The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Rajni]

Ahh so ..no scripture ..just sentences plucked out and peiced together to say what you like to hear..bit like an anonymous ransom note

No, pretty sure those were scripture references I posted.

Indeed:
Rom 6:14, rom3:31, rom1:17, rom3:20, rom3:21&22, rom10:4, rom7:4-6, gal2:19, gal2:21, gal3:19, gal3:23-25, gal5:4&5, eph2:8&9, eph2:15, phil3:9, col1:22&23, heb9:26, heb10:10, heb10:14, gal4:21

Amen!

 

[Alithis]

No, pretty sure those were scripture references I posted.

Amen!

Nope sorry. In the scriptural text there are no verses .it's a continual text.
So you've just picked sentences out of context and made up your own storyline.

 

[Alithis]

But the Eternal Security Proponent is saying that a person can be immoral like an atheist on some level and still be saved by having a mere belief on Jesus.

Now what is confusing and deceptive is that sometimes the Eternal Security Proponent may say we are to be more Christ like on the one hand and yet on the other hand they say we can sin and still be saved and we will not stop sinning in this life. Some say they can sin 24/7 and are saved. Some say you can commit suicide and still be saved. They cannot make up their mind on what they are saying. They contradict themselves.

Eternal Security puts out two messages that conflicts with itself. On one hand Eternal Security believers say you are to be holy and then on the other hand they say you can sin and still be saved.

This is clearly wrong because the Bible talks about how we are to be distinct from the world by righteous actions. There is no compromise on doing good. If one is to be holy, then that should be a consistent teaching in everything they say. We are to lead every thought captive to Christ.

Anyways, please give less opinion and more Scripture to prove your case in what you are saying in regards to the verses I posted. Thank you.




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As I read elsewhere..this awkward question..
-Why do osas types suggest a righteous person in Christ WILL continue to sin...
But never call a person practicing sin a rightous person ...?

 

[Kenny'sID]

And then hope that over the course of eternity you never change your mind for even a second, O fickle human. And don't tell me that God will keep you from changing, because that's not free will.

Why would changing my mind, even form a second, be a problem?

 

[stuart lawrence]

According to the Bible, those who will sin the least, are those who do NOT believe they are under a righteousness of observing the law.
And in the Bible, we see, that those who most earnestly preached righteousness of observing the law to a nigh on perfect standard, were hypocrites whom Christ reserved his harshest words for. He said prostitutes and tax collectors would enter the kingdom of heaven ahead of them.
These people, who most earnestly demanded the law be kept to be righteous, gave every outward impression they were the most holy, and pious of people. They fooled the crowds, but they could not fool Jesus. He said, on the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean. Why were they hypocrites?

The teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat so you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach
Matt ch23:2&3

Sadly, the phariseeical attitude is as alive today as it was then. People will quote scripture to tell you, if you love Christ you will obey his literal Commandments. They tell you this while they themselves don't try and obey them all.
Beware of such people!

 

[Kenny'sID]

These people, who most earnestly demanded the law be kept to be righteous, have every outward impression they were the most holy, and pious of people.

Do you see those people here? Can you point them out?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you see those people here? Can you point them out?

Pray to God, ask him to enlighten you as to whether such people are in these forums, if you are unsure.
I think you would listen to God, more than you would the opinions of man, either way

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Stuart:

Yes, many in the Eternal Security camp justify sins like lying and lusting after women as being minor or small sins to God. They do not think these sins are as serious as say murder or rape. This plays into their belief of the two message gospel of Eternal Security that says we are to live holy on the one hand and yet on the other hand we can sin and still be saved.

Now, it is true that not all sin has the same degree or weight. Jesus essentially said the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy, (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). Jesus says there is a greater sin (John 19:11); And there are even unforgivable sins like speaking blasphemous words against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32). 1 John 5:16-17 says there are sins unto death and sins not unto death.


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[Rajni]

Nope sorry. In the scriptural text there are no verses .it's a continual text. So you've just picked sentences out of context and made up your own storyline.

Moving of goalposts duly noted.
For the "continual text" rather than your original request of "what scripture", you can simply refer to "the bible". What you choose to mark with a highlighter or black sharpie is entirely up to you, of course. The bible's an inkblot test, after all. It's reading you, not the other way around.

Do you see those people here? Can you point them out?

I for one would never insist that people stuff their foot into any shoe that doesn't fit.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Pray to God, ask him to enlighten you as to whether such people are in these forums, if you are unsure.
I think you would listen to God, more than you would the opinions of man, either way

May point is, I don't see them, I don't think anyone here is depending, or so much as suggesting anyone depend on the law for salvation.

 

[stuart lawrence]

May point is, I don't see them, I don't think anyone here is depending, or so much as suggesting anyone depend on the law for salvation.

Then you have come to your personal conclusion.
May I ask?
If a person believes the Christian is under a law of righteousness, in your view, are they depending on observing the law to attain heaven/ be ultimately saved?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart:

Yes, many in the Eternal Security camp justify sins like lying and lusting after women as being minor or small sins to God. They do not think these sins are as serious as say murder or rape. This plays into their belief of the two message gospel of Eternal Security that says we are to live holy on the one hand and yet on the other hand we can sin and still be saved.

Now, it is true that not all sin has the same degree or weight. Jesus essentially said the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy, (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). Jesus says there is a greater sin (John 19:11); And there are even unforgivable sins like speaking blasphemous words against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32). 1 John 5:16-17 says there are sins unto death and sins not unto death.


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Unfortunately Jason, you don't understand the heart of the gospel message. Having the ability to reel off the letter, doesn't mean you understand the truth of the message. That was proved so well to be true in biblical times

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I read elsewhere..this awkward question..
-Why do osas types suggest a righteous person in Christ WILL continue to sin...
But never call a person practicing sin a rightous person ...?

Yes, this the "two messages" within Eternal Security that are contrary to each other. They either are unaware of this contradiction or they simply admit to the contradiction as a part of God's plan.

But I see it as deceptive.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Unfortunately Jason, you don't understand the heart of the gospel message. Having the ability to reel off the letter, doesn't mean you understand the truth of the message. That was proved so well to be true in biblical times

Then explain it to me with God's Word. Oh wait, but that would be with the letter of God's Word that you condemn, right? So why bother even using Scripture then? Is not all Scripture profitable for doctrine? (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Is Scripture something that appeals to only your defense when you say so?



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[stuart lawrence]

Then explain it to me with God's Word. Oh wait, but that would be with the letter of God's Word that you condemn, right? So why bother even using Scripture then? Is not all Scripture profitable for doctrine? (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).


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So now come the untruths/ lies. That says much!
I have explained the gospel message to you previously, you ignore what you are shown. You claim when Paul states the Christian is not under a law of righteousness, he means non applicable OC law. Though time and time again you have been shown your belief to be false you refuse to accept it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Then explain it to me with God's Word. Oh wait, but that would be with the letter of God's Word that you condemn, right? So why bother even using Scripture then? Is not all Scripture profitable for doctrine? (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Is Scripture something that appeals to only your defense when you say so?



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BTW Jason.
You often quote Jesus words, that if we love him we will obey his commandments.
Could you tell us if you yourself strive to obey each and every literal command of Christ?
When responding, please bear in mind what you wrote in your Initial post in this thread

 

[Kenny'sID]

Then you have come to your personal conclusion.
May I ask?
If a person believes the Christian is under a law of righteousness, in your view, are they depending on observing the law to attain heaven/ be ultimately saved?

I wouldn't know, I just told you I'm not, nor do I know anyone here that is doing that. I think there are some Jews that do, but aside from that, the accusation is merely something OSASr's often pretend their opponents do to make them look bad. It's a devious trick, but not something that surprises me coming from people who go to heaven no matter what they do.

I'm not under the law, not unless you mean God counting us as righteous if we accept and do the requirements God has set before us.

Do me a favor, read the scripture in Mathew on the Sheep an the Goats as a for instance, then tell me if you feel we need to take care of the poor in oerder to make it to heaven? And if so, does that mean you are under the law, because you are doing the works Jesus himself teaches us we must?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Could you tell us if you yourself strive to obey each and every literal command of Christ?

And what would your point be on that, more tricky stuff?

I really would like to know.

 

[CrystalDragon]

My understanding is that once one is saved, they're saved, no matter what. It's very difficult to factor one's behavior into it without it becoming a slippery slope into a works-based salvation.

Salvation brings about the good works, but good works don't bring about (or maintain) the salvation. That's how I've always understood it, anyway.

Would Hitler be saved then? He was raised Catholic.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

BTW Jason.
You often quote Jesus words, that if we love him we will obey his commandments.
Could you tell us if you yourself strive to obey each and every literal command of Christ?
When responding, please bear in mind what you wrote in your Initial post in this thread

Yes, I strive to obey all of the commands of Christ. Are you saying you do not bother to strive at obeying Him?


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