The fatal flaw of Universalism

[FineLinen]

Are you saying that, for your assertions to stand, you have to ignore the verse that I mentioned, or maybe switch translations?

Dear Raymond: It is unwise ignoring one iota of the Father's pronouncements ! !

I repeat:

In the first place there are exactly two passages in all Canon using aidios, this is NOT one of them! (Mark 3:29 KJV)

In the second place, damnation is NOT a koine word! Ktisis yes, damnation NO!

The outcome of the blasphemy of the Spirit (conducted constantly on Xian boards) extends into two ages, this age/aeon & the next age/aeon.

Not aidios, not forever & ever, this aion & the next.

 

[FineLinen]

Your question for today stands, Raymond.

What is the scope of ta pante?

Romans 11:36 - Bible Gateway

If you need help, please feel free to call on BNR or Charlie. Or better yet, forget them both and do a little research on your own.

 

[RaymondG]

Dear Raymond: It is unwise ignoring one iota of the Father's pronouncements ! !

I agree, yet you seems to not be able to focus on the one verse I gave and try to explain it.

I repeat:

In the first place there are exactly two passages in all Canon using aidios, this is NOT one of them! (Mark 3:29 KJV)

In the second place, damnation is NOT a koine word! Ktisis yes, damnation NO!

The outcome of the blasphemy of the Spirit (conducted constantly on Xian boards) extends into two ages, this age/aeon & the next age/aeon.

Not aidios, not forever & ever, this aion & the next.

I am not good with greek..... I will have to take a few basic classes in the language before I can understand your words.

Like I side before, I understand.

 

[RaymondG]

Your question for today stands, Raymond.

What is the scope of ta pante?

Romans 11:36 - Bible Gateway

If you need help, please feel free to call on BNR or Charlie. Or better yet, forget them both and do a little research on your own.

Why do you believe that others should focus on one word/phrase/verse that support your cause, when you refused to focus on the single verse I gave?

 

[FineLinen]

I agree, yet you seems to not be able to focus on the one verse I gave and try to explain it.



I am not good with greek..... I will have to take a few basic classes in the language before I can understand your words.

Like I side before, I understand.

Dear Raymond: I do NOT focus on one verse of Scripture. The Canon is one harmonious whole. It is unwise bouncing across the surface!

Dig, dig, dig

 

[FineLinen]

Why do you believe that others should focus on one word/phrase/verse that support your cause, when you refused to focus on the single verse I gave?

Dear Raymond: Focus on Him and His cause!

ONLY ! !

 

[Eloy Craft]

All completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We can only speculate on what we think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus never actually said exactly what it is. An honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.”

Hi BNR32FAN, we know what the unforgiveable sin is and why it is unforgiveable. God incarnated and dwelt among His people. God had revealed Himself to them fully. The powers among them had received the full revelation of God in as much as humans are capable of receiving. Jesus warned them of this sin because Jesus' time with them was coming to an end and they were in danger of becoming permanently rebellious. Satan and the other angels who fell committed this sin. God revealed Himself fully to the angels and they still rejected Him. If God reveals Himself in the fullness that can be received and is till rejected then God has been fully known and there is nothing that will change their mind. The heart is permanently hardened and fit to be judged since it has entered an eternal state. The Jews that Jesus said this to were in danger of or had entered into an eternal state of rebellion like Satan and his angels.

 

[FineLinen]

Universal Restoration

The reason why I do not conceive that “forever and ever” doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.

These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.

Now if the words “forever and ever” signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once.” -Elhanan Winchester –

Elhanan Winchester | American preacher and revivalist

Elhanan Winchester: The Gospel Preached by the Apostles (1788) | Mercy Upon All

 

[Charlie24]

Your question for today stands, Raymond.

What is the scope of ta pante?

Romans 11:36 - Bible Gateway

If you need help, please feel free to call on BNR or Charlie. Or better yet, forget them both and do a little research on your own.

1Tim. 6:16
who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Does "aionios" here mean only for an age? Is God's honor and might for only an age?

 

[FineLinen]

Jesus Christ is the One who is the Master of ephphatha. The vast, vast majority have never heard His voice once in their experience on this side of Glory. Our God is indeed the beginning & the ending, the Aleph & Tav of all that is. There is no animal in our Father’s world called “too late”.

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace , wherein He has made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace ; Wherein He has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will , according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself :That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will .”

 

[FineLinen]

1Tim. 6:16
who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Does "aionios" here mean only for an age? Is God's honor and might for only an age?

Dear Charlie: Put on your listening ears.

The word in this remarkable passage regarding our wonderful Lord is NOT aionios, it is athanasia meaning deathlessness the opposite of thanatos.

Thanatos is swallowed up in athanasia

 

[RaymondG]

Dear Raymond: I do NOT focus on one verse of Scripture. The Canon is one harmonious whole. It is unwise bouncing across the surface!

Dig, dig, dig

It seems that you do seem to focus on a few verses and greek words , to the exclusion of others....like the ones I mentioned.......for which I find no fault.

Yet if one aims to draw people using the letters and words, they should be able to give an account of all the words, and not shift focus back to the words more easily supporting the foundation of the doctrine preached.

If you desire everyone to just believe what you say without question then you should, at the very least, be understanding of those who choose to not believe you and continue to follow eternal damnation......as the preachers of that doctrine, also, required belief without question.

 

[Charlie24]

Dear Charlie: Put on your listening ears.

The word in this remarkable passage regarding our wonderful Lord is NOT aionios, it is athanasia meaning deathlessness the opposite of thanatos.

Thanatos is swallowed up in athanasia

You're a funny guy, FL.

But once you change the meaning of God's word and take it our of context, it's easy to make any verse mean what you want, right.

You just use the Greek to flip back and forth at your convenience.

Doesn't matter that you use proper hemaneutics, why, you're a master of Greek and we have to take you at your word. lol

 

[Der Alte]

***

<OM>Incorrect. In the former God's power is aidios/eternal. In the latter aionios cannot mean eternal because if you bothered to note the very verse before it, v.25 states "...the mystery which was concealed from times eternal αἰώνιος." It is impossible for aiōniois to mean eternal in this verse because a mystery which is ETERNAL can never be revealed and will always be concealed. Thus the only proper way to translate aiōniois in v.25 is "...the mystery which was concealed for LONG AGES αἰώνιος" -not eternal - which is in agreement with many English translations.
In the very next verse 26, Paul certainly knew the difference between aidios and aionios, yet he chose to use aionios in this verse to describe God. Why the distinction? Because in v.25 he used aiōniois to describe a limited duration of time before the secret was revealed and in v.26 he also uses aiōniou to describe a limited duration of time in which God works through ages of time (not eternal) in order to reveal the once kept secret that all the gentiles have the opportunity for obedience through faith. Thus aionios cannot be a synonym for aidios.<OM>

***

Faulty argument. In Rom 16:26 aionios refers to God the same God of whom Paul said His power and Godhood were aiodios/eternal in vs. 1:20. That is defining. In vs. 25 Paul merely refers to a period of time as aionios it is not defined by other adjectives/adjectival phrases as in vs. 16:26 and 7 other verses.
In your haste to try to refute my argument you said "in v.26 he also uses aiōniou to describe a limited duration of time in which God works through ages of time (not eternal) in order to reveal the once kept secret..." Rom 16:26 does not say anything like this.
Your argument also fails because you said vs. 26 refers to "a limited duration of time in which God works through ages of time." In vs. 26 αιωνιου/aioniou is singular not plural.
Rom 16:25 is an example of hyperbole. Not unlike the English usage. In English "eternity" means a period of time without end but it is often used hyperbolically. E.g. "I had to wait in line for an eternity." That hyperbolic usage does not change the meaning of "eternity."

 

[Eloy Craft]

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace , wherein He has made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace ; Wherein He has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will , according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself :That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will .”

esus Christ is the One who is the Master of ephphatha. The vast, vast majority have never heard His voice once in their experience on this side of Glory. Our God is indeed the beginning & the ending, the Aleph & Tav of all that is. There is no animal in our Father’s world called “too late”.

"FineLinen, I believe there is a universal call to the Father. Does that mean there is a universal acceptance of that call?
The sacred author isn't writing to a universal audience but to those who have been adopted, those who have been made acceptable, those redeemed in the Blood. Those He can know because they are bearing fruit. He isn't writing to the unknown but to the known.

 

[Charlie24]

You're a funny guy, FL.

But once you change the meaning of God's word and take it our of context, it's easy to make any verse mean what you want, right.

You just use the Greek to flip back and forth at your convenience.

Doesn't matter that you use proper hemaneutics, why, you're a master of Greek and we have to take you at your word. lol

This is what I'm talking about when i say you are using words out of context.

The context of 1Tim. 6:16 is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Dear Charlie: Put on your listening ears.

The word in this remarkable passage regarding our wonderful Lord is NOT aionios, it is athanasia meaning deathlessness the opposite of thanatos.

Thanatos is swallowed up in athanasia

I don’t know what lexicon your using but every one I find says that αἰώνιον is aionios G166.

 

[Charlie24]

I don’t know what lexicon your using but every one I find says that αἰώνιον is aionios G166.

He uses various Greek words and tags them on an English word at his convenience.

He is changing the English words to mean whatever he desires.

I've called him out on this because I'm tired of it!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Actually, I think it unwise to add blind belief where there is uncertainty.....One should continue to seek until they find.

Also, a little faith cannot move anything. Mustard seed faith, it the biggest, strongest faith that anyone can have....and few obtain.

Who said my faith was blind? If you know anything about God and His plan, you can deduce the essentials.

On the other hand, you could take every passage atomistically and double down on blindness. Your choice in God's hands bro.

 

[Der Alte]

***

<C2>This is what I'm talking about when i say you are using words out of context.
The context of 1Tim. 6:16 is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.<C2>

***

After hearing the argument "Aionios never means eternal." umpteen times over the past 2 decades I did a word study of the word "aionios" in the NT. I found 24 occurrences where "aonios" is defined as "eternal, everlasting" etc. by other adjectives/adjectival phrases 1 Tim 6;16 is one of those verses.
Here are the other 9 verses.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens. ​

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life. ​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

​