The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[stuart lawrence]

For I would not have known lust except the law had said: thou shalt not covet
Rom7:7

Jason might like to tell us if Paul was referring in the above to law that exists under the NC.

A simple yes or no would suffice.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Then we can clear up the issue regarding Jason's continued statements that rom ch7 solely refers to non applicable OC law

 

[stuart lawrence]

It would seem to me, a humble person, one who sought to obey Gods laws, would simply admit to error when they have made it.
Would it be so hard to simply state:

Yes, Romans chapter 7 refers specifically to applicable NC law.

Is it not important to affirm the truth of scripture?
What impedes that being done?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul did not know about New Covenant Law as a Pharisee in his struggle in trying to keep the Old Law in Romans 7:14-24. Yes, it so happens that it was also a New Covenant Law he struggled with keeping. But Paul in no way is saying the command to "do not covet" is abrogated. He makes this fact clear in Ephesians 5:5. In Romans 3:1 and Galatians 5:2 Paul condemns the old command of circumcision or "circumcision salvationism" (Which is a part of the Old Law). This is why Paul says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). Paul's point is that we are not under the Old Law and that by trying to stay under that Old Law and Old way without Jesus, one is going to never overcome sin in this life. For there are laws on animal sacrifices that no longer apply anymore because Jesus is our sacrifice. But to suggest that the keeping of all laws or commands (salvation wise) are abrogated under the New Testament is silly. 1 John 3:23 says that we are to believe on Jesus as Christ gave us commandment. If we are not under commands or laws, then we are not under 1 John 3:23, too. But this is clearly not the case. There are laws that are still applicable to keep (salvation wise) for the believer today.


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[stuart lawrence]

Paul did not know about New Covenant Law as a Pharisee in his struggle in trying to keep the Old Law in Romans 7:14-24. Yes, it so happens that it was also a New Covenant Law he struggled with keeping. But Paul in no way is saying the command to "do not covet" is abrogated. He makes this fact clear in Ephesians 5:5. In Romans 3:1 and Galatians 5:2 Paul condemns the old command of circumcision or "circumcision salvationism" (Which is a part of the Old Law). This is why Paul says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). Paul's point is that we are not under the Old Law and that by trying to stay under that Old Law and Old way without Jesus, one is going to never overcome sin in this life. For there are laws on animal sacrifices that no longer apply anymore because Jesus is our sacrifice. But to suggest all laws or commands are abrogated under the New Testament is silly. 1 John 3:23 says that we are to believe on Jesus as Christ gave us commandment. If we are not under commands or laws, then we are not under 1 John 3:23, too. But this is clearly not the case. There are laws that are still applicable to keep (salvation wise) for the believer today.


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Do you now admit rom ch7 refers specifically to applicable NC law?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, but Paul did not know about this NT Law yet and he did not know Jesus yet.
Romans 7:4 that says we have died to the Law is not in view of this New Covenant command that says for us to "not covet" because Paul says elsewhere that those who covet will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Ephesians 5:5). In fact, we know that Paul is not referring to us having "died to the law" (Romans 7:4) as in reference to New Covenant Law because he says in Romans 7:6 that we are to serve in newness of Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. To see how this serving of newness of spirit works, see Romans 8:3-4 and then compare with Romans 13:8-10. For one of the fruits of the Spirit is love (See Galatians 5:22).


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[Bible Highlighter]

If one is sinning, or if one is justifying a sin and still be saved doctrine, they do not have the fruits of love because they are hating their neighbor by coveting, hating, etc.


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[stuart lawrence]

All along I have said, that in my own life over decades, I have noticed that those who most earnestly insist you must obey the law to be righteous, are people who least reflect what Christ termed the higher points of the law.

Now Jason proves the point well.
He has repeatedly stated rom ch7 solely refers to non applicable OC law.
That is plainly untrue.

You would think a humble person who in their heart truly wanted to obey God would simply respond:

Yes I was wrong.

So far Jason appears reluctant to do that

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Stuart:

You are not reading what I have written.
You are in a feed back loop of error of seeing only what you want to see.
Romans 7:4 is not referring to New Covenant Law or all law.
Romans 7:6 says we are to SERVE in NEWNESS of Spirit and NOT in the OLDNESS of the LETTER.
Ephesians 5:5 says that a covetous man will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
So no, Paul is NOT saying the New Covenant law that says, "Do not covet" is abrogated.


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[stuart lawrence]

I hope those, who in naivety believe these people who insist you must observe the law to be righteous before God, actually practice what they preach take note here.

Jason is desperate trying to go all round the houses to avoid Admitting to error.

Those who come on the internet and earnestly stress you must observe a law of righteousness are nearly always full of the sin of pride, and hypocrisy

 

[stuart lawrence]

Of course, Jason neither understands the NC, or rom ch7, that is plain from many of his comments.

Is: thou shalt not covet
Applicable NC law?
Absolutely

Are Christians under a righteousness of observing the commandment:
Thou shalt not covet

Absolutely not, as rom ch7 clearly shows us.

However, if you cannot bring yourself to admit to error before others, how can you understand spiritual truth?
God exalts the humble, but....

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm sorry, but you gotta be blind not to understand:
Thou shalt not covet is part of the law being referred to in rom ch7:4-6

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinfull passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death
Verse5

For I would not have known lust, except the law had said: thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the Commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Verse7

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All laws (applicable for their time) are righteous. Also, Ephesians 5:5 shows that the moral law is necessary to keep as a part of our salvation.


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[stuart lawrence]

All laws (applicable for their time) are righteous. Ephesians 5:5 shows that you are in error in regards to the moral law being necessary to keep as a part of our salvation.


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Jason, you are not here to seek glory for God, but praise from men

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Stuart:

Thank you for the false accusation.
I will rejoice in God my Saviour (Jesus Christ).

Anyways, may the Lord's love shine upon you this fine day today.


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[Christian Counseling Help]

So lets just cut to the chase, are you too claiming no good works necessary to get into heaven, and bad works cannot keep us out as long as we believe?

nope, didn't say that. i said it was a fine line between good works and a proper state of the heart. the narrow path. relying too much on good works is self-righteousness and we cannot save ourselves this way.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 3:7 says,

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”


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[Bible Highlighter]

nope, didn't say that. i said it was a fine line between good works and a proper state of the heart. the narrow path. relying too much on good works is self-righteousness and we cannot save ourselves this way.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.


Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


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[Kenny'sID]

nope, didn't say that. i said it was a fine line between good works and a proper state of the heart. the narrow path. relying too much on good works is self-righteousness and we cannot save ourselves this way.

Didn't say, or think you did, I just asked. As long as someone believes in Christs as their savior, I think it would be hard to do to many good works. And as I understand it, those works are rewarded on an individual basis so, all the more reason.

Sounds like you have a grasp on things. It's not complicated, do as the bible says and don't dump any part of the bible because it makes things easier. Also, if we choose to go into denial for our own selfish reasons, something that happens so much these says because it's so easy to get others to share in our delusions , don't teach those chosen delusions to others, it'll make things that much worse in the end.

 

[1stcenturylady]

While I am not a big Dan Corner fan, he does make a great eye opening point here in regards to this "Double Message within Eternal Security."

To see what I am talking about, here is a video debate between Dan Corner and Mark Driscoll.

Mark Driscoll Mars Hill Church Dan Corner Debate


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Hi Jason, when I got into the second video, I couldn't see that it was a debate, but the commentator voicing his opinion on sound bites. You can't see from those bites what the context was. Who was Mark Driscoll actually debating with that you don't hear? I have to say I hate sarcasm and that was mainly what Dan Corner was doing. I couldn't stomach listening to more, even though I'm not Calvinist and probably would agree with him.