The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Bible Highlighter]

as a pursued lifestyle, no.

Therein is the deception.
"Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4). ~ The devil.
One can convince themselves that they can do these sins on occasion and still be saved.
But sin has a way of talking hold of a person with them being a slave to it.
For Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin.
You cannot serve two masters.
For you will hate the one and love the other.
Choose this day whom ye will serve.
Statements like this do not make any sense with the Eternal Security belief.
This is what the two fold message of Eternal Security is all about.
You can still sin on occasion and be saved.
Yet, you are supposed to also be conforming to Christ.
It is a contradiction.
It is deceptive.



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[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus cannot save us while we are even doing one serious sin because that would mean Jesus or God would have to agree with our thinking that we can sin and still be saved.

But God cannot agree with sin on any level.

God is holy, righteous, and good.

Also, this concept of grace leads one to minimize sin and evil.
Jesus said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.
Jesus did not say that we can not forgive others on occasion and it is okay.
Granted, I am not saying God cannot give us space to repent.
But we are not saved if we are in serious sin.

Gotquestions says on the issue of Eternal Security that a believer is saved while backsliding and yet they also say that a believer will not live a lifestyle of sinful living. This is a contradiction that cannot be true. They are teaching two messages that conflict with each other. On the one hand they are teaching that God's grace can be used for us to live in an immoral way and yet on the other hand they are saying that we are to live holy. They cannot make up their mind. But they are not the only ones to preach this two fold message of Eternal Security. Most all who teach Eternal Security teach this very thing, as well.


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[S.O.J.I.A.]

now you've gone from attacking a straw-man to canards.

if you're not able to honestly and accurately identify your opponents position, there it is no use in continuing as the discussion will benefit no one and can't move forward. that will be all for me.

feel free to have the last word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

I am not teaching people to live holy and to be Christ like if I am also saying that a person can sin and still be saved on occasion. Do you folks get it?

It's a two fold message!
This is the two fold message of Eternal Security.
So when an Eternal Security proponent does a sermon on teaching people to live holy and that is all they say, they are lying! Why? Because they are also not teaching that you can sin on occasion and be saved, too. They also need to say that this is a part of God's plan of righteousness, too. But will they do that? No. Of course not.

They need to say this other message at another time in a different way when people's minds are in a different mind set.


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[Bible Highlighter]

In Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), the talk of holiness and conforming to Christ is an illusion because they also say you can sin on occasion and yet you are still saved.

This is why we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
George Sodini​

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[Kenny'sID]

I've answered a few of your questions, answer one of mine.

Actually no, you answered to very little if any of my last post. You threw a verse at me and didn't touch on a thing I said in disagreement to what you said the verse on the wide and narrow meant. but the fact you didn't tells me enough so no worries.

Tell me friend, Biblical, how good is good enough to get into heaven?

God decides and that far from substantiates your "there is no good or bad" when the bible is very clear there is, nor does it mean because we all sin, sin just doesn't matter, or all we need do is believe in a God loves everyone/takes them to heaven no matter what you do...happy place.

And BTW, every time I hear that silly question, "how good is good enough" that people seem to think is a real stumper, I realize people don't answer because there is no set amount, and not because it does a thing for their/your side of the argument, they just think it does.

I quoted a verse in my last post that included a list that gives an idea how bad is bad enough. Which, BTW is something you are pushing is not and issue when you say good and bad doesn't matter, but you chose to skip that among other things I brought up.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Actually, I'd say this is one of or THE most important subject, and difficult to pinpoint. I can turn around now and quote the passage that you just need to utter the words and accept Jesus as saviour, and you will be saved. Then quote Paul that faith without deeds is dead, or quote him where he talks about self-righteousness and our acts alone do not save us.

so i think this is the double edged sword talked about, or the very narrow path, broad is the path to destruction. i imagine that steering slightly left of the path or the Way might be to allow indulgences and bath lightly in sin, depending on Jesus as our saviour, while straying slightly to the right might be going the legalistic route of self-righteousness, that your own acts save you. i believe that the very narrow pearly gates is what Buddha attained, finding the Kingdom of Heaven from within, and this is basically the same message as Jesus. I'm not proclaiming myself to be a Buddhist but I once attended a famous meditation camp for foreigners in Thailand and read a small book written by the founder, who got sick of all these Christians ranting about their precious little line that all they need to do is utter certain words and they shall be saved. (Let us not forget "Many will call on the name of the Lord but not be saved".) So he read the bible and then wrote this little book. Very eye opening. He used the word stupid many times, referring to both the common Buddhist believer who believes they are doing something by putting a little bowl of rice and incense sticks on their little temple in their little backyard every morning, so big fat Buddha can climb up that little ladder and have breakfast?? Or Christians who drop to their knee, wave their hand in a cross, put some money in a basket, say hail Marry thirty times, put on their Sunday best once a week, etc etc. Again, entirely missing the point. He quoted many lines from both Jesus and Buddha and explained very wisely that they are the same message. A divine message that most people completely miss, because they don't want to spend the time to get it. they are too busy managing their lives (the thorns around the farmer's seeds) to get into proper depth, so they hang a cross up on their wall and pray to that. much easier than dealing with sincere issues of the heart...

So lets just cut to the chase, are you too claiming no good works necessary to get into heaven, and bad works cannot keep us out as long as we believe?

 

[Rajni]

In Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), the talk of holiness and conforming to Christ is an illusion because they also say you can sin on occasion and yet you are still saved.

This is why we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
George Sodini​

...

The belief in conditional salvation can also cause issues:

• The Fruit of the Teaching of Hell
• Fear of losing salvation
• Major Fear over Being Unsaved
• Belief in a vengeful God linked to mental disorders –study

And then we have a CF member who seems to delight in contemplating, in Wes Craven-esque detail, how many people are heading for hell and what their torment will be like: Hell's Population Clock

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Dan61861]

Actually no, you answered to very little if any of my last post. You threw a verse at me and didn't touch on a thing I said in disagreement to what you said the verse on the wide and narrow meant. but the fact you didn't tells me enough so no worries.



God decides and that far from substantiates your "there is no good or bad" when the bible is very clear there is, nor does it mean because we all sin, sin just doesn't matter, or all we need do is believe in a God loves everyone/takes them to heaven no matter what you do...happy place.

And BTW, every time I hear that silly question, "how good is good enough" that people seem to think is a real stumper, I realize people don't answer because there is no set amount, and not because it does a thing for their/your side of the argument, they just think it does.

I quoted a verse in my last post that included a list that gives an idea how bad is bad enough. Which, BTW is something you are pushing is not and issue when you say good and bad doesn't matter, but you chose to skip that among other things I brought up.

Quote me saying good or bad doesn't matter. I have said, only God is good. Man is not good, there isn't any good men.
Quote me saying it is okay to sin. I have said we all sin.
You keep putting words in my mouth, making an argument I have not made. It's a bit dishonest of you.

You had asked for a verse where Jesus said or implied he was the way. I gave you the verse, yet you say I didn't answer your question???

You say there are many ways to God. You, God, Jesus and being good. The Bible says there is only one way. It is Christ, Christ crucified. There is no other way.

It is telling that you don't want to answer my question. At least I try to answer your questions. Btw, if you don't like the answer...it doesn't mean it wasn't answered.

As far as me preaching this...I will declare Christ and Him crucified forevermore. God willing. I will declare Christ as the only way. He is the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Him.

It is Christ and Christ alone.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The belief in conditional salvation can also cause issues:

• The Fruit of the Teaching of Hell
• Fear of losing salvation
• Major Fear over Being Unsaved
• Belief in a vengeful God linked to mental disorders –study

And then we have a CF member who seems to delight in contemplating, in Wes Craven-esque detail, how many people are heading for hell and what their torment will be like: Hell's Population Clock

Thanks, but no thanks.

Good thing I do not believe in Eternal Concious Torment.
I believe the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence after they are punished for a set amount of time for their sins in the Lake of Fire.

As for people fearing that God hates them and they are stuck in the fear of the Lord instead of repenting: Well, that is not an excuse or proof that people can sin and still be saved. It just shows that they are not repenting.

The fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding.

"And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).

If a person is stuck in being afraid and does not repent, the solution is not having fear of God with no change but the solution is in asking God for forgiveness of one's sins and in departing from their evil ways. Just being fearful in the wrong way and being paralyzed by one's fears is a sin. God did not intend us to be stuck in fear to the point of not repenting.

As for the fear of God leading to mental disorders: Again, a person can choose to not repent and let fear take hold of them. This is what will lead to mental disorders. They are not responding correctly to the fear of the Lord. Instead of repenting they are just remaining in constant fear (wrongfully).

I would say that justifying evil or sin (Which God can never agree with) and being a slave to their sin is proof that Eternal Security is wrong. God is good. He is not evil and cannot agree with a person's sin or evil.

So no. The cases you present are silly at best.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Quote me saying good or bad doesn't matter. I have said, only God is good. Man is not good, there isn't any good men.
Quote me saying it is okay to sin. I have said we all sin.
You keep putting words in my mouth, making an argument I have not made. It's a bit dishonest of you.

You had asked for a verse where Jesus said or implied he was the way. I gave you the verse, yet you say I didn't answer your question???

You say there are many ways to God. You, God, Jesus and being good. The Bible says there is only one way. It is Christ, Christ crucified. There is no other way.

It is telling that you don't want to answer my question. At least I try to answer your questions. Btw, if you don't like the answer...it doesn't mean it wasn't answered.

As far as me preaching this...I will declare Christ and Him crucified forevermore. God willing. I will declare Christ as the only way. He is the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Him.

It is Christ and Christ alone.

In Christ
Daniel

What you do not understand is that while Jesus is the only way,
it is Christ Jesus who does the good work in the believer.
In other words, Jesus saves both in Justification and in Sanctification.
For we are to put on the Lord Jesus so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14).
It's why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus.
It's why Jesus says you can do nothing without me (John 15:5).
To put it to you another way, if Jesus lives in a person, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life.
For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and vise versa.
JESUS.
He is the good tree inside of a believer.
The true vine.
Also, Jesus died for the purpose so that we believers would be a holy people (Please carefully read Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14).

But Jesus who is holy will not tolerate a believer sinning.
That would mean He would have to agree with a believer's thinking that they can do evil and still be saved; But it doesn't work like that.

The first lie in the Garden by the devil should tell you this fact.

"Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).


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[Kenny'sID]

Quote me saying good or bad doesn't matter. I have said, only God is good. Man is not good, there isn't any good men.

I already mentioned where you said the problem was that I thought in terms of good and bad. Why quote it, you know you said it ... your playing games now...where these thing always end up

You had asked for a verse where Jesus said or implied he was the way. I gave you the verse, yet you say I didn't answer your question???

I said games...here is a for instance...show me where I asked what you claim. See? You claim I asked that when I did not, and only so you can claim you answered when you did not. I asked you where in the scripture that was the subject in order to prove Christ was not saying what you claimed, and you went off and found another verse completely, and are now telling me I asked you to do that, I did not. You're twisting things around now, this is where the tricky stuff, and untruthful comments starts. Again, always the way, and the reason I didn't read the rest of your post.

 

[Dan61861]

Can you now please show me where Christ mentions his own name/self at all in the scripture? He says "ways", he doesn't say me alone, or Christ alone..

Here Kenny, you did ask...my answer was...
I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father but by me.

It isn't ways, it is the way...Christ alone.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here Kenny, you did ask...my answer was...
I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father but by me.

It isn't ways, it is the way...Christ alone.

In Christ
Daniel

But why does God's Word say in 1 John 1:7 if we are to walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin?

This implies an action on our part.
A cooperation at least.

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).

Not sure you get this passage. But it is saying that Jesus will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM (i.e. anyone claiming to be of Christ) whereby they would sin and do iniquity or lawlessness and the angels will cast them into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus says to certain believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked sin or iniquity, too.

Jesus drives home this point. He does not speak of Once Saved Always Saved. Jesus says in Matthew 26-27 that if any man does not do what he says he is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

It's why Jesus separates the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25.
Those who did evil did not make it.

Not sure how much clearer the Scriptures can get on this.
They repeatedly warn that believers cannot abide in any kind of sin and think they are saved.


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[Dan61861]

The problem is, you think there are good people and bad people. God's word says we are all wretched. It says in our best state we are nothing but vanity. The Bible says there is only one that is good, That is God.

No games Kenny, here is my quote. No where do I say good and bad doesn't matter. I say God alone is good. Man is not good.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No games Kenny, here is my quote. No where do I say good and bad doesn't matter. I say God alone is good. Man is not good.

In Christ
Daniel

Jesus says,
"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

Jesus says there are those who are pure in heart.
This is a good thing because Jesus says,
"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8).
I mean, do you believe in receiving a new heart?
That is what being born again is all about.

Can a person be pure in heart and justify sin and evil?
You know, can they think they can sin and still be saved?

What King would reward their servants if he knew they planned on being disloyal with him?


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[stuart lawrence]

Paul is talking about the OLD Law in Romans 7 and not all law. Please read Romans 7:1 and Romans 7:6. Paul and the other followers of Christ were still giving us laws or commands to follow. Why would they do that if it was all "Once Saved Always Saved" type greasy grace? Paul himself said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). John says that one of Christ's commands is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So if keeping Law has no bearing to our salvation than we have to assume that 1 John 3:23 is included in that, too.

As for your mention of Romans 8:33: Well, Romans 8:35-39 does not mention "Sinless Perfection." So you would be adding to God's Word here. In fact, two things you will not find in Romans 8:35-39. Yourself and your sin. These are things in the Bible that are very clear that can separate a believer from God. From the beginning of the Garden we see this concept. Yet, the devil still likes to cast his lie out there, "Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).



Not true at all. John told the man he healed that if he were to sin again a worse thing were to come upon him (John 5:14). Jesus says if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). So I really do not see the greasy grace idea being pushed by Jesus here.



The 144,000 shows that you CAN be perfect (Which the majority of Christians like yourself deny).
I am also not saying that a believer has to be perfect so as to be saved, either.
Perfection is dealing with minor faults and it is not serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, idolatry, theft, and drunkenness, etc.).

Revelation 7:9-17 does not say that this robe is a cloak that covers our ongoing sinning.
That is something you have to add to the text that is not there.
Again, 1 John 1:7 says that you have to WALK in the light of Christ so that the blood of Jesus cleanses you of all sin.

"It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." (Revelation 19:8 NASB).


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Once again. The law being discussed in rom ch7 from verse 7 onwards is : Thou shalt not covet. Law Jason firmly believes is incorporated into NC law. So for him to continually state rom ch 7 concerns old law not applicable NC law is, daft, ridiculous, nonsensical, etc, take your pick.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I've answered a few of your questions, answer one of mine.
Tell me friend, Biblical, how good is good enough to get into heaven?

In Christ
Daniel

If you rely on observing the law to be righteous before God/ being good enough, then being good enough requires 100 percent perfect obedience. That is the only pass mark under the law:

For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
James2:10

Paul agrees:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. Clearly no one is justified before God by observing the law
Gal3:10&11.

For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath
Rom4:14

Why does law bring wrath?
Because you cannot reach the pass mark to be righteous before God under it, which is perfection, 100percent perfect obedience.

I'm sure some of these people who insist you must observe the law to be righteous before God are Antinomian. They then have to excuse their sin to justify themselves.

Sheep and goats come to mind. The sheep won't do that

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages. One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like. Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth?


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Peace be with you, Jason.

I know your stance on this topic and you are quite knowledgeable in these matters.

I think a person's Salvation can be jeopardised if he or she believes in the "works do not save" Salvation nonsense.

God bless you.

 

[Neogaia777]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages. One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like. Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth?


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You have to define repentant or repentance first, (cause the latter is false), then you have to discuss ones level of awareness of sins (mainly the level of awareness of they're own personal sins), and if whether they know or are consciously aware that they are sinning or not has bearing on this (salvation) or not...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You have to define repentant or repentance first, (cause the latter is false), then you have to discuss ones level of awareness of sins (mainly the level of awareness of they're own personal sins), and if whether they know or are consciously aware that they are sinning or not has bearing on this (salvation) or not...?

God Bless!

I think that if one is repentant of the sins they're aware of at the time, and they're not trying to justify sin or sinning, and they're repentant and trying and not giving up, then they are doing well...

But, only God knows if an individual is supposed to spend some time in unrepentance or some time trying to justify a (or they're) sins, or not... Some time spent in disobedience before becoming obedient, which I define as the above, because I don't believe anyone to ever be sinless, I only think the ones that might think so, are just lacking in the area of they're level of awareness of sin, in general...

God Bless!