The Fall

[Ormly]

Also sin is consistently referred to as an issue of the heart . . . it is also in issue of bondage . . . but I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive.

Moses said: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. Dt.6:4,5

Question: If God planted the words in the “corrupt” hearts of His people, how is it that God says He will give them a new heart in Isa - Jer? Was God caught off guard; presumptuous somehow to think the heart they possessed was good enough? What really was the case that doesn’t speak of anything hereditary?

Hint: Would you suppose if Adam had a new heart it would have prevented him from transgressing? Given the magnitude/scope of what was coming, don't you suppose God would have done so if He thought it would have affected the outcome. I would rather believe he had the best God had to give and there was no heart more perfect a human could possess.

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, as a consequence of the Fall, all mankind- the many were made sinners. We are conceived in iniquity, and therefore before we have done anything good or bad, we are corrupted.

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated by the Fall account in Genesis, for God put an angel to preclude Adam, if he had chosen to try and reach out and eat from the tree of life. Therefore Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated as false doctrine.

 

[Van]

Moses said: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. Dt.6:4,5

Question: If God planted the words in the “corrupt” hearts of His people, how is it that God says He will give them a new heart in Isa - Jer? Was God caught off guard; presumptuous somehow to think the heart they possessed was good enough? What really was the case that doesn’t speak of anything hereditary?

Hint: Would you suppose if Adam had a new heart it would have prevented him from transgressing? Given the magnitude/scope of what was coming, don't you suppose God would have done so if He thought it would have affected the outcome. I would rather believe he had the best God had to give and there was no heart more perfect a human could possess.

Did God actually say those words would be planted in their hearts? Nope. He said the commands would be on their hearts, meaning they would be mindful of them. Note these commands must to taught to others, so no implanting like is promised by the New Covenant is in view in this text.

Bottom line, the new heart as a result of being born again under the New Covenant is superior to the unregenerate heart.

 

[Rick Otto]

Returning to topic, as a consequence of the Fall, all mankind- the many were made sinners. We are conceived in iniquity, and therefore before we have done anything good or bad, we are corrupted.

Corrupted? If by that you mean spiritualy dead, I agree.
Spiritual death=total spiritual inability which results in total depravity.

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated by the Fall account in Genesis, for God put an angel to preclude Adam, if he had chosen to try and reach out and eat from the tree of life. Therefore Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated as false doctrine.

Physical Immortality is not a spiritual object.
The angel merely enforced the curse.
The doctrine stands.

 

[Ormly]

If man was made totally depraved one will have difficult time trying to explain . . . . Abel. Go for it.

 

[beloved57]

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated by the Fall account in Genesis, for God put an angel to preclude Adam, if he had chosen to try and reach out and eat from the tree of life. Therefore Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated as false doctrine.

That does not prove man has a freewill or has no spiritual inability, it actually proves his wickedness to do evil..

Duh just because a man make a physical movement as to stretch forth his arm to get something, how does that disprove spiritual inability ? lol, lol, lol,..

 

[Ormly]

That does not prove man has a freewill or has no spiritual inability, it actually proves his wickedness to do evil..

Therefore, Adam was wicked before he transgressed.
Have you met NBF?

 

[Van]

Hi Rick, logically your view is consistent with being corrupted by the fall, which is my view, but to assert the corruption must be the unbiblical invention of total spiritual inability does not follow. All these efforts to nullify the obvious, that fallen man can seek the tree of life as demonstrated by the Fall account in Genesis 3 are untendable.

 

[Rick Otto]

Hi Rick, logically your view is consistent with being corrupted by the fall, which is my view, but to assert the corruption must be the unbiblical invention of total spiritual inability does not follow. All these efforts to nullify the obvious, that fallen man can seek the tree of life as demonstrated by the Fall account in Genesis 3 are untendable.

The only possible blank I'm fillin' in, is the spiritual ability of a dead spirit (none). I don't accept the desire for immortality as a spiritual desire, can you explain how it is and how a dead-in-spirit person could have a spiritual desire or knowlege?

 

[Van]

Hi Rick, sure. God is spirit. Therefore to seek God is to seek a spiritual thing. Matthew 23:13 tells us of men who are entering heaven. That demonstrates knowledge of spiritual things including a desire to establish a right relationship with God. Since they turned aside, they were not under the supposed influence of Irresistible Grace, so they had not been "regenerated" yet in this spiriturally dead state, separated from God, they were seeking the kingdom of heaven. And of course, the "tree of life" is located in the paradise of God.

 

[beloved57]

van says

" yet in this spiriturally dead state, separated from God, they were seeking the kingdom of heaven.

That teaching of yours contradicts rom 3:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

so lets try rightly dividing the word of truth for a change..

 

[beloved57]

ormly ask

Therefore, Adam was wicked before he transgressed.

Yes of course..

 

[Ormly]

amazing!! I had you all wrong. Yer worse off than I thought.

 

[beloved57]

amazing!! I had you all wrong. Yer worse off than I thought.

adams sin proved he was evil..he never loved God with all his mind and strength and heart..

Thats a sin..did you know that ?

 

[Rick Otto]

Hi Rick, sure. God is spirit. Therefore to seek God is to seek a spiritual thing. Matthew 23:13 tells us of men who are entering heaven. That demonstrates knowledge of spiritual things including a desire to establish a right relationship with God. Since they turned aside, they were not under the supposed influence of Irresistible Grace, so they had not been "regenerated" yet in this spiriturally dead state, separated from God, they were seeking the kingdom of heaven. And of course, the "tree of life" is located in the paradise of God.

What if I am seeking a fantasy of God & not the reality?
What if my motive is more about wealth & prosperity than salvation & charity?
Could self-deception & ignorance play a part in unintended idolatry, or is idolatry a spiritual, "if only misguided" pursuit?
My contention is that the seeking could be an expression of religious affection, not a love of God per se. A lot of pew warmers don't give a wit about politics OR religion, but are content to feel safe belonging to a "probably more right than wrong church". Their seeking is more about religious posture & the security of social acceptance rather than real spiritual progress.

 

[Van]

Hi Beloved57, Romans 3 teaches that men can seek God. What Paul says is everybody is "under" sin. We are all in a corrupted, unholy sinful state. And then Paul proves this truth using Old Testament Scripture. He quotes Psalm 14 which says than none of those who are atheists, the foolish wicked who say there is no God, seeks God. Thus even the Gentiles who do not believe in the God of the bible are "under" sin.

But the Calvinists take this passage and say it means more than that, it means everyone universally does not seek God. But this is simply unbiblical, even in the very passage, Psalm 14, God looks down to see if any understand. Thus if the Fall had resulted in no one being able to understand, God would not have looked down. And what is even more devestating to the false argument, is that God sees those who understand, those who seek God's refuge as clearly stated in verse 5.

Beloved57, my position is consistent with Romans 3, while the Calvinist position misconstrues Paul's line of reasoning.

 

[Ormly]

Hi Beloved57, Romans 3 teaches that men can seek God. What Paul says is everybody is "under" sin. We are all in a corrupted, unholy sinful state. And then Paul proves this truth using Old Testament Scripture. He quotes Psalm 14 which says than none of those who are atheists, the foolish wicked who say there is no God, seeks God. Thus even the Gentiles who do not believe in the God of the bible are "under" sin.

But the Calvinists take this passage and say it means more than that, it means everyone universally does not seek God. But this is simply unbiblical, even in the very passage, Psalm 14, God looks down to see if any understand. Thus if the Fall had resulted in no one being able to understand, God would not have looked down. And what is even more devestating to the false argument, is that God sees those who understand, those who seek God's refuge as clearly stated in verse 5.

Beloved57, my position is consistent with Romans 3, while the Calvinist position misconstrues Paul's line of reasoning.

Obviously we aren't corrupted more than just being defiled.

 

[Van]

Hi Rick, I have been all through that, why bring up the same old refuted arguments? Romans 9:30-33 clearly says men can seek the righteousness of God in misdirected ways. That still supports the biblical truth that fallen men have limited spiritual ability, they can understand God's attributes, and seek His righteousness.

God, who knows our hearts will not credit our "faith" in Christ if it is motivated by wickedness.

And to say that all those who seek God are motivated by wickedness that God will reject is to ignore Matthew 23:13. These people were entering heaven, so presumably their motives were pure. To say otherwise simply nullifies the whole point of the passage, of false teachers preventing people of entering heaven by alledging they were not actually entering heaven and therefore they were not blocked. That dog will not hunt.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Van;Hi Rick, I have been all through that, why bring up the same old refuted arguments?

Don't feel obligated.

Romans 9:30-33 clearly says men can seek the righteousness of God in misdirected ways.

I think not, Van my friend.
For me, it further expresses the dominance of God's election, god's will, over man's inthe matter of salvation.

God, who knows our hearts will not credit our "faith" in Christ if it is motivated by wickedness.

Agreed. it is no more a true faith than one without works.

And to say that all those who seek God are motivated by wickedness that God will reject is to ignore Matthew 23:13.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that either... I don't think I did.

These people were entering heaven, so presumably their motives were pure.

I don't think so. I believe that wasn't meant literaly as they weren't deceased or experienxcing assumption or translation. I think that expression simply means they were recieving instruction in the faith of their fathers.
It in fact, does not say they were going in. it says:"that are entering to go in." which is awkward if it simply meant they were going in. I think you might agree on this, even if it doesn't change your position on the issue.

To say otherwise simply nullifies the whole point of the passage, of false teachers preventing people of entering heaven by alledging they were not actually entering heaven and therefore they were not blocked. That dog will not hunt.

I thought the point of the passage was the same as the whole chapter, to criticize the religious establishment for spiritual crimes, the core of which I would surmise to be in this verse:
19: Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

 

[beloved57]

vans

Hi Beloved57, Romans 3 teaches that men can seek God.

No romans 3 teaches that men does not seek God

rom 3:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.