The Fall

[Rightglory]

Giver,

You keep going back to man’s explanations of the scriptures I quoted. Man has had it wrong from the time of Constantine.

Scriptures being quoted and explaining their meaning are two very different things.

Think of this: You come to know Jesus on a very personable bases, you know he is God and if you do as he tells you he will give you heaven.

Knowing what to do and actually doing them are not the same either. Especially when we are commanded to the do them perfectly. But you raise a very important point however. quote" If you do as he tells you he will give you heaven". That is the whole point of His revelation to us. He gave us what He expects from us. But man is not capable of doing this perfectly. He sins, and that makes him not only imperfect but also alienates man from God. Sin and God do not mix. That is why repentance, forgiveness are necessary. We must seek forgiveness for the sin we do. If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive them.
The sad fact is that man often permits his flesh to rule, to permit sin to rule his life again, thus he is no longer in communion with Christ. Until and unless one repents, confesses those sins one will remain outside of Christ. No one is saved outside of Christ.

He gives you his Holy Spirit to give you the strength to over come your human weaknesses. You have come to trust, depend, rely, need, and to love Jesus.

the Holy Spirit works with belivers. But the Holy Spirit does not overrule man's desires or actions. He helps when we want and desire for Him to help.

Satan comes along and temps you to sin, and it sounds like fun. You understand that Jesus your friend and God will not be happy with you if Satan is the winner.

He wins a lot of temptations every day in the life of every Christian. If you think that you live even one day in perfection you are deluded. You are right God is not happy. Sin is sin no matter what name you might call it. It separates man from God every time.

The Bible warns us if someone is in the position, I just described, and lets Satan win there is no repentance.

Thanks be to God your theology is not that of Scripture. No man would be saved even with Christ atoning for the sins of the world.

Man hasn’t taught me about God. Jesus personally has taught me. You, most likely, are not going to be convinced by me.

Highly unlikely that Jesus personally taught you. History records that all of the Apostles have died. Unless you are claiming that you are 2000 years old?

You see my job isn’t to convince anyone. My job is to give a word. My advice is to forget what man has taught you about God. You have been given the Holy Spirit so except only his teachings.

I'm going to take your advice and not listen to any man, including you. Believers have been given the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit does not give you additional Truth. It is His job to lead you to the Truth once given. That Truth is 2000 years old, It has been believed and practiced as the Apostles gave it for the last 2000 years. you can be sure that it is the authenticated work of the Holy Spirit to have preserved the Christian faith within His Body.

 

[Van]

Romans 3 does not teach that all men do not seek God, but rather that all men are "under" sin. Calvinists seem unable to follow Paul's line of reasoning in this passage. God would not look down to see if any understand, if all men are unable to understand. That dog will not hunt. God would not see men who do understand, if all men were unable to understand. That dog will not hunt either. Romans 3 teaches all men are under sin, even those who do not understand they are under sin.

 

[Van]

Hi Rick, Romans 9:30-33 clearly teaches that if we pursue the righteousness of God by faith we will not be disappointed.

Faith does not need to be accompanied with works to be faith, but faith that would not produce works if given the opportunity is dead faith.

Yes, Matthew 23:13 says what it means, Matthew used those inspired words to convey His message. It says the false teachers do not allow those who are entering to go in.

Jesus lists the "woe" that will result from shutting off the kingdom of God from men first, in His list of woes, so the verse means what it says. The second woe results in making other men sons of Hell, just like themselves.

And then Rick, Jesus teaches in verses 16 to 22 not to cut and paste God's message, do not pick this verse, the alter, but not that verse, the offering, but stick to the whole message. Amazingly on point considering your effort.

 

[beloved57]

Romans 3 does not teach that all men do not seek God

Yes it does..

rom 3:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Moses said: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. Dt.6:4,5

Question: If God planted the words in the “corrupt” hearts of His people, how is it that God says He will give them a new heart in Isa - Jer? Was God caught off guard; presumptuous somehow to think the heart they possessed was good enough? What really was the case that doesn’t speak of anything hereditary?

Hint: Would you suppose if Adam had a new heart it would have prevented him from transgressing? Given the magnitude/scope of what was coming, don't you suppose God would have done so if He thought it would have affected the outcome. I would rather believe he had the best God had to give and there was no heart more perfect a human could possess.

I think that the passage you quoted is a command . . . not a promise. So the ideal is set . . . but the ideal will NEVER be accomplished. That is why Paul says that the Law was a school master that pointed to Christ.

God set up an unattainable Law ON PURPOSE.

Adam's heart was good . . . but not PERFECTED (notice I place the "ED" . . .). So as good as Adam's heart was . . . it wasn't the BEST. After it has been PERFECTED by God in Christ through the Spirit . . . now Adam's heart is perfect.

Prior to the crucible of the Fall . . . Adam's heart is pure . . . but *immature* . . . niavete was prevelant.

 

[beloved57]

Adam's heart was good

Adams heart was sinful..thats why it brought forth sins fruit

matt 7:

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Ormly]

I think that the passage you quoted is a command . . . not a promise. So the ideal is set . . . but the ideal will NEVER be accomplished. That is why Paul says that the Law was a school master that pointed to Christ.

God set up an unattainable Law ON PURPOSE.

Because of man's separation from Him, the Law was the closest tangable thing to Himself God could give man that man's righteousness be personally rewarded. Quitea blood mess but that is what Adam strapped us with. There was no more until Jesus . . and He explained what it all respresented.

 

[Van]

Romans 3 does not teach that all men at all times cannot seek God. It teaches that all men are under sin. The verse quoted by Paul, is from Psalm 14 which says none of those who say God does not exist understand. Calvinism takes this limited condition and attempts to apply it univerally, by quoting the snipet out of context. Like taking a sentence, "She thought He love her", and quoting it as "He loved her." Not the idea at all. Romans 3 teaches that some men are able to seek God, the exact opposite of the false teaching of Calvinism. See Romans 3:19-26.

Romans 3 does not teach that all men do not seek God, but rather that all men are "under" sin. Calvinists seem unable to follow Paul's line of reasoning in this passage. God would not look down to see if any understand, if all men are unable to understand. That dog will not hunt. God would not see men who do understand, if all men were unable to understand. That dog will not hunt either. Romans 3 teaches all men are under sin, even those who do not understand they are under sin.

 

[Ormly]

Romans 3 does not teach that all men at all times cannot seek God. It teaches that all men are under sin. The verse quoted by Paul, is from Psalm 14 which says none of those who say God does not exist understand. Calvinism takes this limited condition and attempts to apply it univerally, by quoting the snipet out of context. Like taking a sentence, "She thought He love her", and quoting it as "He loved her." Not the idea at all. Romans 3 teaches that some men are able to seek God, the exact opposite of the false teaching of Calvinism. See Romans 3:19-26.

Romans 3 does not teach that all men do not seek God, but rather that all men are "under" sin. Calvinists seem unable to follow Paul's line of reasoning in this passage. God would not look down to see if any understand, if all men are unable to understand. That dog will not hunt. God would not see men who do understand, if all men were unable to understand. That dog will not hunt either. Romans 3 teaches all men are under sin, even those who do not understand they are under sin.

Contextually it reads all are under the 'penalty of sin'.

Now separate the penalty from the act, that not everyone commits, and you wil begin to be able to make the distinction that all suffer because of what one man did.

What is the suffering? Name it if not simply separation from God's presence in the natural we all would have had if Adam had not transgressed. We have been relegated to an existence where 'Self' is groomed to rule; where the power to fight against 'Self' and the enemie's continued solicitations to it, remains without.

Because of Jesus; our new birth in Him, we can and must go through this natural habitation IN God but in the Spiritual, until that Day when all things will be made new. . . in the Natural.

 

[Van]

I do not object to the view that being under sin means being under the penality of sin as well. But as soon as person knows what is right and does it not, they sin of their own volition.

So the suffering that arises from the sins of others does not present the whole picture, for we also bring about our own suffering by sinning, and we cause others to suffer because of our sins.

But the premise that we are not corrupted from within is false, for Adam's and Eve's eyes were opened, and by the sin of the one, the many were made sinners.

Romans 3 teaches we are all under sin, which includes the penalty of sin. Both the Jews who believe in God, and the Gentiles who say there is no God, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[Jipsah]

rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Yeah, that's what it says, but what it really means is ________ (insert Free Willy doctrine here).

 

[Jipsah]

Romans 3 teaches that some men are able to seek God, the exact opposite of the false teaching of Calvinism.

Funny, what the Scripture actually says ("There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." ) is precisely what you're telling us is false teaching. Can't trust that Bible without a Free Willy on hand to tell us what it "really means", can we?

Calvinists seem unable to follow Paul's line of reasoning in this passage.

Being crippled, as we are, by the idea that he meant what he said.

 

[Rick Otto]

Hi Rick, Romans 9:30-33 clearly teaches that if we pursue the righteousness of God by faith we will not be disappointed. No argument with that much, bro.
Faith does not need to be accompanied with works to be faith, but faith that would not produce works if given the opportunity is dead faith. Amen, I knew we agreed on some major points.

Yes, Matthew 23:13 says what it means, Matthew used those inspired words to convey His message. It says the false teachers do not allow those who are entering to go in. I agree that it says that, but if it had said they enticed people out of the kingdom, I would agree with your point about what it means.

Jesus lists the "woe" that will result from shutting off the kingdom of God from men first, in His list of woes, so the verse means what it says. The second woe results in making other men sons of Hell, just like themselves. I read where sheep get lost, but never where sheep morph into goats, so to speak. Wheat never turns into a tare, if ya get my drift.
And then Rick, Jesus teaches in verses 16 to 22 not to cut and paste God's message, do not pick this verse, the alter, but not that verse, the offering, but stick to the whole message. Amazingly on point considering your effort.

Realy?
16: Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17: Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18: And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19: Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20: Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21: And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22: And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Looks to me like he's saying not to place our faith (swear by)in works (the gold) we sacrifice on the altar, in the temple, rather we should place that faith in him that dwelleth therein.

 

[Ormly]

I do not object to the view that being under sin means being under the penality of sin as well. .

That's all it means. If you will stop reading into it more than what's there you see the rest of your error. . . . and that of Calvin's, more clearly.

 

[Ormly]

Those that believe the mis-quoted/misrepresented passage that 'none are righteous, no not one', cannot explain those that were in the OT without concocting some nonesense about God giving 'special' grace, not meant for all. Where they get this weirdness of thought is from those writers who wished to protect other nonsense of thought they espoused. Its gotta be a pride issue with them.

 

[beloved57]

Those that believe the mis-quoted/misrepresented passage that 'none are righteous, no not one', cannot explain those that were in the OT without concocting some nonesense about God giving 'special' grace, not meant for all. Where they get this weirdness of thought is from those writers who wished to protect other nonsense of thought they espoused. Its gotta be a pride issue with them.

you deal with the word of God:

rom 3:

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Stop your crying and deal with the truth..

ps 14 too buddy

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [ God ormly says you must have been blind and didnt see the ot saints lol..]

bow God to ormly..ormly knows more than God

 

[Ormly]

If you are able, and I don't believe you are, explain away the righteous in the OT.

 

[beloved57]

If you are able, and I don't believe you are, explain away the righteous in the OT.

The word speaks for it self..

 

[cygnusx1]

If you are able, and I don't believe you are, explain away the righteous in the OT.

there are none!

 

[Jipsah]

Those that believe the mis-quoted/misrepresented passage that 'none are righteous, no not one',

I.E., those of us who accept it as written...

cannot explain those that were in the OT without concocting some nonesense about God giving 'special' grace, not meant for all.

OK, so your idea of what that Scripture really means is "there are some righteous, yeah, some". Just another case of that Paul fella not benig able to properly get his point across.

Reading the Bible is kinda like climbing Everest, isn't it? To make it to the top of Everest, you're probably gonna have the help of some Sherpas to get you up there. To understand what the Bible really means (as opposed to what it says) you have to have a Free Willy on hand.

Yeah, that has to be it.