the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

[LittleNipper]

You could say that, but that would not make it true. The bible does not say anything about these who are cast into the lake of fire beyond that they are cast into the lake, you infer based on the fate of the devil that it is the fate of all in the lake but that is a faulty inference.

Two things to remember, 1; It is talking about the dead 2; There is no passage anywhere in the bible that tells us who is or is not in the book of life.

Why are you afraid of an eternal hell? I feel everyone who goes to either heaven or hell will be more contented where they end up. That is not to say hell will be pleasent, it is just that while everyone will one day declare that Jesus Christ is LORD, the though remains that those with adversion to GOD will rather burn for all eternity then grace heaven with a GOD they want NOTHING to do with...

 

[Soul Searcher]

Why are you afraid of an eternal hell? I feel everyone who goes to either heaven or hell will be more contented where they end up. That is not to say hell will be pleasent, it is just that while everyone will one day declare that Jesus Christ is LORD, the though remains that those with adversion to GOD will rather burn for all eternity then grace heaven with a GOD they want NOTHING to do with...

Who do you know that is this type of lunatic? No one, repeat no one would ever want to burn in hell for all eternity, the concept is just crazy.

I am not afraid because I know that it does not exist.

It is those who believe thier neighbor will go there and suffer for all eternity and say it is justice that make my blood boil.

 

[LittleNipper]

Who do you know that is this type of lunatic? No one, repeat no one would ever want to burn in hell for all eternity, the concept is just crazy.

I am not afraid because I know that it does not exist.

It is those who believe thier neighbor will go there and suffer for all eternity and say it is justice that make my blood boil.

I am not the one afraid, because I will not go there and MY beliefs are not misguiding people into a false sense of security with regard to the sort of eternity they will inherit.

No one will want to burn in hell forever; however, GOD knows that the altenative for that individual would be far worse given the sinful state which he embraced. GOD could not live with an eternal sinner any more then the non redeemed sinner could live forever with a perfect and righteous GOD.
The eternal separation is mutually acceptable.

 

[gort]

SS quote:

You could say that, but that would not make it true. The bible does not say anything about these who are cast into the lake of fire beyond that they are cast into the lake, you infer based on the fate of the devil that it is the fate of all in the lake but that is a faulty inference.

Hello,
You need to understand that I don't make this stuff up. I believe the bible to be the inerrant word of GOd.

Satan was an angel once who rejected God. And as you say, there is nothing about these people in the bible that states anything beyond that they are cast into the LOF.
Nevertheless, they are cast into the same boat as satan.

Two things to remember, 1; It is talking about the dead 2; There is no passage anywhere in the bible that tells us who is or is not in the book of life.

Yes, they are the dead. The spiritually dead. Those not in Christ Jesus.

ANd yes, please note the scripture says "IF ANY are not found in the BOL"

IF

btw, upon further reflection, I might have an understanding of what you meant by "smiling" christians.

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[Soul Searcher]

I am not the one afraid, because I will not go there and MY beliefs are not misguiding people into a false sense of security with regard to the sort of eternity they will inherit.

So you are saying as long as you don't go there you are not afraid? What about your neighbor, friends, family? If the doctorine is true then most of these will be suffering in hell for all eternity. You're ok with that I assume, you are able to sleep at night and have a smile on your face knowing in your heart that many of those to who you have loved will be tortured?

Personally I could never be that cold hearted.

No one will want to burn in hell forever; however, GOD knows that the altenative for that individual would be far worse given the sinful state which he embraced. GOD could not live with an eternal sinner any more then the non redeemed sinner could live forever with a perfect and righteous GOD.
The eternal separation is mutually acceptable.

And no one will burn forever, which is the point of the thread.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Hello,
You need to understand that I don't make this stuff up. I believe the bible to be the inerrant word of GOd.
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Ok then, answer this.....if EVERYTHING (all of heaven and all of earth) will be burnt to nothing and all the elements will be melted to nada by "peter's fire" then how can there be anything left over in the new creation (to burn for ever)?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Yes, they are the dead. The spiritually dead. Those not in Christ Jesus.

Not just spiritually dead, physically dead, do you honestly think Christ will resurect the dead for the sole purpose of eternal torment? I don't think so, If any are resurected who were not saved it will be for the purpose of saving them, the method may well be tormenting but will not be eternal.

ANd yes, please note the scripture says "IF ANY are not found in the BOL"

And right after that it also says the fearful and unbelieveing adulters murders and all liars, will have thier part in the lake as well, which indicates to me that even those in the book of life will take a part in this LOF whatever it symbolizes.

btw, upon further reflection, I might have an understanding of what you meant by "smiling" christians.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Satan was an angel once who rejected God. And as you say, there is nothing about these people in the bible that states anything beyond that they are cast into the LOF.
Nevertheless, they are cast into the same boat as satan.

missed this part before,

Satan was not an angel who rejected God, he was the serpent, who was cursed by God in the garden of Eden. The passage in Is. that most point to has nothing to do with satan, not to mention that it takes place long after Eden, Lucifer is not the name of satan, the word is latin and means light bearer.

 

[gort]

SS quote:

Not just spiritually dead, physically dead, do you honestly think Christ will resurect the dead for the sole purpose of eternal torment? I don't think so, If any are resurected who were not saved it will be for the purpose of saving them, the method may well be tormenting but will not be eternal.

In the 1st resurrection, death has no power over these. They are in Christ Jesus.
In the 2nd resurrection, these are the ones not in Christ Jesus, and death has power over these. This is known as the "White Throne" judgement.

And right after that it also says the fearful and unbelieveing adulters murders and all liars, will have thier part in the lake as well, which indicates to me that even those in the book of life will take a part in this LOF whatever it symbolizes.

Those who are in Christ Jesus have already been in the 1st resurrection. They are clothed in white. Jesus has taken their sins upon Himself. There will be no LOF for these.

But the christian will be judged by their works......in what we did with what we were given. The bible does'nt really say what these rewards are (it may, but right now I'm not sure) but I lean towards these reward as "crowns".

missed this part before,

Satan was not an angel who rejected God, he was the serpent, who was cursed by God in the garden of Eden. The passage in Is. that most point to has nothing to do with satan, not to mention that it takes place long after Eden, Lucifer is not the name of satan, the word is latin and means light bearer.

Well, that's another thread. You might check the "satan" thread on page 2 of this UT forum.

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[gort]

Flynmonkie quote:

Believe it or not, I agree and am concerned. I fear these things too. Not that I believe in the fear factor of sharing the gospel. (This is not how I believe God shares it with us) I can see validity on both sides. I have grown accustomed to saying a total separation from God, because I am not sure of what this truly "consists" of except for that.

I would agree with you in all points here.

For how do we share the gospel if we do not have a good understanding of it ourselves? I cannot consciously respond to someone asking why the Bible said the world and the works therin will be burned UP. Yet on the other hand they will be thrown into a lake of fire burning forever and ever in torment. So which is it?

The world and the works therein would have a different meaning than that of the soul.

Not to mention all the other verses mentioned here. Yet saying a total separation from God seems to be sitting on a fence. And we all know who owns that.

I don't think that saying a total separation from God is sitting on the fence. The bible tells us that God's Light shines on the just and the unjust. It is hard to imagine what life would be like without any of that Light whatsoever. Perhaps that is the torment.

I don’t believe Hell Fire needs to be preached for understanding of Gods love and mercy. However He is Just and that is equally important. I don't agree that it underestimates the pains of hell, perhaps it is telling us just that we need to be sharing the gospel in a different manner? Because this is not the point.

By what you say, then you have an understanding of "agape" love. A love the world knows nothing of. This leads to a preaching of that agape love, in Christ Jesus. But the side of rejecting that love does have its consequences, and that too must be told.
It is the work of the Holy Ghost to convict a person and show the Light of Truth in Christ Jesus. I can't change anybodies heart.

There was a time when many proclaimers of the Truth jumped on the Hellfire bandwagon. They found out that it increased church attendance, but for the wrong reasons. People were more interested in a scary roller coaster ride, so to speak.




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[LittleNipper]

So you are saying as long as you don't go there you are not afraid? What about your neighbor, friends, family? If the doctorine is true then most of these will be suffering in hell for all eternity. You're ok with that I assume, you are able to sleep at night and have a smile on your face knowing in your heart that many of those to who you have loved will be tortured?

Personally I could never be that cold hearted.



And no one will burn forever, which is the point of the thread.

I am not afraid of where I am going. I am afraid that my neighbors and friends might accept the retoric of some Universalist. Ultimately, I believe we are all responsible for our own life choices unless we place them in the hands of the Almighty ourselves...

 

[Soul Searcher]

I am not afraid of where I am going. I am afraid that my neighbors and friends might accept the retoric of some Universalist. Ultimately, I believe we are all responsible for our own life choices unless we place them in the hands of the Almighty ourselves...

Evaded the question

 

[LittleNipper]

Evaded the question

Not at all! I am witnessing to you too; presently, am I not?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Not at all! I am witnessing to you too; presently, am I not?

The question was, can you sleep at night believing that family, friends, neighbors will suffer for all eternity.

 

[bleechers]

As I told bleechers, those that end up rejecting God face a "for ever and ever" torment.

Maybe we should post some more verses not in Revelation regarding this subject.........oh...wait a minute.......I forgot.....I'm on your ignore list

Thanks, Daneel. Good stuff in your posts.

Consider the following verses in regard to Revelation 14 and "for ever and ever":

The streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched, its smoke shall go up for ever" (Is 34:9-10a)

Can this not be a metaphor for utter destruction? Do we believe that Edom will burn for eternity?


"From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever" (Is 34:10b).

Do we believe that Edom will lie waste for eternity? Can "for ever and ever" be different than "eternal" or "everlasting"?


Of Babylon it is said, it "shall be burned with fire" (Rev 18:8) and "the smoke from her goes up for ever and ever" (Rev 19:3).

Will Babylon's smoke truly go up for eternity, or is this an image used for utter destruction? The event is surely real, but is the imagery of the real event saying that the destruction is complete and without mercy?


"Alas, alas, for the great city . . . In one hour she has been laid waste. . . . and shall be found no more" (Rev 18:10, 17, 19, 21).

If the city is "found no more" can it truly be burning "for ever" (in the eternal sense). Can we look at this and say that the idea of "for ever and ever" smoke is a picture of Babylon's utter and absolute destruction in a way that it will never rise again (like Edom)?

Just some thoughts.

 

[gort]

Thanks, Daneel. Good stuff in your posts.

Consider the following verses in regard to Revelation 14 and "for ever and ever":

The streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched, its smoke shall go up for ever" (Is 34:9-10a)

Can this not be a metaphor for utter destruction? Do we believe that Edom will burn for eternity?


"From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever" (Is 34:10b).

Do we believe that Edom will lie waste for eternity? Can "for ever and ever" be different than "eternal" or "everlasting"?


Of Babylon it is said, it "shall be burned with fire" (Rev 18:8) and "the smoke from her goes up for ever and ever" (Rev 19:3).

Will Babylon's smoke truly go up for eternity, or is this an image used for utter destruction? The event is surely real, but is the imagery of the real event saying that the destruction is complete and without mercy?


"Alas, alas, for the great city . . . In one hour she has been laid waste. . . . and shall be found no more" (Rev 18:10, 17, 19, 21).

If the city is "found no more" can it truly be burning "for ever" (in the eternal sense). Can we look at this and say that the idea of "for ever and ever" smoke is a picture of Babylon's utter and absolute destruction in a way that it will never rise again (like Edom)?

Just some thoughts.

Fascinating visuals we find in the word of God.

Give me some time to respond, please. My brain is starting to leak onto the floor, and it's still so early in the day.

It's a price to pay for membership at CF UT.

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[gort]

excerpts from :

The Bible Knowledge Commentary

based on NIV

John F. Walvoord
Roy B. Zuck

Isaiah 34:9-17

As a result of God's sword of judgement on Edom, her land will seem to be ablaze (cf. Obad. 18) with sulfur (see comments on Isa. 30:33) and burning pitch, a tar-like substance seemingly unquenchable. The land will lie desolate for many generations (34:10; cf. v.11). Edoms cities and territories will be inhabited by wild birds and animals which do not normally inhabit populated villages and towns.......

for ever and ever, in this context:



H5331
&#1504;&#1510;&#1495; &#1504;&#1510;&#1495;
netsach ne&#770;tsach
neh'-tsakh, nay'-tsakh
From H5329; properly a goal, that is, the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (that is, to the most distant point of view): - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

forever and ever in this context:

G165
&#945;&#953;&#787;&#969;&#769;&#957;
aio&#772;n
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before Jehovah forever, from the sons of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

everlasting in this context:

H5769
&#1506;&#1500;&#1501; &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1501;
&#8219;o&#770;la&#770;m &#8219;o&#770;la&#770;m
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

 

[gort]

Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before Jehovah forever, from the sons of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

everlasting in this context:

H5769
&#1506;&#1500;&#1501; &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1501;
&#8219;o&#770;la&#770;m &#8219;o&#770;la&#770;m
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

Dan 4:3 How great are His signs! And how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and His rule is from generation to generation.

everlasting in this context:

H5957
&#1506;&#1500;&#1501;
&#8219;a&#770;lam
aw-lam'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5769; remote time, that is, the future or past indefinitely; often adverbially forever: - for([n-]) ever (lasting), old.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.

e-sword commentary:

The earth also and the works. The earth and all man's creations. That the world shall come to an end seems to be written in its very constitution. A slight change in the constitution of the atmosphere, or the decomposition of its water would wrap it in flame. Science finds the elements of final dissolution in the relations of the earth and sun. According to the ratio of increase in two centuries the world will not have resources to feed its population. In a few hundred years the coal resources of the world will fail. These and many other facts point to a necessary and inevitable change.


G2618
&#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#954;&#945;&#953;&#769;&#969;
katakaio&#772;
kat-ak-ah'ee-o
From G2596 and G2545; to burn down (to the ground), that is, consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth. And the things before will not be remembered, nor come to mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make stand before Me, says Jehovah, so will your seed and your name stand.

 

[gort]

Apparantly the word "everlasting, for ever and ever" seem to have different meanings, depending on context, just as the word "love" has. Notice the differences, and specially when it comes to God's everlasting kingdom, and everlasting judgements. Of special interest, perhaps is Isa. 65:17.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

everlasting in this context:

G166
&#945;&#953;&#787;&#969;&#769;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
aio&#772;nios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

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[elman]

Everlasting punishment and everlasting death or everlasting non existence may all be the same thing.