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The fatal flaw of Universalism

Charlie24

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Overall, they did a magnificent job from a literary POV, and I consider the KJV to be one of the chief pillars of the English language.

From a theological/theo-illogical POV, I see the KJV as the predictable outcome of the scholarship of the time, the expected outcome of the Anglican brand of Christianity - only once removed from the RCC, and I worry how much the king's instructions altered the result. In it, I have seen bias, bad word choices, and the imposition of theology which comes from suspect sources. I will not judge on whether the text was inspired or not, but I have moved on to other Bible versions.

We KJV folks believe Gods word that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2Tim. 3:16. We call it the "Authorized Version."

If God did inspire the KJV, why would He inspire another version that differs in any way from His original inspiring of the KJV?

I can understand a version that takes out thee, thou, or any other words that would bring the language up to today's standard, but nothing that places doubt on the original translations inspired by God.
 
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RaymondG

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We KJV folks believe Gods word that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2Tim. 3:16. We call it the "Authorized Version."

If God did inspire the KJV, why would He inspire another version that differs in any way from His original inspiring of the KJV?

I can understand a version that takes out thee, thou, or any other words that would bring the language up to today's standard, but nothing that places doubt on the original translations inspired by God.
I like the KJV as well.....very poetic. However, if we use 2Tim. 3:16 to deny inspiration to all writings outside of the KJV bible, we would have to , also, remove inspiration from most of the NT and from that very verse......as it could not have been considered scripture as it was being spoken....
 
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Lazarus Short

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We KJV folks believe Gods word that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2Tim. 3:16. We call it the "Authorized Version."

If God did inspire the KJV, why would He inspire another version that differs in any way from His original inspiring of the KJV?

I can understand a version that takes out thee, thou, or any other words that would bring the language up to today's standard, but nothing that places doubt on the original translations inspired by God.

The fatal flaw in what you say above is that Second Timothy 3:16 was written many, many years before the KJV was translated. Paul was referring to what he had as Scripture at that time, which was what we today call the Old Testament. The epistle he was writing to Timothy was simply what we call today a letter.
 
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Charlie24

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I like the KJV as well.....very poetic. However, if we use 2Tim. 3:16 to deny inspiration to all writings outside of the KJV bible, we would have to , also, remove inspiration from most of the NT and from that very verse......as it could not have been considered scripture as it was being spoken....
So, if someone translates a version that contradicts the "inspired word" of the KJV, that means that Gods inspiring of the KJV becomes questionable?
 
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Charlie24

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The fatal flaw in what you say above is that Second Timothy 3:16 was written many, many years before the KJV was translated. Paul was referring to what he had as Scripture at that time, which was what we today call the Old Testament. The epistle he was writing to Timothy was simply what we call today a letter.

And there lies your misunderstanding of Gods Word.

God inspired the writing of His word long ago, and when it was translated 400 years ago into English, was not that same God there to inspire His written word for us?
 
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RaymondG

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So, if someone translates a version that contradicts the "inspired word" of the KJV, that means that Gods inspiring of the KJV becomes questionable?
There are verses in the the KJV itself that, to the mind, seem to contradict themselves. Our goal should be to have the Word hidden within us....no longer to be lead by or confused by words in books, or words spoken by others.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Dear BNR: By every one I assume it is Dr. Strong. LOL.

Perhaps you should expand your help line to the Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament by William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich for a start?

No actually that’s also according to vine’s, University of Chicago Logion Lexicon, Thayer’s dictionary, Perseus digital library, and Westcott and Hort, in fact every single lexicon I’ve seen all agree, all except for your single source.
 
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Charlie24

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There are verses in the the KJV itself that, to the mind, seem to contradict themselves. Our goal should be to have the Word hidden within us....no longer to be lead by or confused by words in books, or words spoken by others.

When we see what appears to be contradictions in scripture, this is when we need to search the scripture to find, why is this. If you search, you will find.

I have found many such things in scripture, I have found the answer for most, but have come to the conclusion that some things such as the contradiction in Acts 2:38 was allowed by God for us to search His salvation thoroughly to find the absolute truth.

Without taking the time to study the deep things of God, we will be lead off into error.
 
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FineLinen

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The context of scripture determines this FL.

I am by no means a scholar of the Greek language in the true sense of the word "scholar."

I have studied the fundamentals of Greek in Bible school, I use it often to clarify scripture and gain a better understanding.

I have never, I repeat never, seen anyone use the Greek so out of context of scripture as is being demonstrated in your posts.

Dear Charles: The scope of your experience is quite evident. Perhaps you will expand your neighborhood, but it will require ephphatha.

The rule of grammer 101 has absolutely nothing to do with context.

An adjective does not hold greater scope than the noun upon which it is based!
 
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FineLinen

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No actually that’s also according to vine’s, University of Chicago Logion Lexicon, Thayer’s dictionary, Perseus digital library, and Westcott and Hort, in fact every single lexicon I’ve seen all agree, all except for your single source.

The Greek Words Aiõn and Aiõnios | Concordant Publishing Concern

The Scholars

To start with, Rotherham’s The Emphasized Bible, which is a literal word for word translation of the Bible, translates the word aionios here and elsewhere in the Bible as “Age Abiding.” You can see this for yourself at the following website.

Matthew 25 - Rotherham's Emphasized Bible EBR 1902 Online Bible Translation

Young’s Literal Translation, also a literal word for word translation of the Bible, translates the word aionios here and everywhere else as, “Age During.”

Read & Study The Bible - Daily Verse, Scripture by Topic, Stories

The Concordant Version translates it as “Eonian” in the sense of pertaining to an Eon.

http://www.concordant.org/version/index.html

The Emphatic Diaglott simply transliterates the word as “Aionian” to avoid any confusion at all concerning its meaning. This is only done when a translator feels that the language he is translating into does not have a proper word to use. Which means that he finds the word “eternal” to be lacking.

The Cambridge Bible Dictionary, by A.W. Argyle, says about Matthew 25:46,

“Eternal punishment, i.e., punishment characteristic of the Age to come, not meaning that it lasts for ever. Eternal life, i.e., the life that belongs to the Age to come, the full abundant life which is fellowship with God.” (Italics mine.)

Bible translator, Dr. R.F. Weymouth, slightly disagrees with Young’s translation (mentioned above) on page 657 of The New Testament in Modern Speech, saying,

“Eternal: Greek: ‘aeonion,’ i.e., ‘of the ages.’ Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify ‘during,’ but ‘belonging to’ the aeons or ages.”

So he is saying he doesn’t like Young’s translation of “age-during” but would rather render it “belonging to the age.”

Dr. Bullinger’s Appendix 129 to The Companion Bible, says this about the NT term aion:

“aion = an age, or age-time, the duration of which is indefinite, and may be limited or extended as the context of each occurrence may demand. The root meaning of aion is expressed by the Hebrew olam . . . which denotes indefinite, unknown or concealed duration; just as we speak of ‘the patriarchal age,’ or ‘the golden age,’ etc.”

When he claims that the actual duration of the age is unkown or concealed, he does not mean that it is infinite, it just means nobody knows its length until it is over. This of course is perfectly natural, b/c who doesn’t tend to shy away from admitting their age!

The oldest lexicographer that we have of the Greek New Testament, Hesychius (who lived somewhere around AD 400-600), defines aion thus: “The life of man, the time of life.” J.W. Hansen remarks about Hysychius’ definition here saying,

“At this early date no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the classics (which refers to Greek writers before the Septuagint), and in the Bible.”

Theodoret (AD 300-400) in his work In Migne Vol. IV, on page 400 says,

“Aion is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimes infinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes to the life of man.”

John of Damascus (AD 750) defines it thus,

“1, The life of every man is called aión. … 3, The whole duration or life of this world is called aión. 4, The life after the resurrection is called ‘the aión to come.’”

Dr. Edward Beecher in his book Christian Union remarks about the ancient understanding of this word,

“It commonly means merely continuity of action . . . all attempts to set forth eternity as the original and primary sense of aión are at war with the facts of the Greek language for five centuries, in which it denoted life and its derivative senses, and the sense eternity was unknown.”

He further states,

“that the original sense of aión is not eternity. . . . It is conceded on all hands that this (life) was originally the general use of the word.”

In the Paris edition of Henry Stephens’ Lexicon it is affirmed emphatically,

“that life, or the space of life, is the primitive sense of the word, and that it is always so used by Homer, Hesiod, and the old poets; also by Pindar and the tragic writers, as well as by Herodotus and Xenophon.”

We will explore these Greek writers and their use of Aion and Aionios along with many others in a later blog in this series.

Professor Knapp, the author of an edition of the Greek Testament, one in use in many colleges, observes that:

“The pure idea of eternity is too abstract to have been conceived in the early ages of the world, and accordingly is not found expressed by any word in the ancient languages. But as cultivation advanced and this idea became more distinctly developed, it became necessary in order to express it to invent new words in a new sense, as was done with the words eternitas, perennitas, etc. The Hebrews were destitute of any single word to express endless duration. To express a past eternity they said before the world was; a future, when the world shall be no more. . . . The Hebrews and other ancient people have no one word for expressing the precise idea of eternity.”

Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament, says,

“There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or in the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity.” (p. 542 Vol. I)

“Eternal, everlasting–nonetheless ‘eternal’ is misleading, inasmuch as it has come into the English to connote the idea of ‘endlessly existing,’ and thus to be practically a synonym for ‘everlasting.’ But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes.” (p. 369, Vol III)

For those who may be unfamiliar with the laws of language, an adjective cannot have a greater force than the noun from which it originates. And aion is a noun and aionios is the adjective directly derived from aion. Thus if aion means age, then aionios cannot mean anything greater than an age. Thus by Linguistic principles aionios can only mean age-long, or pertaining to an age. A good example of this is the adjective generational, which originates from the noun generation. Generational means “pertaining to a generation.” A generation is usually around 40 years. If I was to come along and start claiming that the word generational meant 1000 years, or to make this an even better analogy, to claim that generational means an endless duration, I would literally be crucified by English professors!

This helps make the above quote more understandable when he says that, “everlasting…is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes.”

James Donnegan in A New Greek and English Lexicon (1839) writes,

“Time; space of time; life time and life; the ordinary period of man’s life; the age of man; man’s estate; a long period of time.”

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (page 1010) says,

“Primarily signifies time, in the sense of age, or generation”

Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon says,

“A period of existence; one’s lifetime; life; an age; a generation; a long space of time. A space of time clearly defined and marked out; an era, epoch, age, period or dispensation.”

And lastly is the Strong’s Concordance. Not generally a good source for defining words, but nonetheless what the majority of Christians will reference when looking for the definition of a word.

Anyways, even the NASB’s Strong’s Concordance gives “Age-long” as one of the definitions of aionios! The evidence has been right in front of us this whole time, but we have not had eyes to see it.
 
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Charlie24

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Dear Charles: The scope of your experience is quite evident. Perhaps you will expand your neighborhood, but it will require ephphatha.

The rule of grammer 101 has absolutely nothing to do with context.

An adjective does not hold greater scope than the noun upon which it is based!

But we don't need the comparing of adjectives and nouns to realize UR is not true.

The comparing of scripture will prove it, as I have illustrated in my posts.
 
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FineLinen

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No actually that’s also according to vine’s, University of Chicago Logion Lexicon, Thayer’s dictionary, Perseus digital library, and Westcott and Hort, in fact every single lexicon I’ve seen all agree, all except for your single source.

Concerning Aion and Aionios
The most commonly used Greek-English lexicons used today by Christians are those by Thayer (1886) and by Arndt and Gingrich (1957). The definitions given for the noun, aion, and the adjective, aionios, are widely accepted as authoritative and determinative for the teaching of everlasting punishment. This becomes for many believers a strong bulwark against taking scriptural passages such as John 12:32; Romans 5:18,19; 11:32-36; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; 2 Corinthians 5:14; Ephesians 1:10,11; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 1:20; 1 Timothy 2:4; 4:9,10; and 1 John 2:2, at face value. What is claimed for Matthew 25:46 or 2 Thessalonians 1:9, for example, is seen as limiting the meaning of the former passages.

Concerning the noun, aion, however, both lexicons (and all other such works) allow for an interpretation that would harmonize with the teaching of eventual, universal salvation. Thayer’s lexicon gives as its first definition of aion the sense of “age.” This is the second definition (of four) given in the more recent lexicon edited by Arndt and Gingrich. Hence a passage such as Matthew 12:32 could be understood as referring to the present age and the age to come, which would not, in itself, keep us from taking Romans 3:21-24 and 5:12-19 in reference to universal justification.

But in both of these lexicons, the adjective, aionios, is presented as having three meanings, in none of which the limiting sense of “age” is carried over from the noun. The adjective, it is claimed, means: (1) without beginning; or (2) without end; or (3) without beginning or end.

This may strike others, as it does me, as a rather dubious development of an adjective’s meaning in relation to its noun form. But apart from that, this threefold definition simply does not work in several New Testament passages (and many other passages in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint).

The usages of aionios in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; and Philemon 15, seem especially puzzling in view of the claims of these two lexicons.

It certainly is difficult to understand how the keeping of a secret can have no beginning, and indeed if the secret is revealed, we must assume its being kept as a secret has come to an end. No wonder the KJV of Romans 16:25 reads “since the world began,” even though the Greek speaks of “times” described as aionios. The RV is more faithful to the threefold definition, referring to a mystery kept “through times eternal” but now manifested, but that has the great disadvantage of making no sense whatever if these times are to be understood as either without beginning or without end, or, even more puzzling, without beginning and end.

In such cases, Bible commentators generally ignore the threefold definition given in the lexicons and make their own for these particular passages. In the NICNT volume on Romans, John Murray explains that “times eternal” refers “to the earlier ages of this world’s history” (THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS, vol.2, p.241). Such ages would obviously have both a beginning and end.

Notice how A. T. Robertson handles the adjective in his WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

In commenting on Matthew 25:46 he follows the threefold definition given above, writing: “The word aionios . . . means either without beginning or without end or both” (vol.1, p.202). But in commenting on Titus 1:2 he insists that the words “before times eternal” refer “Not to God’s purpose before time began . . . but to definite promises (Rom.9:4) made in time.”

Here he explains Paul’s words as signifying “Long ages ago” (vol.4, p.597). Some other commentators may try to explain that Paul is referring to something that God promised in “eternity past” but for most of us it does seem difficult to grasp any meaning in the idea of a promise being made and kept without any beginning of its being made.

In the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, “The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened” in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use “the eternity formulae” which he had previously explained as “the course of the world” perceived as “a series of smaller aiones” (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels “reminds us of the non-biblical usage” of this word, which he had earlier found to signify “lifelong” or “enduring” (p.208).

This is not to suggest any particular agreement with all these various attempts to define aion and aionios. In fact, the confusion created by these attempts to preserve some sense of everlastingness in these terms makes the attempts rather suspicious. Putting all the evidence of the usage of these terms in the New Testament together, it seems to me that the threefold definition of aionios as signifying without beginning, or without end, or without begining and end, must be dismissed as inadequate at the very least. Furthermore, to add further definitions that are not at all clear in themselves, as Sasse does, only adds to the confusion.

Of all widely used, modern attempts to define these terms, I have found the concluding definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) most helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28). -Dean Hough


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Der Alte

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Correction in the age to come, life in the age to come. Kolasis means correction Charlie, we've been through this. It has an object, a goal, an end, a telos. Eternal correction makes no sense....
Where do you get the idea that kolasis means correction? Here is the definition from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. Note the definitions, no correction anywhere. See the blue highlights, those are the historical sources the scholars reviewed to determine the correct meaning. Contrary to the popular internet rumor scholars don't sit around making up meanings for words.
κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Concerning Aion and Aionios
The most commonly used Greek-English lexicons used today by Christians are those by Thayer (1886) and by Arndt and Gingrich (1957). The definitions given for the noun, aion, and the adjective, aionios, are widely accepted as authoritative and determinative for the teaching of everlasting punishment. This becomes for many believers a strong bulwark against taking scriptural passages such as John 12:32; Romans 5:18,19; 11:32-36; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; 2 Corinthians 5:14; Ephesians 1:10,11; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 1:20; 1 Timothy 2:4; 4:9,10; and 1 John 2:2, at face value. What is claimed for Matthew 25:46 or 2 Thessalonians 1:9, for example, is seen as limiting the meaning of the former passages.

Concerning the noun, aion, however, both lexicons (and all other such works) allow for an interpretation that would harmonize with the teaching of eventual, universal salvation. Thayer’s lexicon gives as its first definition of aion the sense of “age.” This is the second definition (of four) given in the more recent lexicon edited by Arndt and Gingrich. Hence a passage such as Matthew 12:32 could be understood as referring to the present age and the age to come, which would not, in itself, keep us from taking Romans 3:21-24 and 5:12-19 in reference to universal justification.

But in both of these lexicons, the adjective, aionios, is presented as having three meanings, in none of which the limiting sense of “age” is carried over from the noun. The adjective, it is claimed, means: (1) without beginning; or (2) without end; or (3) without beginning or end.

This may strike others, as it does me, as a rather dubious development of an adjective’s meaning in relation to its noun form. But apart from that, this threefold definition simply does not work in several New Testament passages (and many other passages in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint).

The usages of aionios in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; and Philemon 15, seem especially puzzling in view of the claims of these two lexicons.

It certainly is difficult to understand how the keeping of a secret can have no beginning, and indeed if the secret is revealed, we must assume its being kept as a secret has come to an end. No wonder the KJV of Romans 16:25 reads “since the world began,” even though the Greek speaks of “times” described as aionios. The RV is more faithful to the threefold definition, referring to a mystery kept “through times eternal” but now manifested, but that has the great disadvantage of making no sense whatever if these times are to be understood as either without beginning or without end, or, even more puzzling, without beginning and end.

In such cases, Bible commentators generally ignore the threefold definition given in the lexicons and make their own for these particular passages. In the NICNT volume on Romans, John Murray explains that “times eternal” refers “to the earlier ages of this world’s history” (THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS, vol.2, p.241). Such ages would obviously have both a beginning and end.

Notice how A. T. Robertson handles the adjective in his WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

In commenting on Matthew 25:46 he follows the threefold definition given above, writing: “The word aionios . . . means either without beginning or without end or both” (vol.1, p.202). But in commenting on Titus 1:2 he insists that the words “before times eternal” refer “Not to God’s purpose before time began . . . but to definite promises (Rom.9:4) made in time.”

Here he explains Paul’s words as signifying “Long ages ago” (vol.4, p.597). Some other commentators may try to explain that Paul is referring to something that God promised in “eternity past” but for most of us it does seem difficult to grasp any meaning in the idea of a promise being made and kept without any beginning of its being made.

In the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, “The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened” in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use “the eternity formulae” which he had previously explained as “the course of the world” perceived as “a series of smaller aiones” (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels “reminds us of the non-biblical usage” of this word, which he had earlier found to signify “lifelong” or “enduring” (p.208).

This is not to suggest any particular agreement with all these various attempts to define aion and aionios. In fact, the confusion created by these attempts to preserve some sense of everlastingness in these terms makes the attempts rather suspicious. Putting all the evidence of the usage of these terms in the New Testament together, it seems to me that the threefold definition of aionios as signifying without beginning, or without end, or without begining and end, must be dismissed as inadequate at the very least. Furthermore, to add further definitions that are not at all clear in themselves, as Sasse does, only adds to the confusion.

Of all widely used, modern attempts to define these terms, I have found the concluding definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) most helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28). -Dean Hough


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This ignores contrasting statements that are made in the scriptures like for example Mark 3:28-29

“"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" -”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:28-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is a simple contrast between sins that will be forgiven and the sin that won’t be forgiven. It doesn’t make sense to say that all sins will be forgiven but this sin will be forgiven later.
 
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Charlie24

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Dear Charles: The scope of your experience is quite evident. Perhaps you will expand your neighborhood, but it will require ephphatha.

The rule of grammer 101 has absolutely nothing to do with context.

An adjective does not hold greater scope than the noun upon which it is based!

If I expand my neighborhood I may enter into the world of UR or some other God forsaken false doctrine.

Charlie is happy in his neighborhood.
 
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FineLinen

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Is your God the God of the “tis” or the God of “ta pante”?

God IS the Source, Guide & Goal of the all!

Not “tis”, “ta pante.”

Shackle =

To deprive of freedom especially of action by means of restrictions or handicaps.

To bind/ chain/ fetter.

Limitation =

To be deprived of freedom by means of restrictions or handicaps.

Bound/ confine/ limit

"You have limited the Holy One of Israel."
 
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FineLinen

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"All around us we observe a pregnant creation. The difficult times of pain throughout the world are simply birth pangs. But it’s not only around us; it’s within us. The Spirit of God is arousing us within. We’re also feeling the birth pangs. These sterile and barren bodies of ours are yearning for full deliverance. That is why waiting does not diminish us, any more than waiting diminishes a pregnant mother. We are enlarged in the waiting. We, of course, don’t see what is enlarging us. But the longer we wait, the larger we become, and the more joyful our expectancy.

Meanwhile, the moment we get tired in the waiting, God’s Spirit is right alongside helping us along. If we don’t know how or what to pray, it doesn’t matter. He does our praying in and for us, making prayer out of our wordless sighs, our aching groans.

He knows us far better than we know ourselves, knows our pregnant condition, and keeps us present before God. That’s why we can be so sure that every detail in our lives of love for God is worked into something good.

God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him. After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun." -The Message-

I believe in a God who completes what He has begun. He is Author & Finisher!
 
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Charlie24

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"All around us we observe a pregnant creation. The difficult times of pain throughout the world are simply birth pangs. But it’s not only around us; it’s within us. The Spirit of God is arousing us within. We’re also feeling the birth pangs. These sterile and barren bodies of ours are yearning for full deliverance. That is why waiting does not diminish us, any more than waiting diminishes a pregnant mother. We are enlarged in the waiting. We, of course, don’t see what is enlarging us. But the longer we wait, the larger we become, and the more joyful our expectancy.

Meanwhile, the moment we get tired in the waiting, God’s Spirit is right alongside helping us along. If we don’t know how or what to pray, it doesn’t matter. He does our praying in and for us, making prayer out of our wordless sighs, our aching groans.

He knows us far better than we know ourselves, knows our pregnant condition, and keeps us present before God. That’s why we can be so sure that every detail in our lives of love for God is worked into something good.

God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him. After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun." -The Message-

I believe in a God who completes what He has begun. He is Author & Finisher!

He certainly is the Author and Finisher of our faith!

But He cannot be the Author and Finisher of faith for those who reject that faith!

Here in this life and on this earth is the proving grounds for mans eternity.

Everyone of us without exception will decide our own fate.
 
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Lazarus Short

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He certainly is the Author and Finisher of our faith!

But He cannot be the Author and Finisher of faith for those who reject that faith!

Here in this life and on this earth is the proving grounds for mans eternity.

Everyone of us without exception will decide our own fate.

So...you think and believe our puny little wills trump God's sovereign Will? I believe in a God named YHVH, Who is both willing and able to save all. You believe in the same God, but you think He is too weak to save all, though he is willing.
 
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