The evolutionist mindset

[blader]

I'm probably wasting my time.... but just so you can't say it's just "one" testimony, here's yet MORE atheists in foxholes.. this time from a father and a son:

"Often we find this argument being used in the "there are no atheists in foxholes" statement. There are atheists in foxholes. I served in the Navy for almost ten years and encountered several life-threatening situations. Not once did I pray to a god to get me through the crisis.

During any time of crisis or times when death was around the corner did I ever turn to a god for help. It was my own inner strength and my own ability, as a thinking human being, to figure out my dilemma and a way out of it.

My father served in Vietnam. It was Vietnam that made him realize that there was no god and he became an atheist in the foxhole. It was the foxhole that made an atheist. Several friends of mine served time during war and each of them found strength in their atheism instead of finding a god in their foxhole. War to them was proof that there was no god."
http://atheismawareness.home.att.net/questions/crisis_strength.htm

I'd like to see you dismiss these with a wave like you did with the first link too.

 

[blader]

Oh yeah, you guessed it. Even MORE atheists in foxholes:

"I doubt I have the extraordinary courage exhibited by the firefighters and police officers in New York. But I have served my country and was awarded a Civilian Service Medal for 18 months in Viet Nam. I drove over bridges where explosives were rumored to have been placed…sat in a plane that came under enemy fire…looked out the window of my vehicle to see the ground being pockmarked by bullets…and woke in the middle of the night to the sounds of incoming mortar and debris hitting the tin roof above my head wondering if it was harmless dirt or penetrating shrapnel.

Never once did I seek the protection of some god figure. To suggest that mortal danger causes atheists to abandon their heartfelt beliefs is insulting beyond measure."
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/bourdonnay_22_2.htm

Are these all the product of "memory loss?" One person, you might have a bit of plausible deniability, but are you going to claim now that you know ALL of these people better than they do themselves?

If even one of these is valid, then that is more than enough to entirely invalidate that cliche in your sig. I don't care if you keep it at all. If you like to display a signature that you know is completely untrue, then that to me is just an indication of arrogance.

 

[Lanakila]

We had this atheists in foxholes discussion on the Apologetics forum, and the debate came down to this same conclusion. The word "No" should probably be changed to few.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
That's an incredibly broad definition of a non-atheist. So, just by thinking about God, you're no longer an atheist? What atheist can be an atheist without thinking about God? By that definition, just by NOT thinking about God for a moment, you're not longer a Christian? (As Rufus correctly pointed out)

On a related note: Do you believe that your grand dad, when he passes away, is going to hell?

An atheist supposedly doesn't believe God exists. How many times have you thought about things you were sure don't exist, like the bogeyman? By definition, it's hard to be an atheist while thinking about God. I don't mean that thinking about God makes someone a Christian, though.

The way i see it, it is like this: not thinking about God in a given moment doesn't make one an unbeliever -- thinking about God makes one a believer. I wish i could come up with an analogy that fits.

Blader, my grandfather died when my dad was still a kid. I only know this story from what my grandma told me (they were both born around 1918). From what she has told me, i don't think he went to heaven. Few people were Christians in the Soviet Union, by the way.

 

 

[alexgb00]

Nice quotes, Blader. Too bad we have only the word of these people, and can't really see what happened. We both tend to believe stories which benefit our arguments.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by alexgb00
Nice quotes, Blader. Too bad we have only the word of these people, and can't really see what happened. We both tend to believe stories which benefit our arguments.

So you accept your grandfather's tale of his personal experience, but not the stories of other soldiers. Why? Because they contradict your belief that the godless can't possibly go through trama without invoking God? Sorry, but that isn't an intellectually honest why of evaluating data. If data doesn't fit a premise, it's the premise that is wrong not the data.

"It is my personal opinion that no one can suffer trama and still be a Christian, any tale otherwise is obviously false since it contradicts my opinion. There is no such thing as a Christian soldier."

The logical errors of the above statement are the same ones you have been making.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00
Nice quotes, Blader. Too bad we have only the word of these people, and can't really see what happened. We both tend to believe stories which benefit our arguments.

It's one thing to be more prone to believe things which supports one's arguments, but it's an entire other matter when you dismiss out of hand five independent accounts just because it doesn't agree with your personal beliefs.

If nothing else, this is evidence. Unless you can show that all five of these independent accounts, or even just one or two, are completely false, then this is pretty good evidence by any measure. Just because we personally were not there with them doesn't make everyone of these five accounts false. We weren't personally there at Pearl Harbor, either, but we know that happened. How? Through personal accounts much like the above. Like I said, only one of these need to be true in order to disprove entirely your sig.

Through a quick search, I managed to pull up five accounts. These are just the ones that bothered to write and post them on the internet. Is it REALLY that hard to believe that there is just ONE atheist out of the many hundreds of millions out there who may not have thought about God when faced with a life threatening situation? Is it that hard to believe that an atheist would be concentrated on saving one's own life and that of others before thinking about religion?

Basically, what Rufus said.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
So you accept your grandfather's tale of his personal experience, but not the stories of other soldiers. Why? Because they contradict your belief that the godless can't possibly go through trama without invoking God? Sorry, but that isn't an intellectually honest why of evaluating data. If data doesn't fit a premise, it's the premise that is wrong not the data.

Because he was my grandfather, simply put. I don't personally know anyone of the other soldiers. Hey, an idea occurred to me just now -- some of those testimonies could be the writing of 12-year-old boys, writing stories for their English class. See my point? None of us can know a stranger from the internet, and automatically believe his every word. A testimony like this hardly qualifies as "data."

"It is my personal opinion that no one can suffer trama and still be a Christian, any tale otherwise is obviously false since it contradicts my opinion. There is no such thing as a Christian soldier."

Your opinion is just that. "There are no atheists in foxholes" is a phrase coined by a WWII military chaplain who has seen action and talked to people who went through combat. Moreover, it is, to some degree, backed up by the science of psychology.

The logical errors of the above statement are the same ones you have been making.

If you have set your mind against what i say, you won't accept it no matter what. Honestly, i've set my mind against evolution. So shoot me.

 

[alexgb00]

Actually, it's occurred to me that there are people who aren't afraid for their life. Japanese kamikazees, for example. There's also the Germans who were supposedly drugged, in some instances, to make them forget their natural desire for life.

But dazed people like that, let's just say you'll never find one in a foxhole. A foxhole, of course, being a classic symbol of trying to conserve your God-given life.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by alexgb00
Because he was my grandfather, simply put. I don't personally know anyone of the other soldiers. Hey, an idea occurred to me just now -- some of those testimonies could be the writing of 12-year-old boys, writing stories for their English class. See my point? None of us can know a stranger from the internet, and automatically believe his every word. A testimony like this hardly qualifies as "data."

Your opinion is just that. "There are no atheists in foxholes" is a phrase coined by a WWII military chaplain who has seen action and talked to people who went through combat.

But you don't know that chaplain or the soldiers he talked to, by your criteria for evidence in this case, which you listed above, you can't believe their stories. So if you are going to have a consistent argument, you can't use them. It seems to me that you are willing to only accept the testimonies of soldiers that confirm your premise and are perfectly willing the ignore others that have the same amount of support in an attempt to preserve your belief. However, such tactics reveal the true nature of your belief.

Moreover, it is, to some degree, backed up by the science of psychology.

Really now? You don't happen to be able to produce any papers from peer-reviewed literature that shows that every godless soldier faced with mortal danger will cling to God. Until you do, your assertion has no weight.

If you have set your mind against what i say, you won't accept it no matter what. Honestly, i've set my mind against evolution. So shoot me.

There reason why I don't believe you when you say there are no atheists in foxholes is because there is evidence for atheists in foxholes, as anyone can plainly see by reading this thread. So far you have done nothing to refute those testimonies, other than steadfastly denying them. Maybe you should work on defending your premise, instead of insisting that those that don't agree with you have closed minds.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00
Actually, it's occurred to me that there are people who aren't afraid for their life. Japanese kamikazees, for example. There's also the Germans who were supposedly drugged, in some instances, to make them forget their natural desire for life.

But dazed people like that, let's just say you'll never find one in a foxhole. A foxhole, of course, being a classic symbol of trying to conserve your God-given life.

Japanese kamikazes were far from atheists. They were actually Shintoists, who believed in the deity of their Emperor, Hirohito.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00

Because he was my grandfather, simply put. I don't personally know anyone of the other soldiers. Hey, an idea occurred to me just now -- some of those testimonies could be the writing of 12-year-old boys, writing stories for their English class. See my point? None of us can know a stranger from the internet, and automatically believe his every word. A testimony like this hardly qualifies as "data."

That's pretty desperate. So you just did exactly what I expected you to do: dismiss ALL FIVE of these INDEPENDENT accounts with a wave of your hand by saying "I don't know these people, so they must not be true." Where's the evidence for these claims? The ball's in your court.

Maybe your grandfather could be really be insane and was dreaming about the whole thing. I could maybe like this all day long, but obviously it's worthless unless I can show you some evidence to that effect.

Your opinion is just that. "There are no atheists in foxholes" is a phrase coined by a WWII military chaplain who has seen action and talked to people who went through combat. Moreover, it is, to some degree, backed up by the science of psychology.

Or maybe the phrase was coined up by a 12 year old writing an english paper. Or maybe the psychology paper was written by a 12 year old. See how inane this argument is? Obviously they don't hold up, for the same reasons they don't hold up when you used it.

If you have set your mind against what i say, you won't accept it no matter what. Honestly, i've set my mind against evolution. So shoot me.

This isn't about evolution. This is about a emperically testable and verifiable fact: THERE ARE ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
But you don't know that chaplain or the soldiers he talked to, by your criteria for evidence in this case, which you listed above, you can't believe their stories. So if you are going to have a consistent argument, you can't use them. It seems to me that you are willing to only accept the testimonies of soldiers that confirm your premise and are perfectly willing the ignore others that have the same amount of support in an attempt to preserve your belief. However, such tactics reveal the true nature of your belief.

One thing i can trust is that the chaplain was a real person (it was Blader who cited it, not i), as opposed to "internet writers," about whom we can't know anything. My sister might as well write a "testimony" impersonating one of Nikita Khruschev's top officers in WWII. And nobody will be the wiser.

As for me believing sources that support my claim and you believing what supports your claim, i'm not denying that. I said it myself.

Really now? You don't happen to be able to produce any papers from peer-reviewed literature that shows that every godless soldier faced with mortal danger will cling to God. Until you do, your assertion has no weight.

It's amazing how stiff-necked you are. Look at my exact words, and rephrase your objection. I'm not even going to attempt to incriminate myself by replying to your comment.

There reason why I don't believe you when you say there are no atheists in foxholes is because there is evidence for atheists in foxholes, as anyone can plainly see by reading this thread. So far you have done nothing to refute those testimonies, other than steadfastly denying them. Maybe you should work on defending your premise, instead of insisting that those that don't agree with you have closed minds.

Your evidence is five alleged veterans, none of which sat in a foxhole. As for refuting, i showed you a quote from June 6, 1944: The Voices of D-Day. It's not something from a geocities site (like your evidence), but a quote from a known historian.

Alex

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
Japanese kamikazes were far from atheists. They were actually Shintoists, who believed in the deity of their Emperor, Hirohito.

Where do you see me saying that the kamikazes were atheists? Please don't make it harder for yourself.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00


Where do you see me saying that the kamikazes were atheists? Please don't make it harder for yourself.

Well in that case, I don't see the point of your post.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
That's pretty desperate. So you just did exactly what I expected you to do: dismiss ALL FIVE of these INDEPENDENT accounts with a wave of your hand by saying "I don't know these people, so they must not be true." Where's the evidence for these claims? The ball's in your court.

That's what i expected you to do, also --  take my words, mix them around and attempt to make me look like a hopeless idiot. You're right. You've provided no evidence that these men ever existed, let lay in a foxhole reciting atheist mantras.

Maybe your grandfather could be really be insane and was dreaming about the whole thing. I could maybe like this all day long, but obviously it's worthless unless I can show you some evidence to that effect.

Yes, and the shrapnel in his leg that he took to his grave is also a figment of his rich imagination. Maybe my grandma is also insane, and all six of her children?

Ask yourself -- would a proud atheist "imagine" that he recited the 91st psalm in battle, and then brag about it?

Or maybe the phrase was coined up by a 12 year old writing an english paper. Or maybe the psychology paper was written by a 12 year old. See how inane this argument is? Obviously they don't hold up, for the same reasons they don't hold up when you used it.

You're the one who gave the link, because it benefitted you at the time. Don't give it up because it doesn't support your argument now.

A newspaper or book is a credible source -- an angelfire.com page isn't. You know perfectly well that this argument works in my favor.

This isn't about evolution. This is about a emperically testable and verifiable fact: THERE ARE ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES.

Again, i didn't say this was about evolution. Don't write quotes i never said in my name, all right Blader? I made an example, that just like you're completely opposed to my sig, i'm opposed to evolution.

That's a good one, though. It's testable and verifiable, huh? Why are you having trouble verifying it then? 

God bless you, Blader and Rufus.
Alex

PS -- The men whose testimonies you provided don't mention sitting in a foxhole.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
Well in that case, I don't see the point of your post.

SIGH. OK, Blader. Lemme expound it slowly for you. I'll try to enunciate.

The point of my post was: Not everyone values his life, and he might die without thinking about God. But not in a foxhole. People like this don't hop in and out of foxholes. When a soldier is in a hole underground, he is retreating. He is trying to avoid coming home in a pine box.

Does that seem simpler to understand? It isn't brain surgery, just simple logic.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00
That's what i expected you to do, also --  take my words, mix them around and attempt to make me look like a hopeless idiot. You're right. You've provided no evidence that these men ever existed, let lay in a foxhole reciting atheist mantras.

So your argument is that these five independent accounts are the works of people who never existed. That is your position? I have never encountered such arrogance.

There are references and/or contact information for all the links I have posted. If you think they're lying or you think that they don't exist, why don't you ask them yourself?

Yes, and the shrapnel in his leg that he took to his grave is also a figment of his rich imagination. Maybe my grandma is also insane, and all six of her children?

Yes, now you're getting it! The above is about as inane as the "they don't even exist" arguments you're using.

Ask yourself -- would a proud atheist "imagine" that he recited the 91st psalm in battle, and then brag about it?

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt your grandfather's claims. If he said it, then most likely, it is true. I'm just making a point about how stupid it is to make up random arguments like "they don't even exist." It seems that you would accept internet testimoney supporting your argument, but reject all that don't. If you have any, fine, I'll accept them. But like I said, all it takes is ONE case to blow your sig out of the water.

You're the one who gave the link, because it benefitted you at the time. Don't give it up because it doesn't support your argument now.

Like I said, I was just making a point. I don't doubt the chaplain's claims either.

A newspaper or book is a credible source -- an angelfire.com page isn't. You know perfectly well that this argument works in my favor.

Obviously you didn't even bother to read these references.... since not one of them came from an angelfire.com page.

But if you bothered to read the references, then this:

Two of them appeared in magazines, including the New World Scribe and The Humanist.
One was a broadcast from the National Public Radio.
The other two all had contact information so you could verify the stories personally.
Finally, the one in the post on the next page is by a verified member of the Order of the Purple Hearts.
Let me watch you redefine the meaning of credible source now.

Again, i didn't say this was about evolution. Don't write quotes i never said in my name, all right Blader? I made an example, that just like you're completely opposed to my sig, i'm opposed to evolution.

Fair enough. In that case, the same argument, right back atcha.

That's a good one, though. It's testable and verifiable, huh? Why are you having trouble verifying it then? 

What trouble am I having, really? I have their contact information, I have the references. If you don't believe me, then do your own homework.

PS -- The men whose testimonies you provided don't mention sitting in a foxhole. [/B]

Obviously symbolism is lost on you. "Foxholes" in the phrase is used to refer to any life threatening situation, not an ACTUAL foxhole. Ask any one of your teachers.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00


SIGH. OK, Blader. Lemme expound it slowly for you. I'll try to enunciate.

The point of my post was: Not everyone values his life, and he might die without thinking about God. But not in a foxhole. People like this don't hop in and out of foxholes. When a soldier is in a hole underground, he is retreating. He is trying to avoid coming home in a pine box.

Does that seem simpler to understand? It isn't brain surgery, just simple logic.

Don't try to patronize me when you're the one with the non sequiter. It was already irritating the first time, and you're getting better at it. It's difficult to logically follow what doesn't logically follow.

My comment still stands. I don't see the point of the above as it relates to "there are NO atheists in fox holes," and I especially don't see how it supports your argument in any way. Hence, it is a non sequiter. If one values his life, then the FIRST thing he would do is to TRY TO SAVE IT, NOT wonder if God exists.

 

[blader]

Here's another story. This one is from Spike Tyson. I assure you, the man does exist, and he's got the Purple Heart to prove it.

"At a recent reunion of an Army division, Spike Tyson said that a person approached the podium and said "Of course, we know there are no Atheists in foxholes." At which time, Spike got up and protested rather loudly that there are, indeed, "Atheists in foxholes" (He also has several Purple Hearts from his duty in Vietnam and is a member of the Order of Purple Hearts). "
http://www.infidels.org/~nap/veterans_organizations.html