The Eternality of Hell

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

If I were designing the afterlife there would be retraining for those who were not yet redeemable. They would be trained until they could be redeemed.

It might seem hellish to them during the meantime, or it might not, depending on what they needed to be done to them to retrain them.

But I am not the designer of the afterlife, so my preferences don't matter.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If I were designing the afterlife there would be retraining for those who were not yet redeemable. They would be trained until they could be redeemed.

It might seem hellish to them during the meantime, or it might not, depending on what they needed to be done to them to retrain them.

But I am not the designer of the afterlife, so my preferences don't matter.

This thought is similar to the modern understanding of criminal rehabilitation either in a reformatory (where prisoners are reformed) or a penitentiary (where one becomes penitent and does penance for one's crimes). Although some prisoners do benefit from such treatment, too many,unfortunately, do not. The recidivism rate is truly much too large.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

This thought is similar to the modern understanding of criminal rehabilitation either in a reformatory (where prisoners are reformed) or a penitentiary (where one becomes penitent and does penance for one's crimes). Although some prisoners do benefit from such treatment, too many,unfortunately, do not. The recidivism rate is truly much too large.

I think it likely that there is not a good foundation for faith, in the case of some. We are told, in Scripture, that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" while "a fool says, in his heart, that 'there is no God'." Romans 3:18 tells us that the evildoers are the way that they are, because they have "no fear of God at all".

 

[Greg Merrill]

The Apostle Paul struggled with the concept of what God expects of us. He accepted that the death and resurrection of the Christ paid the price of our sin and assured us of eternal life even though we have all fallen short. But as a Pharisaic Jew he sometimes couldn't resist rescuing and defending the Law as the path of righteousness. And even as the gospel assures of of salvation and eternal life even though we are not worthy, the Book of James clearly reminds us that faith without works is dead.

I sometimes joke that one of the most terrible sinking feelings in the world would be to be standing behind Mother Teresa in line at the pearly gates and hear her being told: "Sorry Mother, you just didn't do enough to get in."

I think we all probably struggle at times with the yin and yang of faith vs works and what we think God expects of us.

I listened once to a young man who said that if you aren't baptized "in the NAME OF JESUS" you aren't saved. In other words if you are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, you are damned to hell.

And I just sigh. I can't imagine Jesus, who suffered and died on the cross as penance for our sins, would then make up a new kind of legalism that his sacrifice released us from.

And in my own faith, insisting that hell must be this or must be that, or presuming to know who will and will not be condemned to go there, is just another form of legalism. The Bible never refers to hell as 'eternal life' but only the life beyond where we will meet Jesus face to face.

Regarding Mother Teresa, if one is counting on their works to get them to heaven, then they are missing the point of Ephesians 2:8-9. Regarding the contrast between Paul and James, we are saved by faith (in Christ and Christ's work for us), we are justified (shown to have a faith that works, that is effective) by works. James wasn't speaking of what it takes to be saved, but what a saved person does after they are saved (serve God). Works are the result of being saved. The saved will want to work ( be of service to God.) Let's not get the cart before the horse. Salvation comes first, then works. Paul speaks about faith (in regards to this contrast) and James speaks about Christian living/works.

 

[Foxfyre]

Regarding Mother Teresa, if one is counting on their works to get them to heaven, then they are missing the point of Ephesians 2:8-9. Regarding the contrast between Paul and James, we are saved by faith (in Christ and Christ's work for us), we are justified (shown to have a faith that works, that is effective) by works. James wasn't speaking of what it takes to be saved, but what a saved person does after they are saved (serve God). Works are the result of being saved. The saved will want to work ( be of service to God.) Let's not get the cart before the horse. Salvation comes first, then works. Paul speaks about faith (in regards to this contrast) and James speaks about Christian living/works.

I think you guys are taking my remarks entirely too literally. As I don't think Christians and possibly some others need worry about hell, just trying to have a bit of fun with this.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think it likely that there is not a good foundation for faith, in the case of some. We are told, in Scripture, that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" while "a fool says, in his heart, that 'there is no God'." Romans 3:18 tells us that the evildoers are the way that they are, because they have "no fear of God at all".

Thank for your excellent response!

 

[Foxfyre]

If I were designing the afterlife there would be retraining for those who were not yet redeemable. They would be trained until they could be redeemed.

It might seem hellish to them during the meantime, or it might not, depending on what they needed to be done to them to retrain them.

But I am not the designer of the afterlife, so my preferences don't matter.

For sure we are neither designers or the dictators of the afterlife. However, though our goal is to be a witness and magnet for the One who assures us of a heavenly afterlife, I don't think there is any harm in having a bit of fun with it.

For instance I would be really disappointed if heaven was wearing filmy robes and floating around on clouds strumming harps. That might be fun for a few minutes, but. . ..

And then I think what would be heaven. For me, as well as I can imagine it, it would be loving people that were glad to see you and you them. It would be having something rewarding and useful to do that made us happy doing it. And it would have dogs and horses and beauty to behold. And cotton candy, pizza, popcorn, and barbqued ribs would be nice too.

 

[Greg Merrill]

For sure we are neither designers or the dictators of the afterlife. However, though our goal is to be a witness and magnet for the One who assures us of a heavenly afterlife, I don't think there is any harm in having a bit of fun with it.

For instance I would be really disappointed if heaven was wearing filmy robes and floating around on clouds strumming harps. That might be fun for a few minutes, but. . ..

And then I think what would be heaven. For me, as well as I can imagine it, it would be loving people that were glad to see you and you them. It would be having something rewarding and useful to do that made us happy doing it. And it would have dogs and horses and beauty to behold. And cotton candy, pizza, popcorn, and barbqued ribs would be nice too.

Oh, God is going to have an easy time in pleasing you. Heaven is going to be so much better than anyone can imagine beforehand. We are fundamentally flawed, limited creatures. God is unlimited in His capability of pleasing His children with the most wonderful things that He can think of in Heaven. Wow! What awaits us!!!

 

[Anna Scott]

Judging? No. But anyone who tells me the wickedness of humanity does not deserve the punishment of eternal hell reveals that they have a weak view of sin and a correspondingly low view of God's holiness. It is not indicative of some monstrous bent on God's part that He punishes our sin with such severity; He is not over-reacting to our sin. And it is not that we are misunderstanding the plain declaration of Scripture concerning God's wrathful punishment of the unrepentant wicked. When we look at the eternal torment of hell and say, "It is too much! It is too cruel!" We reveal we don't - and perhaps never fully can - properly see our sin as our perfectly holy and just God does. But this is a failing on our part, not His. Hell is not God over-reacting to our sin. Our horror at such punishment is our under-reaction to the heinousness of our sin.

You are really working hard to make this about an under-reaction to sin, rather than an interpretation issue. That puts a halt to any constructive discussion. I get it. You are the righteous one. Sadly, I cannot find an ounce of compassion in your writing.

What I will say is that Foxfyre's post does describe much of what I mean by "serving God, because He is God."

I'm with you trackstacks. (Interesting screen name ) I tried for years to be legalistic and a Bible literalist, but it just didn't work for me and there was no joy.

Once I decided to just accept God's love and grace and do my best to love him as best as I could, it has been so much more pleasant and every day brings some joy. That means I leave those things that are God's prerogative for Him to worry about and don't pretend to have the power or knowledge He has in such matters.

I do think to love Jesus is to live and witness in a way that encourages others to become curious and want to know him. We can only arrange the introduction and then leave it to God to take it from there.

And---Foxfyre is right about this:

And I don't know a soul who ever chose to know and love God or receive His blessings and grace by being told he/she was going to hell.

Thank you Foxfyre.

God is our Creator and the Creator of all things. God is one (Holy Trinity.) God is our King. God is Merciful and Just. God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Eternal, Holy and Perfect. I am constantly astonished by his protection and deliverance, even when I have asked for nothing. He is the author and perfecter of our faith. The list of praise is endless. This is part of why I say, we should, or at least should strive to serve God, because He is God.

Peace and blessings, Anna

 

[PollyJetix]

Please correct me, if I am wrong, but the only ones who are said to be tormented day and night "forever and ever" are Satan, the Antichrist, the False Prophet (Revelation 20:10) and those who take the Mark of the Beast (Revelation 14:11).

There is no assurance that those are the only ones. There is only the warning that such will be the punishment of Satan, the Antichrist, the false prophet, and those who take the Mark of the Beast.

Therefore, all we can know from this verse is that SOME men, at least, will suffer eternity in torment.

Let's take this a step further.
Since we know that SOME will suffer so... then what is to say that others will not?

In fact, Jesus said that if we refuse to forgive our brother from the heart, that our Father in Heaven will turn us over to the tormenters, until our entire debt of sin is paid.

As if a sinful being suffering in hell could ever completely pay a debt. It took the death of the perfect son of God to pay that debt!

Which means an unforgiving person will suffer torment eternally.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

There is no assurance that those are the only ones. There is only the warning that such will be the punishment of Satan, the Antichrist, the false prophet, and those who take the Mark of the Beast.

Therefore, all we can know from this verse is that SOME men, at least, will suffer eternity in torment.

Let's take this a step further.
Since we know that SOME will suffer so... then what is to say that others will not?

In fact, Jesus said that if we refuse to forgive our brother from the heart, that our Father in Heaven will turn us over to the tormenters, until our entire debt of sin is paid.

As if a sinful being suffering in hell could ever completely pay a debt. It took the death of the perfect son of God to pay that debt!

Which means an unforgiving person will suffer torment eternally.

But if we take it literally, it indicates an end to the period of torment. Yes, the atonement provided by the sacrificial death of Christ is infinite. However, the Bible indicates that we will pay for our own sins, if we turn our backs on His gracious provision. The Bible indicates that there are different types of sin--those of the flesh, the world and the Devil. All are covered under the Blood of Christ of course, but perhaps there are different levels of punishment for those who refuse His gracious gift. Jesus indicated that there were different levels of punishment--that some would be given "few stripes" and that some would be given "many stripes". Something to think about.

 

[aiki]

My view of Jesus is not a gloomy, preachy, solemn, legalistic fellow.

I don't see him this way, either. Though, the Bible does paint a pretty grim picture of him. See Isaiah 53.

He almost had to be gregarious and pleasant to be around and fun to be with or he wouldn't have been as popular as he was. I see him as full of light and loving and laughing.

Popular? In what sense? Well-loved? People followed him in great hordes because he was healing them and because its cool to see miracles performed. Sometimes he even gave them food to eat. Does this count as popularity? Of a sort, I suppose. Well-loved? Meh. Not so much. He was crucified in the end, you know.

Jesus was full of light. Was he a high-humored fellow, laughing all the time? Not if Scripture is to be trusted. He was, according to the Bible, "despised" and a "man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." The apostle John wrote that Christ "came unto his own and his own received him not." We certainly never read of Jesus joking around or regaling his audiences with funny stories. Instead, his parables were full of warnings and confusing spiritual references. Nothing in Scripture even hints that Jesus was a sanguine sort, drawing crowds of fun seekers after him, a popular fellow among the Jews.

I strongly believe in salvation by grace, and I am not one to insist that everybody see and understand anything of scriptures in exactly the same way.

You belie your claim to believe strongly in salvation by grace when in the next moment you declare that there is nothing in Scripture you would insist upon. How strongly can you really believe something you think the next person can ignore - especially when it comes to the matter of salvation? Certainly, Jesus didn't take your loose view of truth. He stands sharply in contrast to you, in fact, preaching a very exclusivistic and singular way to God:

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Hi aiki,

The problem with "truth' is that there are many "truths" floating around claiming to be "true" which makes it hard to determine the true truth. I know this sound silly but it is true. Too many people tend to believe in a truth that fits their views even if it is clearly false.

This is why a thorough knowledge of the Bible is so vital to the Christian faith. The better one knows one's Bible, the better able they are to sift through and challenge all the nonsense and falsehood floating around the Christian community these days. The Bible is not nearly so open to wide interpretation as people think. Especially on the basic, central truths of the faith, the Bible is crystal clear and explicit.

Selah.

 

[Greg Merrill]

I don't see him this way, either. Though, the Bible does paint a pretty grim picture of him. See Isaiah 53.



Popular? In what sense? Well-loved? People followed him in great hordes because he was healing them and because its cool to see miracles performed. Sometimes he even gave them food to eat. Does this count as popularity? Of a sort, I suppose. Well-loved? Meh. Not so much. He was crucified in the end, you know.

Jesus was full of light. Was he a high-humored fellow, laughing all the time? Not if Scripture is to be trusted. He was, according to the Bible, "despised" and a "man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." The apostle John wrote that Christ "came unto his own and his own received him not." We certainly never read of Jesus joking around or regaling his audiences with funny stories. Instead, his parables were full of warnings and confusing spiritual references. Nothing in Scripture even hints that Jesus was a sanguine sort, drawing crowds of fun seekers after him, a popular fellow among the Jews.



You belie your claim to believe strongly in salvation by grace when in the next moment you declare that there is nothing in Scripture you would insist upon. How strongly can you really believe something you think the next person can ignore - especially when it comes to the matter of salvation? Certainly, Jesus didn't take your loose view of truth. He stands sharply in contrast to you, in fact, preaching a very exclusivistic and singular way to God:

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Selah.

Somehow, 2 Corinthians 11:4 should be consider where it speaks about "another Jesus". We need to be careful that we don't create and then hold to our own ideas of Jesus. Outside of the Bible, there are few references as old as the original writings of the New Testament that refer to Jesus (Josephus being the only example that I can give, though there are others.) So we need to get our "picture" of Him from what God has revealed of Him in Scripture. That is quite a bit, seeing Jesus is the theme that runs throughout. In Luke 24:27 Jesus speaks of the many Scriptures that refer to Him in the Old Testament. Yes, He was "a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief" Isaiah 53. He had his moments of levity, balanced with much that was serious. Let us all be careful not to attribute to Him that which has no basis from the authority of Scripture.

 

[aiki]

For instance I would be really disappointed if heaven was wearing filmy robes and floating around on clouds strumming harps. That might be fun for a few minutes, but. . ..

And then I think what would be heaven. For me, as well as I can imagine it, it would be loving people that were glad to see you and you them. It would be having something rewarding and useful to do that made us happy doing it. And it would have dogs and horses and beauty to behold. And cotton candy, pizza, popcorn, and barbqued ribs would be nice too.

You know what's glaringly absent in your description here? God. But it is He who makes heaven heavenly. He is what makes being in heaven worth it. King David understood this, he understood the centrality of God, not just to the existence of heaven, but to its beauty, joy and delight. So it was that he wrote of God, "Whom have I in heaven but you?" Candy, pizza, bbq ribs, dogs, horses - these are earthly, temporal things, pale, fading shadows of the infinite and awesome pleasure of fellowship with God. They are self-centered things, oriented toward pleasing and gratifying you. But heaven isn't about you. God's kingdom isn't about you. All of heaven and earth is about God. You're going to be powerfully disappointed, then, if you get to heaven expecting it to be party time, an eternal vacation in paradise with your friends and family. All of heaven is absorbed with God. He is praised there; He is lifted up; He is adored; He is the point of heaven. Does that turn your crank? Does that thrill your heart? If it doesn't, heaven is really gonna' suck for you.

Selah.

 

[Greg Merrill]

You know what's glaringly absent in your description here? God. But it is He who makes heaven heavenly. He is what makes being in heaven worth it. King David understood this, he understood the centrality of God, not just to the existence of heaven, but to its beauty, joy and delight. So it was that he wrote of God, "Whom have I in heaven but you?" Candy, pizza, bbq ribs, dogs, horses - these are earthly, temporal things, pale, fading shadows of the infinite and awesome pleasure of fellowship with God. They are self-centered things, oriented toward pleasing and gratifying you. But heaven isn't about you. God's kingdom isn't about you. All of heaven and earth is about God. You're going to be powerfully disappointed, then, if you get to heaven expecting it to be party time, an eternal vacation in paradise with your friends and family. All of heaven is absorbed with God. He is praised there; He is lifted up; He is adored; He is the point of heaven. Does that turn your crank? Does that thrill your heart? If it doesn't, heaven is really gonna' suck for you.

Selah.

I like what you say, except for the last sentence. Heaven isn't going to be bad for anyone, and no one will be disappointed, because God is going to prepare us, change us, to allow us to enjoy it, as well as not think of things that would distract us from that enjoyment. Isaiah 65:16-17 and Revelation 21:4.

 

[aiki]

You are really working hard to make this about an under-reaction to sin, rather than an interpretation issue. That puts a halt to any constructive discussion. I get it. You are the righteous one. Sadly, I cannot find an ounce of compassion in your writing.

Can you show me from Scripture where my statements go wrong? The Bible is really clear about our sinful depravity and how it blinds and deafens us to the truth. This isn't a pleasant reality to ponder, I agree, but drawing attention to it doesn't make me "the righteous one." Suggesting I'm motivated by self-righteousness is a nifty deflection, though, a neat way to justify a wholesale dismissal of the uncomfortable truths to which I've pointed.

"And I don't know a soul who ever chose to know and love God or receive His blessings and grace by being told he/she was going to hell."

The problem with trying to establish a general state of affairs by ancedote or personal experience is that you can only ultimately speak for yourself. My experience does not agree with Foxfyre's. I know many people who have to come to faith in Christ, prompted by a fear of God's eternal punishment. God uses both the carrot and the stick to save us. Nothing makes this clearer than the Gospel.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

I like what you say, except for the last sentence. Heaven isn't going to be bad for anyone, and no one will be disappointed, because God is going to prepare us, change us, to allow us to enjoy it, as well as not think of things that would distract us from that enjoyment. Isaiah 65:16-17 and Revelation 21:4.

Amen. Because what you say is true, I used the word "if" at the beginning of the sentence. Hopefully, by the time Foxfyre stands before God, his/her understanding of the joy of heaven will have greatly altered and he/she will rejoice with the rest of us to see his/her Maker face-to-face.

Selah.

 

[HereIStand]

Hell is sadly forever. If we believe in the authority of Christ, then we have to trust in Him, especially on difficult doctrines like hell. If we look away from Christ and His authority, it's quite easy to rationalize away the eternity and the sufferings of hell. No one is helped by this, least of all the rationalizer.

 

[Ringo84]

Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

I think that I have serious doubts about the concept of an eternal hell. If it exists, it is the most inhumane and horrible penalties one could ever face: burning and being tortured for the rest of time and beyond.
Ringo