The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

[aiki]

The problem with Eternal Concious Torment relates to this in a way. I believe a person has to shut down their moral compass in order to believe in Eternal Concious Torment (ECT). They cannot explain the morality of ECT

This isn't true at all. With my moral compass quite intact, I have explained the morality of ECT to many people over the years. In fact, it is my belief that it is the sin of wicked humanity that blinds it to the justice of ECT in hell. Man is easy with sin, you see.

Jeremiah 17:9
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Romans 3:10-18
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Mark 7:20-23
20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

We humans are born into sin and live with and in it all of our lives. We hear of it in the news, entertain ourselves with it in books, and movies, and t.v. shows, and practice it constantly. We are all of us quite comfortable with our sin. Oh, we may respond with horror and censure to the serial killer, or the mass-murdering despot in some foreign country, but with our own sin we are very easy and have often come to love it dearly. And we tell ourselves that our sin of pride, or temper, or selfishness, or lust, or laziness, or gluttony, or whatever is not really sin - certainly not in comparison to the rapist, or pedophile, or assassin. Besides, how could something we love, something that feels so right and natural to us, possibly be truly wrong? Or we justify our sin by playing the victim, by calling our sin a disease, or blaming our upbringing or environment for our evil behaviour. With these attitudes toward their own wickedness powerfully informing their thinking, people come up against the perfect holiness and purity of God revealed in the Bible:

1 John 1:5
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4
3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

1 Samuel 2:2
2 "No one is holy like the Lord...

Exodus 15:11
11 "Who is like You, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like You, glorious in holiness, Fearful in praises, doing wonders?

Revelation 4:8
8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"

How supremely unlike us God is in this respect! There is not the tiniest particle of evil, of sin, in God. Not one. He has never been, is not, and never will be wicked or evil. For a sinful creature, trying to comprehend God's holiness is like a fish in the ocean trying to understand what it is like to live as a camel in the desert! The water in which the fish lives and moves is all around it and in it all the time. Water is life to the fish. So, too, sin to the human sinner. Sin is the daily companion of every human being and so much a part of the fabric of their living they do not even often see it for what it is. They certainly don't see sin as God sees it. They cannot.

It is no surprise, then, that sinners contemplating the eternal wrath of a perfectly holy God upon their sin are aghast at it. Surely, God is over-reacting! How can He be so extreme, so harsh, so severe, toward the sin in which they live and even often delight? But the Bible is very clear about hell and its terrible and eternal character. So, these same sinners begin to do with God's judgment what they do with their own sin: They rationalize, and philosophize, and even moralize (from a very human perspective) their way free of it. This involves convolutions of reason, contortions of Scripture, and a fundamental re-working of God's character.

What hell reveals to us, however, is just how much God hates sin and how awful our sin is. We see in the truth of ECT that our wickedness is not the delightful plaything we often make of it. Our sin has corrupted God's Creation. It is the source of all the pain, sorrow, disease and death that has fouled the good world God made. Sin has been the cause of war, of crime, of tyranny, of every one of the vile acts that have populated the grim and terrible history of humanity. Sin nailed Christ to the cross. Sin despises and takes advantage of his incredible, gracious, loving sacrifice. Sin defies the will and command of the Infinite, Almighty, Creator of the Universe. And so God HATES it and judges our sin with a fierceness and severity that frightens us.

Is hell, then, just the imagining of a person with a "broken moral compass." No, ECT in hell is the proper, righteous, and just punishment of God upon the vile evil of our sin. When we object to this terrible punishment, we reveal how little we understand God's holiness and our own sin and how broken our moral compass truly is.

Selah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This isn't true at all. With my moral compass quite intact, I have explained the morality of ECT to many people over the years. In fact, it is my belief that it is the sin of wicked humanity that blinds it to the justice of ECT in hell. Man is easy with sin, you see.

Jeremiah 17:9
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Romans 3:10-18
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Mark 7:20-23
20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

We humans are born into sin and live with and in it all of our lives. We hear of it in the news, entertain ourselves with it in books, and movies, and t.v. shows, and practice it constantly. We are all of us quite comfortable with our sin. Oh, we may respond with horror and censure to the serial killer, or the mass-murdering despot in some foreign country, but with our own sin we are very easy and have often come to love it dearly. And we tell ourselves that our sin of pride, or temper, or selfishness, or lust, or laziness, or gluttony, or whatever is not really sin - certainly not in comparison to the rapist, or pedophile, or assassin. Besides, how could something we love, something that feels so right and natural to us, possibly be truly wrong? Or we justify our sin by playing the victim, by calling our sin a disease, or blaming our upbringing or environment for our evil behaviour. With these attitudes toward their own wickedness powerfully informing their thinking, people come up against the perfect holiness and purity of God revealed in the Bible:

1 John 1:5
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4
3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

1 Samuel 2:2
2 "No one is holy like the Lord...

Exodus 15:11
11 "Who is like You, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like You, glorious in holiness, Fearful in praises, doing wonders?

Revelation 4:8
8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"

How supremely unlike us God is in this respect! There is not the tiniest particle of evil, of sin, in God. Not one. He has never been, is not, and never will be wicked or evil. For a sinful creature, trying to comprehend God's holiness is like a fish in the ocean trying to understand what it is like to live as a camel in the desert! The water in which the fish lives and moves is all around it and in it all the time. Water is life to the fish. So, too, sin to the human sinner. Sin is the daily companion of every human being and so much a part of the fabric of their living they do not even often see it for what it is. They certainly don't see sin as God sees it. They cannot.

It is no surprise, then, that sinners contemplating the eternal wrath of a perfectly holy God upon their sin are aghast at it. Surely, God is over-reacting! How can He be so extreme, so harsh, so severe, toward the sin in which they live and even often delight? But the Bible is very clear about hell and its terrible and eternal character. So, these same sinners begin to do with God's judgment what they do with their own sin: They rationalize, and philosophize, and even moralize (from a very human perspective) their way free of it. This involves convolutions of reason, contortions of Scripture, and a fundamental re-working of God's character.

What hell reveals to us, however, is just how much God hates sin and how awful our sin is. We see in the truth of ECT that our wickedness is not the delightful plaything we often make of it. Our sin has corrupted God's Creation. It is the source of all the pain, sorrow, disease and death that has fouled the good world God made. Sin has been the cause of war, of crime, of tyranny, of every one of the vile acts that have populated the grim and terrible history of humanity. Sin nailed Christ to the cross. Sin despises and takes advantage of his incredible, gracious, loving sacrifice. Sin defies the will and command of the Infinite, Almighty, Creator of the Universe. And so God HATES it and judges our sin with a fierceness and severity that frightens us.

Is hell, then, just the imagining of a person with a "broken moral compass." No, ECT in hell is the proper, righteous, and just punishment of God upon the vile evil of our sin. When we object to this terrible punishment, we reveal how little we understand God's holiness and our own sin and how broken our moral compass truly is.

Selah.

So then you have to agree that in certain cases it is okay that a dictator can torture a family for the rest of their lives in a very painful way for committing certain crimes as being just and fair. But such an idea of course apalls you. Surely sinful creatures cannot punish in such a way because they are not perfect like God, right? But in certain cases: Morality does not change regardless of who we are talking about here. Why? Because we are told repeatedly in Scripture to be like Christ in behavior. We are told to be Holy like God is Holy. Yes, I know. God says vengeance is mine and I will repay says the Lord. But even in the Old Testament, when God commanded His people to execute justice upon evil nations, God did not tell the Israelites to torture their enemies in the most horrible way possible for the rest of their lives (So as to show us a glimpse of the supposedly fair justice of Eternal Torment). Again, you assert that GOD's view of punishment is different than our judgment. We cannot possibly know such things. But God says in His Word that we are aware of right and wrong. For him to knows to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17). If somebody does evil against you, what does God tell you to do? Forgive them. Does not God send rain on the righteous and the unrighteous? Did not God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son? Did not Jesus ask the Father, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." ? This is the heart and character of God. He is forgiving and loving. For God's Word says, "God is love." It does not say that, "God is hate", too. That is what you make God out to be when you say that He will torture people beyond what the crime calls for. For even the Son asks God the Father to forgive. But you will not want to hear that. You have your ECT doctrine and it sounds like God to you. But it is not God. No, no. For God is love; And God is into forgiving. Yes, God will execute Judgment. But this will be fair and good judgment that we see in Luke 12:47-48. Again, Luke 12:47-48 should not exist in your Bible because it is contrary to the concept of Concious Torture of People in Flames For All Time. The saint can have the comfort in knowing that their unbelieving loved ones are roasting for all time as they live it up with GOD in His Kingdom. Sure sounds sick and saddistic, if you ask me. But believe whatever you like.


Side Note:

You also have taken Romans 3 out of context. This is not talking about faithful believers who have submitted or surrendered to Christ already (talking in the present tense). Yes, all people are sinners at one time in their life. But believers do not remain as sinners like they did as a part of their old life. They are new creatures in Christ. Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is talking about how we sinned at one point in our life (as a part of our old life). If you are to suggest otherwise then you have to also believe that faithful Christians do not have any understanding and they do not seek after God (Romans 3:11).


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[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

As for Jeremiah 17:9: This is why we need a new heart in being born again spiritually. We need to be transformed by God to have new desires. This is being born again by the Spirit whereby we seek to love God and His good ways.


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[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

As for Mark 7:20-23:

Matthew 12:35 says this,
"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

Is a person a good man or an evil man? This determines what kind of fruit a person is bringing forth out of their heart or out of their treasury (i.e. their bank) inside themselves. What is their heart like? Is it a new and born again heart that brings forth good fruit? This is why it is important to make sure that we all are truly transformed by God and that we all truly have Jesus living in our heart (whereby He does the good work within our lives) (See 2 Corinthians 13:5).

For a believer merely reflects the good works of Christ (who lives within them).
For all good comes from God (and not ourselves).
This is the good treasure that we are bring forth.
The treasure is Jesus.
He is our pearl of great price.
He is our gift who lives in us.
Jesus is the source of grace.
For it is written that He is full of grace and truth.
Jesus says, He is the light of the world.
So shine forth the light of Christ, my friends.
But make your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).
How can we do this?

Well, we can have an assurance in knowing Him, if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). For the love of God is perfected in us by keeping His Word (1 John 2:5).

Anyways, I hope what I said here was helpful for someone today.

Love, peace, and blessings be unto you all this fine day.
And may you all please be well in the Lord.


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[Bible Highlighter]

There is no doubt in God's existence, there is no doubt in Bible, there is no doubt in infinite Lake of Fire. So, be good for goodness sake. Such is the reality. Without the infinite Fire there is no infinite reason to be good one.

This is simply not true at all. I still fear God just fine even while knowing that the Lake of Fire is a place of destruction (of which the Bible says that it is). For how could I not quake in fear at God revealing any bad in me before all? How can I not quake in God expressing any kind of disproval in me? How can I not quake at even hearing the sound of His voice if He was even a little angry at me? How can I not quake at the idea that I could potentially miss out on living with God for all eternity? How can I not quake at the idea of feeling pain for a set amount of time before being destroyed? How can I not fear at the idea of no longer existing anymore? For even criminals are afraid when they go to the electric chair. For they want to continue to live.

So there is fear indeed.

It does not take unfair punishment of roasting alive people for all time.
That is not fear.
That is something that is sick, appalling, and wrong.

BTW ~ I do believe hell is a real and literal place. I just think it is also possible that the richman may not have been in any actual flames but he was being tormented by the heat of the flame nearby instead. Also, I am considering now that he was in the actual flames, as well. But this would be a flame that does not make you scream or cause your flesh to sizzle. For we see no description of such things in the story of Lazarus and the Richman in Luke 16.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Again, also, the morality or the goodness behind ECT has not been explained yet.
Nobody can explain it because it is not moral and good.
Think about it and pray to the Lord to show you the truth (Within His Word about this).
Sometimes what we think the Scriptures say is not always what we think it might mean.
I pray the Lord will show folks here the truth on this.

May God bless you all.
And stay strong in the power of His goodness and might.


...

 

[Der Alte]

To all:
Again, also, the morality or the goodness behind ECT has not been explained yet.
Nobody can explain it because it is not moral and good.
Think about it and pray to the Lord to show you the truth (Within His Word about this).
Sometimes what we think the Scriptures say is not always what we think it might mean.
I pray the Lord will show folks here the truth on this.
May God bless you all.
And stay strong in the power of His goodness and might.
...

What finite, fallible man might consider moral and good may not be what God considers moral and good.
By your standards was it moral and good for God to destroy all the people in the world, in the flood, men, women, children infants? Was it moral and good for God to destroy all the people in Sodom and Gomorrah, men, women, children infants? Was it moral and good for God to command Israel to go into certain lands and kill all the people; men, women, children, infants, young and old Deuteronomy 2:34, Deuteronomy 3:6, Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 20:17, Deuteronomy 32:25,
Was it moral and good for God to visit the iniquities of the fathers on their descendants to the 3rd and 4th generation? Exodus 20:5, Exodus 34:7, Numbers 14:18, Deuteronomy 5:9?

 

[aiki]

Surely sinful creatures cannot punish in such a way because they are not perfect like God, right? But morality does not change regardless of who we are talking about here. Why? Because we are told repeatedly in Scripture to be like Christ in behavior. We are told to be Holy like God is Holy.

Sinful creatures apart from the empowering of God's Spirit cannot be holy as God is. And such empowerment is only available to saved and adopted children of God. Now, this doesn't let unrepentant sinners off the hook; they are also obliged to be holy as God is holy. But the Bible is clear that doing so for them is an impossibility; their natural inclination is toward sin, not God. Their only hope of properly obeying God's command to be holy is by coming into right relationship with God through Christ. So, no, sinful humans not spiritually regenerated by God cannot punish in the perfect way God does. This would include dictators, who, in being dictators, reveal they are not spiritually-regenerated.

Yes, I know. God says vengeance is mine and I will repay says the Lord. But even in the Old Testament, when God commanded His people to execute justice upon evil nations, God did not tell the Israelites to torture their enemies in the most horrible way possible for the rest of their lives (So as to show us a glimpse of the supposedly fair justice of Eternal Torment).

The Israelites were not a divine people. They were God's Chosen People, but that didn't make them divine. So their capacity and right to act in a divine way, to punish as God does, was not equal to God's. They were not, therefore, given the responsibility or the right to punish in exactly the way God does.

Again, you assert that GOD view of punishment is different than our judgment. We cannot possibly know such things.

Yes, we can. The Bible is full of divine judgment that is on a scale and of a sort that no human has the right or the power to enact. The ground opens up and swallows the wicked; cities are burned to ash by divine fire; the entire World is flooded and all but Noah and his family survive. Clearly, God's "view" of the punishment of the wicked is different from our own.

If somebody does evil against you, what does God tell you to do? Forgive them. Does not God send rain on the righteous and the unrighteous? Did not God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son? Did not Jesus ask the Father, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." ? This is the heart and character of God. He is forgiving and loving. For God's Word says, "God is love." It does not say that God is hate.

God is a God of forgiveness, yes. And the entire World has forgiveness from God in Christ - if they by faith trust in him as their Saviour and Lord. To those who do not, "tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil" (Ro. 2:9) and "the wrath of God abides on them." (Jn. 3:36) So, God has extended His forgiveness to us in the Person of Christ, but if we spurn The Way, The Truth, and The Life, we are left only with the terrible and eternal wrath of God. Forgiveness, then, is not the heart of God. Who God is in His essential nature is who He was before the universe existed. Did God forgive before the universe came into being? No. There was only Himself and He has never required forgiveness. But if forgiveness is His essential nature, He would have had to forgive someone. Did He forgive Himself for nothing, then? Obviously not. It is evident, therefore, that forgiveness is not an essential element of God's nature, like love, or holiness, or omniscience are.

The Bible does say, "God is love." This exact phrase appears only twice, though, in all of Scripture and both times in the same chapter. In contrast, the Bible declares God's holiness a multitude of times. The cherubim before His throne do not chant "Love, love, love Lord God Almighty," but "Holy, holy, holy." God's throne is holy; His angels are holy; His judgments are holy; His temple is holy; His word is holy; His Spirit is holy and on and on. Such things are not said about God's love, however.

You're right that the Bible never says, "God is hate." I've never suggested otherwise. However, the Bible is very clear that God does hate. He HATES sin.

Deuteronomy 12:31
31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Psalms 5:5-6
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Zechariah 8:17
17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the Lord."

And so on.

That is what you make God out to be when you say that He will torture people beyond what the crime calls for.

I have never said that "God will torture people beyond what their crime calls for." I have, instead, spoken of God punishing the wicked and that ECT is the appropriate response of a perfectly holy God to our sin.

For even the Son asks God the Father to forgive. But you will not want to hear that.

Nonsense. And a Strawman to boot.

You have your ECT doctrine and it sounds like God to you. But it is not God.

Again, nonsense. See above.

Yes, God will execute Judgment. But this will be fair and good judgment that we see in Luke 12:47-48.

But this passage directly contradicts your ideas about annihilation! See my prior posts.

Again, Luke 12:47-48 should not exist in your Bible because it is contrary to the concept of Concious Torture of People in Flames For All Time.

This may be how you deal with things in Scripture that don't suit you, but it isn't how I deal with them.

The saint can have the comfort in knowing that their unbelieving loved ones are roasting for all time as they live it up with GOD in His Kingdom. Sure sounds sick and saddistic, if you ask me.

And that is because you are guilty of the very things I described in my last post: You don't properly understand God's holiness or your own depravity - both of which are essential to understanding God's eternal punishment of the wicked.

Selah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What finite, fallible man might consider moral and good may not be what God considers moral and good.
By your standards was it moral and good for God to destroy all the people in the world, in the flood, men, women, children infants? Was it moral and good for God to destroy all the people in Sodom and Gomorrah, men, women, children infants? Was it moral and good for God to command Israel to go into certain lands and kill all the people; men, women, children, infants, young and old Deuteronomy 2:34, Deuteronomy 3:6, Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 20:17, Deuteronomy 32:25,
Was it moral and good for God to visit the iniquities of the fathers on their descendants to the 3rd and 4th generation? Exodus 20:5, Exodus 34:7, Numbers 14:18, Deuteronomy 5:9?

Yes. It was moral and good for God to do every one of those things.

Are you being upfront and totally open with me here? Or do you honestly just write off all this as not being explainable while you bury your moral compass?

As for the global flood:
God wiped out the entire world with a global flood because the people were so corrupt and dark that their thoughts were continually evil. It also tells us that there were Giants or Nephilm living during this time, too (Genesis 6). Now, can you imagine if the Lord allowed this evil world to exist today? Now, can you imagine these evil demon like people causing even more death and destruction in our world today? Therefore, the Lord was protecting future generations (including us) of having to live in such a dark world like that. So be thankful to the Lord, that He did not allow us to live in this type of future.

As for Sodom & Gomorrah: I reckon the same is true for God wiping out the world by a global flood. God was protecting us from having to live in an even more evil world than we are living in now.

As for God visiting the iniquities of their fathers on their descendants until the 3rd and 4th generations:
Read this article here:

How can God punish a person's family to the 3rd and 4th generations?

What about God commanding the death of the enemy's children in the Old Testament?

Well, we have to realize that under the New Testament, the church (the body of believers today) is forbidden in taking life. They are commanded by God to love their enemies and to pray for them. We are to bless those that curse us. Jesus said to turn the other cheek if somebody smites you. We are not to repay evil for evil but we are to conquer evil with good. For believers today are under a New Covenant with God in Jesus Christ. Israel was a political power or nation where God was to be their King. This nation was literally supposed to be the arm of God.

The church is not a political power or nation like the Israelite Nation during the Old Testament times. Yes, it is true. God did command the Israelites to wipe out children. But you have to understand the context and situation, though. God did not just tell them to kill only children. No doubt many of these children were damaged by the horrible sinful ways of their parents. These children no doubt would have corrupted the Israelites with the sin that they had learned from their parents. These children also probably carried many diseases like the animals because many of them were sexually abused in horrible pagan rituals to false gods, too. So the health of the Israelites was at risk. Also, some of these tribes attacked the Israelites in a cowardly fashion from behind (Where the woman and children stayed). No doubt, the Israelites children were probably killed at times during these battles. Can you imagine if your child was killed by evil people? What if your best friend's child was killed, too? How would you feel?

For example: What if a bunch of children today had let loose a deadly virus inside a mountain and if one of them had gotten out, they would in effect put the whole world at risk in being killed. Would the nearby containment team be wrong for shutting them inside the mountain? Would the President of the United States be wrong for ordering a missile strike against that mountain if he knew that one of those children was about to get out (Thereby killing most everyone on the planet)? This is similar to what God was doing with the Israelites. Except the deadly disease was sin and infection that would lead the hearts of the Israelites away from God and put at risk the line of the Messiah which was to save all mankind by dying on the cross for man's sins.

As for God taking life: Again, you have to understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life. They are in no way the same thing. God created all life. Man did not create all life. God owns all of creation. Man does not own all of creation. God decides who ultimately lives and who dies in this life. Man does not ultimately decide who lives and dies within this life. For even believers die. However, they go to be with God, though. Whereas the unbeliever is placed in a prison and is eventually destroyed in the Lake of Fire.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sinful creatures apart from the empowering of God's Spirit cannot be holy as God is. And such empowerment is only available to saved and adopted children of God. Now, this doesn't let unrepentant sinners off the hook; they are also obliged to be holy as God is holy. But the Bible is clear that doing so for them is an impossibility; their natural inclination is toward sin, not God. Their only hope of properly obeying God's command to be holy is by coming into right relationship with God through Christ. So, no, sinful humans not spiritually regenerated by God cannot punish in the perfect way God does. This would include dictators, who, in being dictators, reveal they are not spiritually-regenerated.



The Israelites were not a divine people. They were God's Chosen People, but that didn't make them divine. So their capacity and right to act in a divine way, to punish as God does, was not equal to God's. They were not, therefore, given the responsibility or the right to punish in exactly the way God does.



Yes, we can. The Bible is full of divine judgment that is on a scale and of a sort that no human has the right or the power to enact. The ground opens up and swallows the wicked; cities are burned to ash by divine fire; the entire World is flooded and all but Noah and his family survive. Clearly, God's "view" of the punishment of the wicked is different from our own.



God is a God of forgiveness, yes. And the entire World has forgiveness from God in Christ - if they by faith trust in him as their Saviour and Lord. To those who do not, "tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil" (Ro. 2:9) and "the wrath of God abides on them." (Jn. 3:36) So, God has extended His forgiveness to us in the Person of Christ, but if we spurn The Way, The Truth, and The Life, we are left only with the terrible and eternal wrath of God. Forgiveness, then, is not the heart of God. Who God is in His essential nature is who He was before the universe existed. Did God forgive before the universe came into being? No. There was only Himself and He has never required forgiveness. But if forgiveness is His essential nature, He would have had to forgive someone. Did He forgive Himself for nothing, then? Obviously not. It is evident, therefore, that forgiveness is not an essential element of God's nature, like love, or holiness, or omniscience are.

The Bible does say, "God is love." This exact phrase appears only twice, though, in all of Scripture and both times in the same chapter. In contrast, the Bible declares God's holiness a multitude of times. The cherubim before His throne do not chant "Love, love, love Lord God Almighty," but "Holy, holy, holy." God's throne is holy; His angels are holy; His judgments are holy; His temple is holy; His word is holy; His Spirit is holy and on and on. Such things are not said about God's love, however.

You're right that the Bible never says, "God is hate." I've never suggested otherwise. However, the Bible is very clear that God does hate. He HATES sin.

Deuteronomy 12:31
31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Psalms 5:5-6
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Zechariah 8:17
17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the Lord."

And so on.



I have never said that "God will torture people beyond what their crime calls for." I have, instead, spoken of God punishing the wicked and that ECT is the appropriate response of a perfectly holy God to our sin.



Nonsense. And a Strawman to boot.



Again, nonsense. See above.



But this passage directly contradicts your ideas about annihilation! See my prior posts.



This may be how you deal with things in Scripture that don't suit you, but it isn't how I deal with them.



And that is because you are guilty of the very things I described in my last post: You don't properly understand God's holiness or your own depravity - both of which are essential to understanding God's eternal punishment of the wicked.

Selah.

Yeah, sorry. God is telling me not to respond to you for a while.

In addition, I have already provided my case and argument for what is the truth here.
Going back and forth over it is not going to help you or anyone else who is closed to hearing it.
You will see what you want to see (for your own reasons).

Also, we disagree on much in regards to morality.
I see both ECT and OSAS as extremely immoral doctrines.
So I think it is best to give it a rest for a while.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well.


...

 

[Gabriel Anton]

It does not take unfair punishment of roasting alive people for all time.
That is not fear.
That is something that is sick, appalling, and wrong.

To all:

Again, also, the morality or the goodness behind ECT has not been explained yet.
Nobody can explain it because it is not moral and good.

Peace be with you.

I know your stance quite well on this subject of the afterlife because you have written on it quite a fair bit.

The reason why the punishments for sin is sick, appalling and wrong is because sin is sick, appalling and wrong.

Sin is not moral nor is it good.

Therefore the just treatment for sin by God is a punishment which is sick, appalling and wrong which is neither moral nor good because sin is sick, appalling and wrong and not moral and not good.


This is to defend aiki. There are a lot of spiritual writers in history that say, "A sure sign that a person is going to be damned by Almighty God is when the person misinterprets the Word of God in regards to the afterlife."

God bless you.

 

[aiki]

Also, we disagree on much in regards to morality.
I see both ECT and OSAS as extremely immoral doctrines.
So I think it is best to give it a rest for a while.

I understand. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I can't make you see the truth; I can only show it to you. I'm sure as you continue to pursue Him, God will straighten out your doctrinal confusions.

Selah.

 

[joinfree]

..........
It does not take unfair punishment of roasting alive people for all time.
That is not fear.
That is something that is sick, appalling, and wrong.
...

How come, what you know the mind of God? Perhaps you are the one of them? Genesis 3:5. If yes, then please reveal me the Grand Unification Theory of Physics.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I understand. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I can't make you see the truth; I can only show it to you. I'm sure as you continue to pursue Him, God will straighten out your doctrinal confusions.

Selah.

Right. Just because you say so does not make it true.

Well, Eternal Security is immoral because if not explained properly, it makes men to think they have a license to sin. It is also immoral because most I have encountered say you can die in one or two unrepentant serous sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved (as long as you generally live a holy life).

Eternal Conscious Torment is immoral because it turns God into a monster whereby He tortures the wicked in intense flames for all time (beyond the amount of sin they committed). The God of forgiveness and mercy and love is distorted by the traditions of men.

Such morality in these doctrines can never be explained of course because they are immoral (when one stops and thinks about it). But people don't like to be wrong and they think the majority of Bible believing churches cannot be wrong in their teachings.


...

 

[Der Alte]

Yes. It was moral and good for God to do every one of those things.
Are you being upfront and totally open with me here? Or do you honestly just write off all this as not being explainable while you bury your moral compass?

Please refrain from derogatory insinuations. Address what I say, not what you assume about my character. One and only caution.

As for the global flood:
God wiped out the entire world with a global flood because the people were so corrupt and dark that their thoughts were continually evil. It also tells us that there were Giants or Nephilm living during this time, too (Genesis 6). Now, can you imagine if the Lord allowed this evil world to exist today? Now, can you imagine these evil demon like people causing even more death and destruction in our world today? Therefore, the Lord was protecting future generations (including us) of having to live in such a dark world like that. So be thankful to the Lord, that He did not allow us to live in this type of future.
As for Sodom & Gomorrah: I reckon the same is true for God wiping out the world by a global flood. God was protecting us from having to live in an even more evil world than we are living in now.

So in your opinion it is good and moral for God to destroy innocent people along with the evil including innocent children and infants?

As for God visiting the iniquities of their fathers on their descendants until the 3rd and 4th generations:
Read this article here:

How can God punish a person's family to the 3rd and 4th generations?
What about God commanding the death of the enemy's children in the Old Testament?
Well, we have to realize that under the New Testament, the church (the body of believers today) is forbidden in taking life. They are commanded by God to love their enemies and to pray for them. We are to bless those that curse us. Jesus said to turn the other cheek if somebody smites you. We are not to repay evil for evil but we are to conquer evil with good. For believers today are under a New Covenant with God in Jesus Christ. Israel was a political power or nation where God was to be their King. This nation was literally supposed to be the arm of God.
The church is not a political power or nation like the Israelite Nation during the Old Testament times. Yes, it is true. God did command the Israelites to wipe out children. But you have to understand the context and situation, though. God did not just tell them to kill only children. No doubt many of these children were damaged by the horrible sinful ways of their parents. These children no doubt would have corrupted the Israelites with the sin that they had learned from their parents. These children also probably carried many diseases like the animals because many of them were sexually abused in horrible pagan rituals to false gods, too. So the health of the Israelites was at risk. Also, some of these tribes attacked the Israelites in a cowardly fashion from behind (Where the woman and children stayed). No doubt, the Israelites children were probably killed at times during these battles. Can you imagine if your child was killed by evil people? What if your best friend's child was killed, too? How would you feel?

I don't do links to or respond to long cut/pastes from random websites. If you think there is good information at your link copy/paste a paragraph or two.

For example: What if a bunch of children today had let loose a deadly virus inside a mountain and if one of them had gotten out, they would in effect put the whole world at risk in being killed. Would the nearby containment team be wrong for shutting them inside the mountain? Would the President of the United States be wrong for ordering a missile strike against that mountain if he knew that one of those children was about to get out (Thereby killing most everyone on the planet)? This is similar to what God was doing with the Israelites. Except the deadly disease was sin and infection that would lead the hearts of the Israelites away from God and put at risk the line of the Messiah which was to save all mankind by dying on the cross for man's sins.

There is no example from possible world events which could be compared to God's actions.

As for God taking life: Again, you have to understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life. They are in no way

the same thing. God created all life. Man did not create all life. God owns all of creation. Man does not own all of

creation. God decides who ultimately lives and who dies in this life. Man does not ultimately decide who lives and dies

within this life. For even believers die. However, they go to be with God, though. Whereas the unbeliever is placed in a

prison and is eventually destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

...

"God taking life: Again, you have to understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life." And you have to understand that finite, fallible man has no business complaining, or objecting to whatever God chooses to do or trying to force their finite, fallible sense of goodness and morality onto God no matter how much one thinks it is wrong.

 

[aiki]

Right. Just because you say so does not make it true.

This is true for us all. You included.

Well, Eternal Security is immoral because if not explained properly, it makes men to think they have a license to sin.

Almost anything not explained properly can lead people to do all sorts of foolish, harmful and evil things. Those who preach the SAL point of view, for example, neglect to teach the truth of Scripture properly, and in so doing encourage people to an ultimately self-centered motive for obeying God which leads in turn to all manner of legalism, hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

I am thoroughly convinced of OSAS but I don't believe I have a license to sin. Quite the opposite. Unlike those who adopt an SAL perspective, my obedience to God arises out of my love for Him, not a Self-centered desire to preserve myself from His wrathful judgment.

It is also immoral because most I have encountered say you can die in one or two unrepentant serous sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved (as long as you generally live a holy life).

This is so sad. It communicates volumes about how poorly you understand the basis for your justification and sanctification as a child of God. You have traded love for fear, Self-preservation for joyful fellowship. Very sad indeed.

Eternal Conscious Torment is immoral because it turns God into a monster whereby He tortures the wicked in intense flames for all time (beyond the amount of sin they committed). The God of forgiveness and mercy and love is distorted by the traditions of men.

Ah, the incredible blindness to God's truth into which we can fall! ECT doesn't make God into a monster; it shows us that we are monsters! Until you see this, until you understand better your own terrible depravity and how enormous an offense your sin is to God, you will never escape the blindness of your present position. ECT communicates just how awful our sin is; for if eternal torment is its just reward - and Scripture teaches this is so - then our sin must be very awful indeed! It seems in spite of your concerns about holiness in your views about OSAS/SAL, you have a weaker view of God's holiness and human sinfulness than I do. Ironic, that.

Such morality in these doctrines can never be explained of course because they are immoral (when one stops and thinks about it). But people don't like to be wrong and they think the majority of Bible believing churches cannot be wrong in their teachings.

They can - and have - been explained quite well. You don't accept these explanations, but that doesn't mean explanations don't exist, only that you are strongly biased against them. It is true, though, that we don't like to be shown to be wrong. This can be one of the biggest barriers to coming to God's truth. A barrier we all of us face - including you.

Selah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please refrain from derogatory insinuations. Address what I say, not what you assume about my character. One and only caution.

So in your opinion it is good and moral for God to destroy innocent people along with the evil including innocent children and infants?

I don't do links to or respond to long cut/pastes from random websites. If you think there is good information at your link copy/paste a paragraph or two.

There is no example from possible world events which could be compared to God's actions.


"God taking life: Again, you have to understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life." And you have to understand that finite, fallible man has no business complaining, or objecting to whatever God chooses to do or trying to force their finite, fallible sense of goodness and morality onto God no matter how much one thinks it is wrong.

Well, this reply gives me the impression that you have not seeked out apologetics in regards to defending God's good character by His actions in the Bible. If this is so: Well, it is not wrong to give an explanation for God's actions in the Bible (or to seek out such answers). These things are not a mystery if you pray, research, and study on such things. If you have studied apologetics, then please accept my apologies. But by what you said here, it appears you have no interest in such a thing.

Also, I was not attacking your character, I was merely asking questions to determine where you were coming from. As for the first question: Some people do not like to show all their cards. As for the second question: Well, for me it is strange from my perspective in not knowing how to defend God's actions in the Bible. It is not wrong for me to defend God in what He does in the Bible. Apologetic websites also are not wrong for doing this, as well.

For we should always be willing to give a reason for the hope that is within us.

Anyways, Good day to you, sir.
And may God bless you.
I think it is best we move on.
For we disagree on what I would consider.... "basics teachings."

Side Note:

As for not checking out the website article I posted:
From my perspective, if I did not know how to defend God's actions in regards to the 3rd and 4th generations, I would surely would love to know that (Regardless of what Christian group had written such an article). For I am hungry for God's Word and always looking to seek to defend the Lord my God. For so many today try to paint God in a bad light. So many today do not care to defend God's goodness. I love God and I am happy to defend His Word and His goodness. It is an honor.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is true for us all. You included.

But the difference is if the truth backs us up by:

(a) The whole of Scripture.
(b) Whether or not a real world example can be made out of such a belief.

Almost anything not explained properly can lead people to do all sorts of foolish, harmful and evil things.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:3).

This means that God's ways are not that complicated.
People make them to be complicated when they say that a person can just believe on Christ and they then say we do not need to worry about our salvation from that point on.
Paul says to us believers that we are to prove that Christ is in us unless we be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). Paul also says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12). Peter says we are to make our calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).

Those who preach the SAL point of view

I have been talking for many years against Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). I have never heard SAL as in reference to the "Biblical Teaching of Conditional Salvation."

I also tried Googling it, and nothing came up.

What does SAL stand for?

, for example, neglect to teach the truth of Scripture properly, and in so doing encourage people to an ultimately self-centered motive for obeying God which leads in turn to all manner of legalism, hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

Uh huh. So Jesus and His followers were wrong for teaching God's righteous ways? The sermon on the mount could easily be categorized as a pure teaching on God's righteous ways. For I see very little emphasis by Jesus on how a person can just believe and then not worry about sin in regards to their right standing with God at the sermon on the mount. On the contrary, we see the exact opposite (See Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15).

So was Jesus teaching wrongfully on the Sermon on the Mount by overemphasizing righteous living? Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

I am thoroughly convinced of OSAS but I don't believe I have a license to sin.

But there are many who say they believe in OSAS and yet they do believe they can sin as much as they like with the thinking they are saved. When they speak generally of the gospel, I do not see much difference between their message and the those OSAS proponents who believe that a saint has to generally live holy. Also, I do not see OSAS proponents who believe that a saint must generally live holy making it their mission to speak out against those OSAS proponents who think they can sin as much as they like with the thinking they are saved, either. This tells me that their doctrines are not all that unrelated to each other. For one seeks to justify lots of sin and the other seeks to justify a little bit of sin with God obviously rewarding them with Heaven (despite doing such evils).

Quite the opposite. Unlike those who adopt an SAL perspective, my obedience to God arises out of my love for Him, not a Self-centered desire to preserve myself from His wrathful judgment.

Does a child not love his parents just because they know they can be disciplined or punished by their parents? Love, and morality go hand in hand (Read 1 John 2:3-6). God's good ways and His fair judgment are in perfect harmony with each other. But in my view, these things become distorted in ECT and OSAS.

This is so sad. It communicates volumes about how poorly you understand the basis for your justification and sanctification as a child of God. You have traded love for fear, Self-preservation for joyful fellowship. Very sad indeed.

This is what I do not understand. How can God agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin with God rewarding them with Heaven despite such evil? Can God agree with sin? Surely not. God is good. So I would say that you are the one who does not truly understand, my friend. For Scripture says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Ah, the incredible blindness to God's truth into which we can fall! ECT doesn't make God into a monster; it shows us that we are monsters! Until you see this, until you understand better your own terrible depravity and how enormous an offense your sin is to God, you will never escape the blindness of your present position.

But what if you are wrong? Would you want God to be upset with you for misrepresenting His good character? For the point I am getting at is the "what if." To me, I would not want to take the chance on coloring God in a bad light just because it is a doctrine that is popular among Bible believing churches. I would want to know for sure if such a belief was truly good or not. I would want to test it and make sure, instead of just assuming I am right on what I know. I would want to be a good Berean and search the Scriptures to see whether those things were so or not. I would want to pray and seek the truth on such a matter because I am a representative of Jesus Christ. For how I present Jesus (Who is God) is very important. I would never want to speak ill or wrong of my Lord.

ECT communicates just how awful our sin is; for if eternal torment is its just reward - and Scripture teaches this is so - then our sin must be very awful indeed!

If sin was that awful, then Jesus would need to suffer for all eternity in the flames for us in order to forgive us. But seeing Jesus died on the cross physically for us ONE TIME, we know that Christ did indeed pay the punishment for our sin. Jesus did not need to pay the penalty of Eternal Torment in the flames of fire for all time to pay for our punishment of sin. So if ECT is the punishment, then Jesus would need to pay for that kind of punishment for us on our behalf so we can then live with Him. A part of Him would have to suffer there so as to save us from such a penalty. But seeing ECT is not true, only the death of Christ's body was what was truly necessary because the Second Death is indeed .... "death" (of which Christ paid for on our behalf by dying upon the cross).

It seems in spite of your concerns about holiness in your views about OSAS/SAL, you have a weaker view of God's holiness and human sinfulness than I do. Ironic, that.

As for your view on God's holiness being superior to mine: This is simply not true. You actually have the weaker view of God's holiness because God has to (a) agree with your thinking that sin on some level is okay with Him because a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins with the thinking they can be saved (as long as they generally live holy) and (b) God can punish people beyond what the crime calls for. Both of these beliefs are a violation of God's morality and goodness (Which is wrong). But people see the way they do for their own reasons.

As for human's sinfulness: Are you talking about believers or unbelievers?

They can - and have - been explained quite well. You don't accept these explanations, but that doesn't mean explanations don't exist, only that you are strongly biased against them.

Not true at all. When I was an ECT proponent in the past, I strived to defend the morality of ECT. But I was never able to truly do so. There is no real world example that you can provide for such a monstrous doctrine of painting God in such a bad light. Yet, I still held to the belief in ECT. I am currently against ECT now because "whereas I was blind, now I see." So many verses have opened up to me in a whole new and exiting way now (that I could not see before).

It is true, though, that we don't like to be shown to be wrong. This can be one of the biggest barriers to coming to God's truth. A barrier we all of us face - including you.

Selah.

I used to believe in ECT very strongly. I then became on the fence on ECT and CI (Conditional Immortality). But I then later learned of more verses of the truth in support of CI that made such a positon the only truth. So it was not an overnight change. I carefully compared Scripture with Scripture and prayed about it a lot.

As for admitting in being wrong: Well, there are also times I have admitted when I was wrong on certain verses (generally speaking). I am always seeking to seek the truth of God's Word and not what I want. My encouragment to you is to pray to God to show you the truth of God's Word on this matter. Consider CI as a potential possibility. This does not mean you believe it 100%, this means that you think it could be possible. It's how good detectives do good detective work. They look at all things from every angle. For by considering the CI viewpoint as being potentially true: You will be able to search the Scriptures and truly be open to seeing the truth of whether or not CI is really true or not. But if your mind is closed already, you will never see it. I already used to strongly believe in ECT. I even had a hard time letting it go, as well. But God's Word shown me the truth and there is no turning back. I cannot unlearn what I know by God's Spirit.

Anyways, love, peace, and blessings be unto you.
And please be well in the Lord and His good ways.


...

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

Ah, the incredible blindness to God's truth into which we can fall! ECT doesn't make God into a monster; it shows us that we are monsters! Until you see this, until you understand better your own terrible depravity and how enormous an offense your sin is to God, you will never escape the blindness of your present position. ECT communicates just how awful our sin is; for if eternal torment is its just reward - and Scripture teaches this is so - then our sin must be very awful indeed! It seems in spite of your concerns about holiness in your views about OSAS/SAL, you have a weaker view of God's holiness and human sinfulness than I do. Ironic, that.

aiki's view about sin and Hell is very clear. Sin is depravity therefore Hell is its just desserts. aiki here picks up on a hole in Jason's theology.

As for your view on God's holiness being superior to mine: This is simply not true. You actually have the weaker view of God's holiness because God has to (a) agree with your thinking that sin on some level is okay with Him because a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins with the thinking they can be saved (as long as they generally live holy) and (b) God can punish people beyond what the crime calls for. Both of these beliefs are a violation of God's morality and goodness (Which is wrong). But people see the way they do for their own reasons.

And here are the holes in Jason's theology.


Jason claims that God is moral and good.


If God is moral and good as Jason claims, how can 1 or 2 unrepentant sins separate the believer from God and Salvation?


Jason makes the claim that God is Holy and God punishes sin seriously by denying Salvation to a believer for just 1 or 2 unrepentant sins.


But when a Holy God punishes the sins of a sinner by sending the sinner to be tortured eternally in Hell, Jason makes the claim that cannot be, because God is moral and good.


If sin is as serious as Jason claims, that just 1 or 2 unrepentant sins can separate a believer from God and Salvation, why is it not possible for a Holy God to punish sin in a serious manner befitting what sin is?


Is it not possible that the Just treatment of sin by a Holy God is eternal punishment in Hell if sin is as serious as Jason claims sin to be?


Let's say a sinner kidnaps, then rapes, then tortures, then murders 100 females.

He gets caught and goes to trial.


The sinner lets everyone know that he enjoyed his sins.


The Sentences on offer:

The Judge sentences him to death. - Is this moral and good?

The Judge lets him live and sentences him to 100 years jail. - Is this moral and good?

The Judge makes him a warden in a female prison. - Is this moral and good?

The Judge forgives him and lets him back into society. - Is this moral and good?

The Judge banishes him to a Muslim country. - Is this moral and good?

The Judge orders him to be raped and tortured 100 times then put to death. - Is this moral and good?


Let's say among the victims of that sinner is Jason's wife, aiki's wife, Der Alter's wife and my wife.


But the sinner's mother lets everyone know that her son was born a good boy and is just a product of society's entertainment and inappropriate contentography. His life should be spared so that he can be rehabilitated.


Does morality and goodness come to play at all in all seriousness when sentencing this sinner?


Now if you feel angry at this sinner, just imagine how angry God would feel at this sinner.


If God were to send this sinner to be tortured forever in Hell, is this moral and good?


Or is God sadistic and wicked for sending this sinner to be tortured forever in Hell?


God bless you.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, this reply gives me the impression that you have not seeked out apologetics in regards to defending God's good character by His actions in the Bible. If this is so: Well, it is not wrong to give an explanation for God's actions in the Bible (or to seek out such answers). These things are not a mystery if you pray, research, and study on such things. If you have studied apologetics, then please accept my apologies. But by what you said here, it appears you have no interest in such a thing.

Also, I was not attacking your character, I was merely asking questions to determine where you were coming from. As for the first question: Some people do not like to show all their cards. As for the second question: Well, for me it is strange from my perspective in not knowing how to defend God's actions in the Bible. It is not wrong for me to defend God in what He does in the Bible. Apologetic websites also are not wrong for doing this, as well.
For we should always be willing to give a reason for the hope that is within us.
Anyways, Good day to you, sir.
And may God bless you.
I think it is best we move on.
For we disagree on what I would consider.... "basics teachings."

Side Note:
As for not checking out the website article I posted:
From my perspective, if I did not know how to defend God's actions in regards to the 3rd and 4th generations, I would surely would love to know that (Regardless of what Christian group had written such an article). For I am hungry for God's Word and always looking to seek to defend the Lord my God. For so many today try to paint God in a bad light. So many today do not care to defend God's goodness. I love God and I am happy to defend His Word and His goodness. It is an honor.
...

This is what I was referring to as derogatory insinuations. "while you bury your moral compass? In this post link : The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell