The Eternality of Hell

[Bible Highlighter]

So a child who is raised Muslim in Syria, under the ravages of war, and never knows Christ, goes straight to hell when they are killed by a bomb exploding through his/her house?

I believe children who do not yet have the capacity to fully understand morality yet are not going to thrown in hell. They will go to be with God in paradise. However, if they are a little older and they reject Christ (fully being aware of right and wrong), then that is a different matter. As for people who are not aware of the gospel: I believe anyone who is truly and honestly seeking God for real, the Lord will send His messengers to them to preach the gospel for their ears to hear about it. For Corniulus who feared God received a messenger from the Lord. His name was Peter.


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[Colter]

Ah, so ECT is out then. That is good. However, I do disagree that God cannot temporarily torment (punish) a person for the sins that they committed here on this Earth because it would be contrary to what we know about justice. For we see in this world of how punishment (according to justice) even in our real world makes sense. For if prisons were fun filled candy lands than that would make people want to do bad things. Most people really do not want to go to prison because they know these are bad places to be in. If there was no fear of being punished by going to prison, then more people would be more likely to do the wrong thing. For example: If a person lived on a holodeck, they could do whatever they want with no real consequences. They can do all sorts of things their dark heart desires there without really hurting anybody except God and themselves.


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God offers rehabilitation to the repentant.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

It's kind of weird isn't it? Some on this thread pray for truth and guidance from the Holy spirit and state that there is no hell. Others, like yourself, do the same thing and state there definitely is hell, but its not eternal, and still others, who are seeking truth and praying for guidance from the Holy spirit, say hell is eternal. So which is it? You say the scripture reveals truth and yet there are 3 different positions from people who all claim to know the truth. All 3 positions are found in scripture, so how do we reconcile them?
I'd say the best way to start is with the one truth we do know and can agree upon:
That Christ died to save us from our sins. The Good News.

Actually, it seems that all three are true.

Some, such as Satan and his evil angels, the Antichrist and the False Prophet and those who take the Mark of the Beast, will face eternal punishment. Their's is a devastating evil that must be confined and destroyed continuously and there will be no possible escape from the Lake of Fire. It is important to remember that angels live forever--they are not mortals. The evil angels who are confined in the "bottomless pit" are still alive and just waiting to be released (perhaps they already have been). Those foolish men and women who voluntarily take the Mark of the Beast will likely be enticed by the idea of immortality--which may be the promised result. They will have missed the "small print" which tells them that they will gain immortality but that just means living forever in horrific punishment and eternal death. They could have had eternal life with Father God and the Lamb and they will learn, to their chagrin, that they could have chosen that instead of Satan's way.

Those who are just "ordinary" ignorant mortals and prone to be fleshly and worldly because of this world, which is dominated by Satan will likely be granted some measure of mercy. Jesus begged the Father to "Forgive them for they know not what they do." And we have no reason to believe that the Father would deny that prayer--that they will not be given the mercy of oblivion after their punishment is done. They will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire--the Second Death.

Finally, there is, of course, no punishment at all for believers. The Roman Catholic notion of purgatory is nonsensical. One will either be in heaven or not--no matter what kind of sin has been forgiven under the Blood of Christ. The so-called "thief on the cross" (actually, it is likely that he was some kind of political zealot who had, perhaps, murdered Romans) said he and the criminal on the third cross deserved to die--unlike Jesus. He was told by Jesus that he would be in Paradise after his death--not, purgatory. The notion of "purgatory" is saying that the Blood of Jesus is insufficient to pay for any and all sin and is quite blasphemous.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

God offers rehabilitation to the repentant.

Yes--He most certainly does--but only in this mortal life. We have been granted grace and mercy because of our ignorance and weakness. But for those, such as evil angels, who knowingly chose to follow Satan, (they undoubtedly knew what they were doing) there will be no mercy. They will be tormented forever and ever as will the mortal humans who take the Mark of the Beast. I believe that those foolish humans will be tempted to take the Mark because they will be lured with the idea of achieving immortality by the indwelling presence of Satan. Satan loves to counterfeit and mock God, in addition to destroying what God has created and called good.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

So a child who is raised Muslim in Syria, under the ravages of war, and never knows Christ, goes straight to hell when they are killed by a bomb exploding through his/her house?

No, all babies and young children go to be with Jesus immediately after death--He said that heaven is comprised of such innocents. That is why He told His followers to be like innocent children and sternly warned all to avoid leading children into sin or being unkind to them. The Blood of Jesus is mighty to save. Of the likely 12 billion people who have already lived and died, a majority of them likely died in infancy or young childhood. Heaven holds them and blesses them.

 

[Foxfyre]

Its very simple, those who completely reject life eternal will not awake from the sleep of death. Upon the judgment they will be destroyed. No pain, no ongoing sadistic punishment. Sad but just.

"Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see death.”

It may indeed be that way. It would fit my sense of justice. But I just imagine though that we all are are to be really surprised at how wrong we got a lot of things when we step out of this life into the next.

 

[claninja]

No, all babies and young children go to be with Jesus immediately after death--He said that heaven is comprised of such innocents. That is why He told His followers to be like innocent children and sternly warned all to avoid leading children into sin or being unkind to them. The Blood of Jesus is mighty to save. Of the likely 12 billion people who have already lived and died, a majority of them likely died in infancy or young childhood. Heaven holds them and blesses them.

So is it better to die as an infant or young, not knowing Christ, than to come to adult hood where one has the chance to reject Christ or not even hear of His name?

 

[Foxfyre]

Ah, so ECT is out then. That is good. However, I do disagree that God cannot temporarily torment (punish) a person for the sins that they committed here on this Earth because it would be contrary to what we know about justice. For we see in this world of how punishment (according to justice) even in our real world makes sense. For if prisons were fun filled candy lands than that would make people want to do bad things. Most people really do not want to go to prison because they know these are bad places to be in. If there was no fear of being punished by going to prison, then more people would be more likely to do the wrong thing. For example: If a person lived on a holodeck, they could do whatever they want with no real consequences. They can do all sorts of things their dark heart desires there without really hurting anybody except God and themselves.
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This also may be the way it is, but I rather think that God created a perfect world that has been gradually spoiled via collective sin ever since he put us here. If we were perfectly in tune with what God wanted of us, the world would still be perfect. But since we are not we suffer the consequences of doing things our way for good or bad. So it isn't God who punishes us but we who are punished by sin.

I see sin as that which harms us and/or others either now or on down the line. Either obviously to us now or cumulatively over time. If we toss down our peach pit it will be hardly noticed--minimal harm. But thousands/millions throwing their trash to the ground turns the landscape into an ugly mess. The reason that sin is bad and therefore God is against it is because it hurts us. Because it spoils his perfect creation.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

So is it better to die as an infant or young, not knowing Christ, than to come to adult hood where one has the chance to reject Christ or not even hear of His name?

It does occur to one that it might be better for some individuals--instead of living long enough to choose Satan's way. In heaven, the souls of babies and young children will indeed live on in heavenly bliss. But we adults are told that we will have jobs to do in heaven and that seeking the Kingdom should be a great goal. Those who truly belong to Christ long to serve Him--both here and in the world to come.

 

[aiki]

In Defense Of The Doctrine Of Eternal, Conscious Torment In Hell. | Christian Forums

 

[claninja]

It does occur to one that it might be better for some individuals--instead of living long enough to choose Satan's way. In heaven, the souls of babies and young children will indeed live on in heavenly bliss. But we adults are told that we will have jobs to do in heaven and that seeking the Kingdom should be a great goal. Those who truly belong to Christ long to serve Him--both here and in the world to come.

Interesting

 

[SarahsKnight]

In Isaiah 66, they are carcases. Carcases are lifeless dead bodies. So the saints are not watching people screaming alive, etc.


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But it seems a few people want to believe that the corpses in Isaiah 66 are still alive and writhing and screaming in pain. Apparently that is their idea of Heaven. Pretty sick, really.

I cannot imagine for a single second being considered a saint in Heaven and yet just watching someone far off being in some kind of perpetual torment, without balking.

 

[claninja]

Actually, it seems that all three are true.

Some, such as Satan and his evil angels, the Antichrist and the False Prophet and those who take the Mark of the Beast, will face eternal punishment. Their's is a devastating evil that must be confined and destroyed continuously and there will be no possible escape from the Lake of Fire. It is important to remember that angels live forever--they are not mortals. The evil angels who are confined in the "bottomless pit" are still alive and just waiting to be released (perhaps they already have been). Those foolish men and women who voluntarily take the Mark of the Beast will likely be enticed by the idea of immortality--which may be the promised result. They will have missed the "small print" which tells them that they will gain immortality but that just means living forever in horrific punishment and eternal death. They could have had eternal life with Father God and the Lamb and they will learn, to their chagrin, that they could have chosen that instead of Satan's way.

Those who are just "ordinary" ignorant mortals and prone to be fleshly and worldly because of this world, which is dominated by Satan will likely be granted some measure of mercy. Jesus begged the Father to "Forgive them for they know not what they do." And we have no reason to believe that the Father would deny that prayer--that they will not be given the mercy of oblivion after their punishment is done. They will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire--the Second Death.

Finally, there is, of course, no punishment at all for believers. The Roman Catholic notion of purgatory is nonsensical. One will either be in heaven or not--no matter what kind of sin has been forgiven under the Blood of Christ. The so-called "thief on the cross" (actually, it is likely that he was some kind of political zealot who had, perhaps, murdered Romans) said he and the criminal on the third cross deserved to die--unlike Jesus. He was told by Jesus that he would be in Paradise after his death--not, purgatory. The notion of "purgatory" is saying that the Blood of Jesus is insufficient to pay for any and all sin and is quite blasphemous.

Don't necessarily agree with all of this, but the highlighted I absolutely agree with you!

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

But it seems a few people want to believe that the corpses in Isaiah 66 are still alive and writhing and screaming in pain. Apparently that is their idea of Heaven. Pretty sick, really.

I cannot imagine for a single second being considered a saint in Heaven and yet just watching someone far off being in some kind of perpetual torment, without balking.

And yet the martyred souls in heaven cry out for God to take His vengeance on those who brutalized them. If a relative of yours had been tortured to death, you might feel differently toward those who committed the murder. The ancient Israelites had seen their families tortured to death by the enemies of God. They were not apt to want the perpetrators to get off easily. The background of the Book of Jonah was the absolute cruelty which the Assyrians (Nineveh was their capitol city) unleashed on the Israelites. Jonah was quite angry with God for insisting that Jonah preach to them and that they were granted repentance. He wanted them to suffer as the Israelites had suffered.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

But it seems a few people want to believe that the corpses in Isaiah 66 are still alive and writhing and screaming in pain. Apparently that is their idea of Heaven. Pretty sick, really.

I cannot imagine for a single second being considered a saint in Heaven and yet just watching someone far off being in some kind of perpetual torment, without balking.

In any case, Isaiah 66 is apparently speaking of a feature of the Temple in the Millennial Kingdom (since there is no Temple in the Eternal State). The Millennial Kingdom will be peopled by mortals (albeit with much longer, healthier life--see Isaiah 65:20). Satan will be bound throughout most of the Millennial Kingdom--only to be released right at the end to go out and "deceive the nations" once more.

Isaiah taught a lot on the Millennial Kingdom. Since it was the most common scroll (other than the first five books of the Mosaic Law) that circulated in the days immediately preceding the advent of Christ. The people were anticipating the arrival of the Messiah since there had been no prophet in Israel for the previous four centuries. It was assumed that He would come as a conquering King--not the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah 53 nor the innocent "Lamb of God". That is why the Jewish authorities, for the most part, did not recognize who He was. The sages had spoken of TWO Messiahs--Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David instead of ONE Messiah who came twice--first as the Suffering Servant and then as the Righteous King.

 

[SarahsKnight]

And yet the martyred souls in heaven cry out for God to take vengeance on those who brutalized them. If a relative of yours had been tortured to death, you might feel differently toward those who committed the murder. The ancient Israelites had seen their families tortured to death by the enemies of God.

Vengeance in the form of their death, i.e. the extinguishing of their lives as conditionalists like myself view death? Perhaps I would wish that in my carnal, human nature, although I imagine Jesus Himself would not want for me to feel that way, to be consumed with anger and vengeance. And as for those Israelites who saw their families tortured to death by their enemies, at least said enemies eventually killed their victims instead of prolonging their conscious pain and suffering to an infinite length, right? So, shall I have an attitude of greater vengeance and sadism than even that of my hate-filled enemies? Not if I do not wish to be ashamed of how I am representing Christ my good Savior before unbelieving men.

Jonah was quite angry with God for insisting that Jonah preach to them and that they were granted repentance. He wanted them to suffer as the Israelites had suffered.

Yes, Jonah did. You are right. But God did not exactly approve of Jonah's attitude at that time, did He?

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Vengeance in the form of their death, i.e. the extinguishing of their lives as conditionalists like myself view death? Perhaps I would wish that in my carnal, human nature, although I imagine Jesus Himself would not want for me to feel that way, to be consumed with anger and vengeance. And as for those Israelites who saw their families tortured to death by their enemies, at least said enemies eventually killed their victims instead of prolonging their conscious pain and suffering to an infinite length, right? So, shall I have an attitude of greater vengeance and sadism than even that of my hate-filler enemies? Not if I do not wish to be ashamed of how I am representing Christ my good Savior before unbelieving men.





Yes, Jonah did. You are right. But God did not exactly approve of Jonah's attitude at that time, did He?

The Bible often reported events, in the history of the Israelites, of which God does not approve. In the Millennial Kingdom of mortals, sin will not be unknown, as the Isaiah 65 passage shows.

 

[SarahsKnight]

The Bible often reported events in the history of the Israelites of which God does not approve.

I agree with that.

 

[Colter]

Yes--He most certainly does--but only in this mortal life. We have been granted grace and mercy because of our ignorance and weakness. But for those, such as evil angels, who knowingly chose to follow Satan, (they undoubtedly knew what they were doing) there will be no mercy. They will be tormented forever and ever as will the mortal humans who take the Mark of the Beast. I believe that those foolish humans will be tempted to take the Mark because they will be lured with the idea of achieving immortality by the indwelling presence of Satan. Satan loves to counterfeit and mock God, in addition to destroying what God has created and called good.

Love isn't secondary to anything in the divine nature. If a deity tormented one of his children for an eternity there would be something really mean is such a God.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Love isn't secondary to anything in the divine nature. If a deity tormented one of his children for an eternity there would be something really mean is such a God.

The justice of God and thus the order of the universe would be upset if devils who absolutely hate Him, were allowed to escape their just punishment. Justice in this world or the next is a part of God's love. It is Satan and those who follow him who are unjust and full of hate--both for God and man.