Mathematical Formulas In Nature - Absolute Proof Of Creation

[Ophiolite]

That's not the experience of this former skeptic, nor of hundreds whose testimonies I have witnessed over the years. God's creation in concert with His Word - spoken and written - have won souls beyond counting going on ~ 6000 years now. As the Lord Himself says, His Word has and will not return to Him void.



"Natural" is no explanation at all.



No, the formula is a law. Laws are designed. Would you have fallen to your death off a cliff if you had yet to discover the law of gravity?



You are certainly over-dramatizing my response. And if you believe that is nasty, this must be your first day of posting in this forum.

Hans and I both wear big boy pants, but thanks for the advice... We got it.



Do provide detail, then.



Way ahead of you. Already a joyful part of that majority. You haven't read any of my posts, have you?

Case in point:

Spectacular Presentation Of The Wonders Of God's Creation

Spectacular Presentation Of The Wonders Of God's Creation The natural universe reveals God's power, majesty, wisdom, and creative Genius. The human conscience reveals God's justice and man's need for redemption. Finally, Jesus Christ is the ultimate revelation of God's love for us. Stars...

www.christianforums.com

You gather proof to support your faith, we gather proof to support our faith. You proselytize, so do we. Fair is fair. Welcome to open society! While it lasts...

biblegateway.com

[Note to all: I include the link as an invitation to do your own research]

Thank you for your time. I see nothing to be gained in a discussion where, despite the apparent common language, there is no obvious place where perspectives or comprehension intersect. I dare say I'll stumble on some of your posts in the future as I have likely done in the past, If I recognise either the content, or the style, (or even the name) I'll aim to move on.

 

[Joseph G]

Thank you for your time. I see nothing to be gained in a discussion where, despite the apparent common language, there is no obvious place where perspectives or comprehension intersect. I dare say I'll stumble on some of your posts in the future as I have likely done in the past, If I recognise either the content, or the style, (or even the name) I'll aim to move on.

Via con, Dios!

 

[Bradskii]

Now I've read the whole thread (well, excluding one members posts), was that it? Maths, therefore God?

 

[AV1611VET]

Now I've read the whole thread (well, excluding one members posts), was that it? Maths, therefore God?

God, therefore math.

 

[Joseph G]

That there is order in the natural world is beyond doubt. That order can be modeled mathematically. Now, the question is, is that order described by the mathematics, or is the mathematics the order itself?

I would say that mathematics - as a set of laws or constants - is an element that creates order. And order makes everything possible - inexplicably one would think sans a Creator - for the benefit of mankind.

Examples: the earth remaining at just the right distance from the sun, photosynthesis producing oxygen and food, the composition of the atmosphere and weather, our brains recognising patterns, symmetry, organising parts of a whole, or puzzle-solving,

That is an age-old philosophical question which is still controversial, but it really has nothing to do with the existence of God.

I believe it does. Speaking of mathematics, how could we calculate the odds that a single planet would spontaneously produce - without cause - such an intertwined, complex and symbiotic beauty - alone amongst a majestic galaxy - that would thrill and awe and sustain such fragile wee humans appearing here as a wisp for 70, 80 years - by random chance?

The beneficense of it all towards us speaks of a Benefactor Who designed it all.

Or, how does God order the universe? By mathematics or by some other way which mathematics (and scientific theories generally) only describes?

I cannot conceive of how this is possible with my finite brain. But just as we are cognizant of our own spirits, we have good reason to seriously consider that there is a greater Spirit Who governs it all.

That certainly agrees with God's revelation of Himself in.the most celebrated and ancient tome ever produced - the Bible.

biblegateway.com

 

[BCP1928]

I would say that mathematics - as a set of laws or constants - is an element that creates order. And order makes everything possible - inexplicably one would think sans a Creator - for the benefit of mankind.

Examples: the earth remaining at just the right distance from the sun, photosynthesis producing oxygen and food, the composition of the atmosphere and weather, our brains recognising patterns, symmetry, organising parts of a whole, or puzzle-solving,



I believe it does. Speaking of mathematics, how could we calculate the odds that a single planet would spontaneously produce - without cause - such an intertwined, complex and symbiotic beauty - alone amongst a majestic galaxy - that would thrill and awe and sustain such fragile wee humans appearing here as a wisp for 70, 80 years - by random chance?

The beneficense of it all towards us speaks of a Benefactor Who designed it all.



I cannot conceive of how this is possible with my finite brain.

It's a good thing God's "brain" isn't finite.

But just as we are cognizant of our own spirits, we have good reason to seriously consider that there is a greater Spirit Who governs it all.

True, but it is not really a scientific question.

That certainly agrees with God's revelation of Himself in.the most celebrated and ancient tome ever produced - the Bible.

biblegateway.com

And that is part of the problem we are having in communicating. You seem to be arguing both propositions at once, both ID and the particular truth that you see in the Bible as if they were interchangeable. It's confusing.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I would say that mathematics - as a set of laws or constants - is an element that creates order. And order makes everything possible - inexplicably one would think sans a Creator - for the benefit of mankind.

Perhaps, some of us don't assume the Universe, Galaxy, or even the Earth was "for the benefit of mankind". We are the newcomers, only a few hundred thousand years old among things aged in billions of years.

Examples: the earth remaining at just the right distance from the sun,

This allowed life to form and survive, but other planets are in similar places round their stars.

photosynthesis producing oxygen and food,

animals dependent on oxygen and photosynthesis generated foods didn't evolve until after photosynthesis did.

the composition of the atmosphere and weather,

The atmosphere as we know it was formed by that microscopic life.

our brains recognising patterns, symmetry, organising parts of a whole, or puzzle-solving,

Sometimes I think we are too good at pattern recognition, after all we see patterns that aren't actually there.

I believe it does. Speaking of mathematics, how could we calculate the odds that a single planet would spontaneously produce - without cause - such an intertwined, complex and symbiotic beauty - alone amongst a majestic galaxy - that would thrill and awe and sustain such fragile wee humans appearing here as a wisp for 70, 80 years - by random chance?

It is not random. It is driven by chemical reactions and physical processes. As they say beauty is the eye of the beholder.

The beneficense of it all towards us speaks of a Benefactor Who designed it all.

Is Benefactor Who the brother of Doctor Who?

I cannot conceive of how this is possible with my finite brain. But just as we are cognizant of our own spirits, we have good reason to seriously consider that there is a greater Spirit Who governs it all.

Is Spirit Who another one of the Who boys? (These "modern" parents and their names, sheesh.)

That certainly agrees with God's revelation of Himself in.the most celebrated and ancient tome ever produced - the Bible.

biblegateway.com

meh

 

[Bradskii]

Examples: the earth remaining at just the right distance from the sun etc

A puddle is considering its existence. And it comes to the conclusion that it's the result of some intelligence. After all, what are the chances of the hole in which the puddle exists being exactly the right size and shape for the puddle to exist.

And consider this. The universe is expanding. The observable universe is just the parts that we can see. There is more beyond that horizon that we have never been able to see and never will. It is forever beyond any means to know anything about it. Literally. And past that boundary there is a small galaxy with limited solar systems. One with a dying sun and a planet on the outer limits of that sun, cold dark and dead. And on the dark side of the small planet, forever in shadow, is a small crater and in that crator there is a small rock that has been sitting there for billions of years.

Did God create the universe for us? Then why did He create that small rock? It's like built us a house with an infinite number of rooms, but we aren't able to access almost all of them.

 

[dlamberth]

Perhaps, some of us don't assume the Universe, Galaxy, or even the Earth was "for the benefit of mankind". We are the newcomers, only a few hundred thousand years old among things aged in billions of years.

Exactly!

 

[Joseph G]

It's a good thing God's "brain" isn't finite.

Amen!

True, but it is not really a scientific question.

It's all scientific because creation emanates from God. And that includes our minds, bodies, and spirits - we ourselves are a part of God's science. Exactly why we cannot fully comprehend all and even ourselves - because we didn't create anything. He did and knows all intimately - especially us. We are HIS science project, not the other way around.

And that is part of the problem we are having in communicating. You seem to be arguing both propositions at once, both ID and the particular truth that you see in the Bible as if they were interchangeable. It's confusing.

They are actually interactive as One. The Intelligent Designer is God the Father. The spoken and written Word of God is Jesus - Who came in the flesh. The Spirit of God is sent forth from the Father, and seals and indwells His people. Three Persons, One God - since eternity past and unto eternity future. Jesus the Bridegroom one day to be united forever with His Bride - the Church.

I know... difficult to fully grasp. But that is why we marry Creation to His Word. Its no surprise to us that He spoke all into existence - because His Word is literally Life to us.

John 1:1-5 NIV
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

John 1:14 NIV
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - New International Version

The Word Became Flesh - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light...

www.biblegateway.com