The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Dan61861]

If you rely on observing the law to be righteous before God/ being good enough, then being good enough requires 100 percent perfect obedience. That is the only pass mark under the law:

For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
James2:10

Paul agrees:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. Clearly no one is justified before God by observing the law
Gal3:10&11.

For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath
Rom4:14

Why does law bring wrath?
Because you cannot reach the pass mark to be righteous before God under it, which is perfection, 100percent perfect obedience.

I'm sure some of these people who insist you must observe the law to be righteous before God are Antinomian. They then have to excuse their sin to justify themselves.

Sheep and goats come to mind. The sheep won't do that

Thank you Stuart, you are correct. Yet we are called to be perfect like He is perfect. The only way we can be perfect is by God washing us clean.

In the Old Testament as God led Israel through the wilderness . He provided a flame of fire in the darkness and a covering during the day. Jesus is that covering, Jesus is that consuming fire and Jesus is the light in the darkness.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have to define repentant or repentance first, (cause the latter is false), then you have to discuss ones level of awareness of sins (mainly the level of awareness of they're own personal sins), and if whether they know or are consciously aware that they are sinning or not has bearing on this (salvation) or not...?

God Bless!

Jesus says in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Jesus says, "except you repent, you shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3); And God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). So yes, repentance is a requirement for salvation.

What is repentance?

Repentance involves a cry unto God for the forgiveness of your sins with the intention that you will not sin again. The fruits of true repentance leads to forsaking sin. Jesus defines repentance for us by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10 from his words in Matthew 12:41. In Jonah 3, the King of the Ninevites tells his people to (a) Cry out to God and (b) to forsake their evil ways. God's wrath and judgment was only averted when the Ninevites forsaked their evil ways. So this is repentance and the true fruits of repentance that follows.

If a person thinks they can sin at some point in the future and abide in that sin and be saved, they are justifying sin (and this is wrong). Meaning, if they say things like, "Hey, everybody sins so it is okay if I do." They are not really fearing God.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Peace be with you, Jason.

I know your stance on this topic and you are quite knowledgeable in these matters.

I think a person's Salvation can be jeopardised if he or she believes in the "works do not save" Salvation nonsense.

God bless you.

Thank you Gabriel.
While we may not agree on everything, I am happy we can agree on how Once Saved Always Saved is not biblical.


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[Neogaia777]

Jesus says in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Jesus says, "except you repent, you shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3); And God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). So yes, repentance is a requirement for salvation.

What is repentance?

Repentance involves a cry unto God for the forgiveness of your sins with the intention that you will not sin again. The fruits of true repentance leads to forsaking sin. Jesus defines repentance for us by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10 from his words in Matthew 12:41. In Jonah 3, the King of the Ninevites tells his people to (a) Cry out to God and (b) to forsake their evil ways. God's wrath and judgment was only averted when the Ninevites forsaked their evil ways. So this is repentance and the true fruits of repentance that follows.

If a person thinks they can sin at some point in the future and abide in that sin and be saved, they are justifying sin (and this is wrong). Meaning, if they say things like, "Hey, everybody sins so it is okay if I do." They are not really fearing God.


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Funny, all you heard was "repentance" and not the being repentant part...

Luke 17:4 basically says if one is repentant even though he may commit the same kind of sins over again, he is forgiven...

I believe he has to be doing the best he can or knows how to not sin though, and that would be a matter left up to/for God judge about him or a person and not us...

But one can be a sinner and be saved, all depends on factors only God can know or judge, and us thinking we can is the fruit from the tree of death, in my view...

Which you are doing by saying and presuming things like: "If a person thinks they can sin at some point in the future and abide in that sin and be saved" (they cannot be saved, you still do not think)...

Isn't that best left up to God alone... and not be trying to judge your brother in matters only God can know... There are factors with sin, that "we" just do and cannot know, yet, only God can...

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus says in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Jesus says, "except you repent, you shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3); And God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). So yes, repentance is a requirement for salvation.

What is repentance?

Repentance involves a cry unto God for the forgiveness of your sins with the intention that you will not sin again. The fruits of true repentance leads to forsaking sin. Jesus defines repentance for us by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10 from his words in Matthew 12:41. In Jonah 3, the King of the Ninevites tells his people to (a) Cry out to God and (b) to forsake their evil ways. God's wrath and judgment was only averted when the Ninevites forsaked their evil ways. So this is repentance and the true fruits of repentance that follows.

If a person thinks they can sin at some point in the future and abide in that sin and be saved, they are justifying sin (and this is wrong). Meaning, if they say things like, "Hey, everybody sins so it is okay if I do." They are not really fearing God.


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Ones level of awareness of sin, you did not address either...

Like did you know Jason, what were all doing on here is considered "sin"...? But it is a/the sin not leading to death, or that we need to repent of or pray about, That is connected to righteousness, but called a sin, that one will get life for, ... (1 John 5:16-17)...

 

[Neogaia777]

We cannot judge one another over our sins, without sinning in the process...

So, you keep the law all the time now and never disobey God's laws ever...?

I would find that very hard to believe, especially the spirit of the law and not it's literal letter of it...

Let's try this: "you never covet or envy...?" (Y/N?)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ones level of awareness of sin, you did not address either...

My time is limited in the morning sometimes. Plus my morning coffee has not kicked in at the time of my writing to you. I believe I addressed your point before about awareness of sin with you (in another thread), as well.

Like did you know Jason, what were all doing on here is considered "sin"...? But it is a/the sin not leading to death, or that we need to repent of or pray about, That is connected to righteousness, but called a sin, that one will get life for, ... (1 John 5:16-17)...

I believe there are sins that do not lead unto death or minor transgressions. I believe I have said this to you before. So you are not telling me anything new. But that would not be the same as committing serious sins like lying, hating, murder, adultery, theft, etc.

As for your crazy notion that our discussing and or debating the Bible online as being a sin: Please enlighten the rest of us to why you think so with Scripture.


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[Bible Highlighter]

We cannot judge one another over our sins, without sinning in the process...

So, you keep the law all the time now and never disobey God's laws ever...?

I would find that very hard to believe, especially the spirit of the law and not it's literal letter of it...

Let's try this: "you never covet or envy...?" (Y/N?)

This is simply not Biblical to say we cannot judge one another in regards to sin. If you say that, then you have not either read New Testament or you read it with no understanding in what it said.

There are tons of verses that talk about us judging other fellow believers.

What Does the Bible Say About Judging Other Christians?

Note: Matthew 7:1-5 is dealing with hypocritical judgment.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, as for not being aware of what sin is:

#1. The Holy Spirit will convict people of their sin.
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."
(John 16:8).

#2. The New Testament tells us what is serious sin and what is not. Yes, the OT clarifies the moral law for for us in the New Testament a little more. But we believers are not under the OT Law as a whole but we are under the commands in the NT (even though certain moral laws have been carried over).

God's Word is still a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path as it says in the Psalms.
And God's people are still destroyed for lack of knowledge as the Scriptures say, too.


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[ToBeLoved]

Jesus cannot save us while we are even doing one serious sin because that would mean Jesus or God would have to agree with our thinking that we can sin and still be saved.

But God cannot agree with sin on any level.

God is holy, righteous, and good.

Also, this concept of grace leads one to minimize sin and evil.
Jesus said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.
Jesus did not say that we can not forgive others on occasion and it is okay.
Granted, I am not saying God cannot give us space to repent.
But we are not saved if we are in serious sin.

Gotquestions says on the issue of Eternal Security that a believer is saved while backsliding and yet they also say that a believer will not live a lifestyle of sinful living. This is a contradiction that cannot be true. They are teaching two messages that conflict with each other. On the one hand they are teaching that God's grace can be used for us to live in an immoral way and yet on the other hand they are saying that we are to live holy. They cannot make up their mind. But they are not the only ones to preach this two fold message of Eternal Security. Most all who teach Eternal Security teach this very thing, as well.


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Jesus already justifies us.

So Jesus is not agreeing with any sin. His gift is His giving us His righteousness. So what you said here makes no sense unless you totally deny what Christ died to give us.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Anyways, as for not being aware of what sin is:

#1. The Holy Spirit will convict people of their sin.
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."
(John 16:8).

#2. The New Testament tells us what is serious sin and what is not. Yes, the OT clarifies the moral law for for us in the New Testament a little more. But we believers are not under the OT Law as a whole but we are under the commands in the NT (even though certain moral laws have been carried over).

God's Word is still a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path as it says in the Psalms.
And God's people are still destroyed for lack of knowledge as the Scriptures say, too.


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Your entire argument seems to be sin but how does that refute OSAS? We said earlier OSAS does not support or condone sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you Stuart, you are correct. Yet we are called to be perfect like He is perfect. The only way we can be perfect is by God washing us clean.

In the Old Testament as God led Israel through the wilderness . He provided a flame of fire in the darkness and a covering during the day. Jesus is that covering, Jesus is that consuming fire and Jesus is the light in the darkness.

In Christ
Daniel

This is a lie.

Please read 2 Corinthians 7:1.
It says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God. Now, if you were to go to 1 John 2:5, it says: "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

So you have to keep His Word so as to perfect the love of God.
You are to cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God. 1 John 2:5 is the solution of how "perfect love" cast out fear. It is by keeping His Word.

1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows Him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Gotta run.

May God's love be upon you all.


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[ToBeLoved]

This is simply not Biblical to say we cannot judge one another in regards to sin. If you say that, then you have not either read New Testament or you read it with no understanding in what it said.

There are tons of verses that talk about us judging other fellow believers.

What Does the Bible Say About Judging Other Christians?

Note: Matthew 7:1-5 is dealing with hypocritical judgment.


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Well at least to judge them using the same measure. So those who judge will be judged by God. Part of God's justice. What we reap we will also sow.

 

[Neogaia777]

My time is limited in the morning sometimes. Plus my morning coffee has not kicked in at the time of my writing to you. I believe I addressed your point before about awareness of sin with you (in another thread), as well.



I believe there are sins that do not lead unto death or minor transgressions. I believe I have said this to you before. So you are not telling me anything new. But that would not be the same as committing serious sins like lying, hating, murder, adultery, theft, etc.

As for your crazy notion that our discussing and or debating the Bible online as being a sin: Please enlighten the rest of us to why you think so with Scripture.


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Judging for us is a sin, yet we have to do it, (near the end of Romans 1), and in the beginning of Romans 2, Paul talks about how the list of sins were a judgement by him, a sin that should lead to death, cause he (Paul) says that judging is hypocritical and hypocrisy is lying for us, not being God, and is why Paul said "oh miserable man that I am", "why do I do what I hate", (judge), I am the cheiftain (worst) of (all) sinners... Even Christ himself did not feel good in his own self about doing what he was doing in doing the Fathers will, when he did not think himself good because of it...

and we all judge matters on here all the time, the sin of trying to be like God and take or be in his place, at the very least as well... Many have pride issues, the sin of the devil in them... And other sins, that I'm not going to go into detail about...

Look, if you think you or anyone else is sinless, then your delusional... or can not sin, or will not sin, at all, in the future, then your delusional...

So, their has to be a way those of who are honest that we are sinners, and not commit the sin of lying, there has to be a way for us, to still have salvation, regardless of sin somehow, which i went into in a previous post on here in this thread...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Judging for us is a sin, yet we have to do it, (near the end of Romans 1), and in the beginning of Romans 2, Paul talks about how the list of sins were a judgement by him, a sin that should lead to death, cause he (Paul) says that judging is hypocritical and hypocrisy is lying for us, not being God, and is why Paul said "oh miserable man that I am", "why do I do what I hate", (judge), I am the cheiftain (worst) of (all) sinners... Even Christ himself did not feel good in his own self about doing what he was doing in doing the Fathers will, when he did not think himself good because of it...

and we all judge matters on here all the time, the sin of trying to be like God and take or be in his place, at the very least as well... Many have pride issues, the sin of the devil in them... And other sins, that I'm not going to go into detail about...

Look, if you think you or anyone else is sinless, then your delusional... or can not sin, or will not sin, at all, in the future, then your delusional...

So, their has to be a way those of who are honest that we are sinners, and not commit the sin of lying, there has to be a way for us, to still have salvation, regardless of sin somehow, which i went into in a previous post on here in this thread...

Wow. You are saying Paul needed to sin (judge) out of necessity? Stop right here! It is never God's will for you to sin. If judging was a sin and Jesus judged, then He would have sinned and therefore He could not be our Saviour. Also, Scripture says all Judgment is given unto the Son. Even right now you are judging. Are you saying that you are sinning out of necessity by judging? That is pure insanity.

If you have a standard of morality, then you are automatically judging. Meaning if you think murder and rape is wrong then you are automatically in judgement against those who do those sins.

I mean, if somebody just killed someone you love right in front of you, are you going to say, "It is not my place to judge"?

All Scripture is profitable for correction, and rebuke and training in righteousness (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

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[Bible Highlighter]

Again as for the type of Law that Paul was talking about in Romans 7:

Paul in no way was saying the command of coveting has been abrogated by having a belief in Jesus. Again, see Ephesians 5:5. Paul clearly says those who covet will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Paul was speaking about his struggle with sin while he was a Pharisee. He could not keep God's Law before he was a Christian because he did not have Jesus in his life yet as a Pharisee. He wanted to obey the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law but could not do it without Jesus.

Romans 13:14 says put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. In Romans 6, Paul speaks about how you are either a slave to sin or you are a slave to righteousness.

Paul says we are to serve in newness of Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Paul clearly condemned "circumcision salvationism" in Romans 3:1 and Galatians 5:2. This was the Old Law that had died. Paul was still saying there is good in the Old Law (because laws like coveting are still applicable to us - See Ephesians 5:5). Paul merely could not keep this Law of coveting (among other good moral laws) because he did not know Jesus yet. That is why he asks the question "who shall deliver me from this body of death"? He did not know Jesus yet. In the next verse, he speaks as a Christian and thanks Jesus that this struggle does not exist for him anymore.

Side Note:

To see the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law: Compare Romans 8:3-4 with Romans 13:8-10.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Your entire argument seems to be sin but how does that refute OSAS? We said earlier OSAS does not support or condone sin?

You quoted a Gotquestions article to me before on Eternal Security. In this article they preach a two fold message that conflicts with each other. They say that a believer is defined by living holy. Yet, they also say that a backslidden believer is saved. This is a justification of sin.

The poster who is called "the W" (within this thread) admitted that believers are automatically saved in the sins of drunkenness and prostitution only if they do such sins occasionally. Do you not agree with him? Do you not agree with the Gotquestions article you quoted to me? In other words, do you believe sin is separation from God? If not, then you must believe you can sin on some level and be saved (Which is a justification of sin).


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[Rajni]

Good thing I do not believe in Eternal Concious Torment.
I believe the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence after they are punished for a set amount of time for their sins in the Lake of Fire.

As for people fearing that God hates them and they are stuck in the fear of the Lord instead of repenting: Well, that is not an excuse or proof that people can sin and still be saved. It just shows that they are not repenting.

The fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding.

"And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).

If a person is stuck in being afraid and does not repent, the solution is not having fear of God with no change but the solution is in asking God for forgiveness of one's sins and in departing from their evil ways. Just being fearful in the wrong way and being paralyzed by one's fears is a sin. God did not intend us to be stuck in fear to the point of not repenting.

As for the fear of God leading to mental disorders: Again, a person can choose to not repent and let fear take hold of them. This is what will lead to mental disorders. They are not responding correctly to the fear of the Lord. Instead of repenting they are just remaining in constant fear (wrongfully).

I would say that justifying evil or sin (Which God can never agree with) and being a slave to their sin is proof that Eternal Security is wrong. God is good. He is not evil and cannot agree with a person's sin or evil.

So no. The cases you present are silly at best.


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Sorry, still not sold.
But thanks for trying!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry, still not sold.
But thanks for trying!

I know. Most are not sold on this. For Jesus said narrow is the way.


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