The fifth seal great tribulation martyrs

[BABerean2]

To answer your question. John did not call it a resurrection so I wouldn't either.

The first resurrection John speaks of in Revelation says they were killed because they were testifying of Christ like Peter or Paul were killed.

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

What do you called it when someone is killed for preaching the gospel of Christ?

If you told a group of unbiased witnesses a person was passed from death to life, what would the majority of them call it.


John saw "souls". Where are souls found?


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


When is the judgment of the living and the dead according to the Apostle Paul?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Can you show us any mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

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[Douggg]

The Gog/Magog battle is the battle of Armageddon, as proven by the article in the link below.
However, the author's conclusion has some problems, based on his own article.

Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

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I am not asking for a link. Nor whether it is Armageddon or not.

I am asking you who does God defend in the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 ?

It is a simple question. The answer is right in the text. I am testing your "two peoples of God" objection - that you brought up.

 

[BABerean2]

I am not asking for a link. I am asking you who does God defend
in the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 ?

Is it those James is talking about below? If James is not talking to Israel, who is he talking to?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Or, would it be those found below?

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


What do you think?

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[shilohsfoal]

John also wrote about two resurrections in John chapter 5.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

What would you call it when a person is passed from death unto life?


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

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If you told a group of unbiased witnesses a person was passed from death to life, what would the majority of them call it.


John saw "souls". Where are souls found?


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


When is the judgment of the living and the dead according to the Apostle Paul?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Can you show us any mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

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Yes I can. It would be those outside of his kingdom.
That would be those mentioned in revelation 20:8.

Why did you ignore my question?
What do you call someone who was killed for testifying of Christ such as Paul or Peter?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[Douggg]

Can you show an 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation?

They are 7 angels, that had 7 trumpets, which there are voices heard when the angels sound.

There are not 8 angels sounding their trumpets. Your question is incomplete. It should have been "can you show an 8th angel sounding his trumpet with the voices?"

The answer is no there is no 8th angel sounding, and so what?

 

[Douggg]

Is it those James is talking about below? If James is not talking to Israel, who is he talking to?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Or, would it be those found below?

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


What do you think?

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I am asking you what is in Ezekiel 38-39 text. Who does God defend in that text? Quote from the text of Ezekiel 38-39.

 

[iamlamad]

Who does God defend in the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 ?

Great question!

 

[iamlamad]

The text below does not say what you are claiming.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Christ returning as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16 proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

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...And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying...

If they did not say it, they John was in error.

 

[iamlamad]

John also wrote about two resurrections in John chapter 5.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

What would you call it when a person is passed from death unto life?


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

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Do you really NOT KNOW the difference between one being born again and one being resurrected from the dead? And you are here trying to teach others? Reminds me of 1 Cor. 14:38

 

[BABerean2]

Do you really NOT KNOW the difference between one being born again and one being resurrected from the dead? And you are here trying to teach others? Reminds me of 1 Cor. 14:38

I know that condemnation of others often comes from those who have weak Bible doctrines. The behavioral guidelines of this forum discourage the practice.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

(Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson on problems with the doctrine he once believed.)

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[keras]

I am not asking for a link. Nor whether it is Armageddon or not.

I am asking you who does God defend in the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 ?

It is a simple question. The answer is right in the text. I am testing your "two peoples of God" objection - that you brought up.

As iamlamad said: Great question!
It is the one where people who believe in a redeemed Jewish Israel, go off the rails.

I have not seen anyone here come up with the answer that fits with what is said in Ezekiel 38, or elsewhere in the Bible.
Eze 38 says; they are a people living in the holy Land, which has recently been restored from ruin and living in peace and prosperity, but totally undefended. They are Israelites who have migrated to there from all the nations.

The first thing we need to do, is the identify who exactly is the Israel of God now.
That they are NOT the current Jewish State of Israel can be well proven, despite the objections of those whose beliefs hinge on there being an 'Israel' on earth while they go to live in heaven.
There were no Jewish Israelites from the time of King Rehoboam, when the House of Israel separated from the House of Judah. They have never yet rejoined as Ezekiel 37 proves. Jesus said: the Kingdom is taken for you Jews and given to a people who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

Who 'bears the proper fruit'? Righteous, faithful Christians, that's who. WE are the Overcomers for God, His Victorious ones and His Israelite people.
As Isaiah 62:1-5 tells us; the Lord will make the Land desolate, on His terrible Day of fiery wrath, the forthcoming Sixth Seal event. Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
The new inhabitants will be His sheep, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and His righteous people, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26.

So it is us that Gog/Magog attacks. The Lord will motivate them to do it, so as He can show us and the world His power. Ezekiel 38:23

 

[Douggg]

As iamlamad said: Great question!
It is the one where people who believe in a redeemed Jewish Israel, go off the rails.

I have not seen anyone here come up with the answer that fits with what is said in Ezekiel 38, or elsewhere in the Bible.
Eze 38 says; they are a people living in the holy Land, which has recently been restored from ruin and living in peace and prosperity, but totally undefended. They are Israelites who have migrated to there from all the nations.

The first thing we need to do, is the identify who exactly is the Israel of God now.
That they are NOT the current Jewish State of Israel can be well proven, despite the objections of those whose beliefs hinge on there being an 'Israel' on earth while they go to live in heaven.
There were no Jewish Israelites from the time of King Rehoboam, when the House of Israel separated from the House of Judah. They have never yet rejoined as Ezekiel 37 proves. Jesus said: the Kingdom is taken for you Jews and given to a people who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

Who 'bears the proper fruit'? Righteous, faithful Christians, that's who. WE are the Overcomers for God, His Victorious ones and His Israelite people.
As Isaiah 62:1-5 tells us; the Lord will make the Land desolate, on His terrible Day of fiery wrath, the forthcoming Sixth Seal event. Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
The new inhabitants will be His sheep, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and His righteous people, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26.

So it is us that Gog/Magog attacks. The Lord will motivate them to do it, so as He can show us and the world His power. Ezekiel 38:23

Wrong answer. It is not talking about Christians.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

 

[BABerean2]

Wrong answer. It is not talking about Christians.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Based on the scripture below, there is now no Israel outside of the New Covenant.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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[Douggg]

Based on the scripture below, there is now no Israel outside of the New Covenant.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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I am asking you who God defends in the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38-39? Copy and paste from that text.

I am not asking you what new covenant faith group doctrine is.

latter days and latter years on my Olivet discourse chart is taken from Ezekiel 38:8 and Ezekiel 38:16.

 

[BABerean2]

I am not asking you what new covenant faith group doctrine is.

Do you deny the fulfillment of the new covenant promised to Israel, and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found now fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18 ?


Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


If you are not in a New Covenant "faith group", what kind of church body do you belong to?

.

 

[Douggg]

Do you deny the fulfillment of the new covenant promised to Israel, and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found now fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18 ?

That is not the question at hand. I am challenging your group's objection of two peoples of God. You are evading the question of who does God defend in the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39?

Copy and paste from the text of Ezekiel 38-39.

If you are not in a New Covenant "faith group", what kind of church body do you belong to?

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

But that is not the question I am asking you, in challenging your new covenant faith group's doctrine - objecting to two peoples of God. Which your group is using to justify your group's claim of being Israel and being Jews.

 

[keras]

Wrong answer. It is not talking about Christians.
Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

'them' does refer to ancient Israel; My people Israel. I do not deny this.
What happened to ancient Israel? They were sent into exile about 2730 years ago. But note well that their decreed exile was for a set time; Ezekiel 4:4 ....390 years.
This was increased because of their continuing apostasy by 7 X. Leviticus 26:18
Therefore their exile is nearly over and they will return to the holy Land, this time as the Lords faithful Christian people.
Jesus came to save us, Matthew 15:24 and, Praise Him, He was successful!

That is not the question at hand. I am challenging your group's objection of two peoples of God. You are evading the question of who does God defend in the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39?

If you believe that there are two peoples of God, namely Christians and Jews, then you are sorely deceived. John 17:20-23, 1 Peter 1:9-10, Titus 2:14
Those who were born to the Kingdom, but rejected Jesus; will be thrown out. Matthew 8:12, Matthew 13:40-43
The Kingdom is given to those people who have accepted Jesus now and who bear the fruit of righteousness. Matthew 21:43
Of those who call themselves Jews; only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13

 

[BABerean2]

I am challenging your group's objection of two peoples of God.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

It is not my group.

It is the words of Jesus found above.

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[Douggg]

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

It is not my group.

It is the words of Jesus found above.

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So you are admitting that you are not Israel, not a Jew, and that there are two peoples of God, one group saved, the other group not yet saved?

And that the not yet saved group is Israel, the Jews, and in Ezekiel 38-39, they are the people of God in those two chapters?

 

[Douggg]

Therefore their exile is nearly over and they will return to the holy Land, this time as the Lords faithful Christian people.

No, they have returned to the land still in unbelief in Jesus.

It is not until the middle of the 7 year, 70th week that they turn to Jesus, in Revelation 12:10. After their perceived messiah, King of Israel, anointed by the false prophet, Antichrist will have betrayed them and the land of Israel, and of God being their God which they committed to on Mt. Sinai.

There is no cataclysmic event in Ezekiel 38-39 preceding their return from the nations in the latter day, and latter years.