Dottie said:
[size=-1]Now here we have four different accounts from four different men, of the events that occurred that surrounded the discovery that Jesus had risen from the dead. Whose account then do we take as being the inspired word of God? Was it Matthew's? Was it Marks? Was it Luke's? Or was it John's?
Granted, the important thing here is that He arose, and that we believe that. But if Matthew's, Mark's, Luke's and John's writings are all the inspired word of God, then it seems that God told each of them something different.[/size]
Four
separate accounts does
NOT mean four
different accounts. Are you assuming there is a conflict or contradiction among the four gospels
? Why are Matthew, Mark, and Luke called the
synoptic gospels, do you know what
synoptic means
? You are still working hard trying to tear down the Bible. Your arguments can be found at many anti-Bible, anti-Christian, Atheist-Я-Us, or Islamic-Jihad websites. If you are a Christian, why are you using the enemys arguments to attack Gods word
?
Once again, had you actually sought the truth, you would have found scores of websites that answer all your anti-Christian, anti-Bible, arguments. Simply Google on
Bible Contradictions (or errors) Refuted. There are several sites that list all the so-called errors and contradictions by book, chapter, and verse. But again this assumes that you are interested in the TRUTH, not just trashing the Bible.
Dottie said:
[size=-1]And so here we have Matthew's account which speaks nothing as to Jesus' last words before He died, but simply says that "He cried with a loud voice, and yielded up the spirit" and then concentrates on on the story of how the temple was rent in two because of an earthquake; the graves being opened and many of the bodies of the Saints that slept rising; coming out of their tombs and appearing to many after Jesus was resurrected, which is not found in any of the other three accounts of the events occurring at the time of the crucifiction. And that I find quite strange, considering that a happening like this would have been a most uncommon and miraculous occurence.
Mark says the same; that "He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the spirit". While Luke says that Jesus cried with a loud voice, and said, "Father. into my hands I commend my spirit, and having said thus, he gave up the spirit".
And we have John saying that when Jesus had recieved the vinegar, He said, "It is finished", and He bowed his head and gave up the spirit.
So which of these accounts are we to believe in reference to what the last thing that Jesus actually said before He died? Or does it really matter? (Personally, I think it does, because everything that Jesus said; what He said, and when and why He said it, was important, had meaning, and did very much matter.)
Which one of these accounts do you reckon, as you say, those "Early Christians all across the Mediteranean basin" believed, as they read or listened to them being read?[/size]
See my previous answer. Anyone interested in TRUTH would know the accounts are
complementary, not contradictory. For example, where do Matthew, Mark, or Luke, say that Jesus did
not say
It is finished, as recorded in John
? I wonder if someone standing closer to a person would hear and understand what the person may say, while someone standing farther away would only hear that something was said, but not understand it?
No, lets not use any logic here were too intent on just trashing everything about the Bible.
Instead of digging for every scrap of half baked writing you can find to attack the Bible, e.g. your favorite quote from the gospel according to Saint Josephus, had you really studied the Bible, and its history, written by dedicated Godly scholars, you would have found that all your worn out, tired, old arguments have been answered many, many, times over.
Your fallacious argument is like the story of four blind men who are shown an elephant. One at the elephants tusk said an,
An elephant is long and sharp like a spear. One by the ear said,
An elephant is flat and flexible like a piece of leather. One by the side said,
An elephant is big and solid like a wall. And one by the leg said,
An elephant is tall and round like tree. Which blind man was correct?
Dottie said:
[size=-1]I do believe that the very first verse of Isa.14 would tell those with ears to hear, the meaning of the proverb.
1. "For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob."
The apostle Paul to the once pagan Ephesaians:
Eph.2: 11. "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;. . . [/size]
First, you have to prove that was written by Paul and that we have this epistle exactly as originally written, not corrupted by lies, myths and legends, etc. Can you do that
? And after proving that, then you must prove that Isaiah was prophesying about events 700 years in the future, and
not speaking about immediate events involving the king of Babylon, then and there. Then prove that
all the events in Isaiah 14 were fulfilled by the church at Ephesus, or any other N.T. church.
Dottie said:
[size=-1]It is clear to me that the proverb, or parable addresses the time when Jesus would come and establish His cleansed new kingdom; the spiritural Israel, which would put down every other kingdom, as Dan.2:44 prophesies that He would. [/size]
The most ridiculous, wild eyed corruption of scripture I have ever heard. Please explain to me how you get what the Lord would do 700 years
after the time of Isaiah, when Isaiah was talking about the cruel reign, and death of the King of Babylon who was very well known to Isaiah and his contemporary audience
?
When Jesus established His kingdom, through 70 ad until the present, were the people of Israel ever resting from their sorrow, and from their fear, and from the hard bondage wherein they were made to serve (Isa 14:13-14)
? There are several verses in Isa 14 which clearly show it is not a prophecy of Jesus. But read here. This actually, literally, happened to the king of Babylon, Belshazzar, Dan 5:30, and all his descendants. If this is about Rome, who does Assyria represent, when did YHWH tread them underfoot on His mountains, and when did Gods mountain move to Rome
?
Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
[size=-1]as Dan.2:44 prophesies that He would. "And in the days of these kings [the Roman Caesars, no doubt, for it was during their reign that He was born.] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
It uses the wicked king of Babylon to symbolically represent the lord over those powers in high places of which the apostle Paul said, Eph.6:10. "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.[/size]
This is the standard Christian Unorthodox Later Theology, knee jerk, copout, anything that contradicts your assumptions and presuppositions then it is must be allegorical, figurative, metaphorical, symbolical, etc. Anything and everything in the Bible can be blown off by saying its symbolical, etc.
Let me see if I have this straight, the cruel, wicked, pagan, king of Babylon represents the Lord.
And God,
isbrought down to the grave, and . . . how art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou [God] hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north?(Isa 14:11-13)
[size=-1]Seeing that commenting fully on Isa. 14 would not only take up space and my time but would also cause this thread to vear sharply off course, I will refrain from doing that at this time, although, admittedly I find it extremely hard not to give you a full course meal here instead of just a snack.[/size]
The only thing you can give me is universalist koolaid, bits and pieces of this and that, cut and paste e.g. secular encyclopedias, Encarta, and of course your gospel according to saint Josephus, etc.,
[size=-1]I can't tell for sure here, but it sounds like you think that God's people, becoming a proverb and a byword to the peoples of the kingdoms that God later allowed to subdue them because of their wickedness and disobedience to Him, was a compliment to them. Nothing could be further from the truth, for no nation of people in the history of civilization were ever held in such derision and scorn as were the Jews after God removed His protective hand from them and allowed them to be conquered. [/size]
Most people actually read a post before trying to reply to it. I clearly stated what I meant. Go back and read, you can do that cant you
?
[size=-1]To make a long story short, as the generations passed, with the Jews in captivity, their former reputation as a revered nation of wealth and importance were forgotten, and they became to those who had conquered them, for an example, as the legend of King Arthur and his knights of the round table is to us in this day and time. [/size]
IOW, just as I clearly said, the actual, literal, historical, events that impacted Israel were told as a
maschal. In the same way that the literal, actual events which impacted the king of Babylon were sung as a
maschal. But, of course, you want to have it both ways.
NET Isa 14:3 When the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and anxiety, and from the hard labor which you were made to perform, 14:4 you will taunt the king of Babylon with these words: Look how the oppressor has met his end!
LXXE Isa 14:3 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall give you rest from your sorrow and vexation, and from your hard servitude in which you served them.
4 And you shall take up this lamentation against the king of Babylon, How has the extortioner ceased, and the taskmaster ceased!
[size=-1]Claiming that Isaiah 14 is an allegory hardly amounts to "throwing it out". . . .
Luke 19: 37. ". . .If God could raise up children unto Abraham from stones, surely, oh surely, He could cause stones to cry out. But He did neither. [/size]
Surely, oh surely you can find somebody who can read English to explain my posts to you so you can comprehend them and not continually misrepresent what I say.
Keil-Delitszch Commentary on the O.T. - Isaiah 14:1-2
For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
But it is love to His own people which impels the God of Israel to suspend such a judgment of eternal destruction over Babylon. Ch. Isa 14:1-2. "For Jehovah will have mercy on Jacob, and will once more choose Israel, and will settle them in their own land: and the foreigner will associate with them, and they will cleave to the house of Jacob. And nations take them, and accompany them to their place; and the house of Israel takes them to itself in the land of Jehovah for servants and maid-servants: and they hold in captivity those who led them away captive; and become lords over their oppressors." We have here in nuce the comforting substance of ch. 46-66. Babylon falls that Israel may rise. This is effected by the compassion of God. He chooses Israel once more ( iterum , as in Job 14:7 for example), and therefore makes a new covenant with it. Then follows their return to Canaan, their own land, Jehovah's land (as in Hos 9:3).
Proselytes from among the heathen, who have acknowledged the God of the exiles, go along with them, as Ruth did with Naomi. Heathen accompany the exiles to their own place. And now their relative positions are reversed. Those who accompany Israel are now taken possession of by the latter ( hithnacheel , kleeronomei'n (NT:2816) heautoo' (NT:1438), like hithpatteeach , Isa 52:2, lu'esthai ; cf., p. 62, note, and Ewald, §124, b ), as servants and maid-servants; and they (the Israelites) become leaders into captivity of those who led them into captivity ( Lamed with the participle, as in Isa 11:9), and they will oppress ( râdâh b' , as in Ps 49:15) their oppressors. This retribution of life for like is to all appearance quite out of harmony with the New Testament love. But in reality it is no retribution of like for like. For, according to the prophet's meaning, to be ruled by the people of God is the true happiness of the nations, and to allow themselves to be so ruled is their true liberty.
Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
"Prepare a slaughter-house for his sons, because of the iniquity of their fathers! They shall not rise and conquer lands, and fill the face of the earth with cities." This exhortation is addressed to the Medes, if the prophet had any particular persons in his mind at all. After the nocturnal storming of Babylon by the Medes, the new Babylonian kingdom and royal house which had been established by Nabopolassar vanished entirely from history. The last shoot of the royal family of Nabopolassar was slain as a child of conspirators. The second Nebuchadnezzar deceived the people (as Darius says in the great inscription of Behistan), declaring, "I am Nabukudrac ara the son of Nabunita."
Isaiah 14:22-23 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Thus far the prophet has spoken in the name of God. But the prophecy closes with a word of God Himself, spoken through the prophet. - Vv. 22, 23. "And I will rise up against them, saith Jehovah of hosts, and root out in Babel name and remnant, sprout and shoot, saith Jehovah. And make it the possession of hedgehogs and marshes of water, and sweep it away with the bosom of destruction, saith Jehovah of hosts." uwshª'aar (OT:7605) sheem (OT:8034) and waaneked (OT:5220) niyn (OT:5209) are two pairs of alliterative proverbial words, and are used to signify "the whole, without exception" (compare the Arabic expression "Kiesel und Kies," "flint and pebble," in the sense of "altogether:" Nöldecke, Poesie der alten Araber , p. 162). Jehovah rises against the descendants of the king of Babylon, and exterminates Babylon utterly, root and branch. The destructive forces, which Babylon has hitherto been able to control by raising artificial defences, are now let loose; and the Euphrates, left without a dam, lays the whole region under water.
And OBTW my purpose here is not to convince you of anything. You will not believe though one rose from the dead. You have your mind made up and will continue exactly as you are doing. Ignore the truth and search for anything, written by anybody, as long as it trashes the Bible. My purpose here is to show others, whom you might mislead, how fallacious, and illogical your entire belief system is.