The elect

Hammster said:

It is actually more. Just because Israel was God’s chosen people, it doesn’t minimize the personal language Paul uses. So you cannot dismiss one because of the other.

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I understand and that's interesting. Because, in my head, that would be what you are doing. You are minimizing the OT language toward Israel as if it doesn't mean the same thing.

Michael Collum said:

So are the elect like that group of people at the prayer meeting who decide who's saved and who's not? I Mean, how do they know who isn't saved? Did they vote? Sometimes saved people appear on the list and it is confusing.

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The elect are the ones who have sincerely accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Romans 10

11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

It's not up to humans to decided or discern who is and is not saved ... we are not to judge others, judging is done by Jesus and him alone.

John 5:22

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son

Romans 10:9-10

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

I would encourage you to study His Holy Word and learn about Him. Amen

FenderTL5 said:

I understand and that's interesting. Because, in my head, that would be what you are doing. You are minimizing the OT language toward Israel as if it doesn't mean the same thing.

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Where have I done that? Where have I stayed that Israel is not elect?

eleos1954 said:

The elect are the ones who have sincerely accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Romans 10

11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

It's not up to humans to decided or discern who is and is not saved ... we are not to judge others, judging is done by Jesus and him alone.

John 5:22

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son

Romans 10:9-10

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

I would encourage you to study His Holy Word and learn about Him. Amen

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Who does the choosing?

Hammster said:

Where have I done that? Where have I stayed that Israel is not elect?

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You didn't state it it outright but more in principle. Unless that I misunderstood your intent/introduction of the 'idea' concept earlier.
Just as "Israel" is those believing and obeying while looking forward to the promised one from their ranks, the elect are those believing and obeying in the fulfillment of the promise in Jesus Christ. It's both an idea and a personal thing. It is an idea up until the point it becomes personal when one decides to believe, take up their cross and follow.

FenderTL5 said:

You didn't state it it outright but more in principle. Unless that I misunderstood your intent/introduction of the 'idea' concept earlier.
Just as "Israel" is those believing and obeying while looking forward to the promised one from their ranks, the elect are those believing and obeying in the fulfillment of the promise in Jesus Christ. It's both an idea and a personal thing. It is an idea up until the point it becomes personal when one decides to believe, take up their cross and follow.

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Israel wasn’t Israel because of belief. They were Israel because they were chosen.

Hammster said:

I guess you have a thread in scripture to back up that theory.

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well no, but perhaps I should, nah a waste of time

Michael Collum said:

The passages indicate How God Chooses everyone who believes in Jesus. Since the narrative was written to an audience who wasn't there/eyewitnesses, it would seem to imply it applies to all believers.

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What's the point of all this talk of election in Scripture if we are really the ones who elect ourselves?

The Message (MSG):
Luke 3: 7-9: “Brood of snakes! What do you think you’re doing slithering down here to the river? Do you think a little water on your snakeskins is going to deflect God’s judgment? It’s your life that must change, not your skin. And don’t think you can pull rank by claiming Abraham as ‘father.’ Being a child of Abraham is neither here nor there—children of Abraham are a dime a dozen. God can make children from stones if he wants. What counts is your life. Is it green and blossoming? Because if it’s deadwood, it goes on the fire.”

Michael Collum said:

So are the elect like that group of people at the prayer meeting who decide who's saved and who's not? I Mean, how do they know who isn't saved? Did they vote? Sometimes saved people appear on the list and it is confusing.

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In the non-Calvinist view, the elect are simply the remnant Jew and the grafted Gentile. Those who do the "will of the Father".
Blessings

Deleted.

Michael Collum said:

So are the elect like that group of people at the prayer meeting who decide who's saved and who's not? I Mean, how do they know who isn't saved? Did they vote? Sometimes saved people appear on the list and it is confusing.

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redleghunter said:

What is Calvinist doctrine of predestination?

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The doctrine of election, is tied to the doctrine of total depravity, I would recommend you speak with a reformed Clergyman.

Michael Collum said:

I don't think the church's perception of reality is law, but people do treat it that way sometimes. I appreciate your straightforward manner of addressing the topic.

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It might be enriching to the conversation if you could clarify some of your words here:

1. What do you mean by "the church"?
2. What do you mean by "the church's perception of reality"?
3. Do you have specific issues in mind?

The OP begins with what (I think) is a sarcastic and cartoonish portrayal of a secret group of "choosers" in a back room somewhere. Is this your experience? If not, what motivated you to post?

One useful way to dive in to the topic apart from denominational trappings is to go to an online bible tool and compare passages that use the words "elect" "predestined" "chose" "chosen" "holy" etc., in other words, terms that denote a setting apart for a purpose.

Jonaitis said:

I don't understand how some are okay with the thought that God chose certain people for certain blessings in the Old Testament (Isaac, not Ishmael; Jacob, not Esau) but has serious problems with God choosing certain individuals for salvation. Sure, they represented groups, but they were individuals too...

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The nation of Israel was chosen (elected) for a very special task, but along with greater blessings does this nation also have greater responsibilities? (the more that is given the more that is expected of them?)

How good of a job did Israel do?

Does the fact God could work better with Jacob (even though Jacob started out being a reprobate) mean Esau went to hell in the end? When deity talks about hate (like we are to hate our own family) does not mean you cannot also Love the one you are hating and do for them like you would do for your family.

The problem is not with selecting people for some special purpose like the Israelites, which not all in the group selected will fulfill, but extrapolating the group to saying all the group was elected to go to heaven and the rest on mankind was not selected to go to heaven and thus go to hell.

God does select individuals and not tribes of people to go to heaven and has told us the individuals selected are the ones who accepted His charity (Christ crucified/mercy/grace/Love/forgiveness).

Jonaitis said:

He was hoping that someone would make his blood redemptive...that someone would believe...smh

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Christ did not die for some idea or for just the elect.

Christ died because of who Christ is and God allowed Christ to die because of whom God is. It does not “change” God or Christ if no one accepts this ransom payment, since Christ is doing this while we are yet sinners and every mature adult starts out a sinner, Christ goes to the cross for everyone.

Christ and God are Lovers, just like the father in the prodigal son story, if the son does not return the Father would still eagerly wait showing his love for the son if he returns or not.

If a love for another is to get something than it is not unconditional and unselfish.

HTacianas said:

Which leaves us at the original question: Who are the elect?

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Me and a few million others that we'll meet when we see through the glass better on the other side of this life.

My claim to be one of the elect is based on my being convinced that God is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day. I have entrusted my eternal state to Him based on resting fully on the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary on my behalf and abandoning all other means of achieving a justified state before Him including any works I may do - whether I claim that those works are from myself only or from cooperation with God in this life.

I can't speak for you of course. But I sincerely hope you are among the elect as well.

As far as my conversations with Orthodox Christians here and my research into Orthodox beliefs goes - it appears that you don't claim to be "saved" now but see salvation as a life process.

While evangelical Christians agree as to the ongoing sanctification process through cooperation with the Holy Spirit being part of "salvation" just as do Orthodox Christians - the difference is in the evangelical faith that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit against the wrath of the final judgment already. That adoption as sons comes at the moment we believe on the finished work of Christ in a saving way and are justified before God for eternity gaining an advocate before God for when we sin, as we surely will.

Whether God considers the process of "cooperating with God" to attain salvation that the Orthodox so often speak about as "justifying faith" or whether He considers it a form of works salvation and therefore "another gospel" - which is really no gospel at all" - only time will tell.

I hold a hope that all who name the Name of Christ will be saved in spite of not preaching the simple gospel I have believed in and which I consider essential. That includes the cults and the Roman church as well as Orthodoxy.

My prayer is that they will not be found wanting when they point to their various religious rituals or their exemplary life and obedience to God in order to be justified before God.

I hope to see you among the elect gathered around the throne of God on the other side of this life.

I would advise everyone to cooperate with God in working out your salvation in the overall sense. But I would also advise anyone who thinks that their success at cooperating with God plays any part in their justification before God to abandon any such addition to the doctrine of salvation by faith in the finished work of Christ at Calvary.

If you will not humble yourself and do so - you may well find that you are not among the justified elect when you meet God face to face - no matter how exemplary your life while living in this world may have been.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

So the body of believers is elected, but not the individuals? The individuals are identified by being in the body, and the substance of the body is its individuals. The only thing he would have elected is that there will happen to be some unspecified number of individuals who have faith, and even that could not be guaranteed unless at least one individual was elected.



If it is impersonal, then it goes back to his earlier point that you seem to think that God elected an idea. Your position seems vague to the point of not being meaningful, to me.

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I agree with you there. To me it is manipulation of terminology to produce an idea that doesn't actually follow. For God to do the final effect, he effects the small causes that produce it.

For example, I believe that when he created this whole universe, multiverse, whatever, he not only invented the principles by which it operates and is governed, but he made the smallest particle of matter/energy --maybe even their very essence is derived in him (I like to think "his love" is a very physical thing that may even be that essence).

God is a micromanager, I say, because if not, he is not a macromanager either.

But on top of all that, we have many evidences from Scripture that the individual as well as the whole body of believers is elect.

Here is one good treatment on the question:

https://credohouse.org/blog/eleven-...ut-individual-election-not-cooperate-election

SinoBen said:

"The elect" is not equivalent to "the saved".

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Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Silverback said:

The doctrine of election, is tied to the doctrine of total depravity, I would recommend you speak with a reformed Clergyman.

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I was questioning the understanding of the poster.

friend of said:

It's very reminiscent of John 15 actually. Christ is speaking about individuals in John 15.

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It’s reminiscent but not the same depiction.

The only thing in common are grapes.