The Fall

[Van]

Ormly, you cannot assert the absurdity that Adam's eyes were opened before his eyes were opened. He defiled himself by sinning. He knowingly chose to violate his understanding of God's word. To equate the ability to choose to sin with being corrupted by sin is a dog that will not hunt.

 

[Ormly]

Ormly, you cannot assert the absurdity that Adam's eyes were opened before his eyes were opened. He defiled himself by sinning. He knowingly chose to violate his understanding of God's word. To equate the ability to choose to sin with being corrupted by sin is a dog that will not hunt.

That is the point, isn't it. Adam transgressed from a state of innocence and then you say he became corrupt. Please re-read my paper for the rest of my reply..

 

[Ormly]

“For the creation was subjected to *futility—not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it . . . .” Rom.8:20. *uselessness

Please note that the scripture DOES NOT say the creature, i.e., man, was made subject to corruption!

We are in a “separated from God”, state of existence by virtue of a “mark” placed upon us that cannot stand the light of the presence of God, on penalty of death. This “mark” is not unlike the mark of Cain inasmuch as what Adam did to all of mankind. This “mark” must be removed. As with Cain, this “mark” is something from outside of man, placed upon him, thus sealing man in bondage to the purpose of the one who subjected him. This wicked one, to satisfy his intent, does so by making his appeal to man by solicitations to the "self" of man; his own created nature, though not without hope, made helpless to the possibility of intimacy with God; intimacy that would have conquered his foe. His nature which was always independent of God and that God desired to inhabit; make His own, is now, of itself, without strength. “As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine. . . .” Jn.15:4.

Being separated from God doesn't mean man, of himself, is corrupted. Corruption is not the issue but rather bondage to evil, a world apart from God and he can not get back to “Father’s House” Enter Jesus who shows us the “Way” back.

However, being in this state of separation, as it affects God's blessings upon him, is as man deems it. God is always wanting to bless man even in the evil he resides, His compassion is unending, that man might honor Him. Either side of the cross, this desire of God hasn’t changed but remains predicated upon man’s love to Him.

 

[Van]

So now, after throughing dust into the air, you finally agree with my position. Fine

Romans 8:20 does indeed refer to the fallen condition of mankind, for mankind is both separated from God, and corrupted from within. While still in the garden [not yet in a separated state] Adam and Eve's "eyes" were opened, which refers to their corruption as a consequence of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Scripture says by the sin of the one [Adam] the many were made sinners. To be made a sinner is to be corrupted, and to be a sinner is to be in a sinful unholy state, separated from God. In our fallen, unregenerate state, our "old man" is corrupt through deceitful desires. To the defiled [corrupted] nothing is pure, they are destestable, disobedient, unfit for any good works.

 

[Ormly]

So now, after throughing dust into the air, you finally agree with my position. Fine

??? How can I say you are wacked without saying you are wacked? . . . in a loving way, that is?

 

[Ormly]

So now, after throughing dust into the air, you finally agree with my position. Fine

Romans 8:20 does indeed refer to the fallen condition of mankind, for mankind is both separated from God, and corrupted from within.

Don't spout me off commentary... give scripture for that nonsense!

 

[Ormly]

While still in the garden [not yet in a separated state] Adam and Eve's "eyes" were opened

The glory was gone. The glory that blinded their eyes to their own nakedness, it was gone because they transgressed.

which refers to their corruption as a consequence of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You have no scripture for that. The corruption is just not in there.

Scripture says by the sin of the one [Adam] the many were made sinners. To be made a sinner is to be corrupted, and to be a sinner is to be in a sinful unholy state, separated from God.

Yep. Sinners by heredity but not by nature. Can you comprehend that? Cain sinned, Abel didn't. How come Abel didn't if, as you say they were corrupt? God has no regard for anything corrupt. God has no regard for anything corrupt. He has regard for Abel, how come?

In our fallen, unregenerate state, our "old man" is corrupt through deceitful desires.

Speak for yourself. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, shall I go on? In our fallen state we are only separated from God as a consquence of Adam's transgression. That doesn't make us corrupt. We make ourselves corrupt by the "Selfish" choices we make. By heredity we have been given a mark that disqualifies us from going on in God to become what He purposed for us when He created man. It must be removed and no man on earth could do it. Enter Jesus, who could. . . and did.

To the defiled [corrupted] nothing is pure, they are destestable, disobedient, unfit for any good works.

Again:

Speak for yourself. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, shall I go on?

 

[beloved57]

It was Gods purpose that adam fall..in fact contrarie to what people believe, adam was created a sinner , but did not have the knowledge of it yet..

 

[Ormly]

It was Gods purpose that adam fall..in fact contrarie to what people believe, adam was created a sinner , but did not have the knowledge of it yet..

So you would have it that God created Adam to fail.

In light of the fact that God Love, Holy, Just and all Righteous, do you realize how stupid that assessment is?

 

[beloved57]

So you would have it that God created Adam to fail.

Duh thats what I just posted..

In light of the fact that God Love, Holy, Just and all Righteous, do you realize how stupid that assessment is?

Its stupid to you because you have no spiritual understanding...

God had already planned to reveal His Love , grace , and mercy through christ..hence the reason for the fall..

 

[Ormly]

Duh thats what I just posted..



Its stupid to you because you have no spiritual understanding...

God had already planned to reveal His Love , grace , and mercy through christ..hence the reason for the fall..

This isn't for you but for anyone else with understanding:

God had planned to reveal Christ; His Love , grace , and mercy through Adam..hence the reason for the Jesus..

 

[beloved57]

This isn't for you but for anyone else with understanding:

God had planned to reveal Christ; His Love , grace , and mercy through Adam..hence the reason for the Jesus..

You got it backwards but thats not new..lol

 

[Ormly]

You got it backwards but thats not new..lol

No,

you have it backwards.

 

[Van]

Ormly

??? How can I say you are wacked without saying you are wacked? . . . in a loving way, that is?

Disparaging the person demonstrates the realization of the actuality that one's position is untendable.

Don't spout me off commentary... give scripture for that nonsense!

I have provided the scripture, so spouting that I have not seem to be something that should be avoided.

The glory was gone. The glory that blinded their eyes to their own nakedness, it was gone because they transgressed.

A rose by any other name would smell as defiled.

You have no scripture for that. The corruption is just not in there

And again, I say why not address the scripture I provided, "for by the sin of the one, the many were made sinners" rather than post fiction. The "many" includes everyone but Jesus, so it includes Adam. When Adam's eyes were opened, he became deceitful, corrupted, a person who would blame others and hide his own nature.

Yep. Sinners by heredity but not by nature. Can you comprehend that? Cain sinned, Abel didn't. How come Abel didn't if, as you say they were corrupt? God has no regard for anything corrupt. God has no regard for anything corrupt. He has regard for Abel, how come?

I provided the scripture, Genesis 3:7 which demonstrates Eve was corrupted spiritually as the result of Adam's sin, for he was not deceived. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says or suggests in the slightest, our corruption is passed biologically. The idea is a fiction invented by men. I can comprehend that!

Speak for yourself. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, shall I go on? In our fallen state we are only separated from God as a consquence of Adam's transgression. That doesn't make us corrupt. We make ourselves corrupt by the "Selfish" choices we make. By heredity we have been given a mark that disqualifies us from going on in God to become what He purposed for us when He created man. It must be removed and no man on earth could do it. Enter Jesus, who could. . . and did.

For all have sinned includes Abel, and the rest on your list, everybody but Jesus. The mark of Cain did not make Cain a sinner, he had already murdered his brother. Ormly, you view is unbiblical and untendable.

 

[Van]

Beloved 57, the opening post addressed the Fall, but did not address the issue of whether (1) God caused by deterministic control, Adam to sin; or (2) God arranged for Adam to sin, but allowed Adam to independently choose to sin. The correct answer is that God arranged for Adam to sin, because the Fall was part of God's plan from before creation. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Word was chosen to be God's lamb before creation, and you do not choose a Redeemer, unless you plan to have Him redeem somebody that needs to be redeemed by virture of their fallen state "in Adam."

 

[heymikey80]

Beloved 57, the opening post addressed the Fall, but did not address the issue of whether (1) God caused by deterministic control, Adam to sin; or (2) God arranged for Adam to sin, but allowed Adam to independently choose to sin. The correct answer is that God arranged for Adam to sin, because the Fall was part of God's plan from before creation. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Word was chosen to be God's lamb before creation, and you do not choose a Redeemer, unless you plan to have Him redeem somebody that needs to be redeemed by virture of their fallen state "in Adam."

So the Fall is part of God's plan, and God's plan is good. God "arranged" the Fall -- was God a matchmaker for our sinfulness? This is actually a very current issue within ethics. If God set the conditions for intentionally bringing Adam to sin, He's as responsible as causing Adam to sin. They're effectively the same thing: God intends sin, and so He brings it about.

 

[heymikey80]

This issue is examined in depth in a book of about a hundred pages, "The Imputation of Adam's Sin" by John Murray.

The Fall affected Creation, so it has a genetic component, but that's not all there is to it.

Sinfulness or unrighteousness is also our standing before God, which was lost by Adam. This standing is inherited like many possessions are inherited. The children of disowned progeny are also disowned.

The Redemption is thus also twofold. Right now we have a redemption of our standing before God. But the complete redemption of our creation still awaits future glory.

 

[Van]

So the Fall is part of God's plan, and God's plan is good. God "arranged" the Fall -- was God a matchmaker for our sinfulness? This is actually a very current issue within ethics. If God set the conditions for intentionally bringing Adam to sin, He's as responsible as causing Adam to sin. They're effectively the same thing: God intends sin, and so He brings it about.

Yes God either causes (deterministic control) or allows (by the independent action of men) all things. God arranged for Adam to sin, but by Adam's independent choice.

Folks, the Word was chosen before creation to be God's lamb, therefore the Fall was part of God's plan from before creation, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on your Redeemer redeeming those who need redeeming.

You do not need 100 pages to understand it, just read the passages that tell of God placing the tree of the klnowledge of good and evil in the garden, and telling Adam not to eat, then allowing Satan, the serpant of old, to deceive Eve.

But why you ask would God arrange for the Fall? I believe the idea is the same as when God reduced the size of the army, so the victory would bring more glory to God. When we repent in our fallen state, we bring more glory to God.

God bless

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

“For the creation was subjected to *futility—not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it . . . .” Rom.8:20. *uselessness

Please note that the scripture DOES NOT say the creature, i.e., man, was made subject to corruption!

We are in a “separated from God”, state of existence by virtue of a “mark” placed upon us that cannot stand the light of the presence of God, on penalty of death. This “mark” is not unlike the mark of Cain inasmuch as what Adam did to all of mankind. This “mark” must be removed. As with Cain, this “mark” is something from outside of man, placed upon him, thus sealing man in bondage to the purpose of the one who subjected him. This wicked one, to satisfy his intent, does so by making his appeal to man by solicitations to the "self" of man; his own created nature, though not without hope, made helpless to the possibility of intimacy with God; intimacy that would have conquered his foe. His nature which was always independent of God and that God desired to inhabit; make His own, is now, of itself, without strength. “As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine. . . .” Jn.15:4.

Being separated from God doesn't mean man, of himself, is corrupted. Corruption is not the issue but rather bondage to evil, a world apart from God and he can not get back to “Father’s House” Enter Jesus who shows us the “Way” back.

However, being in this state of separation, as it affects God's blessings upon him, is as man deems it. God is always wanting to bless man even in the evil he resides, His compassion is unending, that man might honor Him. Either side of the cross, this desire of God hasn’t changed but remains predicated upon man’s love to Him.

Hey Orm.

My thoughts are that man is corrupt . . . inside and out. One of the Hebrew words for sin was used for the sight of a twisted tree . . . it was once beautiful but now has been warped and marred.

Also sin is consistently referred to as an issue of the heart . . . it is also in issue of bondage . . . but I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive.

Interestingly, last night I was reading in a book that was speaking of Cain . . . and his sin enveloped him before he got the mark.

Another interesting thing is that Jesus' was NOT born of man . . . but of woman ONLY. His *male* genome was supplied not by a fallen man . . . but by the Spirit. According to what I have heard . . . the blood line is passed through the father . . . SO Jesus blood was never tainted by Adam's . . . so He is pure. This would mean that ALL born of men are NOT pure . . . this seems interal to me.

Plus you have all the OT prophecies (Jer. and Ezek.) about NEW hearts . . . cause the old one's are bad.

RC Sproul said this:

We are not sinners because we sin . . . we sin because we are sinners.

I do think we are moraly bankrupt.

We can IM if you want.

Thanks for the invite.

MTK

 

[Ormly]

Ormly

Quote:
??? How can I say you are wacked without saying you are wacked? . . . in a loving way, that is?

Disparaging the person demonstrates the realization of the actuality that one's position is untendable.

I asked in a loving way....

Quote:
Don't spout me off commentary... give scripture for that nonsense!

I have provided the scripture, so spouting that I have not seem to be something that should be avoided.

You provided none exegetically correct, that is.

Quote:
The glory was gone. The glory that blinded their eyes to their own nakedness, it was gone because they transgressed.

A rose by any other name would smell as defiled.

I can paint a red rose blue, but I haven't corrupted the rose. The rose will still look as a rose. It just won't perform as intended. So defilement is not the issue, corruption is. We are defiled which necessitates our being separated from God. The "painted blue rose" will never be placed in with red ones. Someone [outside the rose] would first have to remove the blue paint and then teach the regenerated red rose how to function as a red one. I think that is an accurate analogy of what happened to man.

The word “corruption” infers more than given in the scriptures and more than what I did to the red rose when I painted it. I believe that is what happened when Adam transgressed. Was Enoch corrupted? Abel? Noah? Did they not choose God’s way? However, were they as God intended? No, they could no longer perform with their life as God originally purposed for them. They were llimited by being separated from God. They [we] all have suffered because of being defiled.

Quote:
You have no scripture for that. The corruption is just not in there

And again, I say why not address the scripture I provided, "for by the sin of the one, the many were made sinners" rather than post fiction. The "many" includes everyone but Jesus, so it includes Adam. When Adam's eyes were opened, he became deceitful, corrupted, a person who would blame others and hide his own nature

Where did you read that Adam became deceitful? Sin indeed came into the picture. No question about. But Adam's Sin only brought separation from Go. In the sense we are from him it is consequential that we all have sinned because the separation was passed down through Adam to us all. The Sin, the penalty OF IT, = separation from God. That is why we can read of the many righteous in the OT and not have any questions or have to believe God gave them "Special Grace/Faith" for them to believe. Man’s ability to choose was never revoked by God after the fall. Lets agree on that much.

Quote:
Yep. Sinners by heredity but not by nature. Can you comprehend that? Cain sinned, Abel didn't. How come Abel didn't if, as you say they were corrupt? God has no regard for anything corrupt. God has no regard for anything corrupt. He has regard for Abel, how come?

I provided the scripture, Genesis 3:7 which demonstrates Eve was corrupted spiritually as the result of Adam's sin, for he was not deceived. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says or suggests in the slightest, our corruption is passed biologically. The idea is a fiction invented by men. I can comprehend that!

Yes I know. I used to believe that way also until I came to grips with why I didn't have success in overcoming my disposition. My salvation was not the issue with me. My becoming a son brought into glory was and still is.

You have got the after and before all mixed up. Eve wasn’t defiled before she sinned. She was innocent. Innocence is vulerable.
Quote:
Speak for yourself. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, shall I go on? In our fallen state we are only separated from God as a consquence of Adam's transgression. That doesn't make us corrupt. We make ourselves corrupt by the "Selfish" choices we make. By heredity we have been given a mark that disqualifies us from going on in God to become what He purposed for us when He created man. It must be removed and no man on earth could do it. Enter Jesus, who could. . . and did.

For all have sinned includes Abel, and the rest on your list, everybody but Jesus. The mark of Cain did not make Cain a sinner, he had already murdered his brother. Ormly, you view is unbiblical and untendable

All indeed are in a sinful state of being as inhabiting an evil kingdom however, in this kingdom people [us] are nevertheless without excuse for not doing good, and have the choice not to do so. Because in that kingdom still lies man's capability to choose God for a clean conscience, after all how can “You who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children”. Abel, Enoch, Noah, et al were all in evil but they chose God. You can’t argue against and not look silly.