The evolutionist mindset

[alexgb00]

I don't think i'm putting my words in the author's mouth, Blader. I'm trying to clarify what he is saying. (Or is the author a woman? Oh well, it doesn't matter.)

Where's David?

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by alexgb00
I don't think i'm putting my words in the author's mouth, Blader. I'm trying to clarify what he is saying. (Or is the author a woman? Oh well, it doesn't matter.)

Where's David?

I live in Australia so my posting times are different.

As blader has pointed out, I said that the majority of americans were theists, not atheists.

I only pointed out that your signature is offensive and untrue because you seemed to take offence at the poem and claimed that what it said was misleading.

If you want to keep it in your signature, I will not complain to a moderator. That was not the point of my raising it.

As to a couple of your other points:

1.) Do all people who die heroically convert to christianity the instant before they die or do some burn in hell for eternity in your view?

2.) Who knows if I would choose to die heroically until tested? What is the point of that question?

 

[David Gould]

double post - oops.

 

[alexgb00]

David, i said the poem is misleading because it blatantly credits atheists with historical achievements, not Americans, Soviets, British, and other general groups who actually were responsible for those feats.

Also, i don't think the moderator will get rid of my signature because two people don't like it.

Do all people who die heroically convert to christianity the instant before they die or do some burn in hell for eternity in your view?

David, where did you get this idea? I don't believe that all heroes go to heaven. Certainly not. Some would argue that Hitler died a hero, committing suicide, so the Soviets wouldn't have captured him alive. I'm sure Hitler's in hell. I just suggested that some of the firemen who gave their lives demonstrated true love to strangers, and might have called on the Lord in their last minute. But those who have heard of Christ and didn't, probably went to hell. It's a sad thing to think about.

Who knows if I would choose to die heroically until tested? What is the point of that question?

I don't know. I can't say either. But those firemen and policemen died saving people without hesitation. That is what intrigues and touches me.

God bless you, David. (By the way, i like your signature a lot.)
Alex

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by alexgb00
Also, i don't think the moderator will get rid of my signature because two people don't like it.

Make that three.

Apparently, the US military disagrees with you since they do offer headstones to atheists. If you don't believe me see headstone 16 on page 4 of VA Form 40-1330. (Warning: It's a pdf (Adobe Acrobat) file.)

 

[David Gould]

Thanks. I like it, too.

(My questions were not rhetorical, by the way - I did not know exactly what you believed in regard to heroes).

I too am touched that people are willing to give their lives to save others.

However, I find it absolutely appalling that the God of the Christian faith sends non-believers who do so to Hell.

It is more than sad. It is...well, words fail me as to what it is.

I should have said that I hope I would act heroically but would probably fail. Heroes are a rare archtype in human society - that is why we hold them in such high esteem.  I might have heroic qualities but it is probably a bit too much to hope for.  

 

[David Gould]

With regard to the poem claiming credit for those things for atheists, I did not see it that way.

If you say, 'John defended this nation,' you do not mean that only John defended this nation.

However, I can see how you could interpret some of the statements that way. That's just not how I interpret it, simply because I doubt anyone would make that claim that only atheists won the war of independence, for example, as it is a nonsensical and untrue claim.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Saying "there are not atheists in foxholes" has about as much grain of truth as "there are no creationists in science."

Or "there are no Christians in the catholic church."

Anybody think of anymore?

 

[blader]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus


Make that three.

Apparently, the US military disagrees with you since they do offer headstones to atheists. If you don't believe me see headstone 16 on page 4 of VA Form 40-1330. (Warning: It's a pdf (Adobe Acrobat) file.)

I think that puts that little myth to rest. No pun intended. Thanks Rufus.

 

[RufusAtticus]

no problem

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus


Make that three.

Apparently, the US military disagrees with you since they do offer headstones to atheists. If you don't believe me see headstone 16 on page 4 of VA Form 40-1330.

Rufus and Blader, i'm surprised you still don't get my point. I know there are atheists in the armed forces. I'm not denying that, because that would be stupid.

To put it simply, when a soldier faces life-threatening danger, he will think about God even if he is an atheist. Perhaps even pray, like my atheist granddad did.

I hope this helps you understand my point. God bless you all!

 

[RufusAtticus]

But Alex, in making your point, you have completely ignored personal accounts of atheists who were in life-threatening danger, and never though once of God, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, or any other magic being. We understand your point, that's why we know there is no truth to it.

In fact, I know that there are no Christians in foxholes because, when faced with life-threatening danger, every Christian thinks about Hanuman.

 

[seebs]

I have to say, the "everyone believes in God when in danger" line is simultaneously not apparently true, and not a persuasive argument, IMHO. As someone observed, if you're in danger, you might as well assume whatever it is that would make it possible for you to survive, because if you're wrong, you're dead anyway... This would tend to support all sorts of beliefs... and yet, it doesn't make them *true*.

There does come a time, in every life, where either there's an afterlife, or you're *gone*. But that doesn't make an afterlife happen, any more than "either there's a doctor in the house or you die" makes there be a doctor nearby.

The truth or falsehood of a thing does not depend on its importance.

Anyway, as Rufus says, I suspect that most atheists don't "turn to God" when in danger; it would make no sense. To quote one of my favorite atheists, Isaac Asimov, "If I knew I had five minutes to live, I'd type a little faster."

 

[alexgb00]

Rvfvs, the only accounts of soldiers in combat not thinking about the hereafter is in Rambo movies. I have never read a soldier's account of how he tore off his shirt, jumped up with a machine gun and started mowing down whole divisions of gooks, copper casings piling up at his feet. That's fake-life comedy, not combat.

What do you think a soldier is most likely to think about, trapped in a foxhole with enemies lurking around? His car? His hairstyle? His future career as a lawyer? No, probably his family, his life and what will happen when he is dead.

As for your opinion that there is no truth to my signature, i can't agree. It's an age-old saying. I think it has a lot of wisdom in it. But if you insist that there is no truth in it, fine. Believe what you want. I can't tell you what to think. Just don't tell me what to think or say.

 

[alexgb00]

Seebs, nobody said that atheists suddenly turn to God when in danger.

It's true that if you're in danger, you will try to save yourself. But when lying in a foxhole, you have no place to run. Can't run, just hide and hold your breath. A Christian would pray. Don't you think God would cross an atheist's mind in this situation?

I've read the atheist Vietnam vet's testimony, but it's like whoever doesn't like my signature is ignoring the testimony my grandfather left. If you didn't see it, go back a page or two.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by alexgb00
Rvfvs, the only accounts of soldiers in combat not thinking about the hereafter is in Rambo movies. I have never read a soldier's account of how he tore off his shirt, jumped up with a machine gun and started mowing down whole divisions of gooks, copper casings piling up at his feet. That's fake-life comedy, not combat.

Apparently you haven't been bothering to read the links provided where veterens confirm that there are atheists in foxholes.

What do you think a soldier is most likely to think about, trapped in a foxhole with enemies lurking around? His car? His hairstyle? His future career as a lawyer? No, probably his family, his life and what will happen when he is dead.

I'd hope a trained soldier would be think how to best save his life and the lives of his squad and how to kill the enemy. Fear of eternity does not save lives.

As for your opinion that there is no truth to my signature, i can't agree.

So you're happy with just ignoring the evidence that there are atheists in foxholes.

It's an age-old saying.

Age-old? According to the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, it was invented by a military chaplain, William Thomas Cummings, in WW2. That's not what I'd call "age-old."

I think it has a lot of wisdom in it. But if you insist that there is no truth in it, fine. Believe what you want. I can't tell you what to think. Just don't tell me what to think or say.

You can think or say what ever you want, but don't expect it to be automatically true or even nice. Even jerks have the right to their opinion.

I've read the atheist Vietnam vet's testimony, but it's like whoever doesn't like my signature is ignoring the testimony my grandfather left.

So your grandfather was an atheist in a foxhole thinking about God. Thus there are no atheists in foxholes. How is that a logical conclusion?

I know of a few Christians who, when in a foxhole, didn't think about God, but rather used their training to save the day. Thus there are no Christians in foxholes. Using your form of deduction, we can take anything and say that there are none in foxholes.

Except for believers in Hanuman, because everyone faced with mortal danger thinks about Him, even if they don't know it.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Apparently you haven't been bothering to read the links provided where veterens confirm that there are atheists in foxholes.

One link was given by one person, and i read that man's testimony. I think you're ignorant, and don't want to admit that even the most die-hard atheist will think of God when his life is at stake.

I'd hope a trained soldier would be think how to best save his life and the lives of his squad and how to kill the enemy. Fear of eternity does not save lives.

Fear of eternity doesn't save lives -- it saves souls, which is more important.

By the way, generals try to, first, save their soldiers' lives, and secondly, minimize losses on the enemy side.

So you're happy with just ignoring the evidence that there are atheists in foxholes.

Evidence? More like one man's alleged testimony of something that happened 40 years ago.

Age-old? According to the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, it was invented by a military chaplain, William Thomas Cummings, in WW2. That's not what I'd call "age-old."

Depends. How long is an age? If this saying is from WWII, it's older than my age!

You can think or say what ever you want, but don't expect it to be automatically true or even nice. Even jerks have the right to their opinion.

Let me get this correct. I am to always say things that are nice. And yet you call me a jerk one sentence later. That's some hypocrisy.

So your grandfather was an atheist in a foxhole thinking about God. Thus there are no atheists in foxholes. How is that a logical conclusion?

No foxholes there were involved. Just battlefields on the eastern front. He wasn't thinking, but actually trying to pray to God.

A friend of my father's also grew up in the USSR, and served in the army there. He served at Baikonur, where the Russians launched rockets. Around the area there were also underground ballistic missile silos. This man is very smart, but is an atheist and drinks often. When i showed him the film "Left Behind," he told me he sometimes has dreams about nuclear war. He explained the feeling of knowing that your death is coming fast, and how he wakes up covered in cold sweat, gasping "Lord save me." This man is still a non-Christian, but he understands that man has no power to save others, even, let alone himself.

I know of a few Christians who, when in a foxhole, didn't think about God, but rather used their training to save the day. Thus there are no Christians in foxholes. Using your form of deduction, we can take anything and say that there are none in foxholes.

Rufus, don't twist my words in such a way. I know you know what i mean, and because you don't like it is no reason to lash me with sarcasm.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00


Rufus and Blader, i'm surprised you still don't get my point. I know there are atheists in the armed forces. I'm not denying that, because that would be stupid.

To put it simply, when a soldier faces life-threatening danger, he will think about God even if he is an atheist. Perhaps even pray, like my atheist granddad did.

I hope this helps you understand my point. God bless you all!

That's an incredibly broad definition of a non-atheist. So, just by thinking about God, you're no longer an atheist? What atheist can be an atheist without thinking about God? By that definition, just by NOT thinking about God for a moment, you're not longer a Christian? (As Rufus correctly pointed out)

On a related note: Do you believe that your grand dad, when he passes away, is going to hell?

 

[blader]

One link was given by one person, and i read that man's testimony. I think you're ignorant, and don't want to admit that even the most die-hard atheist will think of God when his life is at stake.

ONE link, ONE person, ONE testimony is enough to disprove your sig. If you want to say "most" that's cool, because I don't doubt that.

Besides, no one's claiming that NO atheists will think of God when his life is at stake. We're arguing against the claim that there are no atheists in foxholes. Thinking about God doesn't make you not atheist. If that was true, then there wouldn't be any atheists on this board, would there?

Evidence? More like one man's alleged testimony of something that happened 40 years ago

The article was written in 1987. Which is only 22 years after the events. In any case, here we have a man who actually did go through with actual combat, who says he was an atheist throughout. All you have to go on is a flimsy arbitrary dismissal of the man's very own memories, which strangely enough seems pretty detailed from what he wrote.

If that's not evidence, then no evidence will satisfy you.

Another atheist in a foxhole:

"Who says there aren't any atheists in foxholes? Mr. Finley has been in a variety of overseas missions as a US Army infantryman and received an honorable discharge as well as a multitude of awards. Upon Leaving the US Army, Mr. Finley became a Federal law Enforcement officer and received another honorable discharge from the Army National Guard."
http://www.infidelguy.com/about.htm

 

[blader]

Another atheist in a foxhole:

"I recently left the U.S. Army after twelve years of service. I participated in both Just Cause and Desert Shield/Storm. Among other assignments, I have worked in El Salvador during the war there in the early Eighties and Colombia dealing with counter drug operations. During a situation in El Sal, I was face to face with an insurgent pointing an M-16 directly at my head before he was shot by a security guard. During Saudi, aside from being shot at, I watched the main bulk of a "destroyed" SCUD fall right next to the building I was visiting in Riyhad (we were on the roof watching the fireworks!). I tell you what, I was sure it was going to fall directly on us!

In none of these, or any other situation, did I ever become "reborn," pray for forgivness, or otherwise profess my devotion to any deity. The only things that consitantly went through my mind was.... "Oh sh*t..." (New World Scribe) "
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com/A4.html