The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Bible Highlighter]

I have previously stated if an alcoholic who beats his wife, and is a habitual thief who constantly uses fouls language claims to have become a Christian, and a couple of months later nothing has changed, he proves he had dead faith. He was never truly born again in the first place
So I guess we agree.

Grace us a hard thing to understand, impossible through the human intellect.
For the whole of your life, from first to last you must live under a righteousness apart from observing the law.
The person who does this, and has asked Christ to be Lord and Saviour of their life, and in their heart truly loves God, has no need to fear warnings in scripture, or be told of the need to do works.
There is nothing more they will in their heart want to do than to please and obey God, for they live him.
For these people the power of sin is broken in their lives, for the power of sin is the law( of righteousness) 1cor15:56
The people who need to remind themselves they need to do good works are those who have not surrendered their lives to Christ and in their hearts do not truly love him above all else. And they are also the people who need to heed the warnings of scripture

So you are saying that a believer who holds to the belief that there are no dire consequences to sin in the after life because of their belief on Jesus, it will lead them to live a more moral life? I am sorry. I just do not buy that such a thing is true. The testimony of other Christians who held this view says otherwise. Also, your own testimony of your own words in other places here on the forum says otherwise for me, as well. You have accused me falsely several times for starters.

This is what this thread is all about.
The contradiction of the two messages in Eternal Security or those who think they can willingly sin and still be saved. One message says you can sin and still be saved with no dire consequences to one's soul in the after life and yet the other message says one will live more holy and righteous (even though they say one will always sin in this life as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature).

Overcome sin?
This is simply not the case with those who think they can break God's moral laws and still be in good standing with Him.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, if one says that one is not a true believer if they do not keep the moral law, then one is saying that the the keeping of the moral law does play a part in one's salvation. One is under a law of righteousness. If not, then one should be able to break God's moral laws to the utter most and still be saved.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Now, if you say that a believer will always live holy as a part of being born again, then one must believe one's free will is no longer. But this is simply not the case because men can still sin (Which is something that is not God's will). In fact, speaking of God's will: Why would God allow His people to think they can do evil and yet still be saved or rewarded with the goodness of His Kingdom?


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

The topic of discussion of this thread is Eternal Security actually.
The double message of Eternal Security.
Eternal Security.
It is the topic of this thread.
Please stay on topic.

Thank you.


...

To use ist century lady's words:
Your theology has been whacked!!!
No wonder you now don't want to discuss what you previously could not stop discussing!!!!!!!

You actually believe the ministration of death was OC law that did not include the moral law. Frankly Jason that is absurd. Because I will just repeat. That law could be faultlessly obeyed.
If you walk after the holy spirit he leads you into spiritual truth for he is the Spirit of truth.
And those who have been spiritually enlightened know the ministration of death was the TC for that is the ONLY law written on stone.
So you have been stressing time and time again on this thread and others, the Christian is under righteousness of observing law the Bible( and you quote) states is the ministration of death.
Which is why you do not and cannot practice what you preach.
And so you cannot obey the second greatest commandment, part of the moral law you insist you must obey to be righteous
You have been whacked haven't you. Your beliefs are shown to be gross error. You only have a superfluous understanding of the partial letter at best

 

[stuart lawrence]

Here us what the scripture says about Grace, and what grace teaches us about salvation.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

• For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that:

I believe the Church has been taught some things about grace that may not be true. Teaching people that because we are under grace, that means we can sin, and there will be no consequences, when just the opposite is true, that those who are under grace, are under a stricter obligation, than those who were under the law.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

• how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace, the empowering blessing from God to us to grant us the ability to do what we can not do, without it.

Grace is the Holy Spirit, who teaches us, and comforts us, and empowers us to live in dominion over sin, and the devil.

Grace is God's power within us to live according to the Spirit, in which we practice righteousness, rather than be enslaved by the sin in our flesh.

• For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that:

denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.

• What does your grace teach you?

JLB

Grace is Jesus!

What does grace teach me? I will tell you what it taught me, as I previously have written in this thread and will be happy to do so again.
I grew up in an evangelical/ pentecostal church, and heard sermons every week akin to what you and ist century lady write in this thread. Im sure I've heard more of them than either of you have.
I then became full of all manner of concupiscence( rom7:7) for I tried to attain heaven as Saul the pharisee tried to attain it and got the same result he got.
At the age of fifteen I gave up with God, I had to, I had become utterly sinful, and according to what you wrote I did the correct thing didn't I, for I had not lived soberly, righteously and godly, I had not been able to deny worldly lusts.
Fortunately for me, a few years later someone asked me to read a book. In it was a chapter on Pauls message of grace. I was stunned by what I read, for I had never heard it preached before when I was at the church of my youth. Christ was my righteousness. I had no righteousness of striving to be good enough/ observe the law. I suddenly dared to believe I could actually be a Christian after all for my christianity hinged on what Christ did for mr, not my own personal goodness.
But what of the sin? I had been a slave of a certain sin which strictly speaking broke of the TC for six years, this sin, which concerned lusting was my master and I was its slave. I didn't want it, I wanted to follow Jesus.
I got down on my knees and asked God to deal with it and left it at that. For the next three days I committed this sin which was breaking one of the TC, I was lusting badly. But for the first time in my life I did not let that condemn me. I looked to Christ, and trusted he was my righteousness, not my own personal goodness. A voice in my head relentlessly told me I could not be a Christian and do what I was doing, I was just fooling myself. That voice could have been you couldn't it, quoting those under grace deny worldly lusts and live uprightly. It was so hard to ignore that voice, but I did, I clung to Christ. He was my rightstanding before God.
On the fourth day, this sin I had been a slave to for six years stopped. Praise God. When I listened to endless sermons telling me what you and ist century lady state, the sin only got worse.
So that's what grace taught me:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14
You in effect preach being under the law. For you preach obligation to obeying the law without preaching, nor understanding the true message as to how sin is to be overcome.
As I have many times stated.
Grace is impossible to understand through the intellectual mind.
Only the Holy Spirit can truly turn on the light

 

[stuart lawrence]

Also, if one says that one is not a true believer if they do not keep the moral law, then one is saying that the the keeping of the moral law does play a part in one's salvation. One is under a law of righteousness. If not, then one should be able to break God's moral laws to the utter most and still be saved.


...

And you have perfectly here shown that in your view the believer must observe the law the Bible terms the ministration of death to be righteous before God.

The only reason I respond to your posts is for the benefit of the humble and sincere, who may be new Christians and allow themselves to be duped by your quoting the letter without understand the true spiritual message contained in it.
You quote what the Bible terms is the ministration of death, then insist everyone must live under a law of righteousness concerning it.
And all who agree with your posts show they are blind to the truth as you are

 

[stuart lawrence]

JLB & istcenturylady preach the following:

Become a Christian, the slate is wiped clean. You have been saved by grace, Jesus died for your past sins. You did nothing to earn or deserve your salvation..
However, now you are a Christian you must deny worldly lusts and live soberly and righteously if you want to remain in grace. And of course, they will quote scripture to support their views.
So their views sounds absolutely correct to many dont they .
But what they preach, in truth is this:
Become saved by grace, remain saved under a righteousness of observing the law the Bible terms the ministration of death. For if you do not deny worldly lusts and live uprightly you cannot be saved.
Now just first century lady says the Christian has the Holy Spirit, so they are dead to sin in respect of not committing sin. Well firstly, the spirit cannot help you if you believe you have to perfectly observe the law/ not commit sin in order to remain in grace/ saved. The overwhelming amount of people that end up desperately seeking help from Christian counsellors due to the dire state of their lives went to the type of churches she goes to. Churches that stress the holy spirit. They ended up consumed by sin.
Tell people that once saved, the condition of their salvation is to deny worldly lusts, is to tell them to strive to attain heaven as Saul the pharisee strove to attain it.
Obey: Thou shalt not covet or you will be condemned.
At first glance their reeling off the partial letter may sound correct but it isn't.
So when can you warn people about worldly lusts?a
ONLY when you have FIRSTLY preached the full truth of the message.
But they cannot do that, for then they would think they would be contradicting themselves.
Walk after the Spirit and you then understand the spiritual truth of the message, for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth

 

[stuart lawrence]

.

 

[stuart lawrence]

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away."(2 Corinthians 3:7).

Sounds like this is the Old Testament Law (the Law of Moses) and not New Covenant Law to me.


....

Let's repeat here. The above law, that you quote correctly as the ministration of death is law you categorically insist the Christian is declared righteous by observing. It refers of course to the TC/ moral law
Yet at the same time you claim this law is only old law, not NC law. Yet at the same time you say moral law is NC law

If ever there was conclusive proof of your lack of understanding and contradictions of scripture the above is it.
I've copied your above post. It will come in handy. Every time you want to discuss the subject again
Only you might say you don't remember stating what you have, so you want me to bring forth the post!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Here us what the scripture says about Grace, and what grace teaches us about salvation.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

• For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that:

I believe the Church has been taught some things about grace that may not be true. Teaching people that because we are under grace, that means we can sin, and there will be no consequences, when just the opposite is true, that those who are under grace, are under a stricter obligation, than those who were under the law.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

• how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace, the empowering blessing from God to us to grant us the ability to do what we can not do, without it.

Grace is the Holy Spirit, who teaches us, and comforts us, and empowers us to live in dominion over sin, and the devil.

Grace is God's power within us to live according to the Spirit, in which we practice righteousness, rather than be enslaved by the sin in our flesh.

• For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that:

denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.

• What does your grace teach you?

JLB

BTW

On the one hand you( mistakenly) quote the Bible to say the TC got abolished, then in another post you quote the TC as examples of you not committing sin/ obeying the law.
Many years back I was in error. I also used to say the law got abolished. One Christian was aghast. He told me that was heresy( his words not mine)
Not being a know it all I was prepared to consider what he was saying. I came to realise I was wrong.
It's always good to be able to admit when we are wrong.
The law comes in two parts. The law itself you must obey, and the attached penalty for disobedience.
One of those two got abolished, not the other.
Christians have a saviour from their sins/ transgressions of the law. Christ paid their penalty. But the law itself that states:
You must love God with all your heart, not murder, steal, covet etc remains unshakeable, God will not, nor would he abolish that LAW. He transferred them onto tablets of human hearts from tablets of stone(2cor3:3)

Hence:
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS( not full stop) for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To use ist century lady's words:
Your theology has been whacked!!!

What is this reply have to do with what I said about your replies here being off topic?
You said you are unwilling to discuss Eternal Security and yet that is what this thread is about.

As for your insulting statement towards my belief in God's Word: Well, I do not agree with your opinion or belief because God is good and He has moral standards. Also, I have gotten many silent answers on your end with verses I have brought forth and many insults instead of you just sticking with Scripture with love and respect.

No wonder you now don't want to discuss what you previously could not stop discussing!!!!!!!

It is possible I may have missed your point, but in our past dealings, when I answered your post with Scripture before, I noticed it is not good enough for you. Sometimes you act like I didn't answer and you falsely accuse me.

You actually believe the ministration of death was OC law that did not include the moral law.

No. The moral law has always existed.
People died spiritually for breaking the moral law even in the Old Covenant, too.
The same thing happens today under the New Covenant.

Frankly Jason that is absurd. Because I will just repeat. That law could be faultlessly obeyed.

This is simply not true. 1 Timothy 1:15 and Romans 7:14-24 says otherwise (as I said before).

If you walk after the holy spirit he leads you into spiritual truth for he is the Spirit of truth.

I am not in disagreement with this truth as stated in Scripture.
I just do not agree that this works with your particular belief that is unbiblical because God is good and God has moral standards.

And those who have been spiritually enlightened know the ministration of death was the TC for that is the ONLY law written on stone.

The moral law written on stones were attached with death penalties. In other words, the Old Testament also carried laws on capital punishment if you disobeyed certain moral laws. This is not the case under the New Covenant. That is why Paul says it was a ministration of death. You could physically be killed for disobeying the Law of Moses. This is evident even when Jesus came. The pharisees wanted to stone a woman caught in the act of adultery, but that did not happen because of Jesus.

However, spiritual death is still the result for disobeying the moral law.
See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8.

So you have been stressing time and time again on this thread and others, the Christian is under righteousness of observing law the Bible( and you quote) states is the ministration of death.

1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous.

Which is why you do not and cannot practice what you preach.

I already explained this to you, but you do not want to listen.

And so you cannot obey the second greatest commandment, part of the moral law you insist you must obey to be righteous

So you are God to know my life?

You have been whacked haven't you.

Why are you repeating yourself?

Your beliefs are shown to be gross error. You only have a superfluous understanding of the partial letter at best

Thank you for the insult.

May the Lord's love shine upon you.



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's repeat here. The above law, that you quote correctly as the ministration of death is law you categorically insist the Christian is declared righteous by observing. It refers of course to the TC/ moral law
Yet at the same time you claim this law is only old law, not NC law. Yet at the same time you say moral law is NC law

If ever there was conclusive proof of your lack of understanding and contradictions of scripture the above is it.
I've copied your above post. It will come in handy. Every time you want to discuss the subject again
Only you might say you don't remember stating what you have, so you want me to bring forth the post!

A little less opinion and more Scripture please.

May God's good ways be upon you today.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And you have perfectly here shown that in your view the believer must observe the law the Bible terms the ministration of death to be righteous before God.

As I stated before, not all sin leads to death (1 John 5:16-17).

The only reason I respond to your posts is for the benefit of the humble and sincere, who may be new Christians and allow themselves to be duped by your quoting the letter without understand the true spiritual message contained in it.

Well, I do not see how sincerity or humbleness has anything to do with a belief that says we can break the moral law with no consequences to our souls in the after life if we simply have a belief on Jesus. Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

You quote what the Bible terms is the ministration of death, then insist everyone must live under a law of righteousness concerning it.

I believe Paul was talking about obedience to the Law of Moses and not all law.
For the context tells us this. For Paul speaks against circumcision (See Romans 3:1, and Galatians 5:2).
Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law.
Nowhere does Paul say the same of the moral law.
In fact, Paul says that if one breaks the moral law they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Ephesians 5:5).

And all who agree with your posts show they are blind to the truth as you are

Thank you for the insult.
We will be praying for you.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Stuart:

You said before you are not willing to discuss Eternal Security.
Yet, that is what this thread topic is about because it is in reference to discussing the double message of Eternal Security.
I will ask you kindly to leave this thread, unless of course you are willing to change your mind so as to talk about Eternal Security. Please have respect for the rules of this site by talking elsewhere (if you do not want to talk about Eternal Security).
Otherwise you are simply being disruptive to the thread topic.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.



...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Dear Stuart:

You said before you are not willing to discuss Eternal Security.
Yet, that is what this thread topic is about because it is in reference to discussing the double message of Eternal Security.
I will ask you kindly to leave this thread, unless of course you are willing to change your mind so as to talk about Eternal Security. Please have respect for the rules of this site by talking elsewhere (if you do not want to talk about Eternal Security).
Otherwise you are simply being disruptive to the thread topic.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.



...

Lol
You have e been more than happy to discuss righteousness of observing the law until now. And you have been more than happy in this thread to discuss with me knowing countless times I have told you I don't discuss OSAS.
But now your belief has totally crumbled, you are desperate to avoid discussing what previously you were only too eager to discuss

I repeat. Why do you insist the Christian is under a righteousness of observing law you quote as beung the ministration of death?

 

[stuart lawrence]

A little less opinion and more Scripture please.

May God's good ways be upon you today.


...

You quoted the scripture Jason concerning the ministration of death written on stone.
And you insist the Christian is under a righteousness of observing the law written on stone, which scripture states is the ministry of death

 

[stuart lawrence]

As I stated before, not all sin leads to death (1 John 5:16-17).



Well, I do not see how sincerity or humbleness has anything to do with a belief that says we can break the moral law with no consequences to our souls in the after life if we simply have a belief on Jesus. Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).



I believe Paul was talking about obedience to the Law of Moses and not all law.
For the context tells us this. For Paul speaks against circumcision (See Romans 3:1, and Galatians 5:2).
Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law.
Nowhere does Paul say the same of the moral law.
In fact, Paul says that if one breaks the moral law they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Ephesians 5:5).



Thank you for the insult.
We will be praying for you.


...

Jason, you are like a petulant child. You think you know much, and when your error is shown to you, you have to try and argue or reason anything rather than admit you are wrong.
For you cannot bring yourself to admit to error can you.

 

[stuart lawrence]

What is this reply have to do with what I said about your replies here being off topic?
You said you are unwilling to discuss Eternal Security and yet that is what this thread is about.

As for your insulting statement towards my belief in God's Word: Well, I do not agree with your opinion or belief because God is good and He has moral standards. Also, I have gotten many silent answers on your end with verses I have brought forth and many insults instead of you just sticking with Scripture with love and respect.



It is possible I may have missed your point, but in our past dealings, when I answered your post with Scripture before, I noticed it is not good enough for you. Sometimes you act like I didn't answer and you falsely accuse me.



No. The moral law has always existed.
People died spiritually for breaking the moral law even in the Old Covenant, too.
The same thing happens today under the New Covenant.



This is simply not true. 1 Timothy 1:15 and Romans 7:14-24 says otherwise (as I said before).



I am not in disagreement with this truth as stated in Scripture.
I just do not agree that this works with your particular belief that is unbiblical because God is good and God has moral standards.



The moral law written on stones were attached with death penalties. In other words, the Old Testament also carried laws on capital punishment if you disobeyed certain moral laws. This is not the case under the New Covenant. That is why Paul says it was a ministration of death. You could physically be killed for disobeying the Law of Moses. This is evident even when Jesus came. The pharisees wanted to stone a woman caught in the act of adultery, but that did not happen because of Jesus.

However, spiritual death is still the result for disobeying the moral law.
See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8.



1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous.



I already explained this to you, but you do not want to listen.



So you are God to know my life?



Why are you repeating yourself?



Thank you for the insult.

May the Lord's love shine upon you.



...

Hopeless.


As I said, I only reply to your posts in case a new Christian reads them and doesn't realise you reel off the letter from your head demanding of others what you do not demand of yourself. Your demands have no bearing on the reality of your own life.
You are not alone Jason, there are so many like you sadly, but they don't so much land in the glaring mess you have landed in here

 

[stuart lawrence]

What is this reply have to do with what I said about your replies here being off topic?
You said you are unwilling to discuss Eternal Security and yet that is what this thread is about.

As for your insulting statement towards my belief in God's Word: Well, I do not agree with your opinion or belief because God is good and He has moral standards. Also, I have gotten many silent answers on your end with verses I have brought forth and many insults instead of you just sticking with Scripture with love and respect.



It is possible I may have missed your point, but in our past dealings, when I answered your post with Scripture before, I noticed it is not good enough for you. Sometimes you act like I didn't answer and you falsely accuse me.



No. The moral law has always existed.
People died spiritually for breaking the moral law even in the Old Covenant, too.
The same thing happens today under the New Covenant.



This is simply not true. 1 Timothy 1:15 and Romans 7:14-24 says otherwise (as I said before).



I am not in disagreement with this truth as stated in Scripture.
I just do not agree that this works with your particular belief that is unbiblical because God is good and God has moral standards.



The moral law written on stones were attached with death penalties. In other words, the Old Testament also carried laws on capital punishment if you disobeyed certain moral laws. This is not the case under the New Covenant. That is why Paul says it was a ministration of death. You could physically be killed for disobeying the Law of Moses. This is evident even when Jesus came. The pharisees wanted to stone a woman caught in the act of adultery, but that did not happen because of Jesus.

However, spiritual death is still the result for disobeying the moral law.
See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8.



1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous.



I already explained this to you, but you do not want to listen.



So you are God to know my life?



Why are you repeating yourself?



Thank you for the insult.

May the Lord's love shine upon you.



...

And your logic here is unbelievable.
You believe Paul stated the law on stone was the ministration of death because you could be physically killed for breaking it

But you don't now believe it is the ministration of death because you cannot be physically killed for breaking it, although breaking it does result in spiritual death.

Have you heard of john McEnroe?
You cannot be serious

 

[stuart lawrence]

The letter written on stone kills if you live under. It still kills. Paul wasn't referring to physical death but spiritual death when he said the letter kills, the law in stone is the ministry of death and condemnation.
The internet is amusing at times, though also tragic. Only one commandment truly matters for many:
Thou shalt not admit to error