gentiles and the false prophet would be out of the nation of Israel.

Now in addition to that years ago I was taugh that that Jewish false prophet might be Judas Iscariot come back from "his own place" to which he was assigned after his betrayal of Judas. And I thought for long time "Well . . . that is probably a speculative stretch, maybe."
Then after some years actually, the thought seemed nore logical to me as perhaps valid.

Why? Well mainly because you have TWO witnesses from the past - Elijah and Moses (though some say it is Enoch and Moses).
And I considered that they are sent to COUNTER the extreme deception on the Devil's side of also sending TWO arch villians from the past.
Ceaasar Nero fits well the meaning of 666, to which I will not go into now. And to PAIR him with another extremely wicked person from the Jewish race, I though who better fits the role than a restored Judas Iscariot.

Anyway, the pair of Elijah and Moses on God's side verses Nero and Judas on Satan's side makes more sense to me than originally thought.

And when we do so, we end up ignoring the fact that A4E, rather than Rome, fulfills the prophecy "to the crossing of the t" regarding Daniel's fourth beast - but A4E's antitype is the 8th king of Revelation 17, and there is a replay in certain respects, except that Revelation 17 does not talk about the 8th king subduing three others in order to grab power - it implies very strongly that all ten kings, who are of one mind, very willingly hand their power and authority over to the 8th king. Actually, Revelation 17 states it. It doesn't even imply it. And the Roman kingdom existed when John received the Revelation. It was the 6th "head" of the beast in Revelation 17. So I believe it's a mistake to equate it with Daniel's fourth beast.

Excuse me. I will have to review some of this before I comment.

The footnote of the Recovery Version has this explanation about the seven heads of the beast:

"The seven kings are seven Caesars of the Roman Empire. The first five "have fallen"; i.e., they died unaturally (Judg. 3:25; 2 Sam. 1:10), 25, 27). Those five are Julius Caesar, Claudius, and Nero. a;; of whom either were murdered or committed suicide before John wrote this book.The sixth, Domitian, who was also murdered, was living when this book was written; therefore, it is said of him that he "is." "The other," the seventh, is Antichrist; he had "not yet come" at that time. When he comes, he will remain only a short time and then will be salin and will be resuscitated by the spirit of the fifth, who is Nero, to become the eighth.

Antichrist will be the coming seventh Caesar. Bit he is also the eighth. According to 13:3. Antichrist will be slain and resuscitated. In that resuscitation the spirit of Nero (the fifth Casesar), which will come up out of the abyss (when Satan is cast down to the earth - 12:10, 13), will animate and resuscitate the dead body of the seventh Ceasar, Antichrist, thereby imitating the resurrection of Christ. This one, composed of the fifth and seventh Ceasairs, is the eighth. Hence, he is "out of the seven,+ having the body of the seventh and the spirit of the fifth. Therefore, he will be all the more capable, all the more intelligent, and all the more powerful to charm, deceive, and allure people, capturing those who do not believe in Christ. It is no womder that people will marvel at the sight of such an extraordinary persomn and will follow him (v.8; 13:3)"


The number of the beast is the number of a man (13:18). This man is Caesar Nero, who is the coming Antichrist who we just saw whose spirit is caused by Satan to come up out of the abyss and inimate the slain and resuscitated body of a coming Ceasar who will be assasinated.

The number represented by the Hebrew letters of the name Caesar Nero is 666, as follows:
But I am having trouble inserting the Hebrew letter fonts. Sorry, I tried. Check chart in RcV for Revelatiom 14:18 (footenote 2)

Greek Hebrew Greek Hebrew
Πέ ---------------- 50 ---------------------- Κάι ---------- 100
ρ -----------------200 --------------------- σα ------------- 60
ω ------------------ 6 --------------------- ρ ------------- 200
ν ------------------ 50 ------------------ ----------
____________________________________________________________
---------------- 306------------------ + ------------- ------360 = 666

 

[5thKingdom]

You have completely misidentified Daniel's 3rd beast, which most certainly was the Greek Empire before the death of Alexander the Great, and created another beast (that is non-existent in scripture) in its stead.


The 1st beast of Daniel was Babylon.
The 2nd was Media-Persia.
The 3rd was Greece under Alexander the great.

There are TWO (2) problems with your theory.


(1) First, the Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's Beast would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" during a period NAMED the "Time-of-the-End"


Since your theory of Babylon, Persia and Greece is an OLD "interpretations" (very old)
it MUST BE WRONG because it was developed during a time when the TRUTH
remained "closed-up" and "sealed".


There can be no doubt about this... here is what the Bible PROMISES:


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] SHALL UNDERSTAND.


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [about the Gospel] SHALL BE INCREASED [to the Last Saints].


So your first problem is your "interpretation" MUST BE WRONG because it was developed
during a time when the Bible PROMISES the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed".


(2) Your second problem is that SCRIPTURE contradicts your theories about Babylon/Persia/Greece


While this was not taught or understood by Saints living during the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom/Beast,
and while this was never taught or understood by Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom/Beast,
the Bible speaks (in many places) about a period AFTER the destruction of the Fourth/Revelation Beast,
during a time specifically named the “Season and Time”. The Gospel of the Last Saints includes this Truth.


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] Horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the Burning Flame.
As concerning the rest of the Beasts [the remaining Beasts], they had their dominion [authority] taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a Season and Time.


The Old Testament is very clear, there is a “Season and Time” on earth after the destruction of the Fourth Beast
(Revelation Beast), in which the previous Beasts continue to exist on earth, just without “dominion” (authority/rule).
The Bible teaches a “Season and Time” on earth after people of the Fourth Kingdom are “given to the Burning Flame”.

Remembering the end of Daniel’s Fourth Beast is the SAME EVENT as the end of the Revelation Beast, we should
be able to find parallel passages about this end-time event in the New Testament – and that is exactly what we find:


Rev 19:20
And the [Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet [the Anti-Christ]
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the Mark of the Beast,
and them that worshipped his Image. These both were cast alive into a Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.


You don’t need to be a Bible scholar to see Daniel’s Fourth Beast being “given to the Burning Flame”
is the same event as the Revelation Beast being “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. In both cases it represents
the end of the Fourth “Kingdom” on earth. In both cases it represents the end of the Great Tribulation “Kingdom”
and the end of Satan’s “Little Season”. In both cases it represents the people of the Fourth Kingdom being “cast alive” into the eternal torment most people think of as “Hell”.


And that causes a problem for the (3rd) Christian Kingdom Gospel. Christian eschatology doesn’t teach about
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after Daniel’s Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed.
The Christian Gospel does not even include a Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” after the Church Age is completed.
The Christian Gospel cannot harmonize some people living on earth after others have been “cast alive” into the
“Burning Flame” or “Lake of Fire”. This Biblical Truth remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints.


Christian Saints were never meant to understand the historical fulfillment of “Time of the End” events [Acts 1:7].
Just as the Jewish Saints were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom”, so also, Christian Saints
were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom of Heaven”. The Jewish Gospel and Christian Gospel
did not understand Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom/Beast”. Those Truths remained “sealed” until the “Time of the End”.


During the (3rd) Christian “Kingdom of Heaven” many people developed incorrect theories about the people
called ten “horns” and ten “kings” in Daniel 7 (and Revelation 17). We can know absolutely that each and every
theory about these people was incorrect because the Bible promises the Truth would remain “closed-up” and “sealed”
until the “Time of the End”, when the Last Saints “shall understand” the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecies. [Dan 12:8-10]
Nevertheless, some people today still believe these incorrect theories about Daniel’s Four Beasts representing four
physical/political Kingdoms – instead of the four spiritual “Kingdoms of Heaven” they actually represent.


Some people believe the ten “horns” and ten “kings” represent the European Union (the modern Tower of Babel).
Others think these “horns/kings” represent the Babylonian Empire followed by the Persian Empire, the Greek Empire
and the Roman Empire. Not only can we know the theories were incorrect because they were developed while the Truth
remained “closed-up” and “sealed”… but we can also know these theories were incorrect because none of them included
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after people in the Fourth Beast had been “given to the Burning Flame”.


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] Horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the Burning Flame.
As concerning the rest of the Beasts [the remaining Beasts], they had their dominion taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a Season and Time.


The “Season and Time” on earth after destruction of the Fourth/Revelation Beast (after Satan’s “Little Season”),
is the same period Daniel’s prophecy calls the “Time of the End” when the Last Saints “shall understand”.
During this time people live on earth (without dominion) after others are “given to the Burning Flame”.


When the Fourth Beast is viewed as the Roman Empire, the European Union or any other physical/political Kingdom,
there's NO WAY to harmonize an eschatological doctrine that Daniel's "remaining" Kingdoms continue to exist on
earth for a “Season and Time” after the people living Daniel’s Fourth Kingdom have been "cast alive" into Hell.


Daniel's Four Beasts are not physical/political Kingdoms (governments), they can only be spiritual Kingdoms.
And Daniel 7:11-12 immediately destroys all Christian eschatology since it reveals people are living on earth
for a “Season and Time” after people living in the Fourth Kingdom are “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”.


Obviously, the Babylonian Empire, Persian Empire and Greek Empire do not continue to exist on earth,
without dominion, [Dan 7:11-12] after the people of the Roman Empire have been “given to the Burning Flame”
or “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. Daniel’s Kingdoms/Beasts are spiritual (not physical/political) Kingdoms.
And the “Season and Time” or the “Time of the End” on earth occurs after the destruction of Daniel’s Fourth Beast,
but before the end of the world


So... you have two (2) problems with your theory of Babylon/Persia/Greece
and EACH of those problems are critical... EACH shows your theories contradict Scripture.
There is no way around the Scriptures I have posted. If you decide to respond to this post
it would be appropriate for you to address EACH of the Scriptures that I have quoted.


.
.

 

[Zao is life]

I doubt this. I never heard that.
The man of sin proclaims himself as god and puts down all theistic worship of anyone besides himself. Am I right?

" . . . the man of lawlessness . . . the son of perdition, Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself frth, saying that he is God." (2 Thess. 2:3,4)


I don't see him being a clergyman or clerical type person. I see him as a secular god. Maybe like atheist Christopher Hitchens only many times worse.

I do not have the habit of reading virtually evil persons EVERYWHERE where "kings of the earth" is written.
That kind of 100% consistent one to one correspondence, I do not make.
I see that here some are committed to seeing God's Jerusalem based enemies whenever and wherever they read the words "kings of the earth."

Many years ago I was taught that the sea represents the Gentile world ofter. And the land represents to Holy Land. Upon this scheme the Antichrist would be of the Gentiles and the false prophet would be out of the nation of Israel.

Now in addition to that years ago I was taugh that that Jewish false prophet might be Judas Iscariot come back from "his own place" to which he was assigned after his betrayal of Judas. And I thought for long time "Well . . . that is probably a speculative stretch, maybe."
Then after some years actually, the thought seemed nore logical to me as perhaps valid.

Why? Well mainly because you have TWO witnesses from the past - Elijah and Moses (though some say it is Enoch and Moses).
And I considered that they are sent to COUNTER the extreme deception on the Devil's side of also sending TWO arch villians from the past.
Ceaasar Nero fits well the meaning of 666, to which I will not go into now. And to PAIR him with another extremely wicked person from the Jewish race, I though who better fits the role than a restored Judas Iscariot.

Anyway, the pair of Elijah and Moses on God's side verses Nero and Judas on Satan's side makes more sense to me than originally thought.


Excuse me. I will have to review some of this before I comment.

The footnote of the Recovery Version has this explanation about the seven heads of the beast:

"The seven kings are seven Caesars of the Roman Empire. The first five "have fallen"; i.e., they died unaturally (Judg. 3:25; 2 Sam. 1:10), 25, 27). Those five are Julius Caesar, Claudius, and Nero. a;; of whom either were murdered or committed suicide before John wrote this book.The sixth, Domitian, who was also murdered, was living when this book was written; therefore, it is said of him that he "is." "The other," the seventh, is Antichrist; he had "not yet come" at that time. When he comes, he will remain only a short time and then will be salin and will be resuscitated by the spirit of the fifth, who is Nero, to become the eighth.

Antichrist will be the coming seventh Caesar. Bit he is also the eighth. According to 13:3. Antichrist will be slain and resuscitated. In that resuscitation the spirit of Nero (the fifth Casesar), which will come up out of the abyss (when Satan is cast down to the earth - 12:10, 13), will animate and resuscitate the dead body of the seventh Ceasar, Antichrist, thereby imitating the resurrection of Christ. This one, composed of the fifth and seventh Ceasairs, is the eighth. Hence, he is "out of the seven,+ having the body of the seventh and the spirit of the fifth. Therefore, he will be all the more capable, all the more intelligent, and all the more powerful to charm, deceive, and allure people, capturing those who do not believe in Christ. It is no womder that people will marvel at the sight of such an extraordinary persomn and will follow him (v.8; 13:3)"


The number of the beast is the number of a man (13:18). This man is Caesar Nero, who is the coming Antichrist who we just saw whose spirit is caused by Satan to come up out of the abyss and inimate the slain and resuscitated body of a coming Ceasar who will be assasinated.

The number represented by the Hebrew letters of the name Caesar Nero is 666, as follows:
But I am having trouble inserting the Hebrew letter fonts. Sorry, I tried. Check chart in RcV for Revelatiom 14:18 (footenote 2)

Greek Hebrew Greek Hebrew
Πέ ---------------- 50 ---------------------- Κάι ---------- 100
ρ -----------------200 --------------------- σα ------------- 60
ω ------------------ 6 --------------------- ρ ------------- 200
ν ------------------ 50 ------------------ ----------
____________________________________________________________
---------------- 306------------------ + ------------- ------360 = 666

Yeah I can see we're poles apart with regard to our understanding of the above things. I can only say that the wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is telling us that the character of the man of sin will be a combination of the characters of two other men mentioned in scripture:

1. Judas Iscariot ("the son of perdition"). The betrayer who - though before the days they were called 'Christians' - was not only known as a follower of Jesus, but was a leader, one of the twelve who had been chosen as apostles. Until the night that Jesus was arrested, none except Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray Jesus. And after Judas ate the morsel that night, Satan entered him.

2. Antiochus IV "Epihpanes" (the epithet he attached to his own name which means, "God manifest"), who banned the Jews from worshiping their God in the way God had instructed them to, cruelly persecuting and murdering those who remained faithful, and placed an idol in the sanctuary of the temple - a statue to Zeus, the king of the gods. He came to power through flattery and intrigue.

Most of the Jews apostatized, except the remnant who came under great tribulation at his hand, but the ground-work for the apostasy had already been laid by the hellenizing Jews who had departed from the pure biblical truth handed down to them, to combine the worship of God with Greek religious beliefs, and adopted Greek culture. Once Antiochus had risen to power, the apostates sealed their apostasy by abandoning the Jewish religion completely, and worshiping Zeus.

Of Antiochus (not the man of sin) it was prophesied beforehand he "shall do according to his will. And he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper until the fury is fulfilled. For that which is decreed shall be done. He will not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god. For he shall magnify himself above all." (Daniel 11:36-37).

The above was fulfilled by Antiochus. It's not talking about the man of sin - but the following IS talking about the man of sin:

Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless the apostasy (Greek ho apostasia) first comes, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

In other words, the two main biblical types for the man of sin are Judas Iscariot and Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The man of sin's character will be a combination of the character of both men, and he will become extremely powerful, because Satan will give him his seat, his power, and great authority, and once he has this authority, he will "open his mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven." (Revelation 13:6). And like Antiochus before him, he will "war with the saints and overcome them." (Revelation 13:7).

His coming is "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thessalonians 2:9) which Revelation 13 tells us will be performed by the false prophet - the beast from the earth who has two horns like a lamb yet speaks like a dragon.

Historically and biblically, the four beasts were (past tense) the kings and kingdoms of Babylon, followed by Media-Persia, followed by Greece, and following the death of Alexander the Great, the kingdom of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

The saints of the last days, not enduring sound doctrine, have already turned aside to fables and interpretations of the scriptures produced in their own imaginations. The apostasy has already begun. As in the days of the rise to power of Antiochus when the hellenizing Jews were causing many to depart from the biblical truth and true faith, many have left biblical truth today and have already turned aside to fables and doctrines produced in their own imaginations.

Many have already turned back to obedience to the law and/or commandments, insisting that obedience to the law and/or the commandments instead of dwelling in Christ through faith in Christ produces the fruit of the Spirit, which fulfills all the law and commandments, and against which there is no law.

Many others are already deluded, believing that God's temple - the temple the man of sin will seat himself up in - is a physical temple (that will be built in) Jerusalem (whereas God's only temple is Christ and those who dwell in Him); and they have already left sound doctrine and biblical truth regarding things like Antiochus and the four beasts of Daniel, as well as the history of Babylon and its destruction,

having become self-deluded into completely conflating the already fulfilled history contained in the biblical types with the antitypes, so that as though wars and battles are yet to take place that have already taken place, such as the battles of Antiochus mentioned in Daniel, and (even long before Daniel), all the battles of nations against Babylon mentioned in Isiah and Jeremiah etc,

they have dragged many of the already fulfilled prophetic types out of the Old Testament, and dropped them into a folder titled, "the end of this age and the return of Christ", insisting that these things are about to come to pass, instead of understanding that these are merely all types, and the biblical truth is that this is the only reason the same language and metaphor contained in prophecies regarding Babylon and its destruction - prophecies which have already been fulfilled - is used again in the Revelation.

They have refused to believe that the language and metaphor used in the Revelation to describe the end of this age and the return of Christ includes the same metaphor of "sun being darkened and moon turning to blood and stars falling from the heavens" etc that was used to describe the fall of ancient Babylon.

- but we have not been given the details of how what is to come will unfold - we have only been told that the apostate saints, together with all unbelievers, will come under strong delusion

- in the case of the apostates because they departed from biblical truth and sound doctrine to believe their own fables produced in their own human imaginations - just as their hellenizing Jewish types, and just like their fornicating Jewish types before them, in the days leading up to the destruction of their city and temple by Babylon.

Too many saints have already departed from biblical truth and sound Christian doctrine.

So it's easy to see the strong delusion that's coming. For example, IF say, a physical temple is indeed built in Jerusalem and an alliance of nations such as Russia and Iran and Turkey indeed were to invade modern-day Israel, this will be an immensely strong delusion for them - especially if the man of sin led a war against all those armies - and won -

NOT that I would want anyone to believe any speculation such as I have just offered above about the details of the scenarios to unfold before Christ returns - whether my speculation or their own speculations - because it is precisely this kind of speculation produced by human imagination and departure from biblical truth (the apostasy) that has caused all the confusion that is leading to the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Copy @DavidPT

 

[oikonomia]

Yeah I can see we're poles apart with regard to our understanding of the above things. I can only say that the wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is telling us that the character of the man of sin will be a combination of the characters of two other men mentioned in scripture:

Oh, he will have a dreadful of combinations of the worst traits of the world's villians. I am just saying 2 Thess 2:4 is pretty clear about thoughts of totally usurping worship to God. After all this was Satan's original sin.

1. Judas Iscariot ("the son of perdition"). The betrayer who - though before the days they were called 'Christians' - was not only known as a follower of Jesus, but was a leader, one of the twelve who had been chosen as apostles. Until the night that Jesus was arrested, none except Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray Jesus. And after Judas ate the morsel that night, Satan entered him.

Horrible, isn't it? Are you saying you think Judas like characteristics will be with this Antichrist?
I think that accompanying false prophet will be Judas or Judas like.

If this happens in out lifetimes we do not have to opt for being here to find out.
We can obey the Lord's exhortation to pray and live that we be counted worthy to escape these things which are coming to pass.
"But be watchful at every time, berseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)
That would be the response of obedience. I do not want to be so curious that I neglect the first pre-tribulation rapture of watching and obedience.

2. Antiochus IV "Epihpanes" (the epithet he attached to his own name which means, "God manifest"), who banned the Jews from worshiping their God in the way God had instructed them to, cruelly persecuting and murdering those who remained faithful, and placed an idol in the sanctuary of the temple - a statue to Zeus, the king of the gods. He came to power through flattery and intrigue.

Yes, From all I've heard Antiochus was terrible to the Jews.

Most of the Jews apostatized, except the remnant who came under great tribulation at his hand, but the ground-work for the apostasy had already been laid by the hellenizing Jews who had departed from the pure biblical truth handed down to them, to combine the worship of God with Greek religious beliefs, and adopted Greek culture. Once Antiochus had risen to power, the apostates sealed their apostasy by abandoning the Jewish religion completely, and worshiping Zeus.

But are you suggesting that we tell God that He is not allowed to let another great tribulation occur on earth because there was already great tribulation during the days of Anrtochus? It is curious to me that so many posters feel that tribulation in the past ties God's hands so that ever afterward there could be no end time "great tribulation."

Of Antiochus (not the man of sin) it was prophesied beforehand he "shall do according to his will. And he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper until the fury is fulfilled. For that which is decreed shall be done. He will not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god. For he shall magnify himself above all." (Daniel 11:36-37).

Okay. Does this mean to you there can be NO future "man of sin?" . . . no future self exaltant narcacist with world power to come? . . . no future strong man speaking against God or gods? . . . no man seeking to change laws and customs far from Judeo / Christian ttradition?

Regardless of arguing "See how well Antiochus fits the descriiption" nothing stops an end of the age figure of worse character and farther outreach. You know that Lord did say about the tribulation that it would be of a nature that HAS NEVER BEEN before or ever WILL BE again.

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world until now, nor shall by any means ever occur." (Matt. 24:21)

With a background of, say, Noah's flood or Antiochus's defilement, that is really saying something.

The above was fulfilled by Antiochus. It's not talking about the man of sin - but the following IS talking about the man of sin:

Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless the apostasy (Greek ho apostasia) first comes, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

This must be something to happen once the temple is rebuilt. The Dome of the Mosque occupies a central part there right now.
Again though, if we heed the Lord's command to watch and walk with God as Enoch walked with God, we may witness these terrible events from ABOVE. That is until we come DOWN With Christ as His bridal army to defeat Antchrist and his armies withthe Lord.

"And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev. 19:14)

"Hurry and come, All you surrounding nations, and be gathered. There cause Your mighty ones descend O Jehovah!" (Joel 3:11)

"These will make war with the Lamb,and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of Lords and King of kings. and they who are with Him, the called and the chosen and faithful, will also overcome them," (Rev. 17:14)

In other words, the two main biblical types for the man of sin are Judas Iscariot and Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

If you read First and Second KIngs you can see MANY very bad kings. Jeroboam, Ahab, Baasha, Ahaziah, Jehoram etc.
History did not conclude with any of them. There were more to come. And the final Antichrist, killed and resusicitated given all the authority of Satan is yet to come, and the worst. I mean as bad as Antiochus IV was, and Judas Iscariot a betrayer.

The man of sin's character will be a combination of the character of both men, and he will become extremely powerful, because Satan will give him his seat, his power, and great authority, and once he has this authority, he will "open his mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven." (Revelation 13:6). And like Antiochus before him, he will "war with the saints and overcome them." (Revelation 13:7).

I think we are expecting the same thing now.
Do ypu think believers who do not know about Antiochus IV are spiritually not right?
It is good to know some history, and even how past figures were previews of end times events. I do not judge a man's spirituality by this though.

 

[oikonomia]

His coming is "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thessalonians 2:9) which Revelation 13 tells us will be performed by the false prophet - the beast from the earth who has two horns like a lamb yet speaks like a dragon.

Historically and biblically, the four beasts were (past tense) the kings and kingdoms of Babylon, followed by Media-Persia, followed by Greece, and following the death of Alexander the Great, the kingdom of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

That fourth beast must be the Roman Empire. The two legs standing for the east and west of it.
The politics of much of the world extends down from those long legs even to today - in Roman concepts and calender time.
And you have the intervening time filled with the influence of the Roman Catholic Church.

The toes of iron mixed with clay I believe characterize the mixture of autocracies and dictatorships of the world in the last days.
The unstable and unpeaceful cooexistence is not hope for the world. The coming of Christ with His overcoming victores so rewarded to accompany Him will be the mountail of the kingdom replacing the image from the toes up. Christ the stone cut out without hands smashes the human image and nothing is left of histories godless empirers. He grows into a mountian to fill the whole earth. The overcomers reigning with Him are part of that governmental mountain. (Daniel 2:34-35, 45).

I am sure you're familiar with these passasges.

The saints of the last days, not enduring sound doctrine, have already turned aside to fables and interpretations of the scriptures produced in their own imaginations.

There are much more serious forsaking of sound truth than that.
The whole manner in which men establish churches is not according to God's ordination of one city per one local church. (Rev. 1:11-12)
Division is the most self defeating master stroke of the Devil to hinder the blessing of life and power to the Christians.

Look at the letter to the Corithian church. The very FIRST problem, of many problems, Paul addressed was their division. The body of Christ in the city of Corinth could not be divided because it is one divine LIFE in all the Christians there.

That is a more serious apostasy then identifying who the false prophet and the antichrist may be.
Where the brother dwell together in the unity of God's indwelling life there is the blessing of life forevermore.

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity! it is likethe fine oil upon the head that ran down upon the beard, Upon Aaron's beard. That ran down upon the hem of his garments;
LIke the dew of Hermon that came down upon the mountains of Zion.
For there Jehovah COMMANDED the blessing: Life forever." (Psalm 133)

There has been plenty of discussion here on Revelation. Few here have paid any attention to the signigicance of the seven golden lampstands of the seven local churches. It is no accident the the only church which is not rebuked but told simply to HOLD ON to the crown that they already have is the Brotherly Love - church in Philadelhpia.

She has little power, No great spiritual giants to speak of are her boast. But with little power she has brotherly love and endurance to not deny the name of the Lord alone. She has the key to entering into the next age properly and being solidly made pillars in the New Jerusalem to go out no MORE.

Not too many here are paying heed to this praised church. To them alone He says "I come quickly' hold fast what you have that no one take your crown." (Rev. 3:11) They are the only church of the seven to which He says "I come QUICKLY."

Having said that, I hasten to add that to EVERY church there is a call for some to OVERCOME and a reward promised to all who overcome.
And to every church there is the exhortation to HEAR what the Spirit says to the churches.

The speed which Christians hurry over these chapters to examine frogs, horns, false prophets, hails, earthquakes, and beasts shows we are still prone to miss important things God wants to reveal.

The promise to be kept from the very HOUR of the grreat world wide trial is given to the saints here in brotherly love and dwelling together in unty, even if in lesser matters difference of opinions are held. See Romans 14.15 on receiving one another for the practical church life.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from contemplating last things and past things. I just come back a little to the real apostasy of broken unity which is the most self defeating problem to the church. And it is known by our advasary that this is the master stroke to keep him from being crushed under the feet of the prevailing local churches. They have the best chance of producing the overcomers to woo the Lord back.

"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Romans16:20)

This is very important in the spieitual warfare which you know is nor against flesh and blood, but against world rulers and principalities in the heavenlies trying to stave off their being overcome by the believers on earth saturated with Christ's life and nature standing in oneness.

 

[oikonomia]

The apostasy has already begun. As in the days of the rise to power of Antiochus when the hellenizing Jews were causing many to depart from the biblical truth and true faith, many have left biblical truth today and have already turned aside to fables and doctrines produced in their own imaginations.

Apostasy is a strong word. Some differenes in opinions on interpretations do not sink to the level of apostasy.
Even a Preterist or a hyper futurist has to be ready to give an account to the Lord Jesus as to how they lived DAILY - either in the grace of Christ's indwelling presence or by something else. That something may be even good but not Christ and a distraction FROM Christ.

Orthodox has in its definition something concerning FEET and WALKING.
Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh.

The Lord comes for a critical mass (so to speak) of those WALKING by the Spirit. This walking is their watching. And this watching is there vigilance. And this vigilance (even if they should die before the end times) will result in accompanying Him as the overcoming more than conquerors which He well EXPECTS we should be to normal.

The departure from the walk in LIFE and the unity in LIFE and the overcoming in Christ's life is most serious.
To know prophecy is important also. But just knowing objectively will not be what the saints need if the WALK and WATCHING are sick and weak.

Many have already turned back to obedience to the law and/or commandments, insisting that obedience to the law and/or the commandments instead of dwelling in Christ through faith in Christ produces the fruit of the Spirit, which fulfills all the law and commandments, and against which there is no law.

Very true.

Many others are already deluded, believing that God's temple - the temple the man of sin will seat himself up in - is a physical temple (that will be built in) Jerusalem (whereas God's only temple is Christ and those who dwell in Him); and they have already left sound doctrine and biblical truth regarding things like Antiochus and the four beasts of Daniel, as well as the history of Babylon and its destruction,

If that is a mistake - I mean whether a Jerusalem Temple will go up again, is not as serious.
The Bible saying individually we are a temple of the Holy Spirit and corporately a local church is the temple of God doesn't dictate that there could be no temple of God physically built again in Jerusalem.

I think your best bet is to give heed to the former and not be unaware that the latter is as real as the reformation of the very nation of Israel in 1948.

Our body as temples of the Holy Spirit and the practical church as the temple of God do not mean to me "There will be no rebuilding of a Jerusalem temple for a future Antichrist to sit in." The dichotomy between the two concepts is not necessary and false.

The habitation of God in spirit, the buildng of the organic house of God is more important to the new convnant people.

having become self-deluded into completely conflating the already fulfilled history contained in the biblical types with the antitypes, so that as though wars and battles are yet to take place that have already taken place, such as the battles of Antiochus mentioned in Daniel, and (even long before Daniel), all the battles of nations against Babylon mentioned in Isiah and Jeremiah etc,

they have dragged many of the already fulfilled prophetic types out of the Old Testament, and dropped them into a folder titled, "the end of this age and the return of Christ", insisting that these things are about to come to pass, instead of understanding that these are merely all types, and the biblical truth is that this is the only reason the same language and metaphor contained in prophecies regarding Babylon and its destruction - prophecies which have already been fulfilled - is used again in the Revelation.

We can talk more agout this latter.
I must take a break now.

 

[Zao is life]

That fourth beast must be the Roman Empire. The two legs standing for the east and west of it.
The politics of much of the world extends down from those long legs even to today - in Roman concepts and calender time.
And you have the intervening time filled with the influence of the Roman Catholic Church.

The toes of iron mixed with clay I believe characterize the mixture of autocracies and dictatorships of the world in the last days.
The unstable and unpeaceful cooexistence is not hope for the world. The coming of Christ with His overcoming victores so rewarded to accompany Him will be the mountail of the kingdom replacing the image from the toes up. Christ the stone cut out without hands smashes the human image and nothing is left of histories godless empirers. He grows into a mountian to fill the whole earth. The overcomers reigning with Him are part of that governmental mountain. (Daniel 2:34-35, 45).

We are poles apart in what we believe about these things, as I said, but just to correct the above:

Nebuchannezzar's image skips any mention of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and goes straight from the Greek Empire (belly and thighs of bronze) to the Roman Empire (legs of iron).

Nebuchanezzar's image has five parts to it. Daniel only mentions four beasts. You have conflated the legs of iron in Nebuchaadnezzar's image with Daniel's fourth kingdom. Daniel's fourth kingdom is talking only about the kingdom of Antiochus IV Epiphanes - before the days of the Roman Empire -

- but Daniel's prophecy regarding the fourth kingdom closes (at the close of Daniel 7 and with Daniel 12) by projecting to the time of the end of our age, to the time of the antichrist, making it very clear that the only subject in Daniel's fourth beast - i.e Antiochus IV Epiphanes - is a type of the man of sin.

Both Nebuchadnezzar's image (feet of iron and clay with their ten toes) and Daniel's fourth beast therefore close with the end of this age. The ten kings in Daniel's fourth kingdom - 3 of whom historically were uprooted in order to make way for Antiochus' rise to power - are not the same as the ten kings of the end-times beast - and this is why Revelation 17 says absolutely nothing about three of the ten kings being uprooted. Because they are not the same ten kings. The prophecy regarding Daniel's fourth beast has been fulfilled in its time, in Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The prophecy regarding the legs of iron in Nebuchadnezzar's image too, has been fulfilled in its time. The only part of these two prophecies remaining to be fulfilled are the rise of the man of sin and the ten kings of Revelation's beast, and the kingdom being handed over to the saints. It's delusional to take the details of the wars and activities of Daniel's fourth beast's king and apply it to the end of this age, past understanding merely that he (A4E) is one of the two types of the man of sin/son of perdition, a.k.a 'the antichrist' - and understanding the significance of that type, as well as of the type of Judas Iscariot.

 

[DavidPT]

We are poles apart in what we believe about these things, as I said, but just to correct the above:

Nebuchannezzar's image skips any mention of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and goes straight from the Greek Empire (belly and thighs of bronze) to the Roman Empire (legs of iron).

Nebuchanezzar's image has five parts to it. Daniel only mentions four beasts. You have conflated the legs of iron in Nebuchaadnezzar's image with Daniel's fourth kingdom. Daniel's fourth kingdom is talking only about the kingdom of Antiochus IV Epiphanes - before the days of the Roman Empire -

- but Daniel's prophecy regarding the fourth kingdom closes (at the close of Daniel 7 and with Daniel 12) by projecting to the time of the end of our age, to the time of the antichrist, making it very clear that the only subject in Daniel's fourth beast - i.e Antiochus IV Epiphanes - is a type of the man of sin.

Both Nebuchadnezzar's image (feet of iron and clay with their ten toes) and Daniel's fourth beast therefore close with the end of this age. The ten kings in Daniel's fourth kingdom - 3 of whom historically were uprooted in order to make way for Antiochus' rise to power - are not the same as the ten kings of the end-times beast - and this is why Revelation 17 says absolutely nothing about three of the ten kings being uprooted. Because they are not the same ten kings. The prophecy regarding Daniel's fourth beast has been fulfilled in its time, in Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The prophecy regarding the legs of iron in Nebuchadnezzar's image too, has been fulfilled in its time. The only part of these two prophecies remaining to be fulfilled are the rise of the man of sin and the ten kings of Revelation's beast, and the kingdom being handed over to the saints. It's delusional to take the details of the wars and activities of Daniel's fourth beast's king and apply it to the end of this age, past understanding merely that he (A4E) is one of the two types of the man of sin/son of perdition, a.k.a 'the antichrist' - and understanding the significance of that type, as well as of the type of Judas Iscariot.

Here's an article I came across recently, below at bottom of this post. It makes some compelling arguments, IMO. According to the article, though A4E seems like a good fit for both Daniel 8 and 11 to some interpreters, there are valid reasons why he is not found in either of those chapters. It's worth a read if you care to look at the article. As to me, I already agree that some of Daniel 8 and some of Daniel 11 is involving events that have already been fulfilled ages ago, I simply do not believe that is the case with those entire chapters. Speaking for myself, I look for timing clues. And when I see timing clues such as the time of the end, I don't see that making sense if applying it to the days of A4E.

Anyway, here's a link to that article if you care to check it out.

The Antichrist in Daniel 11 is not Antiochus IV.

Critical scholars propose that Antiochus IV is the Antichrist in Daniel but he was only a type of a later and much greater Antichrist.

revelationbyjesuschrist.com

 

[Zao is life]

Here's an article I came across recently, below at bottom of this post. It makes some compelling arguments, IMO. According to the article, though A4E seems like a good fit for both Daniel 8 and 11 to some interpreters, there are valid reasons why he is not found in either of those chapters. It's worth a read if you care to look at the article. As to me, I already agree that some of Daniel 8 and some of Daniel 11 is involving events that have already been fulfilled ages ago, I simply do not believe that is the case with those entire chapters. Speaking for myself, I look for timing clues. And when I see timing clues such as the time of the end, I don't see that making sense if applying it to the days of A4E.

Anyway, here's a link to that article if you care to check it out.

The Antichrist in Daniel 11 is not Antiochus IV.

Critical scholars propose that Antiochus IV is the Antichrist in Daniel but he was only a type of a later and much greater Antichrist.

revelationbyjesuschrist.com

Thank you David. I will read it.

 

[Zao is life]

Here's an article I came across recently, below at bottom of this post. It makes some compelling arguments, IMO. According to the article, though A4E seems like a good fit for both Daniel 8 and 11 to some interpreters, there are valid reasons why he is not found in either of those chapters. It's worth a read if you care to look at the article. As to me, I already agree that some of Daniel 8 and some of Daniel 11 is involving events that have already been fulfilled ages ago, I simply do not believe that is the case with those entire chapters. Speaking for myself, I look for timing clues. And when I see timing clues such as the time of the end, I don't see that making sense if applying it to the days of A4E.

Anyway, here's a link to that article if you care to check it out.

The Antichrist in Daniel 11 is not Antiochus IV.

Critical scholars propose that Antiochus IV is the Antichrist in Daniel but he was only a type of a later and much greater Antichrist.

revelationbyjesuschrist.com

So here is the history according to Matthew Henry:

Note Demtrius was the heir to the throne, who was supposed to accede to the throne after his father's death - but this is what A4E did:

QUOTE
By a trick he (A4E) got his elder brother's son, Demetrius, to be sent a hostage to Rome, in exchange for him, contrary to the cartel; and, his elder brother being made away with by Heliodorus (Daniel 11:20), he took the kingdom.

The states of Syria did not give it to him (Daniel 11:21), because they knew it belonged to his elder brother's son, nor did he get it by the sword, but came in peaceably, pretending to reign for his brother's son, Demetrius, then a hostage at Rome.

But with the help of Eumenes and Attalus, neighbouring princes, he gained an interest in the people, and by flatteries obtained the kingdom, established himself in it, and crushed Heliodorus, who made head against him with the arms of a flood; those that opposed him were overflown and broken before him, even the prince of the covenant, his nephew, the rightful heir, whom he pretended to covenant with that he would resign to him whenever he should return, Daniel 11:22. But (Daniel 11:23) after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully, as one whose avowed maxim it is that princes ought not to be bound by their word any longer than it is for their interest. UNQUOTE

But let's not lose sight of the wood for the forest. My point is this:

We know that there was an apostasy from the true faith during A4E's reign. We know that he claimed to be the manifestation of the Deity and placed a statue of Zeus, the father/king of the gods in the sanctuary, abolished all forms of Jewish worship and murdered the faithful Jews - those who he could get his hands on (the Maccabees succeeded in getting A4E out of Jerusalem when his attention was taken away by getting engaged in a battle elsewhere).

We know that Judas Iscariot is the only other person named "the son of perdition" in the New Testament.

So we know that both A4E and Judas are the chief biblical examples, the 'types' of the man of sin. Obviously there are others - Nebuchadnezzar, Nero in the 1st century, etc. But it's clear that the wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is meant to immediately bring to mind two historical characters:

1. Judas Iscariot
2. Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Imagine you lived in Thessalonika in the 1st century and were a member of the church there when 2 Thessalonians 2 was first read to you and the others in church. A4E had ruled from 175 BC until his death in 164 BC. It was not that long ago for the Thessalonians to immediately recognize the person exalting himself in the temple and the apostasy associated with his appearance as being Antiochus 2.0 and Judas Iscariot 2.0 ("the son of perdition"), i.e whenever he appears.

So once we realize this, we realize that Daniel's fourth beast - if it says anything about the Roman Empire at all (I'm not discounting that somehow it might have) - nevertheless it's mainly and (just about) all about the kingdom of A4E

- and in exactly the same way that Neb's feet and toes relate to the final kingdom, so Daniel 7 and 12 speak as though this fourth beast of Daniel will be destroyed by Christ, and the kingdom given to the saints of the Most High - which we know is not the kingdom that Christ will destroy - so this means that just as 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is meant to take our minds back to both Judas Iscariot AND Antiochus IV Epiphanes, so Daniel 7's close and Daniel 12 are meant to take our minds forward so that we see Daniel's fourth kingdom as a type of the antichrist's kingdom.

* The way Daniel's fourth beast finds his end as per Daniel 7 and Daniel 12 takes us forward to the return of Christ; and
* The way 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is written takes us back to both Judas Iscariot and to Daniel's 4th beast (and to A4E).

I don't know if you're at least following me (even if you're not agreeing with me).

@DavidPT Sorry brother I'm always editing and adding after posting.

 

[Jipsah]

Over 100 views and not ONE VERSE offered to refute anything said.
Don't feel bad, this information was provided to over 200 theologians in the best Seminaries in America
and NONE of them could refute the information... so it's not likely someone on this forum can.

Gibberish is always dificult to "refute".