The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Lazarus Short]

Charlie 13:13
Forever means forever, everlasting means everlasting, eternal means eternal. And he who believes otherwise is not wise.

OTOH, Laz sez that he who believes an English term in an English translation as true in the prima facie sense...is not wise. That is what commentaries, concordances, dictionaries and interlinear texts are for.

 

[Oldmantook]

Please explain to me how this "Choosing to sin has consequences though such as ending up in the lake of fire." gets "to every knee shall bow in heaven, on the earth, under the earth and confess that Jesus is Lord" and this gets to loving and serving God? Where and how does this complete change in personality occur? Some scripture would helpful.

Where? Easy. The lake of fire. Your view dictates that the LOF is for the purpose of eternal punishment. Eternal punishment serves as the justice that is meted out by God for people whose sins are not atoned for by the blood. If punishment was the end result of God's justice then I would certainly agree with you as nothing beats the LOF when it comes to punishment. However the pertinent question is, does the LOF serve for the purpose of punishment or for something else? I submit that the LOF serves not for the purpose of punishment of mankind but for something else - namely the reconciliation of mankind to God.
If we examine Col 1:20 we find a succinct statement where God declares the mission statement of his beloved Son: and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
In your ECT view, no one in the LOF is ever reconciled to God but instead are punished forever. Same thing for the annihilationist view as those in the LOF are extinguished but are never reconciled with God. Only the Universalist view squares with Col 1:20 whereby the LOF is a place of chastening for the purpose of correction and ultimately reconciliation with God.

 

[Oldmantook]

The entire spectrum of the power, reign, glory and kingdom of the Aidios God is NOT on the foundation of age or ages, NOT!

Apparently you don't even recognize that aidios and aionios are two different words serving different purposes.

 

[Der Alte]

Apparently you don't even recognize that aidios and aionios are two different words serving different purposes.

Paul used them as synonyms.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

 

[Der Alte]

Where? Easy. The lake of fire. Your view dictates that the LOF is for the purpose of eternal punishment. Eternal punishment serves as the justice that is meted out by God for people whose sins are not atoned for by the blood. If punishment was the end result of God's justice then I would certainly agree with you as nothing beats the LOF when it comes to punishment. However the pertinent question is, does the LOF serve for the purpose of punishment or for something else? I submit that the LOF serves not for the purpose of punishment of mankind but for something else - namely the reconciliation of mankind to God.

But you cannot provide even one verse in Revelation which states that anyone will be purified and released from the LoF and filled with love etc. for God, who punished them.
Why don't people who are sent to prison in this life become law abiding citizens and love the judges, lawyers, juries etc who put them in prison?

If we examine Col 1:20 we find a succinct statement where God declares the mission statement of his beloved Son: and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
In your ECT view, no one in the LOF is ever reconciled to God but instead are punished forever. Same thing for the annihilationist view as those in the LOF are extinguished but are never reconciled with God. Only the Universalist view squares with Col 1:20 whereby the LOF is a place of chastening for the purpose of correction and ultimately reconciliation with God.

And the Uni view either completely ignores Revelation or tries to make it say something it does not say.
Not one single verse in Revelation states or implies that "the LOF is a place of chastening for the purpose of correction and ultimately reconciliation with God."
Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting disparate verses out-of-context and/or jamming various verses together regardless of context as you are trying to do with Col 1:20 and Revelation. I see torment for ever and ever but nothing about chastening/reconciliation. Do you think maybe John forgot to put that in?
.....Also how did the seven churches in Revelation, to whom John was writing, understand Revelation? It is highly unlikely that they had a copy or even heard of the epistle to Colossae. Both epistles may have been written about the same time in different parts of the world, Paul in Rome, John on Patmos. When they heard/read Revelation how would they understand it? There is nothing about chastening and correction.

 

[Oldmantook]

Paul used them as synonyms.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

Incorrect. In the former God's power is aidios/eternal. In the latter aionios cannot mean eternal because if you bothered to note the very verse before it, v.25 states "...the mystery which was concealed from times eternal αἰώνιος." It is impossible for aiōniois to mean eternal in this verse because a mystery which is ETERNAL can never be revealed and will always be concealed. Thus the only proper way to translate aiōniois in v.25 is "...the mystery which was concealed for LONG AGES αἰώνιος" -not eternal - which is in agreement with many English translations.
In the very next verse 26, Paul certainly knew the difference between aidios and aionios, yet he chose to use aionios in this verse to describe God. Why the distinction? Because in v.25 he used aiōniois to describe a limited duration of time before the secret was revealed and in v.26 he also uses aiōniou to describe a limited duration of time in which God works through ages of time (not eternal) in order to reveal the once kept secret that all the gentiles have the opportunity for obedience through faith. Thus aionios cannot be a synonym for aidios.

 

[FineLinen]

Apparently you don't even recognize that aidios and aionios are two different words serving different purposes.

Dear Oldman: I appreciate the alert.

Aidios, and the adjective of aeon/aion (aionios) are indeed two different words in koine.

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

The New Testament has ONLY one word which can truthfully be translated as ETERNAL.

This is the Greek word Aidios which is used only twice: For since the creation of the world GODS invisible qualities - His eternal (aidios) power and divine nature - have been clearly seen. In the case of angels held in aidios chains, this has to do with His eternal (Aidios) power to hold them.

However, if you read it carefully, you will see a difference between Jude 1:6 and Jude 1:7, whereas, they do not use the same Greek WORD. The fire speaks to that of an age, a period of time, not something that is without a beginning or an end. Nobody would use two different words two describe the same thing, unless - they were speaking English, as there is a difference in their application. Any divergence or variance is worthy of attention and significant - if you're not playing the ignorant card.

The fire goes out once it has served its purpose. It’s not a reference to that which is Eternal (aidios), having no beginning or end. The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion) or eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (age-abiding) kalasin (chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life for that matter.


Aionios is NOT a synonym for aidios.

 

[FineLinen]

I cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One whose very essence is Love, who has infinite wisdom, & infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages.

God’s punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour.

God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I had seen that video previously but had forgotten his name.
It was really good. He's a character. Great insights.

He has a certain intellectual largesse lol.

Interesting point I thought when he postulated the god of Calvinism as far more malevolent than the devil! Next time I see a satanist, might tell them they're playing in the little league and should consider upgrading to 'the larger hopelessness' of Calvinism.

By the way, what do you think of the Christian eschatology categories as annihilationism, damnationism and restorationism (fits better than universalism I suggest)?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I appreciate this fanciful interpretation but it doesn't really address my post. But the passage says nothing about "holy fire."

Do you know of any natural fire that has saving power? (As in 'saved, but as through fire'.)

Doesn't really address my post.

What was it again?

But for the fact that Paul is not talking about all mankind in 1 Cor 3:9-17, he is only talking to and about those who are"laborers together with God, ... God's husbandry, ... God's building." Vs.9 Who builds on the foundation of Jesus Jesus Christ. vs. 10."
And this passage says nothing about purifying anyone. only the work is tried by fire not people.
In this passage “every man, “any man,”"no man" refers only to those described in vss. 9-10, not all man kind.
And we know this because in vs. 17 God will destroy any man who defiles the temple of God, NOT save them.
1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Ok, but numbers are not to the point. It's a fire that saves. Even fire that saves one person is a strange fire indeed, is it not?

I'd recommend our own Lazarus Short's thread on Godfire for a catalogue of this special Godfire that destroys the evil and delivers the man anew. Ecce homo!

 

[Saint Steven]

He has a certain intellectual largesse lol.

Interesting point I thought when he postulated the god of Calvinism as far more malevolent than the devil! Next time I see a satanist, might tell them they're playing in the little league and should consider upgrading to 'the larger hopelessness' of Calvinism.

By the way, what do you think of the Christian eschatology categories as annihilationism, damnationism and restorationism (fits better than universalism I suggest)?

Wow. I like Restorationism as a replacement for Universalism. I wonder what the objections from the other side would be with that term. ??? This is such a pioneering work. We even get to name it. - lol

 

[FineLinen]

Wow. I like Restorationism as a replacement for Universalism. I wonder what the objections from the other side would be with that term. ??? This is such a pioneering work. We even get to name it. - lol

There are a number of words that hold some lustre for the Restitution of the all.

• indemnity
• payment
• rebate
• redress
• refund
• reimbursement
• reparation
• restoration
• amends
• dues
• indemnification
• quittance
• recompense
• remuneration
• reprisal
• requital
• return
• satisfaction
• squaring things

 

[BNR32FAN]

As you don't know what the unforgivable sin is, you're left in the dark feeling around the elephant trying to put humpty dumpty back together using only a grammatical form that's been translated and removed from its cultural idiom.

What if Jesus is simply saying something akin to 'As long as you keep eating meat you'll never be a vegetarian'. You won't be able to access forgiveness as long as you keep blaming ppl for stuff. He's referring to attitudes that fall short of the beatitudes, and the consequences. It's like stoics - by insisting on being strong all the time they deny themselves anything but guilt and shame for their weakness. A hard heart can't experience forgiveness.

It's not a video game mate. This is real, you have to be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.

I would also add that no one knows for sure what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. Many claim to but it’s only based on their own assumption because Jesus never said exactly what it is.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are a number of words that hold some lustre for the Restitution of the all.

• indemnity
• payment
• rebate
• redress
• refund
• reimbursement
• reparation
• restoration
• amends
• dues
• indemnification
• quittance
• recompense
• remuneration
• reprisal
• requital
• return
• satisfaction
• squaring things

We could create a calendar and change terms every week. Imagine the catch with that bait. - lol

John 21:6
He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

We could create a calendar and change terms every week. Imagine the catch with that bait. - lol

John 21:6
He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.

I've been using that scripture in defence of Biblical flat earth apologetics lol. But why not? Damnation to port (fried fish there), restoration to starboard.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I would also add that no one knows for sure what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. Many claim to but it’s only based on their own assumption because Jesus never said exactly what it is.

Don't care. Faith is all that's required to fill the gaps. Just a little can move mountains, y'know.

 

[Saint Steven]

I would also add that no one knows for sure what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. Many claim to but it’s only based on their own assumption because Jesus never said exactly what it is.

You are correct to note that there is no consensus on this. I would blame Cessationism. However, it was quite clear to me what he meant. The bold statement below is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Attributing the work of God to Satan. IMHO

Matthew 12:24-28
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

 

[Saint Steven]

I've been using that scripture in defence of Biblical flat earth apologetics lol. But why not? Damnation to port (fried fish there), restoration to starboard.

No wonder they accuse us of casting about. - lol

--- DELETE ---

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No wonder they accuse us of casting about. - lol

Now that's funny. You can keep the other part.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You are correct to note that there is no consensus on this. I would blame Cessationism. However, it was quite clear to me what he meant. The bold statement below is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Attributing the work of God to Satan. IMHO

Matthew 12:24-28
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Yes, it's to do with rejection of the kingdom, because that's what the HS is here to help bring in. So, if you don't forgive others, how will you be forgiven etc? It's part of his well-known gospel teaching of right relationships, expressed in the 'aionion sense' ie it holds true for all times and places.