The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[stuart lawrence]

Pauls core message can be summed up as:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law( of righteousness) but under grace( a righteousness of faith in Christ)
Rom6:14

For:

The power of sin is the law 1cor15:56

In rom ch7 therefore, Paul tells his readers they must die to the law in order to live for God.
They have been released from the law and serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code/ law
Paul then goes on to give a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was. Thou shalt not covet.

Many, are unwilling to understand the message. They say righteousness apart from the law is a licence to sin.
That wasn't Pauls belief:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith?(a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
Rom3:31

However, as Jesus stated:

Many after drinking the old wine don't want the new, for they say: The old is better
Luke5:39

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, when I got into the second video, I couldn't see that it was a debate, but the commentator voicing his opinion on sound bites. You can't see from those bites what the context was. Who was Mark Driscoll actually debating with that you don't hear? I have to say I hate sarcasm and that was mainly what Dan Corner was doing. I couldn't stomach listening to more, even though I'm not Calvinist and probably would agree with him.

Hi 1stcenturylady.
Good day to you.
I was actually wondering how you were doing today before I seen your post.
I hope you are doing well.

Anyways, to get down to business:
Yeah, I am not a big fan of Dan Corner because of his overly critical style. In fact, I disagree strongly that he makes a list of Eternal Security proponents and then he slams them. The problem I have with that is that they could repent today and then no longer be on his list. We also have to love them, too. Pray for them. It does not seem like he is suggesting that. But while I may not like his overly critical nature, I cannot help but to see that he is showing a two fold message of Eternal Security. This is something that I was not consciously aware of. For I never really thought much about it. While I dislike Dan Corner's critical style, he does make a good point in regards to Mark Driscol like most other Eternal Security proponents out there.

Yeah, and I agree. It was not much of a debate. He was merely talking with Mark briefly at times. In either case, whether he is overly critical or not his words are true in regards to what most Eternal Security proponents say.

One message of Eternal Security says that believers are defined as living more Christ like and more holy. Yet, the other message of Eternal Security contradicts this by saying that a believer can get drunk and sleep with prostitutes and be saved during those sins as long as it is done on occasion and not as a lifestyle. Gotquestions article on Eternal Security gives us a two fold message, as well. It says that a believer who backslides is saved while in their backslidden state but yet they also say a believer is characterized as living holy. They contradict themselves. They give us two messages that does not make any sense.

In any event, may your day be great in the Lord today.
It is good to see you again.
God bless you.


...

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hi 1stcenturylady.
Good day to you.
I was actually wondering how you were doing today before I seen your post.
I hope you are doing well.

Anyways, to get down to business:
Yeah, I am not a big fan of Dan Corner because of his overly critical style. In fact, I disagree strongly that he makes a list of Eternal Security proponents and then he slams them. The problem I have with that is that they could repent today and then no longer be on his list. We also have to love them, too. Pray for them. It does not seem like he is suggesting that. But while I may not like his overly critical nature, I cannot help but to see that he is showing a two fold message of Eternal Security. This is something that I was not consciously aware of. For I never really thought much about it. While I dislike Dan Corner's critical style, he does make a good point in regards to Mark Driscol like most other Eternal Security proponents out there.

Yeah, and I agree. It was not much of a debate. He was merely talking with Mark briefly at times. In either case, whether he is overly critical or not his words are true in regards to what most Eternal Security proponents say.

One message of Eternal Security says that believers are defined as living more Christ like and more holy. Yet, the other message of Eternal Security contradicts this by saying that a believer can get drunk and sleep with prostitutes and be saved during those sins as long as it is done on occasion and not as a lifestyle. Gotquestions article on Eternal Security gives us a two fold message, as well. It says that a believer who backslides is saved while in their backslidden state but yet they also say a believer is characterized as living holy. They contradict themselves. They give us two messages that does not make any sense.

In any event, may your day be great in the Lord today.
It is good to see you again.
God bless you.


...

There is one verse that I've always had a problem with that is pro-Calvinism. What does 1 Corinthians 5:5 mean to you? Does destruction of his "flesh" mean his carnal nature, or his body?

 

[Neogaia777]

There is one verse that I've always had a problem with that is pro-Calvinism. What does 1 Corinthians 5:5 mean to you? Does destruction of his "flesh" mean his carnal nature, or his body?

Both, because it can only really end "all" of the sins of the or associated with the flesh nature, in this world especially, when this fleshly body dies and we become something else only then can we be truly free from the flesh and it's lusts...

 

[Neogaia777]

There is one verse that I've always had a problem with that is pro-Calvinism. What does 1 Corinthians 5:5 mean to you? Does destruction of his "flesh" mean his carnal nature, or his body?

1 Corinthians 5:5, is what happened to Jesus, so that we might not, "Might not", have to go through the same thing but be spared, for believers in Christ...

Or the man it's talking about handing him over to Satan so that through the process of the destruction of the flesh, his spirit might be saved...

 

[1stcenturylady]

1 Corinthians 5:5, is what happened to Jesus, so that we might not, "Might not", have to go through the same thing but be spared, for believers in Christ...

Or the man it's talking about handing him over to Satan so that through the process of the destruction of the flesh, his spirit might be saved...

but which flesh - carnal nature, or body in death

 

[Neogaia777]

but which flesh - carnal nature, or body in death

The carnal/fleshly nature can only truly die when you physically die in or with this fleshly/carnal physical body...

 

[Neogaia777]

The carnal/fleshly nature can only truly die when you physically die in or with this fleshly/carnal physical body...

The great deception is thinking you can... and can somehow be "like God" in that way...

 

[1stcenturylady]

The carnal/fleshly nature can only truly die when you physically die in or with this fleshly/carnal physical body...

I don't believe that. That would be being in the flesh, and you aren't if you walk in the Spirit. We are dead to sin if we are walking in Christ.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't believe that. That would be being in the flesh, and you aren't if you walk in the Spirit. We are dead to sin if we are walking in Christ.

Paul still struggled with the flesh even though he had the Holy Spirit... And he suggests that we all do if were honest...

Why do you still sin sometimes...? Is it not because of this physical body, and only being free of it will get rid of sin completely... Not saying that we can't improve, we should improve, but not ever perfect in this world, and that is just the truth and not a deception and is no lie...

God Bless!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi everyone, just some thoughts from God's Word.

I believe that Eternal security is a dangerous doctrine that teaches that you cannot be lost or fall away from Jesus. But the Word of God is very clear on this subject. A friend shared these a while ago. I hope this may be a blessing to others who believe the Word.

May the Spirit of God open your eyes to the below, so that if you are in error, you may repent and get on board with the will of God and preach truth on this matter. Its not about pridefully defending your position. It's about the truth.

Colossians 1v21-23

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-These were believers above
-They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
-this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.

Other evidences:

Luke 22 v31-32

31 And the Lord said,[c] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”


Now what is plain to see is this:
-If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

1 Timothy 2 v18-20

18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


2 Timothy 2 v16-19
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

Now what is plain to see is this:
-its possible to stray concerning the truth
-its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
-faith can be overthrown.
-these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
-sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.

Jude
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for.
-by not contending for this, it can be lost.

2 Timothy 4v7-8

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Paul, writer of most of the New Testament, fought the good fight. Finished the course. And KEPT the faith.
-why would it be necessary for him to write about "kept the faith" if it wasn't possible to have lost faith.

1 John 5v4
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Our faith is what overcomes the world. We are supposed to OVERCOME THE WORLD.
-What is the world? (definition:1 John 2v16 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world).

Revelation 2v10b
10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
-Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
-the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.


The word is very clear - its to him who overcomes:
Revelation 2v7b To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life
Revelation 2v11b He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
Revelation 2v17b To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
Revelation 2v26 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Revelation 3v5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life
Revelation 3v12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
Revelation 3v21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne


Now to those who lose the faith. Who once had the faith yet turned their backs on Christ, we have the subject matter of the 'other' thread. Which is clearly visible for all to see below:

Hebrews 6v4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


Now what is plain to see is this:
-Let there no no illusions that these were believers, and were once in the faith.
-once they "fall away" (and we can see that this is a very real risk warned about by the NT writers, as well as Jesus) to be renewed again unto repentance. (Chris1975)

God bless you all

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is one verse that I've always had a problem with that is pro-Calvinism. What does 1 Corinthians 5:5 mean to you? Does destruction of his "flesh" mean his carnal nature, or his body?

I see 1 Corinthians 5:5 as a form of physical chastening so that this unrepentant sinning believer can be corrected so as to repent.

Barnes Notes on the Bible says this:

For the destruction of the flesh - We may observe here:

(1) That this does not mean that the man was to die under the infliction of the censure, for the object was to recover him; and it is evident that, whatever he suffered as the consequence of this, he survived it, and Paul again instructed the Corinthians to admit him to their fellowship, 2 Corinthians 2:7.

(2) it was designed to punish him for licentiousness of life - often called in the Scriptures one of the sins, or works of the flesh Galatians 5:19, and the design was that the punishment should follow "in the line of the offence," or be a just retribution - as punishment often does. Many have supposed that by the "destruction of the flesh" Paul meant only the destruction of his fleshly appetites or carnal affections; and that he supposed that this would be effected by the act of excommunication. But it is very evident from the Scriptures that the apostles were imbued with the power of inflicting diseases or bodily calamities for crimes. See Acts 13:11; 1 Corinthians 11:30. What this bodily malady was we have no means of knowing. It is evident that it was not of very long duration, since when the apostle exhorts them 2 Corinthians 2:7 again to receive him, there is no mention made of his suffering then under it - This was an extraordinary and miraculous power. It was designed for the government of the church in its infancy, when everything was suited to show the direct agency of God; and it ceased, doubtless, with the apostles. The church now has no such power. It cannot now work miracles; and all its discipline now is to be moral discipline, designed not to inflict bodily pain and penalties, but to work a moral reformation in the offender.

That the spirit may be saved - That his soul might be saved; that he might be corrected, humbled, and reformed by these sufferings, and recalled to the paths of piety and virtue. This expresses the true design of the discipline of the church, and it ought never to be inflicted but with a direct intention to benefit the offender, and to save the soul. Even when he is cut off and disowned, the design should not be vengeance, or punishment merely, but it should be to recover him and save him from ruin.

I hope this helps.
And may God bless you greatly this fine day.


Side Note:

Sometimes the word "flesh" can refer to the sinful nature and other times it can refer to physical bodies.


Quoted Source:
1 Corinthians 5 Barnes' Notes


...

 

[Neogaia777]

Eternal security is a dangerous doctrine that teaches that you cannot be lost or fall away from Jesus. A friend shared these a while ago.

May the Spirit of God open your eyes to the below, so that if you are in error, you may repent and get on board with the will of God and preach truth on this matter. Its not about pridefully defending your position. It's about the truth.

Colossians 1v21-23

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-These were believers above
-They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
-this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.

Other evidences:

Luke 22 v31-32

31 And the Lord said,[c] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”


Now what is plain to see is this:
-If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

1 Timothy 2 v18-20

18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


2 Timothy 2 v16-19
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

Now what is plain to see is this:
-its possible to stray concerning the truth
-its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
-faith can be overthrown.
-these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
-sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.

Jude
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for.
-by not contending for this, it can be lost.

2 Timothy 4v7-8

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Paul, writer of most of the New Testament, fought the good fight. Finished the course. And KEPT the faith.
-why would it be necessary for him to write about "kept the faith" if it wasn't possible to have lost faith.

1 John 5v4
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Our faith is what overcomes the world. We are supposed to OVERCOME THE WORLD.
-What is the world? (definition:1 John 2v16 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world).

Revelation 2v10b
10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
-Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
-the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.


The word is very clear - its to him who overcomes:
Revelation 2v7b To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life
Revelation 2v11b He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
Revelation 2v17b To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
Revelation 2v26 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Revelation 3v5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life
Revelation 3v12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
Revelation 3v21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne


Now to those who lose the faith. Who once had the faith yet turned their backs on Christ, we have the subject matter of the 'other' thread. Which is clearly visible for all to see below:

Hebrews 6v4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


Now what is plain to see is this:
-Let there no no illusions that these were believers, and were once in the faith.
-once they "fall away" (and we can see that this is a very real risk warned about by the NT writers, as well as Jesus) to be renewed again unto repentance. (Chris1975)

God bless you all

They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)

Paul would rather have gloried in his weaknesses, than be a hypocrite... I feel like I may do that...

No mention of sin or sinlessness in this, or in "any" of this you shared, if one is ready to make his defense by being honest and not hypocritical and really does feel he is being genuinely honest and not lying... Then...?

Were all sinners, only sinners even need a savior BTW...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)

Paul would rather have gloried in his weaknesses, than be a hypocrite... I feel like I may do that...

No mention of sin or sinlessness in this, or in "any" of this you shared, if one is ready to make his defense by being honest and not hypocritical and really does feel he is being genuinely honest and not lying... Then...?

Were all sinners, only sinners even need a savior BTW...

God Bless!

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus says depart from me ye that work iniquity.
Iniquity is sin.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Matthew 13:41-42 says that Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather all things that offend (sin) and those people who do iniquity (lawlessness) and cast them into the furnace of fire (Lake of Fire). Remember, nothing that defiles will be able to enter the city of New Jerusalem.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The thing is that the Bible teaches that you can overcome your sin.
But there are people who do not like that message so they seek to change it or ignore it.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

There are two types of believers.
Those who admit they are not sinless and those who don't.

I wonder which type God is more pleased with

 

[stuart lawrence]

There are those who don't practice what they preach/ demand of others. We know what God thinks of them. Matt ch23

 

[stuart lawrence]

There are those who think they can be good enough for God by obeying his laws.
There are those who admit they cannot be good enough.

Which group is God pleased with?