The fatal flaw of Universalism

[FineLinen]

This is what I'm talking about when i say you are using words out of context.

The context of 1Tim. 6:16 is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

Dear Charles: focus son.

The word in koine for eternal is NOT aionios, the adjective of aion, but aidios. His immortality is from age to age to age to age, and at the end of the ages, the immortal Aidios God of Glory continues. God is indeed deathless (athanatos)!

He swallows all thanatos in His deathlessness.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Charles: focus son.

The word in koine for eternal is NOT aionios, the adjective of aion, but aidios. His immortality is from age to age to age to age, and at the end of the ages, the immortal Aidios God of Glory continues. God is indeed deathless (athanatos)!

He swallows all thanatos in His deathlessness.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting .

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios , it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact.

The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios . It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it.

Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of " the everlasting power and divinity of God ." In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God ( tou aioniou theou ); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context.

He has said that " the mystery " has been kept in silence in times eternal ( chronois aioniois ), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons , the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation.

To the same effect is the title 'o basileus ton aionon , the King of the aeons , applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion , before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old , as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life , which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon.

I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios . Kolasis aionios , rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking.

In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios , John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios . John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: "In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration.

‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as 'e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed , and 'e zoe tou theou , the life of God . It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order."

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality.

Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing.

In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. ’

Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction , then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction . Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to , or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish .

Peter says " the world being deluged with water, perished ( apoleto , 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, " they shall perish " ( apolountai ). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal.

" They shall be changed " ( allagesontai ). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, " the Son of man came to save that which was lost " ( apololos ), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost ( apololota ) sheep of the house of Israel , Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, " He that shall lose ( apolese ) his life for my sake shall find it ," Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon.

In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ.

Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined.

In neither case is aionios , to be interpreted as everlasting or endless .

 

[FineLinen]

I don’t know what lexicon your using but every one I find says that αἰώνιον is aionios G166.

Dear BNR: By every one I assume it is Dr. Strong. LOL.

Perhaps you should expand your help line to the Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament by William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich for a start?

 

[FineLinen]

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in aionios
How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

-Dr. Orville Boyd Jenkins-


Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in <em>aionios</em>: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

 

[FineLinen]

The Scholars

To start with, Rotherham’s The Emphasized Bible, which is a literal word for word translation of the Bible, translates the word aionios here and elsewhere in the Bible as “Age Abiding.” You can see this for yourself at the following website.

Matthew 25 - Rotherham's Emphasized Bible EBR 1902 Online Bible Translation

Young’s Literal Translation, also a literal word for word translation of the Bible, translates the word aionios here and everywhere else as, “Age During.”

Read & Study The Bible - Daily Verse, Scripture by Topic, Stories

The Concordant Version translates it as “Eonian” in the sense of pertaining to an Eon.

http://www.concordant.org/version/index.html

The Emphatic Diaglott simply transliterates the word as “Aionian” to avoid any confusion at all concerning its meaning. This is only done when a translator feels that the language he is translating into does not have a proper word to use. Which means that he finds the word “eternal” to be lacking.

The Cambridge Bible Dictionary, by A.W. Argyle, says about Matthew 25:46,

“Eternal punishment, i.e., punishment characteristic of the Age to come, not meaning that it lasts for ever. Eternal life, i.e., the life that belongs to the Age to come, the full abundant life which is fellowship with God.” (Italics mine.)

Bible translator, Dr. R.F. Weymouth, slightly disagrees with Young’s translation (mentioned above) on page 657 of The New Testament in Modern Speech, saying,

“Eternal: Greek: ‘aeonion,’ i.e., ‘of the ages.’ Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify ‘during,’ but ‘belonging to’ the aeons or ages.”

So he is saying he doesn’t like Young’s translation of “age-during” but would rather render it “belonging to the age.”

Dr. Bullinger’s Appendix 129 to The Companion Bible, says this about the NT term aion:

“aion = an age, or age-time, the duration of which is indefinite, and may be limited or extended as the context of each occurrence may demand. The root meaning of aion is expressed by the Hebrew olam . . . which denotes indefinite, unknown or concealed duration; just as we speak of ‘the patriarchal age,’ or ‘the golden age,’ etc.”

When he claims that the actual duration of the age is unkown or concealed, he does not mean that it is infinite, it just means nobody knows its length until it is over. This of course is perfectly natural, b/c who doesn’t tend to shy away from admitting their age!

The oldest lexicographer that we have of the Greek New Testament, Hesychius (who lived somewhere around AD 400-600), defines aion thus: “The life of man, the time of life.” J.W. Hansen remarks about Hysychius’ definition here saying,

“At this early date no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the classics (which refers to Greek writers before the Septuagint), and in the Bible.”

Theodoret (AD 300-400) in his work In Migne Vol. IV, on page 400 says,

“Aion is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimes infinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes to the life of man.”

John of Damascus (AD 750) defines it thus,

“1, The life of every man is called aión. … 3, The whole duration or life of this world is called aión. 4, The life after the resurrection is called ‘the aión to come.’”

Dr. Edward Beecher in his book Christian Union remarks about the ancient understanding of this word,

“It commonly means merely continuity of action . . . all attempts to set forth eternity as the original and primary sense of aión are at war with the facts of the Greek language for five centuries, in which it denoted life and its derivative senses, and the sense eternity was unknown.”

He further states,

“that the original sense of aión is not eternity. . . . It is conceded on all hands that this (life) was originally the general use of the word.”

In the Paris edition of Henry Stephens’ Lexicon it is affirmed emphatically,

“that life, or the space of life, is the primitive sense of the word, and that it is always so used by Homer, Hesiod, and the old poets; also by Pindar and the tragic writers, as well as by Herodotus and Xenophon.”

We will explore these Greek writers and their use of Aion and Aionios along with many others in a later blog in this series.

Professor Knapp, the author of an edition of the Greek Testament, one in use in many colleges, observes that:

“The pure idea of eternity is too abstract to have been conceived in the early ages of the world, and accordingly is not found expressed by any word in the ancient languages. But as cultivation advanced and this idea became more distinctly developed, it became necessary in order to express it to invent new words in a new sense, as was done with the words eternitas, perennitas, etc. The Hebrews were destitute of any single word to express endless duration. To express a past eternity they said before the world was; a future, when the world shall be no more. . . . The Hebrews and other ancient people have no one word for expressing the precise idea of eternity.”

Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament, says,

“There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or in the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity.” (p. 542 Vol. I)

“Eternal, everlasting–nonetheless ‘eternal’ is misleading, inasmuch as it has come into the English to connote the idea of ‘endlessly existing,’ and thus to be practically a synonym for ‘everlasting.’ But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes.” (p. 369, Vol III)

For those who may be unfamiliar with the laws of language, an adjective cannot have a greater force than the noun from which it originates. And aion is a noun and aionios is the adjective directly derived from aion. Thus if aion means age, then aionios cannot mean anything greater than an age. Thus by Linguistic principles aionios can only mean age-long, or pertaining to an age. A good example of this is the adjective generational, which originates from the noun generation. Generational means “pertaining to a generation.” A generation is usually around 40 years. If I was to come along and start claiming that the word generational meant 1000 years, or to make this an even better analogy, to claim that generational means an endless duration, I would literally be crucified by English professors!

This helps make the above quote more understandable when he says that, “everlasting…is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes.”

James Donnegan in A New Greek and English Lexicon (1839) writes,

“Time; space of time; life time and life; the ordinary period of man’s life; the age of man; man’s estate; a long period of time.”

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (page 1010) says,

“Primarily signifies time, in the sense of age, or generation”

Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon says,

“A period of existence; one’s lifetime; life; an age; a generation; a long space of time. A space of time clearly defined and marked out; an era, epoch, age, period or dispensation.”

And lastly is the Strong’s Concordance. Not generally a good source for defining words, but nonetheless what the majority of Christians will reference when looking for the definition of a word.

Anyways, even the NASB’s Strong’s Concordance gives “Age-long” as one of the definitions of aionios! The evidence has been right in front of us this whole time, but we have not had eyes to see it.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Dear BNR: By every one I assume it is Dr. Strong. LOL.
Perhaps you should expand your help line to the Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament by William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich for a start?

I happen to have the most recent edition. At the link below is an earlier edition online. Note the blue highlights indicate the sources the scholars consulted in determining the meaning of this word. Contrary to some online opinions scholars don't sit around making up definitions.

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις;/[eternal home] Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) color=red]keep someone forever[/color] Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 [everlasting kingdom](ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.- Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm​

 

[FineLinen]

J. Preston Eby

The noun AION nowhere means eternal. Its simple meaning is an age. In its plural form it means ages. We have unquestionably and incontrovertibly demonstrated this fact from numerous New Testament passages. Now once we understand that AIONIOS is the adjective form of the noun AION, a simple little sixth-grade grammar lesson should once and for all establish the exact meaning of AIONIOS.

And yet men who should know better tell us that the Greek noun AION means an age, or ages, which is TIME, and then proceed to ridiculously explain that the adjective form of the same word means exactly the opposite - unending, everlasting, ETERNAL!

 

[Saint Steven]

Isn't everyone accorded a measure of faith?

Yes, of course.
But I was more concerned that the word faith was being used/understood by the poster to be our Christian religion, as in the "faith" of Christianity. (keep the faith, baby)
That is not the thrust of this passage. IMHO

 

[Der Alte]

...

J. Preston Eby
The noun AION nowhere means eternal. Its simple meaning is an age. In its plural form it means ages. We have unquestionably and incontrovertibly demonstrated this fact from numerous New Testament passages. Now once we understand that AIONIOS is the adjective form of the noun AION, a simple little sixth-grade grammar lesson should once and for all establish the exact meaning of AIONIOS.
And yet men who should know better tell us that the Greek noun AION means an age, or ages, which is TIME, and then proceed to ridiculously explain that the adjective form of the same word means exactly the opposite - unending, everlasting, ETERNAL!

Assumes that J.P. Eby is the be all, end all authority on koine Greek. I see this a lot people will go find something, written by somebody which supports their assumptions/presuppositions and proclaim that as the authority. The complete definition of "Aion" in Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich is three and a half typewritten pages. So here are the major section headings of the definition of "Aion."

αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ (Hom.+; gener. ‘an extended period of time’, in var. senses)
① a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end,
ⓐ of time gone by, the past, earliest times, readily suggesting a venerable or awesome eld οἱ ἅγιοι ἀπʼ αἰῶνος προφῆται the holy prophets fr. time immemorial (
ⓑ of time to come which, if it has no end, is also known as eternity
② a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age
ⓐ ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος (הָעוֹלָם הַזֶּה) the present age (nearing its end)
ⓑ ὁ αἰὼν μέλλων (הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא) the age to come, the Messianic period
③ the world as a spatial concept, the world
④ the Aeon as a person, the Aeon​

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Assumes that J.P. Eby is the be all, end all authority on koine Greek. I see this a lot people will go find something, written by somebody which supports their assumptions/presuppositions and proclaim that as the authority. The complete definition of "Aion" in Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich is three and a half typewritten pages. So here are the major section headings of the definition of "Aion."

αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ (Hom.+; gener. ‘an extended period of time’, in var. senses)
① a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end,
ⓐ of time gone by, the past, earliest times, readily suggesting a venerable or awesome eld οἱ ἅγιοι ἀπʼ αἰῶνος προφῆται the holy prophets fr. time immemorial (
ⓑ of time to come which, if it has no end, is also known as eternity
② a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age
ⓐ ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος (הָעוֹלָם הַזֶּה) the present age (nearing its end)
ⓑ ὁ αἰὼν μέλλων (הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא) the age to come, the Messianic period
③ the world as a spatial concept, the world
④ the Aeon as a person, the Aeon​

Slippery little sucker, ain't it?

Frustrating times for the literalist. Like a butterfly you can't pin down, or a chameleon that won't quit changing its colours.

 

[FineLinen]

J. Preston Eby

The noun AION nowhere means eternal. Its simple meaning is an age. In its plural form it means ages. We have unquestionably and incontrovertibly demonstrated this fact from numerous New Testament passages. Now once we understand that AIONIOS is the adjective form of the noun AION, a simple little sixth-grade grammar lesson should once and for all establish the exact meaning of AIONIOS.

And yet men who should know better tell us that the Greek noun AION means an age, or ages, which is TIME, and then proceed to ridiculously explain that the adjective form of the same word means exactly the opposite - unending, everlasting, ETERNAL!

Rule of grammar 101.

An adjective has no greater force than the noun upon which it is rooted.

What is an age in English & koine?

A period of time (long or short)—usually used in plural.

A Chart of the Eons or Ages

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What is an age in English & koine?

Ooh I know this one...don't tell me...it's on the tip of my tongue...nope, it's gone.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Rule of grammar 101.

An adjective has no greater force than the noun upon which it is rooted.

What is an age in English & koine?

A period of time (long or short)—usually used in plural.

My friend, we live in the darkest of dark aeons, despite the high levels of literacy and numeracy, blindness and obstinacy is pervasive. Could say the work is plentiful...

 

[FineLinen]

My friend, we live in the darkest of dark aeons, despite the high levels of literacy and numeracy, blindness and obstinacy is pervasive. Could say the work is plentiful...

Dear Shrewd: This is indeed a dark aeon. Not only is darkness covering the earth, but great darkness the people.

And yet, the Lord continues to draw a remnant back into Himself. The purpose is, and always has been, to fill every last dark area with glory.

The knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth as the waters cover the sea.

 

[Charlie24]

Despite the efforts of men to override the clear teaching of the Bible, the Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

The New Testament use of the words eternal and everlasting makes it clear what they mean. It is "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46). The fire is "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). There will be "eternal damnation" for some (Mark 3:29). For emphasis, consider how other verses use these words:

1. God is everlasting. "According to the commandment of the everlasting God" (ref. Romans 16:26). Does everlasting mean unending or temporary? Will God cease to exist?

2. The Holy Spirit is eternal. "Who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God" (ref. Hebrews 9:14). Is the Holy Spirit temporary? When the lake of fire gives up her dead, will He go out of existence?

3. Redemption is eternal. "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Hebrews 9:12) Is Christ's work of eternal redemption completed or was it for just a brief time?

4. Salvation is eternal. "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" ( ref. Hebrews 5:9). Will salvation also be temporary as well?

5. The kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. The faithful will be in "the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:11). Will the end to the suffrage of the wicked in the lake of fire also earmark the end of the kingdom of God?

The same words in both Greek and English are used to describe the future punishment of the wicked that are used to describe God, the Spirit, salvation, and the kingdom. "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

Therefore, the fallacy with even arguing how long the duration of "aion" and "aionios" as to mean an age or duration of time less than forever and ever and to mean something other than time everlasting to support the doctrine of universal reconciliation is that then the same argument can be applied to heaven, God, and the everlasting life of the saints. In this the universalist is not consistent with their argument of what these words mean.

 

[Charlie24]

Rule of grammar 101.

An adjective has no greater force than the noun upon which it is rooted.

What is an age in English & koine?

A period of time (long or short)—usually used in plural.

A Chart of the Eons or Ages

The context of scripture determines this FL.

I am by no means a scholar of the Greek language in the true sense of the word "scholar."

I have studied the fundamentals of Greek in Bible school, I use it often to clarify scripture and gain a better understanding.

I have never, I repeat never, seen anyone use the Greek so out of context of scripture as is being demonstrated in your posts.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The context of scripture determines this FL.

I am by no means a scholar of the Greek language in the true sense of the word "scholar."

I have studied the fundamentals of Greek in Bible school, I use it often to clarify scripture and gain a better understanding.

I have never, I repeat never, seen anyone use the Greek so out of context of scripture as is being demonstrated in your posts.

Charlie, I have never seen anyone outside the KJVO crowd so assume the KJV is the one and only Word of God. There are dozens of versions and translations out there, but you quote the KJV as if there is none other. Of those many versions, not all agree with your position on forever/everlasting. For my part, I am also not a scholar of any standing, but I find some things in the KJV to be biased and rendered for emotional effect and/or doctrinal adherence.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

Correction in the age to come, life in the age to come. Kolasis means correction Charlie, we've been through this. It has an object, a goal, an end, a telos. Eternal correction makes no sense.

"everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)

The fire might be everlasting, and so are its effects, but they are restorative. Witness the return of the nations in Rev 21:24-26 after getting the fire treatment earlier.

There will be "eternal damnation" for some (Mark 3:29)

Not in most translations buddy.

1. God is everlasting. "According to the commandment of the everlasting God" (ref. Romans 16:26). Does everlasting mean unending or temporary? Will God cease to exist?

2. The Holy Spirit is eternal. "Who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God" (ref. Hebrews 9:14). Is the Holy Spirit temporary? When the lake of fire gives up her dead, will He go out of existence?

3. Redemption is eternal. "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Hebrews 9:12) Is Christ's work of eternal redemption completed or was it for just a brief time?

4. Salvation is eternal. "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" ( ref. Hebrews 5:9). Will salvation also be temporary as well?

5. The kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. The faithful will be in "the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:11). Will the end to the suffrage of the wicked in the lake of fire also earmark the end of the kingdom of God?

Ok, what's your point? Just because the pool balls are round, doesn't make the table round.

Therefore, the fallacy with even arguing how long the duration of "aion" and "aionios" as to mean an age or duration of time less than forever and ever and to mean something other than time everlasting to support the doctrine of universal reconciliation is that then the same argument can be applied to heaven, God, and the everlasting life of the saints. In this the universalist is not consistent with their argument of what these words mean.

It does not denote a period of time, but a quality, as in 'the life aquatic'. A transcendent timeless spiritualised state, if you will Charlie. Have a look at all the various definitions, then consider the Spirit, who gives life over the letter that kills.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, I have never seen anyone outside the KJVO crowd so assume the KJV is the one and only Word of God. There are dozens of versions and translations out there, but you quote the KJV as if there is none other. Of those many versions, not all agree with your position on forever/everlasting. For my part, I am also not a scholar of any standing, but I find some things in the KJV to be biased and rendered for emotional effect and/or doctrinal adherence.

Laz, do you believe that when King James gathered together the translators for the KJV, those men were inspired by the Holy Spirit in their translations and efforts?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Laz, do you believe that when King James gathered together the translators for the KJV, those men were inspired by the Holy Spirit in their translations and efforts?

Overall, they did a magnificent job from a literary POV, and I consider the KJV to be one of the chief pillars of the English language.

From a theological/theo-illogical POV, I see the KJV as the predictable outcome of the scholarship of the time, the expected outcome of the Anglican brand of Christianity - only once removed from the RCC, and I worry how much the king's instructions altered the result. In it, I have seen bias, bad word choices, and the imposition of theology which comes from suspect sources. I will not judge on whether the text was inspired or not, but I have moved on to other Bible versions.