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THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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Lazarus Short

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I can not say what is on my mind---the website would kick me out!
You've been told for years---it's the same answer---DEATH IS NO MORE!!! as in, doesn't exist because it will never happen again. I'm sorry if you can't hear the bell---it's been ringing for years. Ask the next 5 year old you encounter.

The ashes you plan to tread on in Heaven say otherwise. I tend to think a five-year-old would readily understand that if some are still dead, then death still exists. To me, it's as plain as the heavens above. I'm picturing Jesus the Christ in heaven with His enemies, including Death, at His feet, serving as His footstool. Would the death part of the footstool be embroidered with "Some are still dead"? I think not.

No, just as we should not have said that smallpox is eradicated, while samples of it were still in a deep-freeze in some lab, we should not crow that death is defeated while corpses are still under the grass.
 
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ClementofA

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YES!!! AND ALWAYS WILL BE!!! NO WAKING UP!! NO LIFE!! CEASE TO EXIST----DEAD!!!

Nothing else ever will die. Glad you got it!

God will be "all in ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL" (1 Cor.15:28).
 
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Basil the Great

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I read somewhere that there were 5 or 6 Theological Schools in the Early Church. Three (or four) taught Universalism, one was neutral on the subject and the only one that taught eternal punishment was in Rome and as we all know, Rome's position won out in the end. Now, I have Universalist leanings. However, I do find it hard to believe that a few people who are so thoroughly evil, like Hitler and other mass murderers, will ever want to be won over to the side of goodness.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I read somewhere that there were 5 or 6 Theological Schools in the Early Church. Three (or four) taught Universalism, one was neutral on the subject and the only one that taught eternal punishment was in Rome and as we all know, Rome's position won out in the end. Now, I have Universalist leanings. However, I do find it hard to believe that a few people who are so thoroughly evil, like Hitler and other mass murderers, will ever want to be won over to the side of goodness.

It is not wise to limit God, for He can (and will!) convert the worst, and Herr Hitler is not the worst.
 
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Basil the Great

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It is not wise to limit God, for He can (and will!) convert the worst, and Herr Hitler is not the worst.
I once exposed such a belief and I still do not rule out the possibility. However, I no longer believe that such will probably happen.
 
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ClementofA

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I read somewhere that there were 5 or 6 Theological Schools in the Early Church. Three (or four) taught Universalism, one was neutral on the subject and the only one that taught eternal punishment was in Rome and as we all know, Rome's position won out in the end. Now, I have Universalist leanings. However, I do find it hard to believe that a few people who are so thoroughly evil, like Hitler and other mass murderers, will ever want to be won over to the side of goodness.

Mass murders? Saul who became Paul, the chief of sinners? It didn't take much to convert him. And in only a few minutes?
 
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Lazarus Short

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I once exposed such a belief and I still do not rule out the possibility. However, I no longer believe that such will probably happen.

I once wondered if God is both willing and able to save all. I did find Scriptures that indicated that He was willing, but one day I realized in a flash that, of course, He is able, for He is omnipotent. Slam dunk.
 
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Basil the Great

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Mass murders? Saul who became Paul, the chief of sinners? It didn't take much to convert him.
I am no big fan of him, by any means, but I hardly think that Saul/Paul was a mass murderer.
 
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ClementofA

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I am no big fan of him, by any means, but I hardly think that Saul/Paul was a mass murderer.



"Paul probably handled thousands of cases of Christians that were put to death before he was converted."

https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-did-the-apostle-Paul-murder-when-he-was-Saul-of-Tarsus

God would be more concerned with intent than death tolls, anyway. Likely the intent of Saul's murderous heart would have been to wipe out every Christian in existence.

Did Hitler directly kill anyone?
 
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Basil the Great

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"Paul probably handled thousands of cases of Christians that were put to death before he was converted."

https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-did-the-apostle-Paul-murder-when-he-was-Saul-of-Tarsus

God would be more concerned with intent than death tolls, anyway. Likely the intent of Saul's murderous heart would have been to wipe out every Christian in existence.

Did Hitler directly kill anyone?
I do not know if Hitler directly killed anyone, but few people doubt but what he was responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people.
 
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ClementofA

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I find it quite revealing that you refuse to answer my question about about who are those that WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and who SHALL ENTER the city gates when the saints by definition already possess the right to the tree of life and have already taken up residence in the new Jerusalem. Your avoidance in answering my direct question to you certainly doesn't do much to support or advance your belief.

It might be interesting & worthwhile to start a thread on this subject.

What do you think, OMT?
 
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FineLinen

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I read somewhere that there were 5 or 6 Theological Schools in the Early Church. Three (or four) taught Universalism, one was neutral on the subject and the only one that taught eternal punishment was in Rome and as we all know, Rome's position won out in the end. Now, I have Universalist leanings. However, I do find it hard to believe that a few people who are so thoroughly evil, like Hitler and other mass murderers, will ever want to be won over to the side of goodness.

You are correct regarding the Theological schools. Those schools were divided into 3 main groupings.

You have missed a few other deplorable rascals, some of whom slaughtered over 50 million. I would not be anxious to trade places with them when the God whose essence is Fire deals with them.

I not only lean to the restitution of the all. The Word stares down my long nose to shall > > >

The whole of created life SHALL BE delivered.

The good, the bad (the really bad) & the ugly. The radical all!
 
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Oldmantook

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Nope! That's you guys---can't understand death being done away with!
Where did you get that false notion from?? Since you believe that death entails the ashes of sinners, how does your belief reconcile with God's stated purpose that He will reconcile all to himself?
Col 1:17And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things, 19because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, 20and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.

The death/annihilation of sinners directly contradicts God's stated purpose in this passage of scripture as those who are annihilated remain forever unreconciled to God. You are free of course to disagree with God.
 
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ClementofA

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I can not say what is on my mind---the website would kick me out!
You've been told for years---it's the same answer---DEATH IS NO MORE!!! as in, doesn't exist because it will never happen again. I'm sorry if you can't hear the bell---it's been ringing for years. Ask the next 5 year old you encounter.

Death is no more in the New heavens & earth of the context, not in the lake of fire. We know that because the creation of the new heavens & new earth did not include the lake of fire. So death is not yet abolished everywhere, since it then still will be existing in the LOF.

1 Cor.15: Verse 23 says "each in his own order":

22For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24a then the end,...

Three "orders" of resurrection are given:

1. Christ's (v.23)
2. those that are His at His coming (v.23)
3. the end (v.24) (i.e. the rest of humanity)

Together #2's & #3 make up the entirety of those "in Adam" (v.22). These will "in Christ" be made alive, as per the parallel of verse 22. And "in Christ" in Scripture indicates salvation. So all "in Adam" will be saved.

Fortunately, no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

it's not just "enemies under His feet" (v.25), but ALL (cf. v.22, ALL) will be in subjection "under His feet":

27a For “He has put in subjection all things under His feet.”

The only exception being God:

27b But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted.

Again in v.28 we see - all - in subjection, & here even the Son is in subjection:

28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

All in all. See again v.22 "all".

1 Cor.15:22-28 takes us beyond Revelation 20-22:

"In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
• No more rule
• No more authority
• No more power
• No more enemies
• No more reigning
• All subjected
• No more death, death destroyed.
• All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:

• Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
• Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
• Authority (21:24,25)
• Power (21:24,25; 22:2
• Kings (21:24-26)
• Saints reign (22:5)
• Second death still exists (21:5)
• The nations still mortal (22:2)"

An Analytical Study of Words | Love Wins Because God Is Love…

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;
2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;
3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).

…But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days after His death.
2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.
3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom.

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

There is still reigning after people experience the second death:

"Let us see: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall
be therein" (Rev. 22:3). "And his servants shall serve
him" and "they shall reign for the ages of the ages"
(Rev. 22:3-5). "The Kings of the earth bring their
glory into the New Jerusalem" (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes,
rule, authority, and power are still present on the New
Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning,"

Death is not abolished while there is still reigning:

1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Therefore death is not abolished with people still dead in the lake of fire. And this is yet to happen after people are cast into the lake of fire:

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)

The LOF is second death. When that death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) then God will become "All in all" (v.28) including everyone who was ever in Adam (v.22), i.e. universal salvation.
Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.
 
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Oldmantook

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It might be interesting & worthwhile to start a thread on this subject.

What do you think, OMT?
In my experience (and probably in yours as well) most people never change their doctrinal views. They believe what they were initially taught and rarely question what they were taught. That is human nature as we tend to encounter cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias when we are first exposed to teachings that differ from what we firmly believe. I am no exception to that as I was taught in a seminary where all my professors were Reformed in their doctrinal belief and taught accordingly. I just accepted what I was taught but later on after several years of study on my own, I no longer believe in eternal security. Same thing with Christian Universalism. As I studied the subject, I had to overcome my biases and "unlearn" what I was previously taught to believe in order to dig for the truth. You can certainly start a thread on the subject if you wish but I won't do so as it requires too much of my time responding to the replies - most of whom won't change their minds anyway.
 
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ClementofA

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In my experience (and probably in yours as well) most people never change their doctrinal views. They believe what they were initially taught and rarely question what they were taught. That is human nature as we tend to encounter cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias when we are first exposed to teachings that differ from what we firmly believe. I am no exception to that as I was taught in a seminary where all my professors were Reformed in their doctrinal belief and taught accordingly. I just accepted what I was taught but later on after several years of study on my own, I no longer believe in eternal security. Same thing with Christian Universalism. As I studied the subject, I had to overcome my biases and "unlearn" what I was previously taught to believe in order to dig for the truth. You can certainly start a thread on the subject if you wish but I won't do so as it requires too much of my time responding to the replies - most of whom won't change their minds anyway.

Understood. Anyway, i'll keep an eye on your posts to obtain more insights into the Greek & what your posts have revealed in this thread & many others. Thanks!
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I find it quite revealing that you refuse to answer my question about about who are those that WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and who SHALL ENTER the city gates when the saints by definition already possess the right to the tree of life and have already taken up residence in the new Jerusalem. Your avoidance in answering my direct question to you certainly doesn't do much to support or advance your belief.
Everything you have asked has been answered here in post # 462 linked and post # 533 linked. What is it you claim I have not answered? For me I find it quite revealing you have not addressed these posts and the scriptures in them showing your claims to be in error by leaving out context.

Context is to REVELATION 22:11-15, JESUS making the proclaimation [11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, BEHOLD I COME QUICKLY AND MY REWARD IS WITH ME TO GIVE TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE.

The rewards for God's saint who keep His commandments *REVELATION 14:12 and REVELATION 22:14 and those of the wicked *REVELATION 22:12 and REVELATION 22:15.

The reward of the righteous saints..

REVELATION 22:14 [14], BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Then the reward of the wicked here...

[15], FOR WITHOUT ARE DOGS, AND SORCERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND MURDERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND WHOEVER LOVES AND MAKES A LIE.

Context matters dear friend and this is what you have left out.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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FineLinen

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Everything you have asked has been answered...

I will present a couple of questions, asked numerous times with nutin but long posts of your unhelpful posts with zero answer.

#1. If the vast, vast segments of our Father's broken sinners are annihilation (ed) as per article #7 of your credo, how can ta pavnte be true?

Source, Guide, Goal of ta pavnte
 
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ClementofA

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2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. [4], And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.

Fables? Like ECT & annihilationism?

That passage is well applied to those who love the idea of a monster-god who torments many of his creatures for all the endless ages of eternity:

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands,
sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

Their - pathologically - "itching ears" do "gather around them a great number of teachers to say what" they "want to hear" to "suit their own (patholigical) desires". Compare, for example, the KKK, the Pharisees, & the like, of which there are many millions.

2 Tim.4:3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own DESIRES. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to MYTHS.

Myths? There are various endless punishment "myths", e.g. those believed by most Muslims, those believed by some Jews, various types believed in by various Christian denominations. Some even think aborted babies will be burning forever.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Fables. Myths. Like endless torments as described by the likes of Jonathan Edwards & the Christ rejecting Jews (e.g. the Pharisees), to try to control the masses - & their bank accounts - with fear.
 
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Saint Steven

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He is so loving.. that He will not make those that don't want to spend eternity with Him.. spend eternity in a place that they don't want to be...
Right... so he tosses them in a furnace instead. That's crazy! (how kind)
 
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