the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

[Flynmonkie]

I am still not certain what becomes of the Lake of Fire as it is said to torment Satan and the Beast for ever and ever ("And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.")

If I am missing something there, please enlighten!

Bleachers I agree with you on your thoughts here. I am still unsure of the seemingly contradiction of being burnt up to....tormented day and night forever and ever. It seems to stand alone or I am missing context elsewhere.

Pilgrim 33, have any ideas that you wish to share on this?

 

[bleechers]

I would take "eternity" to mean the same as these verses:

Exo 15:18 Jehovah shall reign for ever and ever.

1Ch 16:36 Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel forever and ever. And all the people said, Amen, and praised Jehovah.

1Ch 29:10 And David blessed Jehovah before all the congregation. And David said, Blessed are You, Jehovah, the God of Israel our father, forever and ever.

Neh 9:5 And the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless Jehovah your God forever and ever. And blessed be Your glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.

Psa 9:5 You have rebuked the heathen, You have destroyed the wicked, You have put out their name forever and ever.

Psa 10:16 Jehovah is King forever and ever; the nations have perished out of His land.

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures gave glory and honor and thanks to Him who sat on the throne, who lives forever and ever,

There are many other verses like that.

<><

Thanks, but I think you may have missed my point (and in doing so you have inadvertently helped it ).

The point was that in verse 15 it clearly reads "for ever and ever," but in verse 10 those words are conspicuously absent.

20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever

20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Also note that these are a specific group (those whose names are not in the Book of Life) which may refer to those mentioned in Revelation 13. Since the judgment of verse 10 is specific to the end of the millenium (in context of the whole Book); it is reasonable to consider that those in verse 15 are also from that specific period of judgment.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Bleechers Nix this question, I confused myself with your answer....oops sorry!

 

[gort]

Oh, why yes! I see how well you discern context....but let me give you a bit of a clue here to help you along in discerning the text taken from my original statement........

So much for your "analogy", eh?

Usually, a statement is invalid as an "analogy" when you use the word "YOU", with someones name in a quote, as you did mine. Along with the false accusations you could not back up, much less apologize for, and sluff it off to an "analogy".

It is of my opinion this accusation is a cop out because you don’t know for sure or your too scared to find the truth it just might be out of the box you have lived in, or better yet a means for you to feel superior over another Christian.

This was cute too.

Unless you have the answers to these questions definitively then you should probably be studying along with us.

I did provide answers from the bible, which were ignored by the OP. He seemed rather to call it:

Being a very hot evengelical issue for decades now you'd think it would be something everyone would be interested in; instead, all it does it bring out the worst in everyone displaying how every bible college and seminary in the world has taught everyone how to proof text the bible for the past one hundred years. it's not just very sad, it's shameful.

anyhoo......toodles



<><

 

[gort]

Thanks, but I think you may have missed my point (and in doing so you have inadvertently helped it ).

The point was that in verse 15 it clearly reads "for ever and ever," but in verse 10 those words are conspicuously absent.

20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever

20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Also note that these are a specific group (those whose names are not in the Book of Life) which may refer to those mentioned in Revelation 13. Since the judgment of verse 10 is specific to the end of the millenium (in context of the whole Book); it is reasonable to consider that those in verse 15 are also from that specific period of judgment.

Yes, 20:15 does say they too, were cast into the LOF.

Rev 14:9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

However, in these verses, we still have a group going into the LOF, as are those who are not found in the Book of Life. That book would be the one Jesus has given eternal life to. The other books are opened, and people are judged from their works....

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.


As all those are in the LOF, I must conclude that it is forever and ever/eternal.

I also posted that commentary from e-sword just for the purpose (as stated in that post) to show that, unless there is a conclusive demonstration shown in the bible (nearby in the context of these verses), I'm left with what the Bible has to say.

These are those in the second resurrection, those not in Christ Jesus. As we cannot be judged unto eternal life by our works, but only through Jesus, can we have eternal life. These verses also show the conclusion and finality of evil.

hope that helps

<><

 

[bleechers]

Rev 14:9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

However, in these verses, we still have a group going into the LOF, as are those who are not found in the Book of Life. That book would be the one Jesus has given eternal life to. The other books are opened, and people are judged from their works....

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.


As all those are in the LOF, I must conclude that it is forever and ever/eternal.

I also posted that commentary from e-sword just for the purpose (as stated in that post) to show that, unless there is a conclusive demonstration shown in the bible (nearby in the context of these verses), I'm left with what the Bible has to say.

These are those in the second resurrection, those not in Christ Jesus. As we cannot be judged unto eternal life by our works, but only through Jesus, can we have eternal life. These verses also show the conclusion and finality of evil.

hope that helps

Thank you. It does help.

But let me go back to an earlier assertion I made, that is, that the group seen in Revelation 20 is a very specific group. It is a specific group, connected with the great tribulation, that cast their lot with the Beast. That would separate them from other unbelivers of other dispensations.

Why I submit this... because Rev 14 is very specific ("If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.")

OK, I know, that doesn't address the Book of Life... but if we look at the description in Revelation 20 and compare that with what we've just seen in Revelation 14 along with another specific group in Revelation 13, I think we can surmise that this is a specific group:

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the Beast], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. "

This is a definite group that "dwell upon the earth" during that specific time. The punishment set forth for them in Revelation 14 is very specific to this group.

The context for the judgment in Revelation 20 is (for both the believers and the unbelievers) the period of the great tribulation to the end of the millenium. The believers are linked to that specific period in Rev 20 vs. 4 and in vs. 6. The unbelievers are linked in Rev 14 (as noted) and in Rev 20 vs. 6,8,10.

Afterthought: since Matthew 25 is also connected to this period, that may explain the specific judgment there as well.

 

[gort]

You raise some interesting questions, but I still have to look at the entire bible in context. And the simple answer to that is that the unbeliever/fornicators/rejectors of Christ Jesus are condemned. Sometimes it can be easy to get lost in the weeds...so to speak.

Inevitably, someone raises the question, "Well, what about the guy who lived on an island and never heard about the gospel?"

To which I would reply, "....And don't forget about the kid who's dad buried him underground all his life,either." IOW, nobody has the answer to that, but God. Many other religions claim they have the answer, but I don't think anybody knows.

So I take the simple route, the one that does'nt try to outguess God ( and neither do you). Nor am I any kind of dispensationalist. I just try to live day by day, and worry about tomorrow (remember I said "try") tomorrow.

But in it's simplest form, the LOF is end-all of all evil. God's will is done on earth, as it is in heaven.

I've read quite a few commentaries from credible teachers, but cannot say any of them are correct. I find it better to pray, and have hope that all come to repentence.

This is a definite group that "dwell upon the earth" during that specific time. The punishment set forth for them in Revelation 14 is very specific to this group.

Who do you think this group would be?

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[Flynmonkie]

You raise some interesting questions, but I still have to look at the entire bible in context. And the simple answer to that is that the unbeliever/fornicators/rejectors of Christ Jesus are condemned. Sometimes it can be easy to get lost in the weeds...so to speak.
<><

Now you understand the reason for some to study. It is not about false belief, it is about rightly dividing the word of God. I believe our role here is to have answers when we can. Every option within scripture should be ruled out. Trust me, I fought this idea tooth and nail until I realized that I had been refuted every time. Funny how we react like this when our minds are opened to new possibilities. Our own protective gear I guess. IMVHO when a verse in the bible seems to contradict, and we don't fully understand - time to investigate. And at times, sure it is probably something for God to know, and us not to worry about.

Thanks Bleechers!

 

[gort]

Now you understand the reason for some to study. It is not about false belief, it is about rightly dividing the word of God. I believe our role here is to have answers when we can. Every option within scripture should be ruled out. Trust me, I fought this idea tooth and nail until I realized that I had been refuted every time. Funny how we react like this when our minds are opened to new possibilities. Our own protective gear I guess. IMVHO when a verse in the bible seems to contradict, and we don't fully understand - time to investigate. And at times, sure it is probably something for God to know, and us not to worry about.

Thanks Bleechers!

I'm sorry, but you once again assume too much about what I believe and what I have said in these posts regarding this topic. The topic of eternal damnation has been rightly divided, taking all Scripture and what Jesus had to say regarding the subject.

Gods word tells us to lean not upon our own understanding. When He tells us so many times regarding the rejection of His offer of Grace and the consequences, it is clearly lined out in His word. I'm sorry, but there are really no "new possibilities" for me to ponders about when it comes to this particular theme.

As I'd mentioned, there are other religions that have taken another route, and changed the word of God to accomodate their beliefs.

The JW will say that those that don't belong to their organization will simply be anhilated.

The lds have different levels of kingdoms to accomodate their beliefs.

As I told bleechers, those that end up rejecting God face a "for ever and ever" torment.

Maybe we should post some more verses not in Revelation regarding this subject.........oh...wait a minute.......I forgot.....I'm on your ignore list

​

<><

 

[Flynmonkie]

I'm sorry, but you once again assume too much about what I believe and what I have said in these posts regarding this topic. The topic of eternal damnation has been rightly divided, taking all Scripture and what Jesus had to say regarding the subject.

Many other well-versed theologians disagree with you here. It might be sufficient an answer for you, however there is more to be gleaned. If you want to just win an argument of who’s right. Pick another thread that is not what is going on here. But if you care to truly study…by all means join the rest of us.

God’s word tells us to lean not upon our own understanding. When He tells us so many times regarding the rejection of His offer of Grace and the consequences, it is clearly lined out in His word. I'm sorry, but there are really no "new possibilities" for me to ponders about when it comes to this particular theme.

Here is a good read to get up to speed on what is being discussed here.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/012/1.30.html

And yes if you continue to be insulting and childish..... I will ignore you.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I'm sorry, but you once again assume too much about what I believe and what I have said in these posts regarding this topic. The topic of eternal damnation has been rightly divided, taking all Scripture and what Jesus had to say regarding the subject.

But what exactly is eternal damnation, is it eternal destruction, eternal torment, eternal punishment, if the later is it a punishment that is a one time thing resulting in destrcution or is it on going for enternity as in eternal torment. Or is it that the word eternal is miss translated and does not really mean eternal but rather a period of time that is unknown to us.

There are several passages in the bible that indicate there will be different levels of reward and punishment for different people, There are verses that say every man will be judged by his works.

Sorry man, I just do not see any clear reference to eternal torment for any man. The only clear reference is to the devil and even in that case I think the time span is miss translated and should be a eon instead of forever.

 

[gort]

And yes if you continue to be insulting and childish..... I will ignore you.

....Only if you promise the same.

<><

 

[Flynmonkie]

As I told bleechers, those that end up rejecting God face a "for ever and ever" torment.

<><

In the above quote are you saying that if someone doesn't believe in eternal torment they are rejecting God and will face for ever and ever torment?

 

[gort]

Soul Searcher quote:

Sorry man, I just do not see any clear reference to eternal torment for any man. The only clear reference is to the devil and even in that case I think the time span is miss translated and should be a eon instead of forever.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Ok. I've supplied one verse here, and to be taken in context of all the other references regarding the LOF.

So, if a person were to be cast into the LOF, whatever that might represent, could we say that they were in the same boat as the devil?

And are there any other verses we can show from the bible where there is a time limit as to the duration of said boat trip other than the term "for ever and ever?"



<><

 

[gort]

In the above quote are you saying that if someone doesn't believe in eternal torment they are rejecting God and will face for ever and ever torment?

No, it just states that those who reject God, will face the LOF.

<><

 

[gort]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/012/1.30.html

D. A. Carson speaks a hard but necessary truth:

Despite the sincerity of their motives, one wonders more than a little to what extent the growing popularity of various forms of annihilationism and conditional immortality are a reflection of this age of pluralism. It is getting harder and harder to be faithful to the "hard lines" of Scripture. And in this way, evangelicalism itself may contribute to the gagging of God by silencing the severity of his warnings and by minimizing the awfulness of the punishment that justly awaits those untouched by his redeeming grace.

What I bolded is a very important statement from that article.

Third, I fear that conditionalism might have a negative effect on evangelism and missions. If traditionalism is correct, then conditionalism seriously underestimates the pains of hell.

As is this.


<><

 

[Flynmonkie]

John and Mary at their wedding vow to stand by each other through thick and thin "for ever and ever".

Does "for ever and ever" mean throughout all eternity?

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

<><

Fine.
I have no objection there.
BUT it does NOT say for ever throughout all eternity and throughout the NEXT creation.

No, it just states that those who reject God, will face the LOF.<><

Isn’t refusing the word of God rejecting God?

 

[gort]

John and Mary at their wedding vow to stand by each other through thick and thin "for ever and ever".

Biblically, it would be "till death do you part"

Does "for ever and ever" mean throughout all eternity?

I would think so, unless there are verses that say otherwise.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

everlasting:

G166
&#945;&#953;&#787;&#969;&#769;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
aio&#772;nios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Isn’t refusing the word of God rejecting God?

I don't know what you mean by "refusing the word of God", but rejecting God is rejecting God.

g'nite

<><

 

[Flynmonkie]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/012/1.30.html

Quote:And in this way, evangelicalism itself may contribute to the gagging of God by silencing the severity of his warnings and by minimizing the awfulness of the punishment that justly awaits those untouched by his redeeming grace.

What I bolded is a very important statement from that article.


Quote:Third, I fear that conditionalism might have a negative effect on evangelism and missions. If traditionalism is correct, then conditionalism seriously underestimates the pains of hell.

As is this.

Believe it or not, I agree and am concerned. I fear these things too. Not that I believe in the fear factor of sharing the gospel. (This is not how I believe God shares it with us) I can see validity on both sides. I have grown accustomed to saying a total separation from God, because I am not sure of what this truly "consists" of except for that.

But I cannot consciously sit by when I see that scripture is contradictory, nor can I cop-out and settle with ignoring that fact. I must investigate.

For how do we share the gospel if we do not have a good understanding of it ourselves? I cannot consciously respond to someone asking why the Bible said the world and the works therin will be burned UP. Yet on the other hand they will be thrown into a lake of fire burning forever and ever in torment. So which is it? Not to mention all the other verses mentioned here. Yet saying a total separation from God seems to be sitting on a fence. And we all know who owns that.

I don’t believe Hell Fire needs to be preached for understanding of Gods love and mercy. However He is Just and that is equally important. I don't agree that it underestimates the pains of hell, perhaps it is telling us just that we need to be sharing the gospel in a different manner? Because this is not the point.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Ok. I've supplied one verse here, and to be taken in context of all the other references regarding the LOF.

So, if a person were to be cast into the LOF, whatever that might represent, could we say that they were in the same boat as the devil?

And are there any other verses we can show from the bible where there is a time limit as to the duration of said boat trip other than the term "for ever and ever?"



<><

You could say that, but that would not make it true. The bible does not say anything about these who are cast into the lake of fire beyond that they are cast into the lake, you infer based on the fate of the devil that it is the fate of all in the lake but that is a faulty inference.

Two things to remember, 1; It is talking about the dead 2; There is no passage anywhere in the bible that tells us who is or is not in the book of life.