The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[JLB777]

Do you not understand, your deeds, your thoughts, your words are the works of the flesh.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5


Those who live according to the Spirit, are led by the Spirit of God within them, in which their thoughts, words, and deeds, come from a renewed mind, which springs forth from the mind of Christ.

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2


Those who have put forth the effort to renew their minds, have the ability to prove, discern, and know what the will of God is, that they may think, speak, and do what God's will is: Righteousness.

Practicing righteousness.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


Christians who never apply themselves to understanding, and study to show themselves approved to God, will be deceived, because they never diligently put forth the effort to seek God, or to renew their minds, or to: add to their faith... to love the truth.


But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9

• he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,

JLB

 

[JLB777]

You are NOT declared righteous by striving not to commit sin.

How many scriptures do you want concerning that?

Correct. Agreed.

We are declared righteous, by faith: the obedience of faith, a faith working by love.

Understanding what faith is, and how the law of faith works, is a good thing for us to discuss.


A faith that does not obey, is a faith that does not save; being dead, and unable to produce a divine result.


20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2;20-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works

The work was not the "works of the law", nor was it a "work that earns", but the work being referred to here, was the corresponding work of obedience, to do what God spoke to him to do: which was offer Isaac on the altar.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• for the obedience of faith

Faith without the corresponding action or work of obedience is dead.

Work = The effort obedience requires.



JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, let's not keep repeating points we already went over. I told you before about 1 John 5:16-17 and Matthew 23:23. Not all sin is the same. 1 John 2:4 is in reference to serious sins that lead to death. Just read the context of John's epistle. John makes no mention of minor transgressions as the breaking of God's commands leading to spiritual death. John says in 1 John 3:15 that if you do not love your brother, no eternal life abides in you. This is the context of what he is talking about. The moral law (See Romans 13:8-10). If you want to wear horse blinders and see something in Scripture that is not stated, then by all means go ahead and do that.


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Under a law of righteousness all sin leads to death. You failed the pass mark to be righteous

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, Romans 3 is talking about Justification in Christ and it is talking about we are not under the Old Law anymore. We all need to be justified by Christ (apart from works) and be initially saved by Jesus and not by circumcision.

Romans 3:11 blows your interpretation on Romans 3 out of the water.
It says that the same individuals who have fallen short of the glory of God and has sinned also does not have any understanding and does not seek after God. So if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 to be talking about the faithful saint in their present tense walk with Christ and not initial salvation, then you must conclude that the faithful saint has no understanding and does not seek after God.


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They will be ever seeing but never perceiving
Ever hearing but never understanding

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, I see those who use grace as a license to sin as wearing rose colored glasses. They only read what they want to believe, and all the warnings they can't see, let alone understand.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Those who in their hearts truly love God don't need to concentrate on any warnings, it is the rest who do

 

[stuart lawrence]

Correct. Agreed.

We are declared righteous, by faith: the obedience of faith, a faith working by love.

Understanding what faith is, and how the law of faith works, is a good thing for us to discuss.


A faith that does not obey, is a faith that does not save; being dead, and unable to produce a divine result.


20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2;20-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works

The work was not the "works of the law", nor was it a "work that earns", but the work being referred to here, was the corresponding work of obedience, to do what God spoke to him to do: which was offer Isaac on the altar.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• for the obedience of faith

Faith without the corresponding action or work of obedience is dead.

Work = The effort obedience requires.



JLB

I have previously stated if an alcoholic who beats his wife, and is a habitual thief who constantly uses fouls language claims to have become a Christian, and a couple of months later nothing has changed, he proves he had dead faith. He was never truly born again in the first place
So I guess we agree.

Grace us a hard thing to understand, impossible through the human intellect.
For the whole of your life, from first to last you must live under a righteousness apart from observing the law.
The person who does this, and has asked Christ to be Lord and Saviour of their life, and in their heart truly loves God, has no need to fear warnings in scripture, or be told of the need to do works.
There is nothing more they will in their heart want to do than to please and obey God, for they live him.
For these people the power of sin is broken in their lives, for the power of sin is the law( of righteousness) 1cor15:56
The people who need to remind themselves they need to do good works are those who have not surrendered their lives to Christ and in their hearts do not truly love him above all else. And they are also the people who need to heed the warnings of scripture

 

[stuart lawrence]

Just to reaffirm. Jason insists when Paul states no one will be justified by observing the law, he insists Paul is referring to law he could faultlessly obey.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The context is talking about how they are no longer under the Law of Moses anymore.
They eat can eat unclean animals, and not be circumcised, and are not obligated to follow all the sabbath and holy days for the laws given to Israel (i.e. the Law of Moses). They have a liberty in Christ now that they did not have before. For Scripture says Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. This is not talking about the moral law. For many passages in the New Testament talk about how the moral law (and it's punishment in the after life for disobying it) is still in effect (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Revelation 21:8).

1 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:1-2).

The context is verse 2. It talks about circumcision (Which is an Old Testament Command or Law). So verse 1 is talking about the Law of Moses and not all law.

For if you were to skip down to verses 19-21, it talks about how the moral law is still in effect and that disobeying the moral law will cause one not to inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21). Those who walk after the Spirit (and have the fruits of the Spirit) are not under the law. If one is sinning, they do not have the fruits of the Spirit and therefore they are under the law and it's full weight of punishment.


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How in the world were those ordinances against anyone? People who didn't love God could faultlessly obey them.
You are stumbling around blindly in the dark Jason, unable to see the true way

For anyone interested in the truth. The ordinances Jason mentioned didn't condemn, it was the moral law that did

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Under a law of righteousness all sin leads to death. You failed the pass mark to be righteous

Scripture says otherwise.

"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17).


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[stuart lawrence]

Scripture says otherwise.

"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17).


...

Under a law of righteousness any sin condemns.
John didn't live under a law of righteousness

 

[stuart lawrence]

For whoever keeps the WHOLE law yet stumbles at JUST ONE POINT is guilty of breaking all of it
James2:10

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How in the world were those ordinances against anyone? People who didn't love God could faultlessly obey them.
You are stumbling around blindly in the dark Jason, unable to see the true way

For anyone interested in the truth. The ordinances Jason mentioned didn't condemn, it was the moral law that did

It is written...

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

Love is merely a part of the moral law (See Romans 13:8-10).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Under a law of righteousness any sin condemns.
John didn't live under a law of righteousness

What is the sin that does not lead unto death?


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is written...

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

Love is merely a part of the moral law (See Romans 13:8-10).


...

Why do I tarry with you Jason
Scripture tells us the letter that kills was the letter of the moral law/TC. It was that law that was the ministry of death and condemnation

 

[stuart lawrence]

What is the sin that does not lead unto death?


...

The world's sin is unbelief in me
john16:9

Think about it

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why do I tarry with you Jason
Scripture tells us the letter that kills was the letter of the moral law/TC. It was that law that was the ministry of death and condemnation

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away."(2 Corinthians 3:7).

Sounds like this is the Old Testament Law (the Law of Moses) and not New Covenant Law to me.


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[Bible Highlighter]

The world's sin is unbelief in me
john16:9

Think about it

Unbelief is not only in the person of Jesus but in the teachings of Jesus, too.
For if you believed in a Jesus that told you to jump off of a bridge, that would be another Jesus.
The Jesus of the Bible commands us to do many things (and not obeying these commands has dire after life consequences for anyone).

Think about it.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Stuart:

So you are saying the sin not unto death (in 1 John 5) is any sin that a believer does while they have a belief on Jesus?



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[stuart lawrence]

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away."(2 Corinthians 3:7).

Sounds like this is the Old Testament Law (the Law of Moses) and not New Covenant Law to me.


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The only law written on stone was the TC, law you believe the christian is under unto righteousness.
Old law and NC law