danielmears

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Obviously God can see the entire time continuum. This is apparent when you you look at prophecy because then we can see that the Father already knows the future. But, we do not, so it is up to us to stay on the narrow path. For the scriptures tell us that God is, longsuffering, waiting for us to turn to Him. God is love, so He certainly wants the best for us all. Our job is to realize the Father is real, incline our ear to his word, get it in us, love God and one another, so we may be one! Glory to God, it is all so amazing!
 
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So are the elect like that group of people at the prayer meeting who decide who's saved and who's not? I Mean, how do they know who isn't saved? Did they vote? Sometimes saved people appear on the list and it is confusing.

Matthew 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mark 13:27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke 18:7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Romans 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

1 Timothy 5:21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2 John 1:1 The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

2 John 1:13 The children of your elect sister greet you.

Fausset's Bible Dictionary

ELECT or ELECTION: (See PREDESTINATION)
(1) Chosen to office (Act 9:15; Joh 6:70; 1Sa 10:24). ELECTION

(2) of Israel in the Old Testament as a nation, and of the visible Christian church, to spiritual privileges (Isa 45:4; Isa 44:1; 2Jo 1:3; 1Pe 5:18).

(3) Of Israel to temporal blessings in their own land, both formerly (Deu 7:6) and hereafter (Isa 65:9-22).

(4) Of saints, individually and personally, (Mat 20:16; Joh 6:44; Act 22:14) before the foundation of the world: to adoption (Eph 1:5); salvation, not without faith and holiness, but "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," for He who chose the end chose also the means (2Th 2:13); conformity to Christ (Rom 8:29); good works (Eph 2:10); spiritual warfare (2Ti 2:4); eternal glory (Rom 9:23). He chooses not merely character's, but individuals to whom He gives the needful characteristics, faith and obedience (Act 5:31; Eph 2:8), and writes them in the book of life (Luk 10:20; Phi 4:3; Joh 6:37; Joh 6:40). Believers may know it (1Th 1:4).

Exemplified in Isaac (Gen 21:12); Abraham (Neh 9:7; Hag 2:23); the apostles (Joh 13:18; Joh 15:16; Joh 15:19); Jacob (Rom 9:12-13); Paul (Gal 1:15). God's "grace was given in Christ Jesus (to the elect) before the world began" (2Ti 1:9). Its source is God's grace, independent of any goodness foreseen in the saved (Eph 1:4-5; Rom 9:11; Rom 9:18; Rom 11:5). The analogy of God's providence in this life choosing all our circumstances and final destination, and numbering the very hairs of our heads, illustrates the same method in His moral government (compare Joh 17:24; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; 1Th 5:9; 2Ti 2:10; 1Pe 1:2).

The election being entirely of grace, not for our foreseen works (Rom 11:6), the glory all redounds to God. The elect are given by the Father to Jesus as the fruit of His obedience unto death (Isa 53:10), that obedience itself being a grand part of the foreordained plan. Such a truth realized fills the heart with love and gratitude to God, humbling self, and "drawing up the mind to high and heavenly things" (Church of England, Article 17). Yet men are throughout Scripture treated as responsible, capable of will and choice. Christ died sufficiently for all, efficiently for the elect (1Ti 4:10; 1Jo 2:2). The lost will lay all the blame of their perdition on themselves because "they would not come to Jesus that they might have life"; the saved will ascribe all the praise of their salvation to God alone (Rev 1:5; Mat 22:12).
Strong's Dictionary

G1588 ἐκλεκτός eklektos (ek-lek-tos') adj.
1. select.
2. (by implication) favorite.
[from G1586]
KJV: chosen, elect
Root(s): G1586

Christians are people of the Book, and people of the Book believe they are in Christ and therefore elect in Christ. The Apostle Paul calls others than himself elect (in both the individual sense and the corporate/group sense), but the question which follows is, in Christ are we also Apostles? In the sense of followers of Jesus, yes, but in the sense of possessing Apostolic authority, I do not think so, although I do believe in the royal priesthood of believers (Hebrews Chapter 7) possessing a measure of authority. It is clear from Scripture we can make our calling and election sure. As for the election of others, I think it is best to preach the Gospel and leave the calling and electing up to God, He is the one who chooses, contrary to what so many Christian have been led to believe.
 
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bling

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What's the point of all this talk of election in Scripture if we are really the ones who elect ourselves?
You had an invitation to the banquet, so you are not a party crasher. The fact is not everyone invited to the banquet accepts the invitation.
 
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Jonaitis

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You had an invitation to the banquet, so you are not a party crasher. The fact is not everyone invited to the banquet accepts the invitation.

This is true, and so we read that many Jews who were the "invited" rejected the feast of the king, and he sought men who were not among the invited to come to the feast. :) I'm sorry, are we talking about a parable with a context?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The elect are the ones who have sincerely accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Romans 10

11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

It's not up to humans to decided or discern who is and is not saved ... we are not to judge others, judging is done by Jesus and him alone.

John 5:22

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son

Romans 10:9-10

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

I would encourage you to study His Holy Word and learn about Him. Amen
Asking a question is a way of teaching, I appreciate your participation.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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It might be enriching to the conversation if you could clarify some of your words here:
  1. What do you mean by "the church"?
  2. What do you mean by "the church's perception of reality"?
  3. Do you have specific issues in mind?
The OP begins with what (I think) is a sarcastic and cartoonish portrayal of a secret group of "choosers" in a back room somewhere. Is this your experience? If not, what motivated you to post?

One useful way to dive in to the topic apart from denominational trappings is to go to an online bible tool and compare passages that use the words "elect" "predestined" "chose" "chosen" "holy" etc., in other words, terms that denote a setting apart for a purpose.
When I wrote this I was undergoing some sanctification and I had a memory of a prayer meeting at a church where people were praying for people on a list who were determined by the group and one of the people listed I thought was saved.

What triggered this memory beyond the sanctification were threads and posts that indicated that certain people seemed to think it was their job to judge whether people were saved or not.

So I figured I'd ask a question. I'm glad I asked the question, it's been a good thread.

Blessings.
 
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Not David

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This is true, and so we read that many Jews who were the "invited" rejected the feast of the king, and he sought men who were not among the invited to come to the feast. :) I'm sorry, are we talking about a parable with a context?
And there was someone who was invited but wasn't well dressed and he was thrown into the darkness.
 
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redleghunter

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You had an invitation to the banquet, so you are not a party crasher. The fact is not everyone invited to the banquet accepts the invitation.
I believe the party crasher did not have the correct garment. Where did the others get their garment?
 
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anna ~ grace

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So, I have never really understood how and / or why Calvin decided to focus on those things that he focused on. I am sure it made sense to him. But I have found that some Christians, as they consider the ramifications of Calvin's theology, and how it might or might not pertain to them, can become anxious, wondering how they can be sure they are actually elect. And not a false believer, or one of those who only seemed to be elect. So, I just keep it simple. God has allowed me to figure a couple of things out, by His Mercy. One of them, is "trust in Christ, and follow Him". God helps us to do both, but we must also exercise faith and make an effort to follow. Like a mother helping her baby to walk. The baby won't make it anywhere without the Mother, but the baby also won't make it anywhere if he doesn't use his little legs. She holds him, he walks. That makes sense to me.
 
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Jonaitis

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So, I have never really understood how and / or why Calvin decided to focus on those things that he focused on. I am sure it made sense to him. But I have found that some Christians, as they consider the ramifications of Calvin's theology, and how it might or might not pertain to them, can become anxious, wondering how they can be sure they are actually elect. And not a false believer, or one of those who only seemed to be elect. So, I just keep it simple. God has allowed me to figure a couple of things out, by His Mercy. One of them, is "trust in Christ, and follow Him". God helps us to do both, but we must also exercise faith and make an effort to follow. Like a mother helping her baby to walk. The baby won't make it anywhere without the Mother, but the baby also won't make it anywhere if he doesn't use his little legs. She holds him, he walks. That makes sense to me.

He didn't see it the way you described. Rather, it was the opposite. He saw these doctrines as doctrines of grace in every way. We are helpless and lost, depraved and condemned, yet God who sees all these things loves his people despite them. There was nothing in them, from them, or about them that influenced his love for them. He loved them freely and independently from anything he would ever see in them. Predestination gives us the comfort, encouragement, and joy that our salvation was on God's part in us, for us, and apart from us. Sure, we must do something, but that cannot happen without God's grace efficaciously drawing and working in us to do what he wants. One of the most encouraging truths is that if God has so chosen us, apart from anything in us, then all the means to bring us into his kingdom, including our perseverance, depends entirely on his grace. We can be assured that if we believe and trust in Christ, he will never forsake us and leave us. We may sin grievously, but God always disciplines and brings his children back to repentance, but never once did he forsake them in it.

Some people don't see it like that...
 
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Ing Bee

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Christians are people of the Book

This is a bit of a bird walk, but why did you emply this phrase? Its a Muslim concept that, to my knowledge, is not found in the Bible. My mental hairs stood up when I read it because accepting this phrase in the context of gospel-sharing with Muslims can be counter-productive. The Q'uran employs it as a pre-emptive strike to legitimize Muhammed as a receiver of the "most correct book" (to borrow a Mormon phrase) and also to strike a common-cause with Jews and Christians. Food for thought.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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This is a bit of a bird walk, but why did you emply this phrase? Its a Muslim concept that, to my knowledge, is not found in the Bible. My mental hairs stood up when I read it because accepting this phrase in the context of gospel-sharing with Muslims can be counter-productive. The Q'uran employs it as a pre-emptive strike to legitimize Muhammed as a receiver of the "most correct book" (to borrow a Mormon phrase) and also to strike a common-cause with Jews and Christians. Food for thought.
The concept of being under the law and not by the spirit in the bible is very similar to "the people of the book are infidels" theme in the Quran.

.. which also became a people of the book.
 
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His student

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When I wrote this I was undergoing some sanctification and I had a memory of a prayer meeting at a church where people were praying for people on a list who were determined by the group and one of the people listed I thought was saved. What triggered this memory beyond the sanctification were threads and posts that indicated that certain people seemed to think it was their job to judge whether people were saved or not. So I figured I'd ask a question. I'm glad I asked the question, it's been a good thread. Blessings.
We all must make a determination as to which people we believe are not saved - if we are to participate in praying for salvation for anyone.

People who do not claim to be Christian can be assumed not to be saved even though we can't know for sure since we don't know everything that has happened in their life before. For instance - I don't think that my father was saved. But I can't be 100% sure since he may have received salvation in his youth and then just drifted away. (Let's not litigate the doctrine of OSAS here though.)

When it comes to those who name in some way the name of Christ (here in the forum for instance) we can and do make a fallible determination concerning their salvation as well. It's just quite a bit more difficult with people who claim to be Christians.

There are two criteria which we can use to determine our opinion as to whether or not they are saved.

The first is their life style. Obviously, here online, we are limited on what we know of that.

The second is doctrine - most particularly their view concerning what it takes to be saved and stay saved.

Imo - many here in this forum do not understand the basic concept of salvation by grace and resting solely in Christ's work at Calvary for their salvation.

In short - we have to make some kind of determination as to one's status or we will not pray for their salvation.

Nothing wrong with that. In fact - we are told to do exactly that.

I pray often for the salvation of those who preach the necessity of works as well as simple faith in order to be saved.

If they turn out to have been saved in the first place - I'll be more than happy for them when I meet them on the other side of this life.

But let's not disparage those who do their best to determine what they think the saved status is for various people. They usually do so for the purest of motives - the desire to pray for the salvation of those they fear are perishing.
 
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Ing Bee

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The concept of being under the law and not by the spirit in the bible is very similar to "the people of the book are infidels" theme in the Quran.

.. which also became a people of the book.

Indeed. Additionally, the counterpart to the Q'uran is not the Injeel (gospel) but Jesus himself: the Word of God that came down from heaven.

Ditching the "people of the book" terminology as a shared reality helps shift the conversation to the person of Jesus, someone whom Muslims revere and are both fascinated, curious, and confused by.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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But let's not disparage those who do their best to determine what they think the saved status is for various people. They usually do so for the purest of motives - the desire to pray for the salvation of those they fear are perishing.

It sounds good, but leads to a picture being painted where salvation is reliant on the church, instead of Jesus and the divine relationship.

good intentions are just that, they pave the roadway to hell.
 
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His student

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It sounds good, but leads to a picture being painted where salvation is reliant on the church, instead of Jesus and the divine relationship. good intentions are just that, they pave the roadway to hell.
NO - it leads only to people trying to determine as best they can the spiritual status of others they wish to pray for, and with the understanding that their determination may indeed be incorrect.

Unlike with Roman Catholicism and some other groups - salvation is not being awarded by the church.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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NO - it leads only to people trying to determine as best they can the spiritual status of others they wish to pray for, and with the understanding that their determination may indeed be incorrect.

Unlike with Roman Catholicism and some other groups - salvation is not being awarded by the church.
There was once this apple, it did not fall far from the tree .. it became a tree later on.
 
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