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Featured The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. THE W


    United States
    correct, and this perfection comes from Christ imputing righteousness onto us. our perfection is Christ and not our ability to never sin again.

    this would actually be the only possible way for us to be perfect like the Father who not only can't and won't sin but has never sinned. we kind of blew that one already, which is why we need Christ's perfection imputed to us as He is the only one who can and has fulfilled that command.

    this seems to be the straw-man you keep attacking.

    there's a difference between telling someone they can go on sinning because of grace(which romans 3:5-8 condemns) and understanding that while you fervently pursue holiness in this life, the LORD isn't going to give you the stiff arm at the gate because "you missed a spot".

    if you don't understand the difference here, you're going to continue to argue against a straw-man on this subject.
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism:

    Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of our Sanctification. It is yet another Biblical doctrine that is commonly misunderstood and or denied amongst Eternal Security Proponents or those who do not believe that “Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From God.” Here is a...

    List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:
    1. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

    2. Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).

    3. Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

    4. GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

    5. Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

    6. Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).

    7. We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1). This is in this life here because verse 2 says, "That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

    8. Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

    9. James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

    10. Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    11. David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).

    12. Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

    13. Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

    14. Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

    15. Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

    16. Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).

    17. Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).

    18. Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

    19. Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

    20. Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

    21. John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

    22. John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

    23. Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

    24. The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

    25. John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).

    26. Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).

    27. Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

    28. Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

    29. Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    30. James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

    31. Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

    32. Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

    33. Paul says, “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1).

    34. Paul says, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul also says, “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

    35. Zacharias says, “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).

    36. Paul says, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:20-23).

    37. Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

    38. Paul says,“Men, brothers, I have conducted-myself with all good conscience before God up to this day” (Acts 23:1 DLNT)

    39. Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).

    40. Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

    41. Paul says, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2).

    42. Paul says, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11).

    43. Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

    44. The author Hebrews says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).

    45. Paul says, “...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27). Jesus says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19). For Jesus says, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).

    46. John says, “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).

    47. Paul says, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    48. Jesus says, “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:10-13). A Multitude of People in Heaven says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.(Revelation 19:7-8). Note: the fine linen that represents the righteousness of the saints is the same wedding garment that the man at the wedding did not have on.

    49. Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

    50. John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

    Real world example:

    An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping. He hoping one day somebody else will stop him.

    If GOD is perfect in all He does, then why cannot GOD perfect a believer while they still live?

    Are they saying they are more powerful than GOD?

    For why would a person want to continue in sin on any level?
    For if a person knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would they not want to take that chance?

    For would not the opposite of Sinless Perfectionism be Sinful Imperfectionism? Is there such a thing as a “sinning saint”? What about a righteous sinner?

    But some will object and say they believe that they are for living righteously. But how much should one live righteously? Are we to live righteously at about 90%? How about 80%? 75%? 20%? Is there a percentage that we do not cross the line at?

    Anyways, here are some more….

    Common Objections to Sinless Perfectionism (With Answers That Resolve them):

    #1. Objection: So if a believer has not reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism, does that mean they are not saved?

    Answer: No. Sinless Perfectionism is merely the goal for a believer’s life (Philippians 3:12). The Scriptures talk about how this is a possible goal for us to achieve while we are still yet alive. But the problem with denying the Bible’s teaching on Sinless Perfectionism is that it suggest that a person's goal or aim is not to try and be perfect before GOD but it is to still hold onto sin on some level (even if it is a sin done on rare occasion). For can a serial killer who comes to Christ still murder as long as he does so every ten years (chocking it up to his will is weak and that even believers sin)? Does not Paul essentially say that we used to be sinners? (Ephesians 2:2-3, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Colossians 3:5-7, Ephesians 4:17-24).

    #2. Objection: So are you sinless?

    Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

    (a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

    Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

    (b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

    Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also the types of sins like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or causing divisions within the body (1 Corinthians 3), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

    (c) Unforgivable sins.

    Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).​

    #3. Objection: I don’t see anyone who has stopped sinning or who is living righteously.

    Answer: First, we are called to live by faith and not by sight. For without faith it is impossible to please GOD. Second, if you lived during Noah’s time in a region that was very far away from Noah, you wouldn’t have been able to see anyone living righteously around you. Yet, the Scriptures say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and the whole world was destroyed for their wickedness as an example to all those who would live ungodly thereafter.

    #4. Objection: It’s self righteousness to want to overcome sin.

    Answer: Is it really? Does not God call us to be holy as He? Also, say a person struggles with the sin of drug abuse or sex addiction outside of marriage. Would you say that a person is being self righteous who wants to overcome these sins? Surely not. Overcoming sin is merely a desire to be closer to GOD and in pleasing Him. People who are self righteous like the Pharisees were criticized by Jesus for not keeping God’s Word. They appeared to others as being righteous, but inwardly they were wicked. Jesus did not say to them that they needed to have a mere belief alone on Him. Jesus told them to clean the inside of the cup.

    #5. Objection: It is impossible to stop sinning.

    Answer: This is simply not true. There are many verses that suggest that a believer can stop sinning. Also, when the disciples asked who can be saved when they found out that rich men cannot be saved, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.” Meaning, that GOD can change the heart of a man (if he is willing to come to Him). Meaning, the LORD can help people to overcome their sin. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (not just on the cross, but in your life, too).

    #6. Objection: Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

    Answer: Well, 1 John 1:8 does not say that a believer will always be abiding in some kind of sin. That is not what it is talking about. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the Law." Breaking a Law is breaking God's Commandments. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves 1 John 1:8 into a past declaration. There are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

    In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

    "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

    In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

    Well, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

    "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

    In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus.

    #7. Objection: Does not Paul say he struggled with sin in Romans 7?

    Answer: Well, in the majority of Romans 7, Paul is recounting the experience of the Israelite or Jew's history with the keeping of the Law. Paul is Jewish and he was a Pharisee, so he also included an account of his own personal struggle in trying to keep the Law (while as a Pharisee before he became a Christian).

    (a) Romans 7:5 deals with Paul and other ex-Law keeper’s struggle (who are now Christian) in trying to keep the Law.

    (b) Romans 7:7-13 Paul speaks from the perspective of Israelite history and experience with Old Testament Law. Paul uses the word “I” in reference to the Israelite receiving of the Law of Moses. Note: This is not the first time Paul uses the word “I” in reference to somebody else’s experience (See Galatians 2:18).

    (c) Romans 7:14-24 speaks of Paul and the other ex-Law-keeper’s own personal struggle (who are now Christian) with trying to obey the Law before knowing Jesus Christ.

    (b) In Romans 7:25, Paul then transitions the conversation that with Jesus Christ he can then be delivered from the body of death that controlled him as a part of his old religious life as a Pharisee and a Jew (See Romans 7:24-25).

    5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands], did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
    6 But now we are delivered from the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments], that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit [i.e. the Commands by Jesus and His followers in the New Testament], and not in the oldness of the letter [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments].
    (Romans 7:5-6).​

    For Romans 8:2 mentions two laws.

    “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

    There is...

    (a) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (i.e. A New Covenant Law).
    Which is walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

    (b) The Law of Sin and Death (i.e. An Old Covenant Law).
    This was the Old Testament Law that could condemn you by capital punishment or with physical death. Hence, why it is called the Law of Sin and Death.​

    In Romans 8:4, obeying the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus helps us to fulfill the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law, which is to love your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

    Side Note:

    Oh, and also Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is clearly speaking from two different perspectives here.

    #8. Objection: Does not Matthew 6:12 tell us to forgive us our debts which is a part of the Lord’s Prayer?

    Answer: Well, I used to think that the Lord’s prayer was a daily prayer for all believers (to be prayed as an outline) over the course of our whole lives. But after examining the Scriptures, this is simply not so. First, of all, it does not say it is a daily prayer. Second, while this prayer can be prayed in a daily manner, it is a prayer for new believers in the faith. It is a starter prayer that helps a new believer to walk uprightly and give glory to GOD and in seeking His will for their life because the disciples asked how should they pray. Forgive us our debts (sins) as we forgive our debtors (i.e. those who sin against us) may not always apply. There may be a day where nobody sins against you. Also, what about verse 13? If we pray not to be led into temptation and ask GOD to deliver us from evil and GOD answers that prayer, are we going to keep praying for GOD to deliver us from evil when He has answered our prayer in being delivered from evil? In other words, it does not make any sense to pray for something that GOD will never give to you in this life.

    #9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

    Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

    For Romans 3:11 says,

    "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
    (Romans 3:11).
    How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

    In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).

    #10. Objection: Does not Ecclesiastes 7:20 say there is not a just man upon earth that does good and sins not?

    Answer: Well, here is what Ecclesiastes 7:20 says in the Good News Translation:

    Ecclesiastes 7:20 GNT
    "There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake."​

    In other words, this is speaking of the fact that a believer may do things that would not be classified as a sin that leads unto death (i.e. the Second Death or the Lake of Fire). Mistakes would fall under the category of hidden or secret faults as mentioned in Psalm 19:12. This is not talking about serious sins that lead unto spiritual death like lying, hating, stealing, murdering, fornicating, and getting drunk, etc.

    Also, this was during the time of the Old Testament, too (See Hebrews 11:40)

    #11. Objection: Does not Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5 teach against Sinless Perfectionism?

    Answer: Well, when we read these types of verses in Scripture, we have to also read James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 to get a balanced view of Scripture. In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about Initial Salvation or how we are ultimately saved (Justification) which is by repentance and a belief in Jesus. James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 are talking about your allowance in letting Jesus to do good works thru your life (i.e. Sanctification or holiness). Salvation is a person named Jesus. So if a person abides in Christ, they are saved and good fruit will be the proof in the pudding that Christ truly lives within them or not.

    #12. Objection: Does not confessing our sins to the LORD in 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 mean we will never be sinless?

    Answer: Having an advocate that we can confess our sins to does mean we trivialize sin or not treat it as seriously. Confessing sins goes hand in hand with forsaking sin (1 John 1:7).

    Yes, even the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee teaches that GOD’s grace is there for us if we do honestly sin, but the other lesson of the parable (that most people miss) is that the pharisee did not even humble himself to confess his sin in the first place. Nowhere does this parable teach that a person will always sin. It is clear from Jesus’s encounters with the Pharisees that they did not repent to GOD of their sins and they were not living righteously. For Jesus called them hypocrites.

    Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to GOD and to forsake their sin. When the people had turned from their wickedness, then GOD had decided to not bring wrath or Judgment upon them.

    What is the point of confession if a person is going to just sin again?

    Can a husband still cheat on his spouse the rest of his life on occasion to his wife as long as he just says he is sorry? Surely not. It is the same with GOD. For GOD takes certain sins very seriously. If a person minimizes sin by saying to themselves that they are just going to sin at some point in the future because they cannot help it, then they are condoning sin (Which is wrong). In fact, GOD would have to agree with a person's thinking that it is okay for them to sin again in the future with the idea that the LORD is going to save them. But can GOD agree with sin? Surely not. While GOD can be merciful and while He can forgive a lot, if a person goes into their walk with GOD thinking they are just bound to sin against Him at some point in the future, then that is exactly what they are going to do. They have already made up their mind to sin (Which is wrong).

    In conclusion, I will leave the reader with the following verse.

    “An unthinking person believes everything, but the prudent one thinks before acting.” (Proverbs 14:15 ISV).

  3. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    I love the way Jason repeatedly insists rom7:7-13 refers to OC law. But then he also insists, under the NC coveting can condemn you.
  4. THE W


    United States
    you're two real world examples are yet again attacks on a straw-man argument in saying that we're encouraging someone to continue in sin. Rather we understand that in pursuit of perfection there will be stumbles.

    your treatment of romans 7 is simply inaccurate. this chapter is about our relationship to the law in how it condemned us because we broke it and then about the struggle between the two natures that exist in all believers, the new man in Christ and the old man in the flesh. Paul had this struggle and concluded in chapter 7 that in and through Christ we win. chapter 8 tells us that no charge can be brought up against the elect of God(including the doctrine of sinless perfection).

    your plethora of verses are speaking against backsliding into a sinful lifestyle and not stumbling on the road to holiness. Jesus told the man in sin to not go back to his life of sin which referred to the sin he was charged for, not to never commit any type of sin ever again or something bad will happen. same for the woman caught in adultery. the phrase "sin no more" is Jesus letting the woman know that what she was doing was indeed sin and that she needed to turn away from a life of adultery. again, not telling her that she must never commit another sin ever again in her life.

    as far as the 144,000. unless you believe these are the only people who will receive eternal life(which revelation 7:9-17 suggests otherwise) I don't see the significance of this reference.
  5. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

    United States
    There's actually a danger in glorifying sin by magnifying it too much.
    We aren't too much for God to handle.
  6. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

    The Narrow gate is Christ alone. The wide gate is anything other than Christ, including Christ plus our works.

    In no way did I say you can take either the wide or the narrow gate. If you read what I wrote, Christ is the only way. I cannot depend on me in anyway, it is Christ that saves me. I give up myself to follow Him. You say this is easy, I would disagree. I have to trust in Him completely, not in what I do. When everything I am is saying, you must do. Yet, it is Christ that has fulfilled the law for me. It is His righteousness that is imputed onto me. His blood has washed me clean, there is no spot, no blemish.

    The problem is, you think there are good people and bad people. God's word says we are all wretched. It says in our best state we are nothing but vanity. The Bible says there is only one that is good, That is God.

    Don't mistake the liberty we have in Christ for us believing we have a license to sin. We do not. Let me give you an example. In America we can legally kill a baby in a mothers womb. My wife and I are free to do this. Yet for the love of God and the love of our neighbor we will not. Just because I'm free to do it I don't do it out of love.

    The Bible says, the ones that are blessed are the ones God does not impute sin onto.

    It is God that saves us. It is God that washes us clean. It is God's great mercy that each of us desperately needs.

    We all sin, whether we are Christian or not. We all fall short. The same thing that saves me, saves others...Christ alone.

    In Christ
  7. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    Christ is a proponent of the way that the narrow gate/acting right leads to, just as God is, just as we should be, but this is talking about "ways" ways we live, ways we act.

    The scripture refers to "ways".

    I've shown you the terms "ways" used there. The wide is a "way, and the narrow is a "way". Reread it, it's right there. :) Can you now please show me where Christ mentions his own name/self at all in the scripture? He says "ways", he doesn't say me alone, or Christ alone..

    The narrow "way" ...you tow the line, the wide "way".. you do what you want, and to say we can do as we want and still be saved makes that scripture null or Christ a liar.

    I'm now wondering if the purpose to the way you word that is that the narrow way is "Christ alone" so as long as we say we believe in Christ, whatever we do, sin or whatever, it will be considered the narrow Gate? Is that correct?

    Tell me, who teaches these twists? Is it a denomination in general, a certain preacher/preachers?
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    Of course I do. Read the following verse and tell me, in the end
    God won't consider the ones who does those things as a lifestyle, bad people, and those that don't good, or at least good enough. He's very clear what will happen to those who do them, or will you call, them "good" people still and deny the fact they will go to Hell if they do those bad things?

    Here is the verse, and if I must explain, the unrighteous are the bad and the not unrighteous are the good. Meaning there is in reality, NO "problem" as you call it with perceiving people as good or bad. The real problem is you trying to say that is irrelevant, or trying to hide the truth, or that bad is just fine because there is no good or bad, when bad is not just fine as the following more than just indicates.

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    Sure we are all wretched, but you are trying to make that mean that doing wretched things are fine, while as you can see, the sins in the scripture are wretched enough to send us to Hell if we aren't careful.

    Please stop teaching a Happy little, just believe in Jesus and don't worry about it.

    Believe in Jesus and act right to prove you believe in him.

    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  9. Christian Counseling Help

    Christian Counseling Help New Member

    Actually, I'd say this is one of or THE most important subject, and difficult to pinpoint. I can turn around now and quote the passage that you just need to utter the words and accept Jesus as saviour, and you will be saved. Then quote Paul that faith without deeds is dead, or quote him where he talks about self-righteousness and our acts alone do not save us.

    so i think this is the double edged sword talked about, or the very narrow path, broad is the path to destruction. i imagine that steering slightly left of the path or the Way might be to allow indulgences and bath lightly in sin, depending on Jesus as our saviour, while straying slightly to the right might be going the legalistic route of self-righteousness, that your own acts save you. i believe that the very narrow pearly gates is what Buddha attained, finding the Kingdom of Heaven from within, and this is basically the same message as Jesus. I'm not proclaiming myself to be a Buddhist but I once attended a famous meditation camp for foreigners in Thailand and read a small book written by the founder, who got sick of all these Christians ranting about their precious little line that all they need to do is utter certain words and they shall be saved. (Let us not forget "Many will call on the name of the Lord but not be saved".) So he read the bible and then wrote this little book. Very eye opening. He used the word stupid many times, referring to both the common Buddhist believer who believes they are doing something by putting a little bowl of rice and incense sticks on their little temple in their little backyard every morning, so big fat Buddha can climb up that little ladder and have breakfast?? Or Christians who drop to their knee, wave their hand in a cross, put some money in a basket, say hail Marry thirty times, put on their Sunday best once a week, etc etc. Again, entirely missing the point. He quoted many lines from both Jesus and Buddha and explained very wisely that they are the same message. A divine message that most people completely miss, because they don't want to spend the time to get it. they are too busy managing their lives (the thorns around the farmer's seeds) to get into proper depth, so they hang a cross up on their wall and pray to that. much easier than dealing with sincere issues of the heart...
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    How do you know the good guys from the bad guys when you watch a movie, or turn on the news, or go out into the world? Is it by their beliefs or is by their actions?

    The author of Hebrews says, "...he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9). Paul says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1). This lines up with what John says in his first epistle; For John says, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

    So this is the REAL imputation of Jesus that one needs in order to have Christ's blood. A person needs to walk in the light of Christ. Seeking to turn Christ's grace into a license to sin (on some level) reminds me of the glass half empty kind of example. If I show a person a glass of water that is half empty, there are people who always choose to see the glass as half empty and not as half full. They are always going to see grace in a bad way (by justifying sin) and not in a good way (as a means to overcome their sin). They will seek to turn God's Grace into a license to justify sin (or immorality); For Jude says,

    "For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4 NIV).

    How do they deny Jesus?
    They deny Jesus by a lack of works.
    For Paul says,
    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    But let's just say that Jude 1:4 is talking about a certain group of believers who denied the deity of Christ like those John describes in his first epistle. It still does not change anything. Jude still condemns the idea that we cannot be ungodly people who turn the grace of God into a license for immorality.

    Jesus says to certain professing believers that did many wonderful works to depart from him because they worked "iniquity" or "sin."

    "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
    (Matthew 7:23).

    Jesus's point here was not "Once Saved Always Saved." No, no. Most certainly not!

    For Jesus continues to drive home the point of obedience so as to be right with Him by saying this,
    26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).

    In fact, Jesus says he will one day send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things (including people) that offend (sin) and them which do iniquity (intense sin or lawlessness) and cast them into the furnace of fire (Lake of Fire).

    41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
    (Matthew 13:41-42).

    For the true grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, and godly in this present world.

    11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."
    (Titus 2:11-12).

    So it's not cheap grace.
    It's not greasy grace.
    It's a type of grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world.

    What kind of righteousness?

    "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
    (1 John 3:7).

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

    For we are to continue in the grace of God.

    "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God." (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

    We need to be persuaded to CONTINUE in the grace of God.
    The grace of God is not forced upon a person for all time because they made a one time decision to accept Jesus or because they have a mere belief on Him as their Savior (While they live like the devl or while they sin on occasion).

    I mean, stop and think for a moment.

    What if the president pardoned every single criminal in the United States?
    What if the president even pardoned their future crimes?
    Can you imagine the chaos that would follow?
    It would be total disorder and not order.
    There are laws of punishment set in place to keep peace and order.
    Why you would think God would be any different is beyond me.
    But go ahead and believe something that is contrary to Scripture and real life if that makes you feel better.
    It just would not simply be true.

    Side Note:

    Oh, and as for Romans 7-8:

    Paul says,

    3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

    So Jesus's sacrifice was so that we could live holy. We fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. by loving our neighbor which is a part of the fruits of the spirit of love).

    "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Romans 8:6).

    Jesus sacrifice was so that we should live holy and righteous (See Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14).

    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  11. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Christ is the way, like I said. Christ is the truth, like I said.

    I've answered a few of your questions, answer one of mine.
    Tell me friend, Biblical, how good is good enough to get into heaven?

    In Christ
  12. THE W


    United States
    having fun pummeling that straw-man?

    romans 7...yeah. we go from those who did not care about holiness to those who eagerly pursue it through Spirit of God placed in us. but you say that the one who pursues holiness but stumbles is carnally minded....if you insist.
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Paul is talking about the OLD Law in Romans 7 and not all law. Please read Romans 7:1 and Romans 7:6. Paul and the other followers of Christ were still giving us laws or commands to follow. Why would they do that if it was all "Once Saved Always Saved" type greasy grace? Paul himself said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). John says that one of Christ's commands is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So if keeping Law has no bearing to our salvation than we have to assume that 1 John 3:23 is included in that, too.

    As for your mention of Romans 8:33: Well, Romans 8:35-39 does not mention "Sinless Perfection." So you would be adding to God's Word here. In fact, two things you will not find in Romans 8:35-39. Yourself and your sin. These are things in the Bible that are very clear that can separate a believer from God. From the beginning of the Garden we see this concept. Yet, the devil still likes to cast his lie out there, "Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

    Not true at all. John told the man he healed that if he were to sin again a worse thing were to come upon him (John 5:14). Jesus says if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). So I really do not see the greasy grace idea being pushed by Jesus here.

    The 144,000 shows that you CAN be perfect (Which the majority of Christians like yourself deny).
    I am also not saying that a believer has to be perfect so as to be saved, either.
    Perfection is dealing with minor faults and it is not serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, idolatry, theft, and drunkenness, etc.).

    Revelation 7:9-17 does not say that this robe is a cloak that covers our ongoing sinning.
    That is something you have to add to the text that is not there.
    Again, 1 John 1:7 says that you have to WALK in the light of Christ so that the blood of Jesus cleanses you of all sin.

    "It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." (Revelation 19:8 NASB).

  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    While I do enjoy being in God's Word, I do not find it fun or funny to tell fellow brethren about the dangers of Eternal Security. If there is one thing I find more evil, it is that dreaded doctrine.

    But Paul is clearly talking about his struggle with sin as being an unregenerate man because he calls himself a wretched man in Romans 7.
    Are you telling me that men who pursue holiness and men who being conformed to the likenness of Christ are also wretched men?
    That is a contradiction dear sir.
    This is the contradicition or the two fold message of Eternal Security.
    One message says you are conforming to Christ's image.
    The other message says you can sin and still be saved (on some level) which is a doctrine for immorality.
    Yes, Christians can honestly stumble into sin; This usually happens in the early walk whereby they need to mature. But a believer will in time mature and overcome serious sin in this life.

    A drunkard can pursue being sober, but if he keeps drinking all the time, and says he is sober even while he drinks, he is not really pursuing in being sober correctly.

    Think of a person striving to overcome their sin of alcoholism and relate it to the Eternal Security Proponent who seeks to justify their belief that they can sin with the thinking they are saved.

    I mean, you can say "straw man" all you like. But that does not prove anything. That would be like hitting the disagree button mindlessly without showing how I am actually wrong.

    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  15. THE W


    United States
    keep on pummeling...

    this refers to backsliding into his old life if he goes back to frequent drinking. this wouldn't be stumbling.
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    So a believer can still get drunk on occasion and sleep with prostitutes and still be saved while doing so?
    What about other sins?

  17. THE W


    United States

    are the people in rev 7:9-17 in heaven or not? if so, your theory of sinless perfection is disproven as the point of this passage is these people are with the LORD in paradise along with the 144k despite not being sinlessly perfect in the first life.
  18. THE W


    United States
    as a pursued lifestyle, no.
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    As for another poster's comment about Romans 7:14-24:

    Paul is talking from his perspective as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. He describes his struggle with sin while trying to be able to keep the Old Law that includes certain NT Commands (that are still binding for us believers today). Paul's point is not that we are dead to the Law of coveting whereby we are free to not worry about coveting anymore because we have a mere belief on Jesus to save us. Paul says elsewhere, "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." (Ephesians 5:5).

    Paul's point is that while as a Pharisee (who strived to obey the Old Law) he could not do it because he did not have Jesus in his life yet to overcome sin.

    "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

    That is why Paul is thanking Jesus at the end of Romans 7.
    For in Romans 8:1 it says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK after the Spirit and not after the flesh. If you are teaching that a believer can sin and still be saved one is not walking after the Spirit because they are making others to think they can walk after the flesh (sin).

  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Revelation 19:8 says that the fine linen the saints wore was the righteous acts or deeds of the saints.
    This of course would be by Jesus doing the good work through them because Jesus lives inside of them.
    So yeah, you can say it is the righteousness of Christ.
    For Jesus saves not only in Justification but in Sanctification, too.
    Please see Romans 13:14.

    Jesus is the source of our salvation (See 1 John 5:12).
    No Jesus and no salvation.