The Eternality of Hell

[mmksparbud]

Christianity s all about getting to KNOW God through Jesus. KNOWING HIM, not knowing facts. It is God's character that we are drawn to. To be with Him is our objective, However, God's objective is to be with us and to give us beauty and joy is His delight. Not that we deserve it, but because He is good and kind and giving and merciful and JUST.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Isa_64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
1Co_2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

[mmksparbud]

The believe in an eternal punishing tells more about the condition of the heart of the believer, than about God. He is just and merciful, those who believe i9n an everlasting hell do not know the God of this universe and if you do not know God, He will not know you. He is all about love and JUSTICE, there is no justice in an everlasting punishing.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't see him this way, either. Though, the Bible does paint a pretty grim picture of him. See Isaiah 53.



Popular? In what sense? Well-loved? People followed him in great hordes because he was healing them and because its cool to see miracles performed. Sometimes he even gave them food to eat. Does this count as popularity? Of a sort, I suppose. Well-loved? Meh. Not so much. He was crucified in the end, you know.

Jesus was full of light. Was he a high-humored fellow, laughing all the time? Not if Scripture is to be trusted. He was, according to the Bible, "despised" and a "man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." The apostle John wrote that Christ "came unto his own and his own received him not." We certainly never read of Jesus joking around or regaling his audiences with funny stories. Instead, his parables were full of warnings and confusing spiritual references. Nothing in Scripture even hints that Jesus was a sanguine sort, drawing crowds of fun seekers after him, a popular fellow among the Jews.



You belie your claim to believe strongly in salvation by grace when in the next moment you declare that there is nothing in Scripture you would insist upon. How strongly can you really believe something you think the next person can ignore - especially when it comes to the matter of salvation? Certainly, Jesus didn't take your loose view of truth. He stands sharply in contrast to you, in fact, preaching a very exclusivistic and singular way to God:

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Selah.

My salvation and relationship with Jesus is a joyful thing. I'm sorry that I just can't see it any other way. And while I do not discount or dispute the value of the Scriptures or that God speaks to us through them, I do believe Jesus was not a real big promoter of any form of legalism. So I choose not to put God in any kind of legalistic box but let him figure out how he is going to get things done.

 

[Foxfyre]

You know what's glaringly absent in your description here? God. But it is He who makes heaven heavenly. He is what makes being in heaven worth it. King David understood this, he understood the centrality of God, not just to the existence of heaven, but to its beauty, joy and delight. So it was that he wrote of God, "Whom have I in heaven but you?" Candy, pizza, bbq ribs, dogs, horses - these are earthly, temporal things, pale, fading shadows of the infinite and awesome pleasure of fellowship with God. They are self-centered things, oriented toward pleasing and gratifying you. But heaven isn't about you. God's kingdom isn't about you. All of heaven and earth is about God. You're going to be powerfully disappointed, then, if you get to heaven expecting it to be party time, an eternal vacation in paradise with your friends and family. All of heaven is absorbed with God. He is praised there; He is lifted up; He is adored; He is the point of heaven. Does that turn your crank? Does that thrill your heart? If it doesn't, heaven is really gonna' suck for you.

Selah.

I didn't leave God out because he is always with me. I just took that as a given.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[HereIStand]

A dark picture of the eternity of hell from a non-Christian standpoint is No Exit by Sarte. One telling aspect of the play is that two characters are initially in denial about their reasons for ending up in hell, while a third character has no illusions about why she is there.

 

[aiki]

My salvation and relationship with Jesus is a joyful thing. I'm sorry that I just can't see it any other way. And while I do not discount or dispute the value of the Scriptures or that God speaks to us through them, I do believe Jesus was not a real big promoter of any form of legalism. So I choose not to put God in any kind of legalistic box but let him figure out how he is going to get things done.

I have no idea why you would apologize for taking joy in your relationship with Christ. Nothing I've said suggests you ought not to.

I'm not sure what you mean by legalism. Jesus was very exclusivistic in his preaching, very narrow in his thinking and even sometimes threatening. Does this count as "legalistic"? He said to sinners, "Go and sin no more." He declared, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No man comes unto the Father but by me." He taught, "If any man will come after me let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. " Do these things have a legalistic flavour to them? They certainly aren't light and fluffy statements. They don't throw wide the doors to just any sort of living and thinking, either. They are restrictive and demanding. Are they, then, just legalistic? Was Jesus just a legalist?

Selah.

 

[Halbhh]

Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

Well, perhaps we can agree that the devil and his angels (such as the 'beast') are going to endure in that fire. They are already immortal.

We can't be so sure that the "second death" isn't just precisely what the words sound like they mean, though, for humans souls.

It may be that unless human souls 'eat of the tree of life', are given eternal life, that unless they are given it, they do not otherwise have it.

In any case, it is awful either way. To "perish", to be "destroy"ed, to experience the "second death" -- not going to be anything less than a terrible experience. Either way, there will be awful despair, weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The loss of the infinite love that one could have had, and that was a free gift offered.

It surely could not matter whether a believer in Christ takes words like "perish" and "second death" to mean what they sound like they mean, or instead as a metaphor for the spirit in some esoteric way. What matters is that one believes fully in Christ, and follows Him, so that we can gain the unearned gift of eternal life!

 

[Foxfyre]

I have no idea why you would apologize for taking joy in your relationship with Christ. Nothing I've said suggests you ought not to.

I'm not sure what you mean by legalism. Jesus was very exclusivistic in his preaching, very narrow in his thinking and even sometimes threatening. Does this count as "legalistic"? He said to sinners, "Go and sin no more." He declared, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No man comes unto the Father but by me." He taught, "If any man will come after me let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. " Do these things have a legalistic flavour to them? They certainly aren't light and fluffy statements. They don't throw wide the doors to just any sort of living and thinking, either. They are restrictive and demanding. Are they, then, just legalistic? Was Jesus just a legalist?

Selah.

And here we disagree. I think though Jesus strongly admonished those who demanded one thing but did not live what they preach, and those who judge and cheat others, Jesus was an example of tolerance, compassion, acceptance, and inclusiveness in what we have of his preaching and how he lived his life. And while he did say he is the Way, he left how that would happen open and undefined.

I do not fault you for your interpretation and will honor it. I just can't share it.

Pere Henri expressed much of my view here:

 

[trackstacks]

Many of us growing up in the USA may never had considered any other religion than the one we have, what if Islam was the true religion? How much information are we getting regarding such? It would be truly rotten if we gave our all wanting to serve God and in the end being BBQ's for being wrong, may God spare us from such a fate.

 

[Foxfyre]

Many of us growing up in the USA may never had considered any other religion than the one we have, what if Islam was the true religion? How much information are we getting regarding such? It would be truly rotten if we gave our all wanting to serve God and in the end being BBQ's for being wrong, may God spare us from such a fate.

In my opinion, when you have a relationship with the living God, you have a pretty good measure of reassurance that you are where you are supposed to be in that regard.

 

[aiki]

And here we disagree. I think though Jesus strongly admonished those who demanded one thing but did not live what they preach, and those who judge and cheat others, Jesus was an example of tolerance, compassion, acceptance, and inclusiveness in what we have of his preaching and how he lived his life. And while he did say he is the Way, he left how that would happen open and undefined.

I do not fault you for your interpretation and will honor it. I just can't share it.

I'm afraid you've taken up a Jesus who is little more than the embodiment of your own moral, and philosophical, and theological preferences. The Jesus you love is not the Jesus revealed in the Bible. You have made Christ just a mirror, a reflection, of who you are (or wish to be). Jesus was an example of tolerance? How so? He called the Pharisees "whitewashed tombs" and "brood of vipers" and "sons of hell." He tossed the moneychangers out of the temple. He told sinners to cease from their sin. He warned of a future divine judgment no one could escape. He said flatly and explicitly that no one could come to God the Father except through himself. This is not the speech and conduct of a tolerant person!

Jesus was compassionate; this is true. Accepting, though? He did not accept the Pharisees; he did not accept the Sadducees; he did not accept religious hypocrisy; he did not accept false teachers; he did not accept false doctrine; he did not accept the temple being made a place of commerce; he did not accept the sin of those he healed; he did not accept that there were alternative routes to God besides himself. And so on.

Jesus was inclusive? See above. Consider also the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:19-20
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

This doesn't sound particularly "inclusive" to me... In fact, it sounds rather like he's threatening the exclusion from the kingdom of heaven of any who break the commandments and teach others to follow suit.

Matthew 5:21-22
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Whoa! More threats, more exclusion, more condemnation of any who hold hatred in their heart toward another and who call their brother a fool. Jesus isn't sounding at all inclusive here...

Matthew 5:27-29
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Yikes! What's happened to your inclusive Jesus?! He sounds pretty severe, and condemning, and restrictive in his preaching, not inclusive. If a guy even looks on a woman with lust in his heart for her he's an adulterer? This makes most men today guilty of adultery! That's not a very inclusive moral standard for Jesus to establish!

And so it goes. You can read through the Gospels for yourself and see that the Jesus you've imagined in your head or absorbed from popular culture is not the Jesus revealed in the Bible. You seem to have adopted a rather sterile, milksop, fluffy bunny Jesus who is utterly contrary to the real Jesus.

As for Jesus teaching about being the Way - the only Way - to God, well, suggesting that he was vague and open-ended about what he meant is just patently false. He did say, "no man comes to God the Father except through me." That sounds pretty precise and narrow. Jesus also said:

John 3:14-15
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:9
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

The apostles who followed in Christ's footsteps and established the Early Church understood Jesus to be preaching a very singular way to God:

Acts 4:10-12
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Getting it wrong about Jesus can have eternally devastating consequences. It is only the Jesus of the Bible, the historical Jesus described in Scripture, not the Jesus you prefer to imagine and conform to modern notions of tolerance, relativism and pluralism, who can save. Your Jesus cannot save anyone. But the Saviour revealed to us in the pages of the Bible, the Jesus who is narrow-minded, and restrictive, and critical can "save to the uttermost." I would urge you to think carefully, then, about which Jesus you really want.

Selah.

 

[Shempster]

The Ockham's Razor version:

1. God knows all and created all.
2. He knew ahead of time that there would be a Satan.
3. He knew we would all be born into bodies that seemed pre-programmed to sin.

So looking at all of these things and applying the modern Church version of an eternal hell,
it would appear that the Creator purposely planned on nearly all of His creatures to suffer in life then endure endless agony while a choice few get to enjoy the bliss of heaven.

I might have to question the character and intention of such a God. Looking at Yeshua, I cannot see such a character.
Unless......you're going to throw in the other Church version as well. God MEANT for everything to work out for good, but....well.....He goofed. I don't know how that could be possible at all.

 

[Greg Merrill]

Many of us growing up in the USA may never had considered any other religion than the one we have, what if Islam was the true religion? How much information are we getting regarding such? It would be truly rotten if we gave our all wanting to serve God and in the end being BBQ's for being wrong, may God spare us from such a fate.

What you say here makes absolute sense. It is perfectly good reasoning.
You know, the Devil likes to do that... make absolute sense, and use perfectly good reasoning. The only problem with that is that just because these things are used, doesn't meaning that they are always correct. Often people use them and jump to the wrong conclusions. It didn't take much study of Islam for me to know that I didn't want anything to do with it. Josh McDowell, a former attacker of Christianity, studied the Bible at first to attack it. He then ended up writing "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" and "More Evidence That Demands a Verdict." both concluding that Christianity is the proper way to go. "The Case for Christianity" by a former atheistic lawyer turned Christian is also a good book. Do your own study (Acts 17:11) and make sure for yourself the right way to go.

 

[PollyJetix]

But if we take it literally, it indicates an end to the period of torment. Yes, the atonement provided by the sacrificial death of Christ is infinite. However, the Bible indicates that we will pay for our own sins, if we turn our backs on His gracious provision. The Bible indicates that there are different types of sin--those of the flesh, the world and the Devil. All are covered under the Blood of Christ of course, but perhaps there are different levels of punishment for those who refuse His gracious gift. Jesus indicated that there were different levels of punishment--that some would be given "few stripes" and that some would be given "many stripes". Something to think about.

If we could pay for our own sins, then Christ's death was unnecessary.

Yes, there are different levels of punishment in hell, but that does not indicate different lengths of "time" spent in an "eternity". Those terms are mutually exclusive. No time exists in eternity. Where you land, you land. Forever and ever.

 

[Greg Merrill]

The Ockham's Razor version:

1. God knows all and created all.
2. He knew ahead of time that there would be a Satan.
3. He knew we would all be born into bodies that seemed pre-programmed to sin.

So looking at all of these things and applying the modern Church version of an eternal hell,
it would appear that the Creator purposely planned on nearly all of His creatures to suffer in life then endure endless agony while a choice few get to enjoy the bliss of heaven.
I might have to question the character and intention of such a God. Looking at Yeshua, I cannot see such a character.
Unless......you're going to throw in the other Church version as well. God MEANT for everything to work out for good, but....well.....He goofed. I don't know how that could be possible at all.

God, knowing all things in advance, knowing that Lucifer and man would rebel against Him, and more people would go to Hell than Heaven, could have decided not to create man or angels. But God always does what is best. Though they would exercise their own free wills to do what was wrong, God still did the best thing, and they are responsible for their own decisions. God even decided to offer man a way of forgiveness (unlike the fallen angels), and to die in their place to pay the penalty of their sins. God has provided all that people need to spend eternity with Him in glory, if they will only receive the Salvation in Jesus that He offers them.

 

[CrystalDragon]

In my opinion, when you have a relationship with the living God, you have a pretty good measure of reassurance that you are where you are supposed to be in that regard.

I think many people of different religions could say they feel that secure that their religion is the true one.

 

[Shempster]

But God always does what is best.

So getting back to my point, how is creating everything despite the knowledge of the outcome doing "what is best"?
Trying to understand your point, but how about the character question?

 

[Greg Merrill]

So getting back to my point, how is creating everything despite the knowledge of the outcome doing "what is best"?
Trying to understand your point, but how about the character question?

Consider the alternative: A God with His hands tied. A Creator that doesn't create. A Mathematician that can't add anything to what is already in existence (God alone.) Evil wins when it doesn't even exist. God would not bring any good out of bad. Romans 8:28 would not exist. There would be no victory over evil. Jesus would not be victorious in His resurrection. No people would glory after being redeemed. And on, and on and on.

 

[aiki]

The Ockham's Razor version:

1. God knows all and created all.
2. He knew ahead of time that there would be a Satan.
3. He knew we would all be born into bodies that seemed pre-programmed to sin.

So looking at all of these things and applying the modern Church version of an eternal hell,
it would appear that the Creator purposely planned on nearly all of His creatures to suffer in life then endure endless agony while a choice few get to enjoy the bliss of heaven.

I might have to question the character and intention of such a God.

1. God knows all and is the Creator of everything. Yes, He does and is.
2. He knew ahead of time that Satan would exist and become the chief fallen angel that he is. Yes, but Satan is not solely responsible for the evil, rebellious heart of Man. Satan doesn't send us to hell. We do that to ourselves.
3. God knew we would all labor under the curse and power of our sinful nature. Yes, He did, which is why He made a way through Christ for all who would be saved to be saved.

Did God, then, purposely plan on having most of humanity suffer the fate of eternal hell? Did He want this to happen? Obviously not. "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." If God is perfectly good, which He must be to be God, then, of all the possible worlds He could have made, He made our world which He knew in His omniscience would produce the maximum number of people who would freely choose salvation. I don't see, then, that God was aiming to have the majority of people He made go to hell. That was never His goal. As a good God, His intention was to create a world of free moral agents in which the number of people who would be saved would be maximized. If there had been a possible world that would have done this better, being a good God, He would have created it. It doesn't appear to me, then, that God has done some great evil in creating a world where so many go to hell. That is the consequence of our free moral agency, not some evil intent on God's part. God has done all He could, given our freedom to choose as we like, to maximize the salvation of humanity.

Selah.