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The Double Standards of Creationism

cze_026

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Jet Black said:
Abiogenesis is not exactly cells forming randomly, it is itself a chemical process - one that is far from understood of course, but gaining ground.

Exactly. There is a big difference between chemically random or biologically random and something that is statistically/mathmatically random. I just don't get why this continues to be an debatable issue. It really isn't that complicated. As far as Biogenesis (or Abiogeniesis), we have a great deal of understanding of the individual biochemical reactions, but there is much to be discovered on how this reactions inter-relate to one another.

Cze
 
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Numenor

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JohnR7 said:
Do you think that outnumbering them 40 to 1 has anything to do with it?

Not as much as them not knowing what they're talking about. Mark kennedy is still around because he has clearly been (self?)educated in biology. Goodness knows why you're still around though John.
 
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corvus_corax

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JohnR7 said:
Do you think that outnumbering them 40 to 1 has anything to do with it?
Possibility #1- "Evolutionists" provide a fairly unified front because they have fact after fact after fact backing up their statements.
Possibility #2- With certain exceptions (noted previously in this thread), Creationists dont have facts backing up their statements and thus cant provide a fairly unified front.
Possibility #3- "Evolutionists" are so spiritually bereft that we have nothing better to do than post over and over again. No, wait, that wont work, because that would also apply to certain Creationists and TE's as well.
Possibility #4- Some Creationists realize that it's purely a matter of faith, and thus dont bother debating CvsE due to the fact that it doesnt effect their faith in God.
Im sure there's other possibilities as well, those are just the 4 that popped into my head.

But really, one must ask, why dont Creationist debates and posts outnumber "evolutionist" debates and posts by "40 to 1"? If they have the evidence, the facts and the testable theories, they should be able to blow 'evolutionists' out of the water. Yet, even when threads are created specifically for that purpose they fail to do so.
 
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Hydra009

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corvus_corax said:
But really, one must ask, why dont Creationist debates and posts outnumber "evolutionist" debates and posts by "40 to 1"? If they have the evidence, the facts and the testable theories, they should be able to blow 'evolutionists' out of the water. Yet, even when threads are created specifically for that purpose they fail to do so.
Exactly. I also have to point out: if creationism is as convincing as creationists claim, why are creationists vastly outnumbered in CF as well as throughout the world? And even more revealing, why does one's likelyhood of being a creationist diminish with education? If, as creationists sometimes claim, evolution is merely a justification of atheism and a distortion of the Bible, how come it is so widely accepted by theists of many faiths, including Christianity? Did Pope John Paul II not know how to read the Bible? Why is creationism more or less limited to America and to those who believe the Bible to be literal and innerant? Why are creationists themselves at odds over the age of the Earth and the extent of "microevolution"?
 
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jwu

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Another thing: A common argument is that Genesis was written in a straightforward way for common people and therefore should be understood literally...but at the same time mind boggling apologetics seem to be completely acceptable when someone points out self-contradictions in the Bible.
 
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Phred

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Creationists are outnumbered 40-1... says something more than just numbers. It says that evolution is easily understood to mean the same thing by many people. Unlike creationists... where you have some people believing the Earth is 6,000 years old, some believing hundreds of thousands of years, some believing who-knows-what. The only thing creationists have in common is a desire to see science humbled. That's why you're not able to be taken seriously. You don't know what you believe or why, you just know that you're right and science is not.

Have any of you ever posted evidence for creation instead of reasons why you don't believe evolution? Ever?


.
 
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LittleNipper

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Valkhorn said:
I find it quite amusing, and quite sad that there are plenty of double standards in with creationists and creationism. So, I've decided to compile a short list of some of the most common double standards that exist in this pseudoscience called creationism.

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Double Standard 1:

Creationists require observable proof for Evolution,
but not observable proof for Creationism


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This is a very common double standard which exists among all creationists. I've heard many times from creationists who demand observable evidence from evolution, or proof of transitionals, or proof of things that even evolution says will not happen.

For example, a certain member of this very forum just said that because no one has observed an ape turning into a human, it hasn't happened. Yet, this same person did not witness the dawn of time, the dawn of Earth, or even the dawn of civilization - but he felt he was justified in condemning what he was ignorant about anyways.

Well, from an objective standpoint, one must realize what evolution is, and what it isn't, and also what evidence exists, and what conclusions can be drawn from given evidence. Evolution does not say that apes will magically turn into humans. Evolution states that apes and men are essentially the same class of species, and both have had the same common ancestor. Evolution does not specify that a monkey will turn into a human over one generation. Evolution does say that over enough time, and with enough genetic variation within a group of organisms that speciation can but will not definately occur.

Also, while Evolution is supported on a mountain of imperical evidence, creationism is not supported by any evidence. There is never any proof of a global flood. There is certainly no proof that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, and there is no evidence that man did not have an ancestor from somewhere - in other words there is no huge gap in skeletal remains which leaves any question of how man has evolved from an earlier form of ape.

Back to the 'ape turning into man' story - I feel that that would more likely explain creationism than it would Evolution. Creationism would expect something miraculous to occur or for there to be divine intervention.

Well, an ape turning into a man over one generation would be nothing short of miraculous, wouldn't it? Remember, Evolution doesn't involve miracles.

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Double Standard 2:

Creationists claim Evolution requires blind faith, and yet rely on blind faith to depend on creationism

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I've also heard from many creationists the claim that Evolution requires blind faith because it is simply rediculous or is a fairy tale and is not supported by any evidence.

This is mostly based on misconceptions. The first misconception is that Evolution is not based on evidence. Evolution is entirely based on evidence. In fact, Evolution only came around AFTER the evidence came up which supported it.

Also, Evolution continues to be supported by more and more evidence with each passing year. Evolution is supported by millions of scientists in many different fields and even by christian scientists. Evolution is a science which utilizes the facts first, and draws up a comparitive theory which can best explain how the evidence got there and what it means.

Evolution is also NOT a faith. It is not a religion. It is not a belief system, either.

Evolution is a scientific theory. That's it. It's a tool which is used to explain how live evolved over time, and how life will evolve in the future. Evolution has made plenty of predictions which have been shown to be true. Evolution has also continued to evolve as a theory because it is there to best explain the evidence that exists.

Since faith is often defined as a belief in an unsupported claim, in short: Evolution does not require faith, and evolution is not based on faith.

This is somewhat amusing because Creationism is a religion, and it requires faith in many things which cannot be proven outside a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Remember, a global flood was disproved hundreds of years ago by christian scientists. The earth was proven to be MUCH older than 6,000 years by many independent sources of data - all of which were found in the real world and in nature.

It is quite amusing how creationists often blame evolutions for their own guilty pleasures - believing in something that cannot be substantiated.



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Double Standard 3:

Creationists claim Evolution won't listen to the real evidence and adapt, but creationism by its own definition can never change since it's mind is already made up

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Here is another amusing and sad double standard often used by creationists.

I've heard from many creationists that the evidence does not support Evolution or does not support what evolution says. This seems to me like its suggesting that Evolution will not adapt and change to the evidence - when in fact it is the opposite.

Evolution will adapt and even be falsified if the evidence ever is against it. If there is a major hole in the theory, it will not be ignored - and will be dealt with by research and science.

On the other side of the table, Creationism's mind is already made up. It's conclusion is firmly based in scripture and a literal interpretation of Genesis from the Bible. It is immobile, and so it stands to reason that any evidence against Creationism will likely be ignored because the conclusion cannot change.

Evolution is in fact adaptable, and Creationism is stubborn and obtuse.

There could also be more double standards (I'm sure there are plenty) so if anyone else has any more feel free to post them here!

The FACT is that I enjoy GOD's WORD. Now, you may not accept the Bible as GOD's Word, and that is entirely up to you. All the so called "standards" that you base evolution on are entirely build upon "learned" values and interpretation of data without divine revelation. You either accept that GOD exists and you personally experiance HIM, or you do not accept this and you believe only what you determine on your own merits... Evolution is only a figment of "authoritative" imagination and this discipline is propagated through singular influential educational techniques. The influence of evolution has had far reaching and disastrous affects in its social, cultural, educational, and religious applications. It promotes the lie that anything can be known to man if only man applies his learning abilities that he himself developed. This is a lie and Satan is the Father of ALL lies.
 
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corvus_corax

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Hydra009 said:
Did Pope John Paul II not know how to read the Bible?
Some few have gone so far as to say he was heretical for saying such.
I dont say that. I say that he was (in this instance) smarter (or at least better educated) than the vast majority of Creationists.
Hydra009 said:
Why is creationism more or less limited to America and to those who believe the Bible to be literal and innerant?
Are you familiar with the American public education system? Eep! :blush:
Hydra009 said:
Why are creationists themselves at odds over the age of the Earth and the extent of "microevolution"?
Because, unlike empirical data, testable theory and in-your-face facts, the bible itself never answers these questions?
Nah, couldnt be that. :)

jwu said:
Another thing: A common argument is that Genesis was written in a straightforward way for common people and therefore should be understood literally...
Really? Wow!
I would put forth that is was written for common people but that those people (at the time of the writing) were much more accepting of mythology teaching truths without being literal fact.
IOW, the intent and message of the Creation story has been warped by those who dont understand such.
jwu said:
but at the same time mind boggling apologetics seem to be completely acceptable when someone points out self-contradictions in the Bible.
Hehe. I just say that people try to make excuses for the bible and god. But then again, your statement was much nicer :)
 
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Valkhorn

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Have any of you ever posted evidence for creation instead of reasons why you don't believe evolution? Ever?

They do post PRATTs a lot, and don't bother to learn that they are indeed Points that have been Refuted a Thousand Times.
 
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corvus_corax

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LittleNipper said:
The FACT is that I enjoy GOD's WORD. Now, you may not accept the Bible as GOD's Word, and that is entirely up to you.
That's cool :)
LittleNipper said:
Evolution is only a figment of "authoritative" imagination and this discipline is propagated through singular influential educational techniques.
So you're saying that allele frequencies DONT change over time?
Tell you what, do the research and tests to empirically prove this and you can probably get a Nobel Prize!
LittleNipper said:
The influence of evolution has had far reaching and disastrous affects in its social, cultural, educational, and religious applications.
So has Christianity in its various guises. Once again, dont throw the baby out with the bath water.
LittleNipper said:
It promotes the lie that anything can be known to man if only man applies his learning abilities that he himself developed.
So rather than study the world around us, we should just all bury our noses in the bible? Great! Why are you still using a computer? Your computer was created through the various "lies" that things can be known to man if man applies his learning abilities that he himself developed.
Your computer is, according to your own logic, a tool of Satan. Get away from it and save yourself!
LittleNipper said:
This is a lie and Satan is the Father of ALL lies.
Satan is an angel of God who does God's bidding. (read the Old Testament).
By the way, have you gotten rid of your computer yet? ;)
 
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LittleNipper

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corvus_corax said:
That's cool :)

So you're saying that allele frequencies DONT change over time?
Tell you what, do the research and tests to empirically prove this and you can probably get a Nobel Prize!

So has Christianity in its various guises. Once again, dont throw the baby out with the bath water.

So rather than study the world around us, we should just all bury our noses in the bible? Great! Why are you still using a computer? Your computer was created through the various "lies" that things can be known to man if man applies his learning abilities that he himself developed.
Your computer is, according to your own logic, a tool of Satan. Get away from it and save yourself!

Satan is an angel of God who does God's bidding. (read the Old Testament).
By the way, have you gotten rid of your computer yet? ;)

Oh, so you do believe some of what the Bible reveals at YOU OWN discression. I feel that the computer is a tool. I do not worship it nor those that developed it. The Bible is GOD's manual for our good, not just to sit on a shelf.

PS You can study GOD's Word on the computer or you can look at sleazy websites. The tool is at your disposal and the choice is yours alone...
 
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Gracchus

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Numenor said:
Not as much as them not knowing what they're talking about. Mark kennedy is still around because he has clearly been (self?)educated in biology. Goodness knows why you're still around though John.

Because he's not (self?)educated?

:confused:
 
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AliceSOBEstudent

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:doh: :doh: :doh: Why do I allow myself to get involved in these discussions, when I don’t have anything to say?



AliceSOBEstudent said:
Fine, I'll bite. But...I will be honest and say that I am not really into debating this, and am not rabid about the scientific aspect of things, so I may not be that fun to bait.



As I tried to say before, I am most definitely not the right person to debate this. I just thought the thread seemed a little lonely and I couldn't sleep. :blush:





Jet Black said:
then the high schools aren't teaching you what science is.


I am sure that's true. There are lots of other subjets that are not well taught and obviously it does depend on the school. I can't believe what they teach in the history classes down here. (In Houston, as compared to NJ, where I went to school and what I learned studying history in College)
I also have to admit that after going back and thinking about I realized the teachings I was thinking of were from my middle school. We actually never discussed this (extra-species evolution) topic in high school at all. (Although my HS required three years of Biology we focused more on methodology and primary research then content) I think our textbooks were published in 1975, no I do not remember the name and/or have in my possession the textbook in question. It was well over a decade ago. I do remember my teacher talking about human fetuses going through all the evolutionary stages in the womb and it is my current understanding that has been disproved. Maybe over the weekend I can find my old notebook and re-read what they taught. Although that may not really have much to do with the teaching of evolution and more with a bad teacher.
I personally, do not believe that current scientific evidence supports creationism in a full way either. But again, I've never read in enough detail to say.



Jet Black, do you have a suggestion for a book and/or website that explains exactly what I'm looking at there with less technical language. Without ID on each image, I don’t really know what I’m looking at. Honestly, you could switch several of those (skulls) into a different order and it would be the same to me.

You may think this just shows how "stupid" I am. That does not particularly upset me, b/c I am secure in my intelligence and background (my SAT scores, IQ, university attended, blah, blah blah) I just have never spent any time looking into this issue, it as never been important to me. So again, I probably made a mistake posting here.



Not sure what the issue is with the use of the use of the word random. I probably should have said “spontaneously” or something.



Sorry if you thought I was "running away" just that I had to sleep last night. (I run my own company, so my work schedule is a little weird.) I may have posted elsewhere during the day, but they were not discussions that required more than two sentences of answer.

I know I haven't addressed everything mentioned. Perhaps later.
 
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MartinM

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Valkhorn said:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Double Standard 2:

Creationists claim Evolution requires blind faith, and yet rely on blind faith to depend on creationism

------------------------------------------------------------------------

This isn't really a double standard. It's an attempt to deny science's epistemological priviledge, thus rendering creationism and evolution as equal 'beliefs'. The first 'double standard' is part of that agenda too, in many cases.
 
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random_guy

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One can not understand the mind of God:

This is usually a reply when people bring up unintelligent design. He is the designer and we can not comprehend his designs. What seems like bad design isn't.

However, If there was an ID, we would see IC.

Now, in order to prove ID, creationists will know how God would design life. They think that God would IC when designing life.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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Here's another one...

We all use the same evidence; it's just a matter of interpretation.

More of an internal contradiction than a double standard, but it shows how creationists hold science to a higher standard than creationism. Why? Take the famed AiG statement of faith quotation:

"By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."

Apparently creationists and scientists do not all use the same evidence. Creationiosts freely admit that they throw out the evidence they don't like.

It's not merely a difference of interpretation at work here: it's a matter of intellectual honesty. Creationists evidently use a markedly smaller data set (also demonstrated on many threads on this forum).

The implication is that creationists expect science to work with all the evidence, but they don't hold creationism to that same standard.
 
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thedum

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Darwin's theory of evolution is silly...but evolution forms are true, we all are born, grow.....then die thats evolution. Obviously some things on earth were created so we can't understand. It was still created thats a fact....and a child understands that. Lets say you go buy lumber, get some nails, cut the boards out....then you build something...thats our creation of a project. God is huge.....we can't understand him, just look how tech. the human body is..its insane, each cell holds so much info. The Holy Bible rules...and i'm thankful for the truth. I went from being a Christian to being an Athiest...to now being a follower of Jesus Christ again. Check out Luke 6:27,28 thats what he is all about
 
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