The evidence for Evolution.

[In situ]

... while we're at it, and since you seem to want to continue to prod a dead issue, I'd have to contend that without Darwin and his theory, Marx wouldn't have had the theory of evolution to spur his thinking on at a political level, and Marx would not have been able to dedicate his work, as he did, to Darwin. To that level, there is at least a modicum of "cause and effect ..."

And I suppose I can go with some of the ideas of Dan McMillan as well. (Yep, absolutely "no" causation there )

Hitler, Darwin and the Holocaust

I suggest, as you already did, that we drop it. I said what I wanted to say, and I assume you done the same. I do not have much more to add to it. To continue make post in where we only are telling each other that we do not agree with each other seams rather pointless in particular when this discussion is not the intention with my OP.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No, that only applies to Christians who held your view of the Bible to start with. The rest did not have to change our view of the Genesis creation stories in a radical way in order to accommodate the findings of modern science, so our faith is not at risk.

You'll have to drop all of what you are saying on the table before I comment. You left out pertinent details.

 

[In situ]

I don't really have any other aspect that I would offer on the table; I typically respond to what I perceive to be errors in other people's thinking. It's the philosopher in me, I suppose. So, unless you have something you want to talk about, I'd say we're on a similar page as to the fact of evolution and the conceptual nature of the Theory of Evolution. I'm not a Creationist in the literal sense, so I don't have much to argue. I'm also a Methodological Materialist when it comes to science, so again, with you at least, I don't think I have much to argue.

Well there is one post I made, not in this thread, that I like to have input on from people like you. I my post Does the evidence point at one or several creators? I am asking the question, based on the argument from ID, if the evidence in nature points at one creator or several creators.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Let me be a little more clear with my thoughts on this.

This did not start out to be a conspiracy by man/Darwin, however it is a conspiracy by Satan. that should not be a surprise to us as Satan is into that type thing, or getting us to not believe in God. In this case, he offered an alternative.


It started with Darwins "theory" and what a few still see as theory, but is fast becoming accepted fact, just as was expected. All carried out by doing it in bits and pieces and over much time so those with weak or no faith could not put it all together. It was to sneak up on us quietly, over time, and it did.

first, Darwin's announcement over 100yrs ago. then the announcement becoming accepted more an more over time. Then Christians being convinced it could fit right into Christianity. Slowly but surely it has evolved just as was intended. Next, and it's already happening, the Christians will dump more of the bible as not fact...creation turned out not to be fact so why believe in other parts of the bible? Until finally, God is dropped altogether by some, then those, and those who never wanted anything to do with faith to begin with will continue to push it to the point, you have to be an idiot to believe such fairy tales like creation (sound familiar)

Plan complete.

End result, Satan gains just exactly what he set out to, but I would guess, God allowed it, and for good reason. That being, because mans faith needs to be tested so he can separate those that are truly his to the end, from those that are not. The Atheists, though lost already, still have a role in this, they give it momentum, and keep the momentum going throughout the deception.

Does that really surprise some of you Christians?

All evolutionists have is what they call fact/theory and the fact that any solid proof of that is all hidden in time and we'll just have to accept it because all kinds of so-called evidence *must* equate to fact. When in reality, no amount of wrong/contrived/with agenda evidence equals the tiniest bit of fact. Way too much wrong with that picture.

All Christians have is a universe that needs explaining, a universe that is so complex we have not even begun to unlock it's mysteries. Then we have to decide, what are the odds all that just happened without it being created?

As I keep saying, I have never seen anything come to be unless it was created, so to me the answer is easy, and that evidence alone overwhelmingly points to God, not big bang or evolution. And all that can be decided even before one looks at Gods word that in turn, drives it all home perfectly.

Well, these are all things to consider, Kenny, but I disagree with your overall understanding as to what eschatalogical place the ToE has to play in the delusion of non-Christians in the "end-times."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well there is one post I made, not in this thread, that I like to have input on from people like you. I my post Does the evidence point at one or several creators? I am asking the question, based on the argument from ID, if the evidence in nature points at one creator or several creators.

Interesting. Ok. I'll see if I can find time to jump over there sometime soon and post something for us to think about.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I suggest, as you already did, that we drop it. I said what I wanted to say, and I assume you done the same. I do not have much more to add to it. To continue make post in where we only are telling each other that we do not agree with each other seams rather pointless in particular when this discussion is not the intention with my OP.

Alright, then.

 

[Speedwell]

You'll have to drop all of what you are saying on the table before I comment. You left out pertinent details.

For instance? I'm not sure of exactly what kind of detail you want beyond the obvious differences in how the Bible has historically been viewed by Christians generally and how it is viewed by conservative Evangelical Protestants.
Sola Scriptura? The notion that the Bible is supposed to represent an accurate and unbroken timeline of history from Creation to the Last Trump? The doctrine of Plenary Verbal Inspiration? Perspicuity? Self-interpretation? Take your pick. The fact is that the theory of evolution has only posed a real problem for Western European Protestantism. The Romans have had little difficulty with it and the Orthodox and Oriental churches none at all.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Well, these are all things to consider, Kenny, but I disagree with your overall understanding as to what eschatalogical place the ToE has to play in the delusion of non-Christians in the "end-times."

That's ok, it makes sense you would not. I guess it's already clear I absolutely do..so...

 

[In situ]

This did not start out to be a conspiracy by man/Darwin, however it is a conspiracy by Satan. that should not be a surprise to us as Satan is into that type thing, or getting us to not believe in God. In this case, he offered an alternative.

May I remind you that this forum is supposed to discuss the scientific basis behind the theory of evolution and not assume assertions to be true.

Therefore I need ask you for the scientific evidence for the assertions that:

1) Satan exists.
2) Satan is behind all this.

Notice; unless you provided with undisputed evidence for 1) you cannot, under any circumstances, maintain the 2nd thesis that Satan is behind it as a truth.

 

[Kenny'sID]

For instance? I'm not sure of exactly what kind of detail you want beyond the obvious differences in how the Bible has historically been viewed by Christians generally and how it is viewed by conservative Evangelical Protestants.
Sola Scriptura? The notion that the Bible is supposed to represent an accurate and unbroken timeline of history from Creation to the Last Trump? The doctrine of Plenary Verbal Inspiration? Perspicuity? Self-interpretation? Take your pick. The fact is that the theory of evolution has only posed a real problem for Western European Protestantism. The Romans have had little difficulty with it and the Orthodox and Oriental churches none at all.

I kinda figured you knew just what I meant.

If you choose not to take the bible literally, where it is clearly meant to be taken literally, that is up to you. If you feel disbelief in Gods word, even though you spin it into otherwise by playing with terms like "interpretation", is not going to put you at risk, that too is up to you.

 

[Kenny'sID]

May I remind you that this forum is supposed to discuss the scientific basis behind the theory of evolution and not assume assertions to be true.

Are you really so threatened by that? I assumed nothing, I showed facts, things that have actually happened and are happening.

You believe in evolution, and are talking to *me* about assumptions?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Therefore I need ask you for the scientific evidence for the assertions that:

1) Satan exists.
2) Satan is behind all this.

Notice; unless you provided with undisputed evidence for 1) you cannot, under any circumstances, maintain the 2nd thesis that Satan is behind it as a truth.

Shocking news for you, I don't have to play by Atheist rules.

1)Satan exists because the bible says he exists, and if it surprises you to hear that on a Christian forum, then maybe you need to step back and consider what a Christian forum is about.

2)I've already give my reasons I believe as I do...did so right there when I told you what I believe. Now go pick those reasons out and come back and tell me where I ere, and where I do not.

 

[Speedwell]

I kinda figured you knew just what I meant.

If you choose not to take the bible literally, where it is clearly meant to be taken literally, that is up to you. If you feel disbelief in Gods word, even though you spin it into otherwise by playing with terms like "interpretation", is not going to put you at risk, that too is up to you.

Right. I was just trying to explain to you why most Christians did not have to change their traditional view of scripture to accommodate the findings of modern science. Protestants had to, and it has had the effect on them which you describe, turning them wishy-washy on the Gospels or into strident and defensive YECs.

 

[In situ]

It started with Darwins "theory" and what a few still see as theory

Incorrect. Science starts with a hyptohes (a question). Science never starts with a theory (the answer). It helps if you understand the basic science process before you try to comment on it.

what a few still see as theory

Those "few" is more or less the entire collected expertise in the area, namely every single biologists. All of them, every single one of them, with no exceptions, sees it as a theory. This whether or not they agree with it.

Again, it helps if you understand what it is you are talking about.

but is fast becoming accepted fact,

In science, theories consist of a body of facts and includes explanation of those facts, so how a theory "becomes a fact" is a mystery to me. Do you mind explaining yourself?

If you refer to things like adaptation or change over time, a change of gene frequencies in a population etc, which are observed natural phenomenons sometimes referred to as "evolution", then yes "evolution" is indeed an observed fact. However that should not be confused with the Theory of Evolution which is the framework to explain facts such as those.

Then you said:

All carried out by doing it in bits and pieces and over much time so those with weak or no faith could not put it all together. It was to sneak up on us quietly, over time, and it did.

I don't even know what this gibberish is supposed to mean - if it even mean anything more than "I don't understand the theory of evolution, therefore nobody else does and therefore it must be wrong, and therefore Satan is behind it".

 

[In situ]

Shocking news for you, I don't have to play by Atheist rules..

No but you are asked to play by the rules of this forum - which is set up by Christians and which you just called atheists, i.e. not Christian, which is aswell against the rules on ChristanForum.

 

[In situ]

1)Satan exists because the bible says he exists,

While a reference to the Bible may qualify as evidence for a Christian, it does not qualify as evidence for non-Christians. I assume you understand this and respect my request when asking for evidence.

and if it surprises you to hear that on a Christian forum, then maybe you need to step back and consider what a Christian forum is about.

Maybe you shall read the rules of this forum - rules made by the the Christian's of this site. Those rules says just what I informed you about. I am not telling you what the rules are I am telling you what the rules says.

Do you understand that differences?

2)I've already give my reasons I believe as I do...did so right there when I told you what I believe. Now go pick those reasons out and come back and tell me where I ere, and where I do not.

You try to prove one assertion with another? You now assert you given your reason, somewhere at some time, but do not provide with a reference to it. Hmmm....

Frankly, I don't care about what you believe, I care about why you believe it. But it is clear you reason for believing it is "because it says so in the bible".

If that is the case, then where in the bible does it suggest that Darwin's theory of evolution is a conspiracy made up by Satan?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Incorrect. Science starts with a hyptohes (a question). Science never starts with a theory (the answer). It helps if you understand the basic science process before you try to comment on it.

I don't care where science starts. Why are you even bringing that up? My scenario started with Darwin's announcement. It' my scenario, it starts where I say it does. lol.

Those "few" is more or "less" the entire collected expertise in the area, namely every single biologists. All of them, every single one of them, with no exceptions, sees it as a theory. This whether or not they agree with i

Again, it helps if you understand what it is you are talking about.

No, it helps if you pay attention and tell the truth.

That has not been my experience, far from it...take the "expert" in the video for instance..that in itself shows what you just claimed is a flat out lie. Beyond that, In my experience, you are simply not telling the truth there, not even close. Also I'm not talking about just the experts.

I was going to answer more but you have gotten off to such a bad start here, I'm not sure if it's going to be worth the honest effort. I mean how can I take this seriously if you are going to go that route? You lied in order to make yourself right, and I'm not going to play if that's how this is going to play out. No sense in it, when we are supposed to be about what is the truth here.

how bout simply proving to me, what I said is

 

[Kenny'sID]

No but you are asked to play by the rules of this forum - which is set up by Christians and which you just called atheists, i.e. not Christian, which is aswell against the rules on ChristanForum.

What rules?

 

[Kenny'sID]

While the Bible may qualify as evidence for a Christian, it does not qualify as evidence for non-Christains. I assume you understand this and respect my request when asking for evidence.

Sure I do, you didn't seem to respect mine, had you, the question would not have even been asked.

Frankly, I don't care about what you believe, I care about why you believe it. But it is clear you reason for believing it is "because it says so in the bible".

Wrong, I gave my reasons for believing throughout, step by step, and it was NOT all just because it said so in the bible.. What is wrong with you? Why do you keep harping on something that simply is not there to harp on?

I think we are done here. I gave it an honest try but you are completely asleep at the wheel, and by choice.

 

[Speedwell]

What rules?

"Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed."
http://www.christianforums.com/help/rules/