The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[Rajni]

Would Hitler be saved then? He was raised Catholic.

I can't rule anyone out.

Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit (which, in turn, would know the End from the Beginning and would therefore have foreseen Hitler and the like), referred to himself as the worst of sinners, so if Paul can be salvaged, anyone can, apparently.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Salvation brings about the good works, but good works don't bring about (or maintain) the salvation. That's how I've always understood it, anyway.

Then I would suggest you understand the scripture on the Sheep and the Goats.

Jesus made things very clear there.

 

[Rajni]

Then I would suggest you understand the scripture on the Sheep and the Goats.

Jesus made things very clear there.

Based on which of the thousands of denominations' understanding thereof, I wonder?

"Very clear" is right.
Good luck with that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Based on which of the thousands of denominations' understanding thereof, I wonder?

"Very clear" is right.
Good luck with that.

Honestly, that's just a cop out. do you use that one often?

What is not clear to you, maybe I can help?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Many times when I discuss Eternal Security, I hear two different messages. One message says a true Christian is defined by loving Jesus and by being more Christ like. Yet, another message within Eternal Security says you can die in the unrepentant sin of lying, or the sin of unforgiveness, etc. and still be saved.

What doth thou sayeth?


...

I go with the first message the 2nd I don't go with.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So now come the untruths/ lies. That says much!

You say I quote the letter of Scripture without understanding. Your attack is against me and not against the belief here. You focus your attack on me because your argument in Scripture is weak. For one, where did I quote the letter with no understanding? Prove your case with Scripture!

Actually, your reference to the "letter of the Law" is in reference to the Old Testament Law and not all Law.

“who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,” (2 Corinthians 3:6-7).​

I have explained the gospel message to you previously, you ignore what you are shown.

No. You shown your version of the gospel that is not taught in Scripture. Jude 1:4 condemns turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

You claim when Paul states the Christian is not under a law of righteousness, he means non applicable OC law. Though time and time again you have been shown your belief to be false you refuse to accept it

And I have shown you with Scripture that Paul was talking about the Old Law as a Pharisee in Romans 7. We are told to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. We are told that we fulfill that righteous aspect or part of the Old Law by walking after the Spirit.


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[Rajni]

Honestly, that's just a cop out. do you use that one often?

What is not clear to you, maybe I can help?

No, it's a fact. If you've spent as much time on forums like this one as I have, you'd see it.

Thank you for the offer, but only God can help. Apparently we're not supposed to rely on man's wisdom, etc. etc. and so on and so forth.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I wouldn't know, I just told you I'm not, nor do I know anyone here that is doing that. I think there are some Jews that do, but aside from that, the accusation is merely something OSASr's often pretend their opponents do to make them look bad. It's a devious trick, but not something that surprises me coming from people who go to heaven no matter what they do.

I'm not under the law, not unless you mean God counting us as righteous if we accept and do the requirements God has set before us.

Do me a favor, read the scripture in Mathew on the Sheep an the Goats as a for instance, then tell me if you feel we need to take care of the poor in oerder to make it to heaven? And if so, does that mean you are under the law, because you are doing the works Jesus himself teaches us we must?

If you cannot answer my question, I won't answer yours

 

[stuart lawrence]

You say I quote the letter of Scripture without understanding. Your attack is against me and not against the belief here. You focus your attack on me because your argument in Scripture is weak. For one, where did I quote the letter with no understanding? Prove your case with Scripture!

Actually, your reference to the "letter of the Law" is in reference to the Old Testament Law and not all Law.

“who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,” (2 Corinthians 3:6-7).​

No. You shown your version of the gospel that is not taught in Scripture. Jude 1:4 condemns turning God's grace into a license for immorality.



And I have shown you with Scripture that Paul was talking about the Old Law as a Pharisee in Romans 7. We are told to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. We are told that we fulfill that righteous aspect or part of the Old Law by walking after the Spirit.


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The letter that kills was in reference to the law written on tablets if stone/TC, law you accept that is part of NC law!

Paul referred to: thou shalt not covet in rom ch7, law you have stated the Christian is under.

You are very confused Jason

 

[Thedictator]

Eternal Security is another name for Once Saved Always Saved. You cannot change the terms that have already been established. To redefine the term is not a good thing because you have to clarify what you mean (every time you use the term "Eternal Security" so as not to confuse people).


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No it was your side that coopted the Phrase and changed the meaning. Christians have Eternal Security from all outside forces, but if a Christian walks away from God, stops having faith in Jesus Christ, or goes back to living in the world or darkness he has reject salvation and the salvation he once had is no longer there.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, I strive to obey all of the commands of Christ. Are you saying you do not bother to strive at obeying Him?


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Really, you strive to obey all the commands of Christ?.

Well, it's your conscience not mine.

As to your question, the law/ Commandments/teaching of Christ is not fulfilled by striving to obey each and every literal command of Christ, as scripture tells us:

Carry each others burdens( love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ
Gal6:2

However, after producing scripture as you requested, you will simply ignore it and cling to the letter you yourself cannot/do not obey

 

[Kenny'sID]

Thank you for the offer, but only God can help. Apparently we're not supposed to rely on man's wisdom, etc. etc. and so on and so forth.

Oh I see, another cop out. Are you saying you never rely on man's wisdom, or is that just a convenience for the moment?

OK, even though I have no doubt the wisdom thing is not the truth when it comes to not answering, but if you insist, fine, just tell us what part you have a problem with? Or is dodging that your real reason?

If you cannot answer my question, I won't answer yours

Hello? the answer was I wouldn't know, It was a very honest answer, now answer mine, or is this were "cop-outs" start running a muck?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Oh I see, another cop out. Are you saying you never rely on man's wisdom, or is that just a convince for the moment?

OK, even though I have no doubt the wisdom thing is not the truth when it comes to not answering, but if you insist, fine, just tell us what part you have a problem with? Or is dodging that your real reason?



Hello? the answer was I wouldn't know, It was a very honest answer, now answer mine, or is this were "cop-outs" start running a muck?

So if a person lives under a law of righteousness, you don't know if they rely on observing the law to attain heaven/ ultimate salvation?
With respect, you need to study the Bible more and pray for answers

 

[stuart lawrence]

In Romans ch7:7-11 Paul explains from his own personal life, that living under a righteousness if observing the law in regard to: thou shalt not covet resulted in him becoming a worse sinner.
In verses 14-24 of the same chapter he elaborates on his struggle and failure to obey one if the TC/ thou shalt not covet.
So I amazed, anyone can conclude that in rom ch7 paul is speaking of law not applicable to the NC, only the old one

 

[Rajni]

Oh I see, another cop out. Are you saying you never rely on man's wisdom, or is that just a convenience for the moment?

OK, even though I have no doubt the wisdom thing is not the truth when it comes to not answering, but if you insist, fine, just tell us what part you have a problem with? Or is dodging that your real reason?



Hello? the answer was I wouldn't know, It was a very honest answer, now answer mine, or is this were "cop-outs" start running a muck?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, many in the Eternal Security camp justify sins like lying and lusting after women as being minor or small sins to God.
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What would be nice is if you stopped using sin incorrectly as a theological point of difference because OSAS doesn't minimize or condone sin.

You really don't understand the real issues and create your own little riffs to fill space.

How about a little Godly integrity here

 

[Rajni]

Those who seek the assurance of permanent salvation aren’t looking for a license to sin 24/7 – that’s a very worn-out straw-man.

What the assurance of set-in-stone salvation does is to keep one’s walk with the Lord from feeling like a tightrope walk across a flaming chasm where even the slightest misstep sends them hurling into the abyss for all eternity. And believe me, depending which denominational teachings one goes by, it doesn’t take much for one to be gloriously saved one minute and hell’s future firewood the next.

This is God (who is Love) we’re talking about, not some curmudgeonly, vengeful mother-in-law.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Those who seek the assurance of permanent salvation aren’t looking for a license to sin 24/7 – that’s a very worn-out straw-man.

What the assurance of set-in-stone salvation does is to keep one’s walk with the Lord from feeling like a tightrope walk across a flaming chasm where even the slightest misstep sends them hurling into the abyss for all eternity. And believe me, depending which denominational teachings one goes by, it doesn’t take much for one to be gloriously saved one minute and hell’s future firewood the next.

This is God (who is Love) we’re talking about, not some curmudgeonly, vengeful mother-in-law.

Some people can't discuss the theology and in error start creating and supporting untrue arguments.

We need to get this back to discussing theology and scripture, not running off on untrue tangents. Great post.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No, it's a fact. If you've spent as much time on forums like this one as I have, you'd see it.

Thank you for the offer, but only God can help. Apparently we're not supposed to rely on man's wisdom, etc. etc. and so on and so forth.

You are starting to skip questions so read the following very carefully,

You are evading the part that allows you no excuse to cop out. I said you don't have to depend on mans wisdom, simply tell us the problem you have with the sheep and goats scripture. See, you haven't given a reason you cannot do that. No doubt you will come up with one, but I would like to hear it, as it helps make my point.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So if a person lives under a law of righteousness, you don't know if they rely on observing the law to attain heaven/ ultimate salvation?
With respect, you need to study the Bible more and pray for answers

I already answered, I don't do that so I've not given it any thought.

I guess that means you aren't going to answer the question?

I figured.