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The fatal flaw of Universalism

Oldmantook

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Evidently God wants some of His creation to live a life of sin so He can punish them for some period of time in fire before He "draws" them to Himself.
It's unwise to speak for God particularly when you do not represent His view point. We all have sinned not just "some" as you allege. Therefore it is all the more remarkable that He would choose all to draw/drag to Himself as He wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
 
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Oldmantook

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Luke simply says it will not be forgiven. No mention of aion or aionios or any length of time is given. So if at any time blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgiven then Luke 12:10 is a false statement.Matthew also says it will not be forgiven in verse 31 and says it won’t be forgiven in this age/time or the one to come (in this world/life or the next) Mark even provides a contrasting statement between sins that will be forgiven in contrast to sin against the Holy Spirit which will never be forgiven which is guilty of an eternal sin. Now it wouldn’t make much sense to say all sins will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit won’t be forgiven for a little while.

“"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" -”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:28-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is an obvious contrasting statement between sins that will be forgiven and the sin that won’t be forgiven.
Poor hermeneutics. You choose to believe the Lukan passage while completely ignoring the Matthean passage. Blasphemy is unique among sins as it is basically a denial of God. So of course one cannot be forgiven by God if one does not even acknowledge God in the first place thus your logical argument falls apart.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Dear BNR: We appreciate you demonstrating your grasp of this age and the next age.

An aion is exactly that, a limited degree of time followed by another & another & another, ultimatley culminating in "time shall be no more."

The Doctrine of the Ages in the Bible. | The Gospel | Glory (Religion)

Chapter 17 – Translations of Owlam, Aion, and Aionios – Gods Plan for All

But it CAN also be used in reference to an eternal length of time. It’s used in the scriptures to describe God’s glory, God’s reign, God’s power, God’s kingdom, our life in heaven, all examples of things which are eternal and not for a limited time. Will there be a time when God’s glory be no more? Or His power, or His reign, or His kingdom, or our life in heaven? Will all these come to an end? Will ANY of these come to an end?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Poor hermeneutics. You choose to believe the Lukan passage while completely ignoring the Matthean passage. Blasphemy is unique among sins as it is basically a denial of God. So of course one cannot be forgiven by God if one does not even acknowledge God in the first place thus your logical argument falls apart.

No, I’m comparing all three and the implications of all three. Also Jesus was accused of blasphemy by saying He is the Son of God so blasphemy is not just denial of God. Even the statement in Mark contrasting between sins that will be forgiven with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which won’t be forgiven still supports Luke 12:10 and so does Matthew 12:31. I’ve already proven that aion and aionios can mean eternal.
 
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FineLinen

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Luke simply says it will not be forgiven. No mention of aion or aionios or any length of time is given.

And St. Matthew clarifies the scope! No forgiveness in this age or the next.

New International Version
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

New Living Translation
Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

English Standard Version
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Berean Study Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

Berean Literal Bible
And if anyone speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but if anyone speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming one.

New American Standard Bible
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

New King James Version
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

King James Bible
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Christian Standard Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

Good News Translation
Anyone who says something against the Son of Man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven--now or ever.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

International Standard Version
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."

NET Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

New Heart English Bible
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Everyone who will say a word against The Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever will speak against The Spirit of Holiness, it will not be forgiven to him, not in this world, neither in the world that is being prepared.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next.

New American Standard 1977
“And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come.

King James 2000 Bible
And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

American King James Version
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

American Standard Version
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Darby Bible Translation
And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming [one].

English Revised Version
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

Webster's Bible Translation
And whoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Weymouth New Testament
And whoever shall speak against the Son of Man may obtain forgiveness; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, neither in this nor in the coming age shall he obtain forgiveness."

World English Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come.

Young's Literal Translation
And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.
 
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Charlie24

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And St. Matthew clarifies the scope! No forgiveness in this age or the next.

New International Version
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

New Living Translation
Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

English Standard Version
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Berean Study Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

Berean Literal Bible
And if anyone speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but if anyone speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming one.

New American Standard Bible
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

New King James Version
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

King James Bible
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Christian Standard Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

Good News Translation
Anyone who says something against the Son of Man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven--now or ever.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

International Standard Version
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."

NET Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

New Heart English Bible
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Everyone who will say a word against The Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever will speak against The Spirit of Holiness, it will not be forgiven to him, not in this world, neither in the world that is being prepared.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next.

New American Standard 1977
“And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come.

King James 2000 Bible
And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

American King James Version
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

American Standard Version
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Darby Bible Translation
And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming [one].

English Revised Version
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

Webster's Bible Translation
And whoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Weymouth New Testament
And whoever shall speak against the Son of Man may obtain forgiveness; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, neither in this nor in the coming age shall he obtain forgiveness."

World English Bible
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come.

Young's Literal Translation
And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.

Charlie 13:13
Forever means forever, everlasting means everlasting, eternal means eternal. And he who believes otherwise is not wise.
 
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FineLinen

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But it CAN also be used in reference to an eternal length of time.

Nonsense! An age is an age is an age.

There are exactly two passages of Canon using the word "eternal", that word is aidios, both in reference to the Aidios God of Glory.

There is no such animal as an "eternal length of time." God is eternal. (period)!
 
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FineLinen

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Charlie 13:13
Forever means forever, everlasting means everlasting, eternal means eternal. And he who believes otherwise is not wise.

Aidios is eternal, everlasting is aionios.

St. John clearly defines aionios not as a time word, but rather as quality.

"This is zoe aionios, that we may know You...."
 
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Charlie24

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Aidios is eternal, everlasting is aionios.

St. John clearly defines aionios not as a time word, but rather as quality.

"This is zoe aionios, that we may know You...."

Charlie scripture is for those who submit themselves and come as little children.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Aidios is eternal, everlasting is aionios.

St. John clearly defines aionios not as a time word, but rather as quality.

"This is zoe aionios, that we may know You...."

Aion G165 is used in these verses.

“'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [ For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.' ]”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never (G3756 Not with G165 Ever=Never) has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" -”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“He said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:33‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:51, 58‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:36‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I can find a lot more like these that are obviously not temporary.
 
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Der Alte

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It's unwise to speak for God particularly when you do not represent His view point. We all have sinned not just "some" as you allege. Therefore it is all the more remarkable that He would choose all to draw/drag to Himself as He wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
I am not speaking for God I am describing what it appears that Universalists are saying. e.g. my previous post.
Evidently God wants some of His creation to live a life of sin so He can punish them for some period of time in fire before He "draws" them to Himself.
All people do sin but some, not all, live a life of sin in opposition to God's laws their entire lives. Universalists argue that God will forcibly draw all men to Himself, even the unrighteous after death.
Somehow, I don't know how, when this supposedly happens evil, unrighteous people will be converted to righteous God loving people.
If God can change evil people into God loving people, after death, why does He allow some people to live evilly all their lives, punish them for some period of time then forcibly draw them to Himself where they then become God loving people?
 
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Oldmantook

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No, I’m comparing all three and the implications of all three. Also Jesus was accused of blasphemy by saying He is the Son of God so blasphemy is not just denial of God. Even the statement in Mark contrasting between sins that will be forgiven with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which won’t be forgiven still supports Luke 12:10 and so does Matthew 12:31. I’ve already proven that aion and aionios can mean eternal.
Aion and aionios never means eternal. Aion means age of time; like eon. How can an adjective modify its noun by not only modifying its meaning but instead have a totally opposite meaning? How can the noun age have an adjective which means eternal?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Aion and aionios never means eternal. Aion means age of time; like eon. How can an adjective modify its noun by not only modifying its meaning but instead have a totally opposite meaning? How can the noun age have an adjective which means eternal?

How can God’s power, reign, glory, and kingdom be temporary?
 
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Oldmantook

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I am not speaking for God I am describing what it appears that Universalists are saying. e.g. my previous post.
Evidently God wants some of His creation to live a life of sin so He can punish them for some period of time in fire before He "draws" them to Himself.
All people do sin but some, not all, live a life of sin in opposition to God's laws their entire lives. Universalists argue that God will forcibly draw all men to Himself, even the unrighteous after death.
Somehow, I don't know how, when this supposedly happens evil, unrighteous people will be converted to righteous God loving people.
If God can change evil people into God loving people, after death, why does He allow some people to live evilly all their lives, punish them for some period of time then forcibly draw them to Himself where they then become God loving people?
He allows them to live evilly because they choose to live such lives. He doesn't interfere in their ability to choose. Even as believers saved by grace, we still have the choice to sin or not to sin. Choosing to sin has consequences though such as ending up in the lake of fire. It seems to me that we have a choice in this life; to believe and obey God now by dying to ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him. Or if we choose not to confess Jesus as Lord and bow our knee now, then there will come a time when every knee shall bow in heaven, on the earth, under the earth and confess that Jesus is Lord (Phil 2:10-11). God has sworn Himself to it (Isaiah 45:23). And we know that what God swears to do, He will certainly accomplish it.
 
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Oldmantook

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How can God’s power, reign, glory, and kingdom be temporary?
God's reign is not temporary. Jesus' reign is temporary until such time that he puts down every rule, authority and power and then delivers the kingdom to God, the Father as described in 1 Cor 15:24-25. Jesus reigns until He puts all enemies under his feet and subjects Himself to the Father so that the Father is glorified.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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Luke simply says it will not be forgiven. No mention of aion or aionios or any length of time is given. So if at any time blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgiven then Luke 12:10 is a false statement.Matthew also says it will not be forgiven in verse 31 and says it won’t be forgiven in this age/time or the one to come (in this world/life or the next) Mark even provides a contrasting statement between sins that will be forgiven in contrast to sin against the Holy Spirit which will never be forgiven which is guilty of an eternal sin. Now it wouldn’t make much sense to say all sins will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit won’t be forgiven for a little while.

“"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" -”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:28-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is an obvious contrasting statement between sins that will be forgiven and the sin that won’t be forgiven.

As you don't know what the unforgivable sin is, you're left in the dark feeling around the elephant trying to put humpty dumpty back together using only a grammatical form that's been translated and removed from its cultural idiom.

What if Jesus is simply saying something akin to 'As long as you keep eating meat you'll never be a vegetarian'. You won't be able to access forgiveness as long as you keep blaming ppl for stuff. He's referring to attitudes that fall short of the beatitudes, and the consequences. It's like stoics - by insisting on being strong all the time they deny themselves anything but guilt and shame for their weakness. A hard heart can't experience forgiveness.

It's not a video game mate. This is real, you have to be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.
 
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Der Alte

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He allows them to live evilly because they choose to live such lives. He doesn't interfere in their ability to choose. Even as believers saved by grace, we still have the choice to sin or not to sin. Choosing to sin has consequences though such as ending up in the lake of fire. It seems to me that we have a choice in this life; to believe and obey God now by dying to ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him. Or if we choose not to confess Jesus as Lord and bow our knee now, then there will come a time when every knee shall bow in heaven, on the earth, under the earth and confess that Jesus is Lord (Phil 2:10-11). God has sworn Himself to it (Isaiah 45:23). And we know that what God swears to do, He will certainly accomplish it.
Please explain to me how this "Choosing to sin has consequences though such as ending up in the lake of fire." gets "to every knee shall bow in heaven, on the earth, under the earth and confess that Jesus is Lord" and this gets to loving and serving God? Where and how does this complete change in personality occur? Some scripture would helpful.
 
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Saint Steven

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Here's an interview with the man himself...if you dare:
I had seen that video previously but had forgotten his name.
It was really good. He's a character. Great insights.
 
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Saint Steven

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That wasn’t the basis for my refutation, it was the fact that Jesus said that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. He also said not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter heaven. This is a crystal clear indication that not everyone will enter heaven. This means that there WILL BE people who say to Him Lord Lord who will not enter heaven. If at anytime everyone enters heaven then Matthew 7:21 is a false statement. The rich man in the story about Lazarus was repentant in hades and he wasn’t allowed to cross over.
When the Universal Restitution commences, you can be first to stand up and call God a liar. Fair enough?
 
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